Bliev

That's why I wonder if it has to do with respecting others agency--their choice *not* to be protected. For instance, you can want to protect someone, but also respect their decisions. So it's not about accepting that someone CAN'T be saved, but rather than they don't want to be? He's willing to sacrifice himself, but he has a harder time allowing others to do the same? It squares with the primacy of choice ideas that all of SA seems to be reckoning with.

@Rainier OK, I can get behind this...to some degree. I think we're expecting similar oaths, but focusing on different components of "leadership". I can see it more as servant leadership but less as your typical forms of contingent reward or transactional leadership. The theory of transformational leadership, for instance, includes four facets: Idealized Influence, Inspirational Motivation, Individualized Consideration, and Intellectual Stimulation. I had been thinking in terms of the "typical" fantasy leader path, which is more Dalinar's model than Kal's, but if we characterize Windrunners as following a transformational or servant leadership path, then I can totally get on board. The irony here is I have literally published research on transformational leadership and should have had it at the forefront of my mind but you can see how much I'm segmenting my worlds right now and I'm now a bit embarrassed. lol (fun thought: some amazing leadership researchers that I know are faculty in the management dept at BYU, and I wonder if Brandon has spoken to them at all as he approaches his world. Would be cool. Unlikely, probably, but cool!)

Hmm. I've seen a lot of this about "leadership" and I suppose, maybe? Maybe Kal's specific Windrunner path bends toward leadership, but are we saying that Windrunners in general are made to be leaders? I don't think that's what we know of the order. In fact, I'd argue that a more typical Windrunner arc would be toward command structure and teamwork, not necessary leadership. That isn't to say that it isn't Kal's personal journey. But I think he's a leader by circumstance, via inspiration at first, but now because he focuses on teamwork, and I'd maybe even argue the opposite here, that Kal has to learn to NOT be a leader, that it isn't a HIM story, it's about his team. He has to learn to trust others and let go. That others get to be in charge of their own protection sometimes, and his own desires to protect them don't supercede their own agency.

I think that we feel like all Kal is doing is staying stagnant and that Shallan is being "Shallan" because this is the end of the transition time in the book, and we're really over-analyzing because we get ONE chapter a week! If we had the whole book, it would move much faster and the pace would work even better. So let's not get too wrapped up in that...how often do you ever read a book (let alone one that moves at a Sando pace!) one chapter a week? So deep breaths, all. :-) I also think that Syl and Kal might not be the best envoys to Lasting Integrity. They aren't exactly good diplomats--Kal is not good at playing that game. You saw him on the ship in Shadesmar with Notum. He was short tempered, demanding, and threatening. He's impatient and honorable to a fault...not exactly good at negotiating. ;-) and Syl has a...reputation. I also concur with some others that Kal probably needs more careful monitoring. He contemplated suicide when faced with Moash and the last trip to Shadesmar surely hasn't left him with positive memories. For me, I think it'll be interaction with Lirin. The same interactions he remembers as a boy, and then seeing how his father navigates the world so differently than he does, but with the clarity of adulthood and experience. I'm thinking that what leads to the 4th ideal might be an attack on Urithiru where his father sacrifices himself, tells Kal he's going to do it, and Kal has to let him go. That some people don't want to be protected, and you can't save them all. That, or it's a clash with Moash that attack and he has to fight his former best friend and acknowledge that he can't protect them all that way. Anyhow, just my speculation.

Awww. I love that Brandon gives us all people to identify with, and makes us empathize even with those we connect to less! I suppose "the triangle" brings me back to my teenaged years, lo those eons ago, when cute, earnest little Bliev made really horrible romantic choices, going for the tall, dark, handsome, somewhat disinterested broken guy who really only wanted to see happy, glossy, pretty Bliev and not full, actualized human Bliev, and the difference it made when I ended up with a partner who was--not that. (It also doesn't hurt that I'm totally the female version of Adolin, and am waayyyy too invested in his future because I am well aware that he's probably getting murked this book, sooooo....give me my moment of comfort before it's totally ripped from my heart lol)

I don't think Kaladin has no good qualities! Not at all. I just never ever read them in the same way that (many!) others did. I guess because I always identified so much with Shallan and never so much with Kaladin, that all I saw was how little he really *saw* her, and to me it felt she was attracted to an illusion of who she thought he was (confident, attractive) and he was attracted to the same in her (carefree, happy). I think she was definitely attracted to him, but never really knew him. I do really want to say that I love your point here abut how she dissociated from that as well, and manifested into pure physical attractiveness that she hated herself for. I disagree with this and have read it very differently, but that's the beauty of literature. :-) I don't consider any of them more "real" than the other, but i don't think they see Adolin as a necessary evil. At all. I think Veil likes no dependencies or relationships at all, because she hates the idea of being linked to anyone at all, but I also think she knows that she might not be right about that. I read the "wilt/fade" line as flippant sarcasm not as actual literalism. In fact, I read that line as being almost "me doth protest too much" about connecting with Adolin. :-) I'm one of those who thinks she's stabilized since OB but is at risk of destabilization with the Ghostbloods stuff. I don't expect her love and marriage to "heal" her, so I wasn't expecting a bunch of off-screen progress. I also think that him seeing the "real" her is what she needed in that moment--that someone could see that she was struggling, and see that she needed grounding. He always listened to her and was interested in her and noticed her. Now, I don't think any of them are more "real" than the others, but she certainly feels that "Shallan" is the primary, and the others defer to that, so it made sense narratively to me. Overall, dead horse properly beaten, retread unnecessary lol; but we just read it very differently. :-)

I'll agree that they got married precipitously and without her being truthful with him, and that makes it less than "excellent"! Hiding a secret spy life from your husband is probably a poor choice lol. I'll also say that her insecurities and PTSD have led her to consider herself unlovable and now seem positioned to threaten her marriage. But I'll disagree with this: all of her facets accept Adolin and the marriage, even if Shallan channeled her self doubt into Veil's preference for another. I don't think she has any part of her that regrets her relationship with Adolin or doesn't accept it as good for her. We've seen no evidence of regret in these chapters, and given the SA focus on choice, her explicit choice at the end of OB is critical to the theme. I'll also maintain (though of course there is a mega thread hashing all of this out already and I don't want to tread down that path again because massive migraine lol) that Adolin is the absolute best match for Shallan at all stages of her illness and journey, and I think that her insecurities here are less about the health of her marriage per se and more of an internal struggle, albeit one that can certainly threaten her marriage if she lets it.

Nice to see Dalinar's battle leadership mesh with his Bondsmith skills of connection. He sees right through Kaladin, but uses questions and silence to get Kal to see it himself (ironically, even Kal sees that he's doing it but can't help but fall into line). Dalinar knows when to use his commands and when to use his compassion, just like Kal does with the wayward spren moments before. Such great parallelisms of leadership. I do think the fact that both Kal and Dalinar think there's no coming back for a battle-weary warrior means that Kal's fourth oath will be the catalyst to bring him back, probably after months of development by Lirin's side in Urithiru and at a critical battle moment. I still hope that Kal swears it before anyone else. In terms of Rlain, I want more of his POVs. How hard must this last year have been for him! And how he must feel seeing the only remaining Honorspren treat him with the same disdain as all the other Alethi probably do. Argh.

haha...nah, Kal is *fine*, but her blowing up her excellent relationship with stable, well-adjusted, hot Adolin to go for the hot, broody fixer-upper who hates himself would be a bit of a self-destructive move. Albeit one that every teenager has considered making in their life at one point or another, I'm sure.

THIS PUN IS EVERYTHING. Formless = Shadolin embryo in utero confirmed! (jk jk)

@Nameless yeah, I’m with you on the ideal self stuff, but early pregnancy is much like being infected with a parasite, so I could totally see a rush of “General” Stormlight healing just undoing an early pregnancy if it hadn’t been worked into their spirit web or cognitive aspect yet.

I legit watch those monkey videos of annoyed mothers sometimes and go "YES I FEEL SO SEEN WE ARE INDEED PRIMATES" cause 6 months of quarantine has me wanting to go full Shallan and lightweave myself out of the house.

I won't retread too much that others have already covered in their opinions, but I'll also say this--Brandon does an amazing job making you feel that there is a whole WORLD out there (if not universe!) of other stories that are going on simultaneously to the ones he's chosen to write--I almost feel like he's this "meta Hoid" showing up to at specific times tell us the stories that are important to tell, but things like his time skips and his interludes always make me feel so very immersed in the world itself. I like to speculate and just imagine the mundanity (and adventures) that "Brandon/Hoid" didn't feel were the "real" story. I feel the OP though. I get it! With history, for instance, I often want to know what the people were doing--what did they eat? did they get as annoyed with their kids as I do? did they get bored? what did they do when they were bored?--and not necessarily "what they did" (which are usually the "important" things that the historians write down). I feel that's similar here.

Safest once you're already pregnant and want to stay that way. This doesn't really say much about conception or early, unknown pregnancy loss/abortion (which are when most pregnancies miscarry/abort).

As a mom of two, I agree. :-) (although I do NOT want more ever haha!) I think that Radiant pregnancies might have to include specific "intent" while attempting to conceive so as to not "heal away the parasite" so-to-speak. I'm guessing that unplanned pregnancies are unlikely. We've seen magic interfering with fertility in Warbreaker: It also hearkens me somewhat to the book Women's War: I'm intrigued by the possibilities here.

I don’t think Odium on Roshar will be the big bad in the back 5. I think it’s more likely that there will be more cosmere-wide implications and players then.

I love speculations!! i think Odium’s shard-holder (Rayse) will be killed, and someone will take up Odium’s power. But I think this killing will free Odium as it’s Rayse who is bound, not the power. this frees up Odium to do his damage elsewhere, as he’s (Or she!) is learning how to be a “god”. I think it’s likely that the person who takes up the power of odium will do so as a sacrifice. Szeth is my guess. He’ll see it as penance. And will swear to do “good”. But that won’t last. the back 5 will be our fearless heroes (the ones who survive anyways) figuring out the Cosmere and how to join in to save other humans, all while dealing with the aftermath of war on Roshar.

I think much of what we have seen about Adolin in the text meshes with Lift’s perspective on acknowledging the forgotten, and she’s the only Edgedancer we know of so far. But I agree that there are many orders that people might “fit”. In that way, radiant orders are much like horoscopes or MBTI tests—they are adaptable and involve some semblance of choice and decision to fit yourself into. with that said, I love that radiant orders expressly embrace this choice, from both sides. Spren get to choose..so do people. And if they choose one another, a radiant (and his/her unique path through their oaths) is born. Being “broken” may make this bond easier, but it’s not a necessity—because the spren get to choose.

This could be. Particularly if they follow this up with a public opinion push that fabrial tech is not only dangerous but morally wrong, and/or anti-religion (which is probably already strained with renowned atheist (and woman, gasp!) Jasnah on the throne).

I think the likelihood that multiple of the original SA characters die in these next two books is high. I doubt we would lose Kal/Shallan/Dalinar/Lift/Jasnah before the *very* end of Book 5, though, since it is their "journey" that we invested in most. I think the arcs that they are seeking to wrap up will require some of their stories to end, and others to continue into the Back 5 books. I think, of these 5, Kaladin and Dalinar are the most likely to make self-sacrifices in book 5. Fits their characters well.

Maybe it's a translation of "cognitive shadow" from one language to another? Maybe their "initiation" is to become of the cognitive realm? Maybe the initiation process uses:

After my 5th re-read just completed (eek), I actually see it as a pretty consistent narrative of her character: Overwhelming panic over her family led her to Jasnah. But to overcome her PTSD she had to lie and pretend from the moment she began. She dissociates from her past and the fake personas that don't remember anything become more attractive all the while. Then Jasnah is "murdered" (from her eye) and she has to continue (while secretly she's actually loving this because she's far from home and can pretend in any way she wants and also hates herself so if she dies she dies, in her mind). She meets Adolin--she actually likes him and inadvertently acts like "herself" for even a moment, even while she's continuing to pretend. Then chasms, facing her past, and growth. But still she won't *really* face it because lying is so much easier, so she persists--just pushing the forboding down deeper, even as Pattern hums in concerns. Then OB--and the lying is So. Much. Easier. than the truth, particularly with stormlight! She can be anyone! No one cares for Shallan anyways, right? Her parents hated her. Her brothers probably don't even miss her. Adolin won't love the "real" shallan. She should really just eff it all up by going for Kaladin anyways. That's what she deserves, right? Just to screw it up and have everyone hate her. But Adolin is so NICE and cute and--she finds herself being authentic, surprisingly, and growth again--she decides to stop dissociating for awhile. Maybe three personalities is enough to function. She stops lying so much. At least for the most part. Now RoW we see the Ghostbloods lie creeping up on her...which she's totally dissociated from the whole time! She just hides it and pushes it off and "I'll tell him sometime". This is classic Shallan. Avoiding confrontation, by magical means or otherwise, until it bites her in the chull. Now we just have to see if not confronting her own PTSD will mean that she actually does self destruct, or if she can overcome it--magically and otherwise. I find it utterly captivating. But then again, she's been my fav from day 1, and I'm totally an Adolin Superfan, so that's maybe not surprising? :-)

I think this is the most compelling theory I could get behind. That much like the Stormfather came to Dalinar in his dreams and the Nightwatcher holds court in the woods, the Sibling speaks via gemstone? OK. Now i'm listening *insert intrigued gif here*

As much as I love the spren--particularly the Sibling YAY!!!--idea, we still have no theories about how a spren could (a) operate a span reed/write and (b) place the gem in Navani's office without being spotted by the dozens of people and/or sapient spren on the ship. A sleepless could do this very very well. My Axies theory wouldn't work as well, unless he's got a spy on the inside to place the gem. I love the spren/human interaction possibilities here, but we have never seen a spren contact a human via span-reed or even letter or even that they can write. Remember that Lift can only interact with Wyndle in the physical realm (when he's not in shard blade mode) because of her uniqueness. The thought that a spren could manifest in the physical realm with enough corporeality to write? That's tough for me. Unless the other spanreed is in the cognitive realm...but even so. Women's script? There will need to be a lot of filling in the narrative blanks here for sure.

I like this thread and these ideas. My other two theories on this are: 1. She "killed" Pattern/broke her oaths to him. On purpose. So after the trauma of killing her mother, she could have denounced her bond and because she wasn't far enough along, it didn't dead-eye Pattern, but did set him back? 2. She was used to kill others at the direction of her father/her father's partners after he realized she had a shard blade (hence her horror at using Pattern as a blade--she amnesia'd it). Though she has little memory of using her blade after killing her mother (or of Pattern at all), it could already have been dissociated away.