Bliev

It's interesting how differently people can read a character! I never read Shallan as "fine enough" or "complete" in WoK or WoR, but rather as traumatized, insecure, and dissociative even then. She never faced her past, never acknowledged it. She lied and faked and pretended all was fine (which was, ironically, what Kaladin found so attractive about her, demonstrating just how little he could really understand the depths of her trauma). The dissociation, for me, is fascinating. I have loved reading how she pretends and stuffs her insecurities down deeply to caretake for her brothers, to impress Jasnah...just to survive. There's also tons of moments she doesn't remember from her youth, but it seems like Veil and Radiant do. Anyhow, I felt the DID approach fit her dissociation from the beginning of the series--where we see that her generalized insecurity and pretending is not just "normal" but a very big problem. And that her magical/fantastical abilities are both separate from and intertwined with her psychology, such that her specific method of dealing with her childhood trauma is DiD and this manifests itself differently because of her bond with Pattern, much like Kal's depression would be there with or without Syl, but Syl allows him to address it differently. ETA: I guess I just wanted to note that her dissociation was apparent to me even before she created Veil to do a task, which, to my mind, became a different "personality" as Shallan's disorder worsened and her magical abilities made it easier to pretend. In this way, being a Lightweaver makes it MORE difficult to function and heal because creating new alters seems so easy to do.

I like the Herald theory. Just unhinged enough. I think one thing that is working against my sleepless theory is the focus on "Pain". not potential destruction. The message seems very much like a spren-rights activist (you know what I mean), almost such that it could be a spren. But spren with span reeds? Which sapient spren type would have one? Unless it's a rogue radiant. I kind of like the Axies (as a Siah Aimian) idea for this reason. He's maybe kind of of in the cognitive realm already (opposite shadow, remember) and is obsessed with spren. If he was trying to seek out purpose in his apparent immortality and connected enough with them that he started communicating with them, he might have found his purpose in advocating for them, no matter the cost. What does he care if there's a war if he'll live anyways? But that might be too central of a role for him in this book.

YES! Exactly. What is "real" is unnecessary and what Shallan will have to address as she progresses--that they are all "her" and she is all "them". The fact that she hasn't addressed the deepest part of herself threatens to cause her to dissociate more, and Veil knows it. Shallan saying "the fakest mask of all" is a testament to her insecurity not a confession that she isn't "real". They're all "real".

I just mentioned on the Chapter 9 thread that I think it's a Sleepless. The cache they took on Aimia included tons of soulcasters that the Kaza interlude in OB demonstrated were to be protected at all costs. But if the Sleepless have been around millennia, surely they have seen other scholars like Navani, playing with things they have no business playing with--not grasping the ramifications of their actions beyond winning their "little" war. The Sleepless have long memories. And if understanding the soul casters means recreating the Dawnshards? Well...Navani is playing with fire, probably.

That was my first reaction too, but do we have any evidence at all that a spren could control a spanreed, let alone write in women's script? Would they have to be manifest in shadesmar to do it? I think it more likely that it's a sleepless, and it will be the first indication of the sleepless's role in this war, beyond the Kaza interlude. After all, if they were unable to prevent people from coming to Aimia, and they took the soul casters that were there, the Sleepless are probably the most motivated to prevent an earth shattering event. If Radiant Spren are captured and their surges are controlled at will--instead of bound by oaths and bonds--anyone could destroy the world. Dawnshards == Soulcasters? (maybe complicated ones that have all the surges at their finger tips?)

Yeah, I'd think that the Shallan we see is the "more perfect version" of herself (as per her Lightweaver abilities") and this "Formless" is her child alter that is stuck in the trauma place of her youth. What happened to her as a child? What has she internalized as her fault that is *worse* (to her mind) than killing her parents? This chapter does confirm to me, though, that she's held steady since OB, and her alters have held in a functional state thus far. Like Kal, she will likely revert a bit before progressing again, but I don't think she's currently *worse* than OB.

@DeployParachute I am not a clinical psychologist, though I am a published academic in psychology. However, I concede that the use of the word most may be not useful (though the cursory research I did on the topic back in my undergrad psych days and since suggest that unification/integration is rare among patients, it may indeed be a more common goal for patients even if they are unable to achieve it). Regardless, I have not seen Brandon's specification that he was characterizing her as being in a downward spiral, so I will absolutely concede that point and that we shouldn't rule anything out. Thanks for sharing that. My only point was thus: I don't think she's worse off than in OB at this moment based on the early chapters. Regardless of whether Brandon intends to take her down that same OB road remains to be seen, but I think she's in a much better position than she was in throughout the last book. I also want us to challenge ourselves when we see these characters to not desire or expect "typicality" in their mental states. Brandon has said repeatedly that he is leaning into real-world mental illnesses (depression, DID), and many readers live with those issues every day and will for the rest of their lives.

That's the thing, though--with DID, it's not likely she'll ever look "typical" mentally. Living with it, functioning with it--that's what "well" will look like, in most cases. She is stabilized. And yet still insecure and anxious and not "well" yet. But she is not having blackout moments anymore where she can't remember (like when she wonders when she drew something), she is not out of control. Yet, she's still haunted by her trauma. She has a ways to go magically, and mentally. But I don't think she's worse off than OB, nor do I think she'll lose control quite like she did in OB. Asking herself if it was really her seems to align with Shallan's insecurities and anxieties to me--the self gaslighting. "Wait, what if I'm losing it again!" But what's an improvement, to my mind, is that she doesn't run from it or deny it like she often did in WOR and in OB. She tried to figure it out logically. She acknowledged her uncertainty. And her paranoia of others in this case? TOTALLY WARRANTED, imho. Someone killed Ialai. So who? She ruled herself out, without spiraling into self doubt. And the potential threat led her to focus more on her task, which is a good thing too. Seems like she's doing well with Adolin--he asks who he's talking to, she responds, they're a team, etc. I agree that the journey toward her next "truth" will surely be a task. And she may struggle. But I don't think that she's nearly in as bad of shape as she was during 90% of OB nor in the denial she was in in WOK and WOR. To me, that's improvement.

I concur with this. I think we're seeing stability and cooperation, but not growth. And Shallan is still insecure and anxious (which aligns with Veil's hints about how they need to "deal" with their past more), and doubts her own goodness and worthiness. But she doesn't run from that anxiety. She tries to deal with it directly and logically, which is an improvement over WOR and OB Shallan, for whom such doubt would have been the beginning of further disassociation, either by alter-standards, or just by denial and "acting" her role to avoid it. She's clearly not well. But I don't think her wellness is contingent upon looking "normal". I think, per your comments, wellness for Shallan means functionality and peace, not looking or thinking like everyone else. I really appreciate how you keep contextualizing how mental health stigma (and disability stigma in general) colors our interpretation of these characters. We want them to be "well" which codes as "normal". But you can be functional and not "typical". And our goals here (and in the real world) often don't track with people's lived experiences. When you listen, for instance, to autistic adults who decry certain therapies as attempts to change them in ways that ignore their autonomy and value, or to the Deaf community who have fought for distinctive identities and experiences throughout the years--these are complex issues that deserve our respect. I am glad that Brandon is giving us difficult things to consider while providing us with his normal action-packed plot movement. Because as much as we joke that we just want "Kaladin to be happy", well, guess what, he's never going to just be "happy". But he can be "well" in a way that keeps him functional and valued and important, without being "healed". It's just more realistic to me, and I appreciate it too. And he will still have bad days! And that's okay too.

I disagree with Shallan being "worse" let alone "way worse". She has control over her alters, they are working together, they are aware of each other and cooperative. Now, if it turns out she has a 4th alter, then...but I don't think she does. I think Pattern would know she has another alter, and she'd have a black out moment of no memory. I think she's low in confidence and hyper anxious, particularly the Shallan alter, so she might be paranoid about it, but I think it more likely that either Ialai poisoned herself with the last wine (likely) in anticipation of the assassination, or that there's a blow-gun assassin (Mraize likes his Parshendi blow darts, remember?) around in the shadows that the Ghostbloods recruited to ensure success.

That's almost verbatim my husband's reaction. I hid my scifi/fantasy self from him until it was too late for him to bolt. I just told him that I love Brandon Sanderson like he loves Phish and he finally understood. So he gets his Phish concert getaways with his friends and I get to chat about random WOBs on the interwebz. win-win, eh?

I had two friends (married couple) introduce me to Mistborn about 5 years ago, and it's now me, them, and their brother. That's it. :-) My husband made it through 1.5 mistborn era 1 books and called it quits. On the one hand, tis lonely to be a brando sando fan in this house. on the other, I got to totally give a 5 minute spoiler rundown to my husband for Mistborn era 1 and Secret History and it was magnificently satisfying to tell him all the things. lol I look forward to giving him the rundown of RoW when it comes out. For SA overall, I was like: "so yeah, there are these ghosts, right, who keep getting reincarnated into alien bodies and they have different powers and some are insane. and there's an evil god who gives them their powers. And the heroes are human-like but they are all totally psychologically messed up but that works in their favor actually because they get powers from these things called spren which are like thoughts, but you can see them sometimes and they flit and fly around. And the magic comes from this storm that has a big spren that looks like a old man and he sends the magic source down to the people in the form of light that they store in spheres and then use to fuel their flying and healing and stuff." lmaooo

Same! The three people I know IRL who are anxiously awaiting the RoW release are dutifully not reading the early release chapters and I'm feeling very stifled on our group chat. lol Thank you, anonymous Sharders, for being my lone source of sanity during this tumultuous time. lol

I read WOK and WOR back to back, since I started my Cosmere journey around December 2014 I think (with mistborn). By the time OB came out in 2017, I was hooked and read all the preview chapters as they were released, so I was able to somewhat skim those chapters when I got the ebook. I took the day off work and sat on my couch with my cat, Butchie (see avatar, may her RIP), and had it finished in about 6-7 hours.

I have long thought that the Navani/Sibling theory is a likely one, particularly if the Urithiru/Fabrial analogy is correct. As we get to know her own "brokenness" throughout this book, and what drives her--I hope we learn about what drove the Sibling away. In many ways, Navani seems to me a marriage of Honor and Cultivation--intellectual curiosity, making things, standing by the side of a man who doesn't deserve her because of her oaths. Though the Stormfather did mention that she was not very good at keeping them...I wouldn't be surprised if her proximity to a Bondsmith would, in some ways, coax the Sibling out of its slumber. ETA: it makes me think about her fabrial writings--that you have to coax the spren with something it loves. So what does the Sibling love? What is it attracted to? That will be the missing link here, I think.

Yes, I'm definitely thinking along the lines of Sja-anat, but the cognitive shadow version. Nale I don't really count as "defecting" so much, as I think he's just nuts. Though of course, he "counts" as a defector. I was more considering the Ishar speculation. That there is true nefariousness afoot with him, imho, and I personally think we'll find out more about that in Book 5, if I had to guess (after we finally get Gavilar's prologue).

I like that we're getting more depth re: the Fused. I am glad they're not just nameless, faceless evil. in OB, every fused we met seemed to be not very complex, character-wise. Sane/insane seemed to be the only delineating factor. But I think we see here that there is a wide variety in personality, goals, and even "honor", which squares with the fact that they are the souls of actual Singers, right? If Venli can be a Radiant, then why can't Leshwi have a different philosophy than her other brethren? It also follows the idea that there are "orders" of Fused with different value systems just like with the Radiants. I really like the parallelisms. I also like how the sound theme is getting pulled throughout this chapter (and the others). The "tone" that Navani hears, the fact that Kal can hear the Rhythms. I think the Singers and the Radiants coming to understand one another will be important for mutual respect and survival as the war goes on, and this is a good start. ETA: makes me wonder if we'll get a Herald who defects to Odium, and a Fused who defects to "Honor" (Dalinar)? Hmmm... In terms of Veil, I really think Shallan's chapters are well done so far...it's demonstrating the control Shallan has over her alters, that she's able to use them for different tasks and they are able to communicate with one another and make joint decisions. This is progress, for her. But what happens if Veil overrules the others? Who is "in control"? In some ways, i think that's a backslide. In others, the fact that Veil is taking up more with Adolin's side of things is progress, almost like the personality traits are starting to mix more.

Yes, I know. :-) My comment was not as to whether she actually has different personalities (after all, I don't speak to "professor" Bliev when I'm being "mommy" Bliev, nor am I attracted to different men lol), but as to whether (a) having Veil and Shallan talk to one another in such a way is indicative of her worsening state, and (b) whether there is one "true" Shallan at all (which the prior conversation was debating).

Ahhhh great catch @Child of Hodor! I had forgotten that. But a stash of calories could be useful in that case!

I suppose I have a different perspective than many here, in that I think that we all contain multitudes. Am I the "same" Bliev when I'm nursing my son as when I'm on a stage, giving a presentation to 1,000 managers? Am I the "same" when I'm lifting weights as when I'm coaching a grad student through a statistical analysis? Or when I'm dancing with friends versus pitching a book to a publisher? Sure I am. I know who I am. But I also know that different tasks require different things of me and I employ different traits to meet the moment. To me, in this RoW segment, Shallan is doing the same. She is consciously using her personas for a task, and she's aware of it. Now, hers are magical, so, a bit different, but she's all of these personas, and they are all her. There's no "real" Shallan, or, rather, they're ALL the "real" Shallan. And that's what she'll have to accept in the end. ETA: it made me think of something my husband said the other day since we're working from home now--"I can always tell when you're on a call with someone important because your voice changes, it's hilarious." So who's the real me? The woman my husband knows or the one my department chair knows? And does it matter?

Given that Stormlight is Honor's investiture, I would think that Odium would be fine if it were unable to be accessed. I think that would be harder than he thinks. But preventing the perpendicularity from moving around the planet would definitely seem like something he'd try to do. Because if you're not close to Dalinar, then you can't access it. And that would be devastating to the radiants. I have also thought about the mission to Aimia and the Larkins, which eat stormlight/investiture. Maybe they could drain spheres, but not Lift's food? So in a war with Larkins being used indiscriminately, Lift would be okay?

I've read this thread with a lot of interest! Thank you for bringing it up...my thoughts: We know that spren coalesce, so with Lirin being transported to a place with other Radiants around, it would make sense to me to see a spren of some sort seek him out. It would be very interesting if said spren was somewhat anti-Honorspren, and/or anti-human, and generally attracted to someone who conflicted with Kal and Syl. Maybe Lirin's pacificity and bitterness at the war that hurts everyone would ironically lead to a stoneward spren to be attracted to him. I don't know if their spren order makes collective decisions like some orders seem to (Cryptics) or if they are more individualistic, but I think the contrast would be fascinating.

I think what this chapter shows is the Shallan has maintained in the year that has passed since Thaylan Field. She gained control over creating new alters. She is fully aware of her alters and what she uses them for. But this chapter definitely demonstrates that she has made no new progress on the next truth she must face to move forward. The Veil persona looks like she will serve a purpose here--forcing Shallan to face her fear and own this truth. My wild hypothesis is that the "power up" that comes with facing the next truth--the truth of her past and why she dissociates that seemed to start to be triggered by doing accounts in this chapter--will coincide with Veil "dying" (i.e., she'll sacrifice herself for Shallan to grow). Now, the WOB above suggests I'm wrong, that there won't necessarily be a magical "solution" to her DID, but I had thought it might work. Ultimately, I'm way less worried about Shallan after this chapter than I was during most of OB where it seemed that Veil and Radiant were taking over and that Shallan herself didn't have control over it and/or didn't care to. Thaylan Fields and her affirmative choice of Adolin seemed to be moments of clarity that helped her toward more self awareness.

@Honorless *hugs* I think of all people, we who are so touched by the words of a man most of us have never met can understand the true power of words, particularly when they come from a community that otherwise brings us such joy. Glad you're here.

I took it a few times (for test-retest reliability!) and my modal response was Windrunner + Edgedancer (average across multiple re-takes approximately 75% for both). I admire other orders, but I think Edgedancer is probably spot on for me.