Bliev

To add another discussion point, what to think about Mraize’s use of the word “avatar”? It wasn’t used in WoK at all. in WoR it was used when Dalinar was looking “for an avatar” for the SF’s voice: In OB, we see it twice, once when Evi refers to the Nightwatcher and once in the letter from Bavadin to Hoid about their new “avatar”. And finally, the Mraize quote in RoW, but Vyre also says to Odium: Is it just a linguistic choice? Or more than that? We see it most used here in reference to a representative of a god, or a splinter of one. This could be foreshadowing against the Kelsier possibility, or it could be further evidence of Kel’s megalomania.

I see the “willing champion” part doesn’t come in the final words they speak to one another, just earlier. I had misremembered that. But Rayse had already identified his champion before he made this offer. So we have two questions: who had Rayse identified and what loophole did Taravangian see that Rayse could not?

The contract calls for willing champions to fight to the death, and I can’t imagine Kaladin flipping so hard against all of his oaths in the next 10 days. I do agree though that the choice of champion is unclear: who will he choose? And the timeline...in book 5 Szeth goes to shinovar and Kal is going to Shadesmar and Dalinar prepares for an epic showdown. So...who will be the champion? Right now my money’s on Ishar.

Agreeing with @Greywatch and @Kingsdaughter613 here. I would never have either thought of cultivation as a god of fertility nor Lift as associated with sexual immaturity in any particular way. Def a stretch.

While I don’t doubt that she’s upset about her partner’s destruction, i think killing Rayse was her revenge. I seriously doubt she’s playing a petty game because she feels unappreciated. I also think that a shard can do whatever the power believes to be in its Intent, and I don’t think that precludes Cultivation from seeing death or destruction as part of that process, just like she saw removing Dalinar’s memory as a “pruning” and Ruin and Preservation decided to create life together. It’s possible she’s working to release Odium to stick to to the Cosmere but I find that less compelling as a motivation, personally.

Very true. That would be a strange new occurrence that we haven't yet seen. One of the original 16 vessels as a sliver. That would be cool.

Yeah, re: Valor, perhaps, he may have been frustrated at Valor's decision to wait, because they interpreted their Intent as: “Discretion is the better part of valor.” (i.e., caution is better than being rashly courageous). Firmness doesn't mean rashness. But Hoid would have interpreted this differently.

That's a great point. I could see that as well. Part of cultivating growth is death, right? Growth that is infinite is like a cancer...and death can prompt more growth. I can see that for sure. One thing about this that I think could be interesting is that she might see this future differently than some others. So, she knew T had to be in tune with the shard of Odium to be able to take the power, hence T's "most emotional/least smart" day. So she made that happen. She knew that D would need to figure out how to be an honorable man without his guilt paralyzing him, so she made that happen. She might also believe that the entire Cosmere, or all the other shards, need to grow too. Change is a big theme on Roshar, and was in RoW with spren and men realizing that growth and change is possible and necessary. That's such a cultivation theme. So what if she sees releasing Odium as a necessary part of spurring the other shards in their "growth", erroneously or not? Her Intent has likely clouded a lot of her judgment/scheming by this point. So it's hard for me to tell what of this is her shard's Intent--prune/growth/change--and what is strategy, per se.

This. Lirin and Kaladin are so similar, that it's interesting to see how little they seem to want to understand each other. Lirin values protection and so does Kaladin. They are stubborn and dogmatic in their views of the world. They are judgmental and loyal. But they are also deeply hurt and pained by what they see as their own failures to protect those they love. Seeing Lirin hold the same guilt Kal does over Tien, but also feel guilty about Kal? It's not hard to see where Kaladin gets his principles or his personality. I liked this book partly for that reason--I had hoped they would learn to understand each other better, to appreciate one another. I think they did, though we see it through Kal's lens, so Lirin seems more wrong than he probably is (though this is not a justification for his denunciation of Kal in fear and anger). I love that the world Brandon created, with spren that reveal hidden emotions, adds more context to Lirin, even without a POV from him, and so does Hesina's POV.

I really loved this book. It’s tied with WoR for me as second fave behind OB and ahead of WoK. I really loved how it kept moving. though the flashbacks were not my favorite this time around, I did like seeing how much changed for the Listeners in such a short time. Sometimes I forget how young Venli is! And her arc was excellent: the reluctant hero, still selfish but being pushed to be better. And how she fleshed out Rlain’s character too. boy did I love seeing my boy Adolin in this. Trying so hard to live up to his father’s expectations while finding his own path, but always doing what he does best: making other people around him better. And I was really satisfied with the Maya story. Revived but he’s not radiant? Sounds good to me. I liked how we learned about spren in this book—how much like people they are, how their societies are political and changeable just like humans are. That they can feel and choose. I really liked the Navani arc. The tones and the anti-light are huge discoveries and I’m excited to see how she can grow her bond with the Tower while still being the scientist she is. And how she will navigate this change as a bondsmith. But what I really liked was seeing two women of a certain age/experience connect over discovery and invention, and over maternal grief, while still being enemies. So fascinating. and yeah, I sobbed during Kal’s scenes there toward the end. And I usually don’t connect with his character. So well done, Brandon.

I think she wants to plant her final seed and then be done with it. So much of this books seems about the limits of immortality, psychologically. I can’t imagine she’s immune. Another thread noted that 2 of the 3 she “touched” have leveled up: Dalinar is as close to reviving Honor as one could be, and T is now Odium. She sees the future better than most shards, and so I’m sure that she knows T is likely to get out of his bondage. But I don’t think she cares much about that. I think she could be cultivating Lift until she’s ready to take the power herself and then will let herself be killed to serve as the catalyst for the next phase of the future she sees is likely to occur.

She’s..cultivating new vessels perhaps?

I was one of those against the Kelsier argument pre-RoW, but it does seem like there are hints in RoW that Thaidakar is Kel. But the timeline here has always seemed off to me--that Kelsier would have to found and establish a dangerous Cosmere-wide organization and gain incredible knowledge of Rosharan politics and history, all from a different planet. It just seems implausible to me. But the clues are very strong. The fact that Kalak calls him "old Thaidakar" and seems to know him, though? That doesn't bode well for the theory. Iyatil was born in Silverlight in the cog realm and was part of the 17th shard, but Thaidakar is *her* master. How? What knowledge does Kel have the she does not? Hemalurgic knowledge? Is that the going currency? I think @Kingsdaughter613 does make an excellent point about the foreshadowing though--if it's not him, will this foreshadowing for the Cosmere-aware fans breed disappointment? That doesn't seem like a typically Brandon thing to do. To lay out clues and then not pursue them.

Good point. although perhaps with the bondsmith honorblade? Hmm.

Sorry for the double post, but... Still a Lucky Boy. Is he the only character in the entire cosmere now whose parents have survived intact and for so long? I can't think of any others...

Very good. Shallan progressed a lot in this book. I think her recognizing that Veil has always been her is the key advancement in her healing. I didn't count this as a level up, just because we didn't see a power up happen of any sort, but I think it's still very significant.

I always assumed that voice was like the ones that the other radiants hear re: "these words are accepted" either via Cultivation or the remnants of Honor (i.e., SF, and then Dalinar himself actually in part 5). Yes, I agree with this--and overall I really like this consolidation of what we know/don't know. Also finally makes that "Shallan a step above Kal" comment make more sense!! She has two bonds. But I think she still has to to figure out how to repair her prior bond, though, possibly by remembering the words she once spoke? Maybe some parallelism with Syl/Kal and the "I don't remember the words" when they were drifting apart?

If Rabionel is Lady of Wishes, I am assuming that He Who Quiets used to be El's name. As it seems Vyre is part of that, then perhaps the Fused was named Vyrel, originally?

I don't hate Lirin. He's trying to protect Kaladin in his own way, and has his own pain and guilt he's bearing for Tien's death, as we see in this book. He loves Kaladin, but much like Kal himself, he wants to protect him and can't understand why Kal won't just let him do that. No, he's not a brave man. But not everyone has to be brave. Most people aren't, particularly in the face of fear and despair. We saw our favorite Radiants having to deal with that same issue throughout this book, and they have the supernatural to help them understand and move forward. I pity Lirin, and I did hate how he lashed out at Kaladin. But it didn't make me hate him as a person, it made me understand him. He was scared and trying to do what he knew to keep people safe, and he thought he and Kal were on the same page and then--murder. And let's be honest, there was a grain of truth to what Lirin said to Kal at that moment--he *didn't* know that they were going to execute the Radiants, and indeed, they didn't at first. And he *did* put his whole family at risk, and they'd all be dead if it weren't for Venli/Leshwi's mercy. So, yeah, I'm going to say that this is way more grey for me than for others, but I've been saying that for awhile about their relationship--which I think was strengthened as I'd hoped in this book. They both understand each other much better.

Maybe if Odium wins, and Dalinar is "his" but still retains his bondsmith abilities, then he could force a new contract that released him. A game of chess, right?

I was really really shocked by that move, and by the epilogue. I did *not* expect T to take up the shard like that, at this point, and then to be able to wield it with such precision so quickly. Cultivation is truly the master cultivator. I cannot wait to get more of her.

I certainly hope you’re right that he makes it through, but I don’t know that her review precludes his death—she does say she’s grieved after all, and maybe she feels similarly to you about Adolin. Lol

No, I agree that we are supposed to see Kaladin's assumptions challenged, but not because "all is well", but because he has to let her be content with her choices, which, imho, is his real journey. He wants to protect people from themselves in the way he sees fit--sometimes he's right, but other times he's not. In that moment in OB he was trying to do that to her, and she was basically saying, "i'm not a damsel for you to save." Her character in WOK was always shades of grey--just like the Regency stuff, she knew her place and she knew that she could not interact with Kal like he wanted to because of rank. She also knew that Kal was above those other dark-eyed boys, when Kal didn't really get it. She knew when her father died how precarious her situation was, and I always interpreted her reaction to the younger Roshone's death as being a reaction to her future stability being wrested from her. I thus interpreted her marriage to the elder as a choice--under duress, sure, but one she made with clear-eyes that Kaladin couldn't possibly understand, just like he couldn't understand his father's choices either. That's the squeamishness-the transactional nature of it. Though I do agree that the age difference isn't at all harped on in the way I think it should be. In terms of the others you mention, yes the Siri/Susebron one is the worst. THE WORST. But I do love Warbreaker, and a love story, so I let it go. I feel like the other ones are characterized with more nuance--a growing appreciation for one another, etc. And remember that Sarene and Raoden fell for one another via letter, before they met, which complicates things too. I agree that his love stories are not always great, which is hilarious given my other love of romance, but Dalinar/Navani's relationship is kind of making up for some of it for me haha

Yes, brandon does love his arranged marriages trope. There's a great Shardcast where I think Grey talks about these relationships a lot. I highly recommend the entire episode. It's really even-handed. I think he's grown in his ability to write nuanced relationships as he's matured himself, and the Navani/Dalinar one is demonstrative of this. Let's see what else comes out of SA. But I have to say, I have a different feel for the Laral/Roshone marriage. I do not at aall see him framing it as "positive". I think everything we have seen demonstrates that our original squeamish read of it is spot on. Rather, I think it's less "see, everything is great" and more a testament of Laral's strength and resilience. It's more about her autonomy and story than her relationship with Roshone. People choose money and security and power all the time, and women no less than men do. Laral made that choice and was content with it, making the best of it. I think it's another demonstration of allowing women some more nuance in their relationships. I read a lot of regency romance (yes, my entire personality is basically fantasy and Jane Austen fan fiction lol), and arranged marriages are common. Not in the "you MUST marry this person or else" way, but the "marriage is a contract between families, so you owe it to your family to at least consider it." And Jane Austen's entire social commentary from that time was how few options for middle class and upper class women to have stability and freedom. I think that's what we see in SA quite a bit. I do look forward to the story of how Kal's parents got together though. Could be an interesting counterpoint.

If I had to select a single shard, that we currently know of, I'd probably choose Endowment. I love Nalthis and the magic system, and the intent--giving, gifts, etc.--fits me well. Although I do like cultivation/growth/change a lot too.