Bliev

I find it interesting they don't know exactly how many folks have progressed through their oaths. But I thought this was Jasnah, yes. I love that Leshwi and the singers know that shard plate = fourth ideal and that's how they know if someone has reached it. So much information lost to time! I think the humans are less risky, based on what you hear from Leshwi--in that technology could fight the fused, and the fused need singer bodies to inhabit. But Humans are more versatile in this war for Odium, and they can be used in different ways. I don't think Odium cares except to win his freedom and take vengeance.

AMAZING. --Seems the Leshwi as Kaladin enemy/foil theory is dead. Was one of my original feelings, which I backed off of after the last chapter. I was pleasantly surprised to see Venli's hope of connecting with Leshwi on her own independence move so quickly. I like it. And I also love seeing the culture of the singers/Fused come out piece by piece. --Definitely agree that it seems the Sibling may be a deadeye, at least the Fused think so, but why would the SF say it was sleeping and to "leave them alone"? --I LOVE that Kal beat the pants off the Pursuer and he's so salty about it. Made my day. --Moash with the attitude...interesting his place in all of this. What is Odium planning with him?? --Venli as spy...she's definitely going to connect with our team this way. But who? How? And how will Taravangian get Jasnah and Dalinar out of the way? I think King T will meet his maker this book...

I imagine that Odium is open to playing all sides and has multiple plans in action--with the main goal being take Kaladin out of the picture, one way or another. I've come around to thinking that Leshwi's interest in Kal is not as nefarious as I first thought (i.e., a few weeks ago, I thought it was a very particular ruse to get him to let his guard down, I now just think she's intrigued by him and probably bored after thousands of years of doing the same ol' same ol'). I think that Moash is now colluding directly with Odium and is less under Leshwi's power, so to speak, in that I don't think she's his "boss". But I wouldn't be surprised if your theory were correct.

Agreed. I don't think they have much of a role in the current war, outside of what we've already seen them do. I think there will be moments with them reminding of us of the stakes and the history, but they will be less plot-relevant in books 4 and 5. As we zoom out to see the broader Cosmere story, their history becomes really relevant: how did Honor bind Odium, how did the Oathpact occur, what happened next, etc. That's where the Heralds' experiences become more plot-relevant, imo. I wonder how many will be "left" at that time, though. Will more of them get murdered by Moash's knife before we get to the back 5?

Yes I know, re: the corpse that didn’t bleed. Sorry that was my point—that this was referring to him. i can’t imagine that Shallan’s memories in the aftermath one of her most traumatic moments are all that clear. Which is to say that I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t actually dead, that’s all.

I wouldn’t think it was a u turn but rather a demonstration that the things that happened to her were orchestrated by outside forces that she couldn’t have understood. I think Mraize knows that Veil needs the draw of mystery to keep her engaged, and her knows that there’s no way the three would kill him without getting answers from him. i think he wants to keep her off guard, doubting, questioning. If he says “oh that guy with your mom” there’s no way she doesn’t demand info now. There’s also a possibility that she shatters. I don’t really have an opinion, really, but it’s the only person really not accounted for in her memory imo...this mysterious fellow who is labeled as her “mother’s lover” and used as the reason that “her father killed her mother”. Shallan blames him for changing her mother. Well, what if he did? What if he is the reason that Shallan killed her mom?

@Oltux72 that’s why I wondered if he was Dreder, Shallan’s moms “lover”. If he wasn’t really dead, and wasn’t really a Skybreaker acolyte. in OB, Mraize’s letter to Veil brings up the the Sons of Honor and then transitions to the Skybreakers. It implies that the person with her mother was a skybreaker acolyte. But both groups were in opposition...and it’s possible that heleran or dreder were convinced to change sides. Or were moles to begin with. Pattern notes that the letter had lies and secrets in it. Mraize was trying to imply something that was untrue. Unless Restares is a title (like Sadeas), not a name, it couldn’t be Heleran. But it could have been Dreder, particularly if he didn’t die that day that Shallan remembers as “two corpses, but only one that bled” in WOR.

Yeah, I can totally see them using her as bait. Pattern was a gardener in Shadesmar, so it makes sense that he would seek out a bond in the garden. I can see them potentially "breaking" Shallan as a child (*shudders*) and then taking her to the garden every day and trying to promote the bond. Do we think that maybe Restares is Dreder, and he was never a Skybreaker acolyte "for real" but rather was there to experiment with and seek out Nahel bonds in general--whether Cryptic or Skybreaker he didn't care? Maybe this will be either the moment that will force her to face her past, and get more answers for her mother's actions (which I think is what she really wants to know). Edit: my bad--Wyndle was the gardener. Stupid brain fart. Thanks @Nathrangking!!

Maybe. I think that's reasonable. But he doesn't seem to know where any other Heralds are, just Ishar, because Ishar curses him at night. I think probably, though, the stronger evidence against the Restares=Ishar claim is that I can't imagine Shallan would know who he was when she met him.

Is Ishar accounted for? Stormfather calls him the "Herald of Mysteries" in OB. and he says that "he seeks death, perhaps that of every man." And Nale was gone for a long time seeking out Ishar when he went to talk to him in OB. In OB, they say he's the god-priest of Tukar (Tezim) and waging war against Emul...but is he accounted for currently?

On Reddit last night, Brandon kind of confirmed (to some degree) Mraize's and the GB stated purpose, in response to a question about Lift and how she could be a renewable battery of stormlight--so why isn't Mraize interested in her? https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/j1yqk5/row_rhythm_of_war_chapter_13/g75a4z3/?context=3 This suggests that global/cosmic economic domination is the true goal here. This is interesting, because it pits a more "base" motivation--money--against the good v evil paradigm that is prompting a global war on Roshar. I love with Brandon does this--demonstrates that not everyone is at all worried about a war...even more people (I would have included WOR-era Sadeas in this too) are worried about their own personal money/power/respect (and if anyone just sang those words as if they were from The Lox song, then that was completely intended.) lol

She was told to, but I don’t remember her getting it? Didn’t she carve it into a table in OB instead?

Yes, I agree. The whole reveal in OB was that the humans were otherworldly invaders who brought the evil god with them, so I think the knowledge of other worlds like Ashyn at least being inhabited is probably well known among the elites at least, though regular folks may still be in the dark.

I see your point here, but I don't think that she reacted in a way that was unexpected. Last book, they traveled to another "world"/realm. They met people who looked weird (lighthouse guy). They saw spren cities. They met a stranger with a strange blade (Azure). And surely they have enough astronomy to know there are moons and planets out there. My guess is that (a) she thinks he wants to travel to another planet, which, wouldn't be strange for her as a scholar to hear, and (b) she is not at all even fathoming the breadth of the worlds we know he is discussing. Even the ancient greeks had theories regarding planets and the cosmos--and Galileo's telescopes expanded knowledge even more. So I don't think it's outside the realm of expectation that she wouldn't be surprised that some people wanted to go to different planets, and magic might make that possible. I guess I didn't think that was unrealistic as a reaction. Character-wise, Shallan is hardly ever shocked, either--her ravenous curiosity is a pretty strong character trait that Mraize definitely knows how to exploit.

Do we think that Thaidakar is a worldhopper as well? There's no hints in text that he is (except maybe for his seeming disdain for many Alethi customs which could be seen as the mockery of a foreigner).

I literally guffawed. Bravo. Ten points to you.

One thing I like about this theory is that, from the jump, Sebarial is almost too ridiculous. He's dismissive, and acts disinterested. It's precisely what someone with other motivations would do to make themselves seem less of a threat. Also, in WOR, Shallan things "who is to say being beholden to this man is any different" when considering her joining Sebarial's camp vs. Dalinar's. Which could be a hint of foreshadowing given how she is beholden to Mraize now. But Sebarial's reaction to her maneuvering seemed truly genuine and he didn't seem to have much interest in her beforehand, which means my theory that the Ghostbloods knew of her well before her arrival on the shattered plains would probably not be supported. I think this is a distinct possibility, though I'm not wholly convinced.

I could get behind the idea that Formless is a catch all for her pre-11 yo life/memories and all that entails, which would, I suppose, make her "OG". I don't know if I'd call it the "master" identity as if it's pulling strings, but definitely could get behind the idea of it as a useful repository for further dissociation. i.e., "Oh, don't like that at all, let's just shove that down deep with all the other awful things that have happened." What I have a bigger issue with is the idea that Formless is a fourth identity that is out there in the world acting when the other three are unaware of it. I don't see any evidence at all that this is the case. It would be a huge twist, yes, but also one without the satisfying foreshadowing that I am used to. Willing to be wrong, tho.

So do we think that Radiant and Veil are wrong too? That they are also amnesiac? Because Veil seems to remember. And Radiant seems to know that they are currently stable, but in peril from other unformed identities. I don't disagree with your here--she's definitely not a fully credible source of information. But I think that's what's different about this. Brandon has gone out of his way to show us her risks but also her stability as of right now. I don't see any textual evidence that there is an unknown identity that has been operating all this time without us knowing. I do think the *risk* for another identity is palpable. And I don't think she's "fine". But I don't see any of the textual evidence so far leading me to the idea that Formless is the assassin or another player in this game *yet*. It may well become an issue, for sure. And I think that's what we'll see emerging as she lies more and more to Adolin and Veil/Radiant/Pattern try to force her to tell the truth. I think the twist is being set up, for sure, but I think it's less "Formless has been here the whole time" and more likely something like "Shallan has been part of Mraize's plan the whole time and deep down, a part of her knows it's true." I think there will be a moment where she has to choose to embrace a fundamental lie (giving life to Formless) or truth (embracing her past) which I hope is in where this books goes. In another thread I speculated as to whether what she thinks is so bad is actually not as bad as she thinks it is--but is a more mundane childhood trauma than one that involves matricide or patricide. I'm now not so sure about that, and wondering if it's more magical in nature. If she was cultivated by the Ghostbloods (or the Sons of Honor, even!!) from the beginning due to their interest with budding Radiants...finding a chaotic, abusive household that already had spren attracted there (Skybreakers) and trying to broker a bond (maybe Pattern's cryptics were a part of this...why did they choose her??). But there's little text evidence for that as of yet I think.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think there might be others. I just personally feel that the textual evidence we've been shown so far--Formless "stirring" but not awake according to Shallan, Veil and Radiant's fear of other alters, Radiant's comments directly refuting the idea that there are already others, Shallan's comments in this chapter about amnesiac moments and not perceiving any missing times in the present--suggests that Formless is a threat, but not a reality...yet. I think if it were another identity, we wouldn't have the awareness of the stirring and the actual discussion of it among the Three at this point, it would rather be moments of amnesia or uncertainty to make us wonder what's going on.

THIS WAS AMAZING. I wonder if stormlight is for Silverlight or the Ire. For some who are trying to live in the cognitive realm and piece together the powers of gods--either actually or academically? I do think it's too simplistic to think it's just about "power". Ialai's monologue should be evidence enough that there is more afoot. Mraize wants stormlight off-world. Gavilar got void light off-world. He thinks Restares knows something about this that they need to know. Stormlight is more readily accessible investiture than anywhere else in the Cosmere, so it would definitely be valuable. Is it for an experiment? or for something more nefarious. There's definitely more to this that Mraize isn't sharing. Or, rather, that Mraize himself may not even know. HIs collections suggest that there's a sense of pride in it for him, and personal achievement. Maybe that's part of what drives him--to be able to do something that no one else has done. I think it is important to note that they're anti-Odium and this is probably important for future discussions. Definitely on the "Navani's critic = Sja Anat" train now. And also POOR RENARIN. I love that Sja Anat is protective of him. Someone should be. Poor boy. I am VERY VERY concerned that this trip to Lasting Integrity will backfire on Shallan, making her worst nightmare come true. She thinks that her past will make her unlovable, which makes her dissociation worse (though omg seeing how much she wants to get better is as heart-wrenching as last chapter for me!), but it will be her lies that ruin her relationships, not her truths. Oh the tangled web we weave... Edited: @DeployParachute I would argue the textual evidence for Formless not being an identity yet is Radiant's discussion with Kal in last week's chapter. She notes that they are still 3, but that there are others, unformed, waiting to emerge if their experiment fails. I do not believe that Formless is "real" yet. But very well could become real if Shallan continues to dissociate.

HI STONESINEW *waves*. ;-) (no, but seriously, I don't think Leshwi could ever consider a Herald "good" no matter what. I think they are all tainted in her mind. It does make me wonder, though, how much the Fused interacted with the Heralds, or if they were more like symbolic avatars of the enemy and caricatured as such? So, as a Heavenly One, she'd have fought the Windrunners under Jezrien's leadership forever and ever. But did she ever face off against Taln or any others? The way she fights it makes me wonder.)

These change with every re-read for me, but here's my current snapshot: 1. Adolin: he's refreshing and funny and so GOOD. I also identify with him more than many other characters--always trying to lift others up, always trying to lighten the mood and generate joy, even when surrounded by darkness. Unsure of himself at times, but thinks it through and decides not to dwell on it. He's the living embodiment the idea that-- even if people like to pretend that you're naive-- positivity and optimism and kindness are daily choices. And no, they aren't easy. 2. Shallan: Her chapters are always the ones I find myself reading and re-reading. When I do my re-reads, hers are the only chapters I never ever skip or skim--because I feel like there are always more mysteries to unravel. I also feel for her as a young woman growing up in a restrictive world that projects upon her what they want her to be, all while she chafes against the expectations. Former-young-woman-Bliev totally identifies, Shallan! 3. Wit: What can I say. His scenes in these books have been limited, but always jam-packed with humor, action, mystery, and even unexpected depth and kindness.

Yeah, I actually had to check which board I was on before I replied to you. :-) I wrote that before the preview chapters, but had missed the WOB. Thx. And agreed so much on your second point here. I tend to feel that writers are so often limited by their own experiences, pulling in what they know and, kind of only that. It's one reason I love fantasy so much--it is, in theory, so much freer of a genre, to play and innovate. But we so rarely see that innovation in relationships in books, as you mention. It's kind of maddening. You can create whole other species and worlds and magics, but...they're all still male and female and heterosexual? They even all look the same. So strange. Even among the variety of species on earth there is a wide variety of sexes and reproductive capacities that manifest and such complicated beauty in it.

Of course not. Bi-erasure is a definite thing, and problematic as well. I was unaware of the canonizing of her identity as bi though, though it was my mistake for not discussing her bi-curiosity that had been established up to this point. Her hetero marriage still remains a central part of the story, but I should not have conflated that with identity.