Bliev

You know I think there’s something to the idea that Adolin will be something different when he heals her, not quite Radiant. And I like that. But I’ve come around to the idea that I want allllll the Radiants. I think i changed my mindset that this is a different sort of magic, and theyre in a war, and I want more magical warriors and not fewer (i.e. superhero style). But I think it’s a delicate trade off of viewpoints, for sure.

I agree with you on the Dalinar connection requirement based on the Syl interlude. I don't think Adolin can do it himself. But I think the spren could have kept it from their unbonded brethren if they so chose. Agree to disagree on this possibility. But really have no Ryshadium in this race. hehe

I’ve always felt this too—that they were in it together. Seeing how close the spren bond is, I can’t imagine they didn’t discuss it with their spren. They couldn’t have planned it and hidden it! I also think that maybe maya’s the Envoy that goes with Adolin and Shallan to talk to the Honorspren, to explain what the Recreance really ways. (I’m envisioning her like the old woman in Titanic telling her story lol)

I mean, I am not narratively wedded to any specific outcome, except one that feels right for the path Shallan goes down, which is unclear to me at this point and I'm excited to find out where she goes. But I can absolutely envision a satisfying ending for me that includes a self-aware Shallan living with Adolin (oh please please please don't die Adolin!) at the end of Book 5, with Veil and Radiant still talking with her in her head, and agreeing that they will both be there for her if she needs them, but they want to let her live her life. And they rarely--if ever--come back out to play any more. But they aren't integrated. Rather, they're still a part of her life, just not in the same way. So she never does the things Veil did; she never acts like Radiant. She's still the "OG" Shallan, just settled and well.

That is one possibility for sure. It does make me think: Adolin is being this great friend and partner, right? In tune with their needs and wanting to help them. Are Shallan and Kaladin reciprocating that with him? Do they just think he’s fine because he’s always acting fine? Because I’m an Adolin and we often look and act fine but we are not always fine. Lol because I’d think that would be something to be shared among close friends—your deadeye sword telling you her name and trying to save your life.

I like this interpretation. I just scanned that scene in OB and I think Kal has already fallen into the sea of beads before that part, so he probably didn’t see it. So maybe Adolin didn’t tell him? but Adolin does use her name and her have to have explained that I think. It’s definitely curious.

One thing these first few chapters have definitely done for me is make me excited to see her journey and the choices he decides to make. I love when I feel there are multiple paths that could reasonably be taken and be satisfied with the story. I feel like it’s going to be really well written.

With all due respect, I am not telling anyone how to think. I’m asking them to not write, or say, something they may think, because it could be hurtful to some folks who share in our mutual love of the cosmere. My apologies if it comes across as commandeering. I love this space for its inclusiveness, and I don’t want people to feel they are excluded for who they are. That’s all.

I thought at first that it was a ruse (see some of my earlier chapter reactions), but after chapter 11, I'm not so sure. She doesn't seem attached to him in any way, and I don't ship Kal with anyone bc the poor boi needs to live a bit, but I do think she's genuinely fascinated by him. I think this is the first time she's fought without having the hated Heralds as her nemeses, and a human that actually embodies what Honor *should* be, has struck her interest. (Importantly, I also want to say that I think particularly associating her in a malen body as a reason to be disgusted by the ship to be unnecessary. You can make the argument that she is a monstrosity fighting for Odium, which makes her a "disgusting" match to Kal, but the type of body she has seems irrelevant to that descriptor, and could be interpreted as hurtful for some in our group. IMHO)

I think we are all in agreement that Shallan needs to increase her self awareness and stop lying to herself about her past or who she is. I think we disagree about whether her DiD is incompatible with self awareness and thus progress as a Radiant. I believe that it’s not incompatible, that having alters does not preclude her from growing and embracing her truth. Others seem to think that having alters at all precludes her from awareness, such that dealing with her trauma will necessarily rid her of the need for multiple personalities. so we agree on the basic premise of progression, but disagree on what that progress will entail of her.

@Wax I wouldn’t at all rate Jasnah as high on extroversion. Adolin yes, jasnah, no. Also, a .17 correlation is less than 4% variance in sexual activity, and non-causal, so I think it’s more than a bit speculative. The fashion stuff is not really backed up by research either. just staying textual, I think she’s never shown any sexual interest in anyone of any gender or species, so ace is a reasonable guess for me for her.

Oooh, I think there are multiple things here to address. First, do we think that someone is "half baked" as a Radiant if they don't reach level 5? Very few ever do, right? I know for story's sake, we want to see that progression, but are they failures if they don't? Second, how would living at Level 3 or 4 forever and then dying make Pattern deadeyed? Wouldn't she have to betray him to do that? Third, yes, it is a game, you're right--one filtered through our own perceptions of Shallan's situation for sure. I happen to not think that her personalities are lies. I think it is a lie if she believes she is not all of them, or they are not her. That's indeed an issue she must address and stop lying about to herself. But that's one reason I see "the three" as progress--admitting they exist and having them all interact as she does is a step toward that self-actualization--but I don't *necessarily* believe that full reintegration is necessary for her to progress or be well. I don't think that having dissociative identity disorder prevents her progression ipso facto. Just makes it harder. Just like Kal having depression doesn't prevent him progressing in his order, just makes it harder. And I don't think he'll have to be "healed" to reach level 5 either.

I agree with this. The integration among the three is progress. And she's not lying to anyone about having multiple personas, which is progress too. She seems to have maxed out and leveled off, but I think she's leaps and bounds where she was at the end of OB. Agreed re: her inability to deal with trauma. But it doesn't follow that dealing with the trauma will "heal" her DiD, nor that it's necessary to reintegrate for her to function and be well. I also don't agree that the personas are lies. I'd rather say that they're all truths. They're all her, so she's not pretending at all. She's just unable to be them all at the same time. What lie that IS hindering her progress, imho, is the lie that she's "fine". She's not. And that's the dangerous one. But I don't think she's "not fine" because of her personas, I think she's "not fine" because she's still dissociating from her past continually instead of facing it.

Agreed. Shallan has progressed from where she was. That doesn't mean that she (a) doesn't have farther to go, or (b) isn't at risk of backsliding. But even Radiant says that the other potential "unformed" personalities are waiting to see if "three" can work. That means that it currently is "working", but not that it will forever. I think Shallan as three personalities forever can work, actually, though I'm probably in the minority here. What is at issue is not the personalities per se, but the underlying trauma she needs to address and take responsibility for her lies/truths. She hasn't done that yet, which threatens her growth as a Radiant on the one hand, and her mental stability on the other. If she's not lying anymore, and she's able to function with the "three" then I don't see it as an issue. If she's no longer functional and dissociating more? That's a problem.

I'll have to revisit--my memory was that he was doing so only under duress haha. But I agree overall, looking back, it fits him well.

You know, I hadn't connected him to Heyer in that way, which is surprising given my penchant for Regency romance novels (and my love of JAFF). I do wonder if he's quite the perfect archetype since he's not avoiding his "romantic" responsibility per se (which is how I often see that character--the reluctant lover who is dashing and chivalrous to all), but his likability, wealth, attractiveness, loyalty, and privilege is definitely Corinthian in nature. I suppose we could also connect him to the aristocracy in that Regency way, and talk about his roguish avoidance of responsibility in his declining the King role... Yes, five stars. I like.

My guess is that the pub scene is close to the same time as Venli in her room with the other Singers, before Leshwi descends the steps. I think the next chapter will link us up with Leshwi's realization. I do think it's not without reason that Leshwi's reaction was Odium-related, and that the Radiants wouldn't know what it was right away, or that it was anything. They're a lot more dispersed and separate than the centralized Odium forces with the Fused connected to Odium the way they are.

I like this...and combined with maybe a little dab of Bondsmith connection??

Yes! It’s almost an allegory right? The dead eyes are dead because of a severing of a cognitive/spiritual connection, not because of a physical wound. There is likely something beneath the surface that has to be identified, reckoned with, and fixed to bring a deadeye “back”, even if now they are not able to bond, they are still “alive” again. Sounds familiar. How did Adolin tell Kaladin and the others about Maya’s name? He heard it told to him. So they must know that she spoke?

I’m so glad others read it this way! It definitely feels like Veil is bi or pan in the way she interacted with Adolin in the pub. I’d say that veil is Shallan at her more uninhibited, but not an undisciplined id—more of who Shallan imagines she could be if she were unrestrained by the culture in which she was raised.

I KNOW I AM SO SORRY TO PUT IT INTO THE UNIVERSE. I am trying to pre-cope with it which is my way. I will say all the bad things so I can maybe be more prepared when it happens. I am a super hype Adolin fangirl, so it hurts me just as much I promise. (I would love to be wrong and considering my track record probably will be, haha.) ETA: we could always get a win-win where Adolin chooses to go, Kal has to accept it (thus saying his 4th oath) and Adolin re-awakens Maya in the process, which saves him, which would be great, right?

I love this analogy to the prodigal son. nicely done. My point was mostly that it was the Shallan persona that didn't tell Adolin, and it was Radiant who actually told Kaladin. So it stands to reason that Adolin was also told by Veil or Radiant (probably the more responsible Radiant) that things ain't that great in Shallan-land.

Yep. Agreed. And I have to say I LOVE Adolin's answer to Kaladin's exhortation. It's amazing. Also, I think it's hard sometimes, given how this series began, to remember that all a Radiant *requires* is a willing spren. And that Radiants are not necessarily meant to be rare superheroes that save the world, but rather grow in number and strength to fight a war. I think Adolin's devotion to Maya is really sweet, and very Adolin. And I do find it a bit interesting that Kal so easily dismisses Maya as if she is unimportant, even after spending all that time around her in Shadesmar. Yes, she's "dead" but the spren screamed all the time, and even fought for Adolin! Unless he missed that part? Seems weird that Kaladin, of all people, would be so callous and dismissive of Adolin's connection with her.

Technically Shallan didn't tel Kaladin about formless, right? But it's nice to see that the uncertainty that Shallan showed with Adolin in her last chapter was "righted" by Veil and Radiant who are able to tell Adolin things that Shallan is scared to. But it seems they will *all* have to agree to share the part of their past that Veil pushed Shallan on when they were on their mission--that it won't work unless Shallan joins in to own their past. Good to see that, in some ways, her alters (and Pattern!!) are trying to get her the help that she can't ask for herself, demonstrating that she desperately wants to deal with her trauma and her past, at some level, even if Shallan the personality disputes that. I find that a hopeful sign--they are aware of the risk. They see the issue. And everyone is on the same page that they have to figure it out, much like with Kal. This collective quest toward wellness is a beautiful twist on the lone hero's journey wherein the hero tackles his(or her, but let's be real it's usually his lol) challenges alone in the search of growth or greatness. The connections and relationships among these characters feel so real to me, and so rich. I love it.

So agreed. I do agree with a poster above that I think it seems to be setting Adolin up to die/sacrifice himself at some point this book--and Kal having to let him do so willingly (he has to accept that people get to choose to be protected or not)--I had thought it might be Lirin to play that role for him, but it seems more likely to be Adolin at this point? The question for me would be whether this would be before or after Shallan reckons with her past and the threat it's posing to her stability. BC if it's before...oh dear. No ship with Kal would be able to pull her back from the brink. Right now Adolin is the only thing holding Shallan AND Kaladin together, and while I think the loss of Adolin could be a useful character progression for Kal, it would *not* be that way for Shallan. If that happens we might see the first on-screen Radiant to break her oaths and kill her spren in the process as she further devolves into lies and escapism.