Bliev

Although I like this theory, I think we're probably all getting a little punch-drunk with our cosmere connections...this quest is going to be a central one to this book, and it's hard to imagine that Brandon will make a major character from Mistborn a major character in SA in Book 4. Plus, Mraize implies to shallan that she might recognize Thaidakar, and neither the reader nor Shallan should recognize Kelsier. I admit that the idea that a cog shadow (investiture) that escaped a planet would be the person who knows the secret to get investiture off planet is a solid one. But I don't think the timeline squares, anyways. BOM is probably after or concurrent with ROW. I don't think Kelsier could have been spending time on Roshar while he's also workingwiththe Southern Scadrians.

I think it would be completely within what we know of Jasnah's character to have a FWB relationship. Those sorts of things can be very difficult for women who don't trust easily, so if she trusts him, she might enjoy it. But that's only if she has the inclination and we've seen no evidence of any romantic inclination on her part toward anyone. I also honestly don't know that Brandon has it in him to write casual sexual flings into his books. He's so pure. I think it's more likely that (a) society can't imagine a situation where a man and woman would consort together so closely sans romance, (b) both Jasnah and Wit find it wryly amusing to thwart societal expectations so they lean into it, (c) it serves Jasnah by keeping suitors away from her who are seeking power, and (d) it serves Wit by letting him learn about soul casting from a very powerful person (less risky if the soulcaster is your friend!).

This is largely true, I think. Chattel slavery is/was a unique sort of evil, and that doesn't seem to be what the humans face on Roshar. The singer slavery was more akin to it, and that has been overturned now. They are in the middle of a global war for their very existence and in total economic and social upheaval. It makes sense that in remaking the world, a ruler might seek to do so in a fairer way. There is no better time (see, for instance, the plans for reconstruction post civil war in the US, the social safety net put into place in Europe after WW2, etc.), and there are definitely worse times. I doubt we will see Jasnah truly struggle in this right now because her POVs are not central to the plot, but it seems that she is thinking about remaking the world according to the ethical considerations she holds, and she may be less concerned with what a noble in Jah Kaved might say about it. Whether she succeeds or not is likely outside of the realm of this book (or the first 5 in general) because it will take decades to reconstruct Roshar if they are able to survive the war. What it does serve as, however, is a pertinent line in the sand for our favorite slave-cum-radiant and the erstwhile Listener who is trying to learn how to be a Radiant. I doubt Jasnah's success or failure will be at all known or important here--rather her positions will set up important plot points for the more central POV characters. Edit: it's also a critical nugget of character for her. Jasnah is an enigma. Purposefully so. We see her in action with Shallan in WOK, very rarely in WOR, and in conflict with Kaladin and in battle in OB. So far the major plot points for her has been in educating Shallan and setting up her journey to the Shattered Plains, discovering secret info in Shadesmar, clashing with Kaladin, showing Renarin that his future sight is fallible, demonstrating what a level 4 radiant can do when a perpendicularity is near, and now showing that she is a benevolent leader, and not just a harsh one. I don't know that we need to know much else about her yet until we get into her head and learn her true struggles and insecurities. Which we will probably have to wait a decade for. lol

As most real world leaders go, she seems to piece together her own strategy based on multiple philosophical streams. I'm sure she's read all of the Alethi versions of the philosophers of old--all women of course--and has created her own approach. I also think it's unlikely that Wit is pulling any strings with her. Jasnah is not easily manipulated and I'd be disappointed if that was the way it went. Although surely many Alethi might think it to be true with their antiquated ways of thinking. I think he's informing her knowing that she's logical--both to amuse himself by seeing what she does with shocking information and also to see if he can get her on board with his goals. I'm sure he's spent millennia looking for a wit as quick as his own. :-)

OMG I LOVE THIS SO MUCH. Yes. This is amazing. ETA: Also, this would square--Mraize may think that Wit is just a "normal" lightweaver and thus think he's fascinating, when really he's WAY more than that.

Do you think he did this on purpose? Dropped Navani's theory/rumor there because he knows how his fandom gets about shipping? Because it really seems like it was teed up beautifully for these boards. (And I know I am way too Very Online now because my response to half of the comments I'm reading is popping into my head as memes.)

I didn't mean to imply he's THE big bad, but A big bad. Double crossing our Radiants and leading them into Odium's clutches so brazenly, for some ends that we do not understand as anything other than "He has his own reasons" would set him up as a major villain in a way that even Taravangian has not been set up to be. AT least we understand his motives. I do not put it past Hoid playing the double cross as you say it, but for it to happen in the front five, before most readers are really cosmere aware and many are basically like Navani in terms of their perceptions of him (i.e., he's weird, and seems like he knows more than he's letting on) doesn't square with me. I agree with you that there is more to Hoid that we like to see--I think too many see him as a protagonist with good motives, and I think that's a stretch--but I do not think him being an ally of Odium is likely at all at this point. HOWEVER, I could see him trying to help them shatter Odium, so he could get a piece. Or kill Rayse and let someone else ascend, and he gets a sliver in the process. That I could see.

But wouldn't it be simpler to find a voidspren or interact with Sja-Anat? In what world would Odium just give Hoid a sliver of himself to be used in a way that is surely contrary to what Odium wants? It seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I surely don't trust Hoid's intention with Roshar, and I am certain he would indeed watch it burn to get what he wants. But I think this is more likely that he's gotten himself involved in things like Brandon says he sometimes tends to do, and it's not a plan to trade the Radiants for Odium's power. I also would find it strange that Hoid would play such a central role as a "Big Bad" at this part of the narrative. So far Brandon seems content at letting him and Vasher just be "weird", but to make his quest central to the plot for Roshar seems...off.

OH, and did anyone else catch that Jasnah would go to Makabak herself if the war went there? This aligns with the goal to lure "the queen and the bond smith" out of Urithiru. Edited to add: @I Am A Fish agreed. perhaps she doesn't live. This book being "eshonai's" book is demonstrative of that idea too. But the fact that her flashbacks are book 10 suggests her cosmere awareness, given that book 10 is likely VERY cosmere centric in its implications.

Agreed. Jasnah as book 10 adds credence to this too. She knows more than she says, and bc we rarely get a POV from her, we don't know what she knows. She is logic before all else, and so if she has become more Cosmere aware, then surely that is factoring into her strategy. I can honestly say it's better for Roshar to have Jasnah at the helm than Dalinar though. Their leadership styles are very different, but very well suited to each task.

I don't think that's right. Wit said that Rayse would burn the world down if he knew where he was. I think the only thing saving him from that now is that he's in Urithiru. If a spren is all Wit needs to "accumulate power", he doesn't need to ally with Odium, who despises him. He would just need a voidspren or perhaps a corrupted spren via Sja-Anat. While I agree that Wit is only a useful ally when your goals align, I do not think he will serve that sort of pivotal purpose yet in the story.

Yes, this is huge. It would be a watershed moment for our reticent Last Listener to envision a world free from slavery of any kind, FREEDOM if I may?? Willshapers as liberators. I think we have found Venli's plot line. Timbre wants her to capture a radiant...but what if he next oath is about liberation?

Boy, I have to say, I would *LOVE* a Wit/Jasnah fling. Just for funsies. I don't think Brandon has the "casual fling without any strings attached" in him though. Jasnah, as pragmatic as she is, surely would if she had the inclination and felt safe enough to engage, but my guess is that there's no actual relationship between them save information sharing and ally ship. But I'm having fun imagining this one. So much wit. So much snark.

Navani wouldn't even know to ask. And she's downright intimidated by her daughter. Jasnah isn't the type to supply unnecessary information. My guess is that she'd tell Navani if she asked, but she doesn't.

I love how if a woman breathes near Kal, it's a ship, but there are actual rumors about Jasnah and Wit and the fandom is all HOLD ON LET US GET ALL THE FACTS PLEASE. I love this place! lol *heart eye emoji* In terms of the chapter. Info dump extraordinaire. I love how he's just ....giving us this info. It's amazing. Aluminum, Shin, God King, Dustbringer revolts, Taravangian, Wit, Heralds, Jezrien. Wow.

Totally agreed that there are likely multiple influences at work. I just took issue with the idea that Gavilar was "working for" Odium at that time, as opposed to perhaps being influenced in some way via an unmade. I can agree on that.

Don’t we have a WOB that states that gavilar was on the same bondsmith path as Dalinar? That would definitely set aside the idea that he was working for Odium, though I’ve considered the idea of a potential unmade influence.

@Karger you make excellent points here. I think given this evidence, it suggests a voidspren. or a Fused. The strange song Rlain had never heard makes me think of the songs that Venli couldn't understand that the 9 were humming. It would make sense that the perfect gem might have been needed for transport from Braize--maybe a less than perfect "house" would exacerbate connection issues and make it harder to get something off world? It would explain how Gavilar thinks this is a singer "god" and also why the perfect gem would be what Gavilar wants to keep away from the secret societies on Roshar?

I actually agree with this. I think it's unlikely that he would use that Breath in this set of books, and it squares with his Reddit annotations that he's trying to make Vasher kind of "weird guy does weird things" but not that you have to understand what he's doing to understand the plot. I think there'd need to be more specific overlap for that to be a major plot point, and Brandon seems like he's not willing to do that direct crossover yet.

I do not think he trusts Dalinar. Does he care about the broader fight with Odium? Is he more Taravangian-esque in his focus on "his" people, other Rosharans be damned? I think that he's a risk, and he might have a plan in mind, but I think he'll be won over, and he's a reminder to the Radiant forces that there are real people, doing real things, suffering real damage that they have to account for. And maybe for Dalinar that his growth is not yet finished. On Reddit, Brandon said this: Dalinar may have stood up to Odium, and may have decided to lay himself bare as defiance, but he did not have the courage to look his sons in the eye and tell them what he did to their mother. So there is still growth there. And I doubt he is spending much time feeling the weight of the burden that folks like the Mink--and even Lirin!--still bear every day. Maybe generals can't afford to think like that in the midst of war. But those stories are still critical. And they can create rifts and cracks that need addressing.

I really like your linkages here. And I'd be okay if Vasher's intent was to heal Kaladin or another Radiant in a critical moment using his divine breath. I think there's definitely a reason that Brandon has said what he said in this chapter about Vasher's mentality, and about "losing his memory" and how he feels about it. I think the understanding could be Roshar-related in this moment, but also could have a larger Cosmere impact, particularly if it serves to bring the players on Roshar further into the full-Cosmere battles that I predict will be the focus of the Back 5, beyond Roshar alone. @Malim I agree that Vasher/Nightblood are "trump cards" from Endowment, similar to how it seems Cultivation is arming many possible options for her cause. Both of them seem to have better future sight than some other shards, which is interesting. I wonder if they see the future with more certainty, or, similar to Renarin's glass visions, they just see more possible futures and so can plan better? It would be an interesting WOB.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot since this morning. I wonder a couple of things. We know (warbreaker spoilers) Zahel bristles at this in this chapter—implying he does not yet know his own pre-return history. His intent definitely seems scholarly in nature. And I wonder if his fossil is a hint. Wild speculation as I lay in bed trying to keep my phone from waking up my toddler: his intent is related to broader cosmere knowledge. He is in fact exactly where he is supposed to be, as he’s learning about the worlds that exist. He has an ancient fossil that must predate the shattering. What does he know of it? Adonalsium was up to something preshattering...maybe that’s the knowledge that he’s set out to find so he can play a role in putting it all back together one day. The fossil seems major Easter egg to me. Some thing that will come back to be a symbol of something he is trying not to think about, but can’t stop thinking about. probably not. But it’s what I wondered about.

Yes, I like this idea, gripped by an unmade. Also important that the Heralds knew that Gavilar was to be killed that night--fortune? or were they in on Taravangian's plot? Insider knowledge of the early beginnings of the Diagram, maybe? I have vacillated back and forth about whether I think Gavilar is still kicking it. The role of an unmade here makes me think maybe not. I wondered before why the SOH would want to bring the void bringers back--to bring glory back to the Vorin church and to bring the heralds back. Gavilar obviously knew the Heralds were already back, and was still working with the SOH to bring back the void bringers. Why? What did he stand to gain? He told Navani that he would be immortal--who told him that? And yet, he still wanted Dalinar to reform the KR. Why? So many questions.

SQQUUUUEEEEEEEEEE This is the best ever. Yay! I love this so much. I'm all aflutter. I'll say for my contribution to this thread, my husband made it through 1.5 Mistborn books, because he loves me so. And then, when he could read no more, he graciously let me SPOIL EVERYTHING AND TELL HIM ALL THE THINGS and it was glorious. BrandoSando can bring us all together. lol

I really need a calendar invite for this. I will almost certainly forget. So figure out the time and I'll pencil it in. lol