Ailvara

Cool theory, but doesn't fit the outline. Venli has POV in Part 1 which doesn't include Group 3. My current best guess is: Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Dalinar, Lirin Group 2: Shallan, Adolin Group 3: Renarin, Jasnah By popular assumption, Shallan and Adolin in Group 2. They have an arc set up that is very important to the plot (makes Group 3 less likely) but separate from the main conflict (makes Group 1 less likely), it doesn't look like they're joined by too many, if any, main characters (almost rules out Group 1) and they are both prominent in Part 1, with Shallan's POVs (which pretty much excludes Group 3). That leaves Kaladin, Navani and Venli in Group 1 since they have their POVs in Part 1 and come on, none of these is going to fall into tertiary plot in this book. I believe that for the moment Lirin fits perfectly the description of the very minor character with one POV in Group 1. He's also likely to stick around as a secondary character given he's coming to Urithiru and he's bound to have some interactions at least with Kaladin. That prevents him from being so minor that we should exclude him altogether and look for another slightly less minor character with one POV instead, which we don't have now anyway. In Group 1 I'm less sure about Dalinar, but it makes most sense to assume this group will be tied to everything around the main conflict, war, politics, Urithiru, arms race and so on, and I can hardly imagine him staying out of it. He appears in Part 1 without POV which would make him the second character of Groups 1 and 2 who doesn't have POVs yet (as we have 7 characters in these groups and 5 POVs in Part 1; Adolin being the second one). If Jasnah or Renarin becomes more involved in Part 1 later on, and it's about the main conflict, I may reconsider. Finally, Group 3, which I'm least sure of. Jasnah is going to have some chapters, so she should be included somewhere, but not many, which makes her fit Group 3 well enough. My best bet at who is the last character counted in the groups is Renarin, mostly due to his importance. Another possibility would be Szeth, but it looks like he only has an interlude, so he wouldn't be counted in any group after all, which leaves Renarin without decent competition. Having him interact with Jasnah a lot also makes sense. The biggest question is, since they will most likely stay close to Group 1, what could be so distinct about them that would make them a separate plotline. My theory is that, using Renarin's Truthwatcher powers and Jasnah's political instinct, they will be the ones to deal with Taravangian. They could also move from Urithiru to the warcamps and have some problems to deal with there, separated from Urithiru.

I bet even when Stormlight Archive is all finished there will still remain people speculating if back between OB and RoW, during a memory lapse, Shallan didn't hide her unborn baby in a special incubator fabrial and write fanfiction about the kid's wild adventures worldhopping around Cosmere. Eventually, he'll inherit lightweaving skills after his mum, go back in time and dye his hair white so that nobody can recognize him by the black-blonde-ginger mix.

TBH, I don't see Kal as surgeon anymore. His character arc is directed towards finding ways to protect people without making him kill other people. It would be very anticlimactic if it suddenly turned out that "haha, it's been what he was doing at the beginning of the book, full circle! Lirin was right all along, there is no other decent way to protect people!" Just... please don't. His struggles won't be resolved by this - in fact, they can even get worse. When he studied with his father, that's when his problems with responsibility and loss first emerged. If he has patients dying on his hands now, will it make it easier for him to accept the inevitable? If he couldn't come to terms with that back when he was their only hope, I can't imagine how he would suddenly do now in a world where people who can heal any wound actually exist and he's never going to be one of them. And he seems way over that part of his life too. Among all his conversations and thoughts there is never a hint that he misses being a surgeon or has any regrets about not being one whatsoever. He isn't sure who he wants to be, but he knows who he doesn't want to be. When he talks to his father, he is so confident when he says (paraphrasing): "no, you are the surgeon, I am something else". He isn't sure what this else is yet, but he knows that's what he needs to be - something else. I just reread a part of WoR where he wonders how he could probably ask Dalinar to make him a surgeon, but only in the context that his father would be disappointed, not in any way that he would want that.

It has been beaten to death, hasn't it? Just for clarity, the explicit choice was on part of "Shallan" with Veil and Radiant inclined towards Kaladin but pushed away and put in line. They do accept Adolin as "Shallan"'s husband and means of keeping her stable, but they don't have any warmer relationship with him themselves, right? These two things I believe are quite clearly stated and non-controversial. Then, in the end, it pretty much comes down to whether you consider Veil and Radiant parts of "whole" Shallan. If you believe the "real Shallan" has chosen Adolin, who sees her and so on, and she just created some people in her mind who don't care for him, they might still live happily ever after. But if you acknowledge that Veil is as much Shallan as "Shallan" is, well... then her choice starts to look fishy and promises nothing but trouble down her road to self-awareness. My little theory is that Veil and Radiant accept the state of things because they are afraid that, without Adolin, Shallan will literally "wilt/fade" as she's said, leaving the two of them alone and no longer balanced, at the threat of either disappearing too (in other words: reintegrating) or having Formless emerge to take the empty spot. We've seen Veil acting as a caretaker for "Shallan" and also how she's scared of Formless, which adds up. It might look on paper that he would have some good influence on her mental health. But we haven't seen it in practice so far. Damnation, she even created Radiant under his (unwitting) pressure in the first place! The fact that Shallan still does what she does (nurturing her insecurities, lying to herself and everyone etc) indicates that, whatever she needs now, she isn't getting it from Adolin. You could argue he "recognised" her and so stopped her erratic switching from one alter to another - but it can as easily be seen as him strengthening one of the alters at the expense of the other ones, and so enabling her fracturing (so it still comes down to whether you consider "Shallan" the only "real" alter or not). Some people also say she is better now than in OB. But the truth is, she is better than she was in late OB but kind of the same - or worse - as she was at the very end of it (the pre-wedding scene). Which means a year of love and safety didn't do much to let her heal, in the end. AFAIR these two uncertain arguments are the only ones given in text so far. I'm interested to see more if you've got any! Word of clarification: sure, at the moment the only people both Shallan and Kaladin should be seeing are their, sadly nonexistent, therapists. If I "ship" them it's because I think about it in the long-run, in the perspective that once they'll largely have dealt with their respective cans of worms.

You may consider him excellent all you want, but their relationship as a whole seems to be far from that. Ultimately, Shallan needs to face the truth(s) and here she is, trapped in her lies, scared to death her husband wouldn't love her if he really knew her, unable to ever fully embrace all facets of herself since the rest of them barely accept the guy (and mutually). Sounds just perfect. That's what happens when you get married without even talking through any important stuff.

I think, given the parallels, we need to see the intro-finale gut punch for Shallan first, and then Venli.

Ever since that interlude people keep saying Kaladin is back to being a surgeon for a time. But the actual wording is: This doesn't say anything about him actually going down that path, it's only Syl speculating about options again. As for the chapter, storms. Even with vaguely knowing what was coming it hit hard.

She was a person made of an inscrutable mix of truth and lies long before OB disassociation. The whole problem is, in order to be an 'unbroken' person Shallan took a shortcut and buried her memories. What she truly needs to do is to be a person who remembers her whole trauma and then still keeps going. Whoever that person turns out be, needs to be a mix of both how she's been influenced by the darkness inside her and how she would stand up to it. It won't be the same sassy girl from WoK - and she doesn't necessarily even want to be that: Her humor and wit was a coping mechanism destined to keep her family together and keep her safe in the first place. I can imagine deep down she somewhat hates it for that. I... don't understand. Of course, it is all Shallan. Some alters got in the split more of her 'core' personality and some more of her coping mechanisms but 'Shallan', Veil, Radiant and Formless are all Shallan. That's exactly why she can't just take back her abilities from them and run. They are not separate people: So no, she didn't just create Veil and Radiant - she split into 'Shallan', Veil and Radiant. How good we can finally rely on real-world DID to settle things like that. She did have a reason. She knew, even if deep, deep down, that she already created the first (or, as we call it here, 4th) alter long ago as a child. That she buried the part of her identity and personality that had anything to do with her mother's murder. There are hints of that in WoR already e.g. WRT to her drawing. She always knew. As for her being unreliable narrator, sure. She is unreliable, for example, when she says that she's accepted her pain and that she doesn't deserve it (see chapter 8; chapter 9 makes it clear she accepted neither). The problem with 'Shallan' being fakest is that it's been hinted at numerous times and not only through Shallan's words: As for 'magical construct with ontological distinctness', I've already addressed that. Yes, she needs to remember, not in order to see how terrible she is, but in order to embrace it, accept it, forgive herself and go on. Same as Dalinar had to accept his guilt in order to become properly freed of it. You can't move on if you just keep running away. You're still assuming here 'Shallan' is some main and true persona and the rest of alters are made-up. This is not how DID works. This would all be just right if not for this assumption. But as it is, yes, she absolutely needs to accept that 'Shallan' is a lie but it doesn't mean she'll go looking for her true personality somewhere. It's all there in her fractured self already. 'Shallan' on her own doesn't even need redemption - without accepting Formless, the 'frenzied child who had murdered her mother' as part of herself, there is nothing there to redeem.

So happy to see more and more evidence towards what we've been saying since the end of OB - and more people realizing it. I'm even happy many still disagree, otherwise I'd feel like Brandon has made things way too obvious. Can't wait for her to start living her true life. It's bound to get deliciously messy before she does though. IKR? Just compare Shallan clinging to Adolin and smelling his shirt to how lovingly Navani thinks of Dalinar. Brandon can do it, he just chose not to. High five. The question remains, what will Adolin do once he realizes this. Or Shallan once she truly faces this. It's not like he and "the rest of her" seem married or in love in any way.

Well, both the existence of the 4th alter that terrifies Shallan and the fact that 'Shallan' is the fakest of them all has just been spelled out:

In book 5 - who knows (though I think he's got greater things in store for him ). But the fact that he'll survive this one is confirmed (and not even considered a spoiler apparently) - here's the wob I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly: That said, we're definitely up for a major defeat, if it's not in this book then the next one will be... interesting.

I think it's highly unlikely Dalinar will die in this book. He was supposed to be the flashback character for the 5th one originally (I know, Eshonai... but this is very different, he couldn't get such development after death, come on). Also Brandon said he'd like him on the cover of the last book, that it would fit, I also vaguely remember him telling there's going to be more Dalinar in book 5 than 4 but I'm not sure about this last one.

You completely missed the "with the added self-awareness part, which makes all the difference. Also no, she isn't supposed to discard Veil and Radiant, they were part of Shallan in WoK which is exactly my point.

I think what I've written - that Shallan will reintegrate but remain very fragile and always be at risk of spiraling down again given another distress - is about in line with what you're saying. The difference is that you believe that such state of fragile reintegration would be too subtle for readers to realize. Either I believe in Brandon's ability more (with the help from his DID-suffering betas) or care less about what inattentive readers think. I also understand you care more personally about how it'll land and so would like him to choose the "safer" path in that regard. I think it's also crucial that Shallan didn't start her journey split as she is now. I find it hard to imagine she'd end up the series in a worse place than she started. Given the analogy to Kaladin and how he'll always suffer from his depression - he had it even before Tien's death and all that followed. I think he'll achieve more or less that state of mind by the end but with progress in the related areas, e.g. resilience to losing those he feels responsible about. So similarly Shallan, her benchmark isn't end of OB from which she needs to make a progress - her benchmark is WoK so she should end up similarly stable mentally (as we know today and not as we'd know when only starting WoK) but with all the added self-awareness. Edit: One more think that came to my mind is, even though Brandon will tweak the details, he wouldn't change some major things as a result of this "shift of direction". For example, whatever he's got planned as Lightweaver's 5th Ideal, I don't think he'd change it. And given "I am law" we can expect not another precise truth about Shallan's past but something very vague, encompassing, summing up all previous Ideals. "I am me" or "I am Shallan, and Veil, and Radiant, and that frenzied child who killed her mother" something of the sorts. She's already aware of being each of these separately now so what's left is for her to become aware of being them all as one.

Like you've said, we must agree to disagree. Unlike most real-world unresolved discussions, I hope we'll get answer one way or another eventually and so will be able to close it. Wow, that's a thorough analysis! Even though I don't agree with everything, I appreciate it. It also let me see why you don't agree with mine - this looks more like poetical symbolism than foreshadowing. If that's what you see in the wine/alters then I understand - such things are so volatile and open to interpretation where no answer is right or wrong. I just see the symbolism of 4 wines-4 alters as more grounded because it's a 1 to 1 allegory with no threads to add or remove. I agree the "sweet" part is confusing - I'm thinking maybe it's irrelevant to this particular topic but needs to be there for that "second" hidden meaning but I'm not sure. Edit: Let's look at the whole paragraph: So the "sweet" here is not necessarily for its own sake. It's the consequence of "fermented from a fruit, not a grain". Veil was created before Shallan fully splitting but after her possible split in her childhood. So the child, "original/pre-trauma Shallan" would be a grain here and the grown-up "WoR Shallan" a fruit and "rescued before the kingdom fell" can refer to the fact that Veil was created before she started spiraling down after speaking her 4th truth and so is more true to the source than Radiant. "I would guess it an Alethi vintage" - Veil was made to look like Alethi, unlike Shallan who has ginger (orange) hair.

There's a difference between functional and healthy. Having multiple people in one mind doesn't have to be crippling. It may not always be possible - or indispensable - to heal it. But it is still something to be talked about in terms of healing. If it was someone with a physical chronic condition, I don't think we'd have much misunderstanding here. Such person may take medicine that let them lead a completely normal life and yet will never be considered completely healthy because they still need that medicine. An alcoholic also will always be an alcoholic even if they never have a beer in their life again, because that unhealthy coping mechanism is still in their psyche and if they did have that one beer they could spiral down again so quickly. There's also a difference between stigmatizing and acknowledging something as unhealthy. Is it fair to treat that someone with chronic condition or that someone who got out of alcoholism as if they were a ticking bomb, refuse to employ them or be friends with them? No. But it also doesn't mean we should try to persuade the first one to stop taking their medicine because "they seem completely fine and surely don't need it" or invite the second one to a night of heavy drinking. This is what treating them as healthy would mean! So, in terms of Shallan, I think she'll reintegrate but it won't be all sunshine and unicorns either. She'll still be at heavy risk of splitting again at any moment. Given another difficult moment her alters will start peeking out again, only she'll be better equipped to get out of that sooner.

The way I understood it was that the problem with interpreting this scene as symbolic is for you that: 1) For characters to convey a hidden meaning it's necessary for them in-world to know about that meaning, and: 2) That Brandon doesn't make direct remarks that are primarily intended for the reader and not for something in-world. This is what these examples prove. They don't need to be identical to do that. This isn't this scenario. This is character A and character B talking together and not just talking. Veil drinks a very specific wine. Shallan drinks a very specific wine. And Shallan decides not to drink a very specific wine. Half of what happens in this scene would be completely coincidental if not for this hidden meaning and if something isn't in Brandon's style it's coincidence. Why in the world would showing an opinion of a character be required to create foreshadowing? It can be as simple as using a very specific word or phrase in a description instead of any other one that would convey the same thing literally. It can be delivered in the form of mirroring arcs when we already know what happened in Story 1, see that some similar things happening in Story 2 and so infer what will happen further in Story 2. It can be anything at all that on reread makes you think "oh, it was hinted at here"! Also, why would foreshadowing be about what happens in the future? It only needs to be about what will be revealed in the future. In this case, that Veil is the most "clear/uninfluenced" part of Shallan, Radiant the "idealized" one and 'Shallan the "fake/superficial" one. For me it's been obvious for a while but many people still claim 'Shallan' is the real one and the rest she should get rid of. This is what the surface of OB ending has suggested. What this scene foreshadows is the moment when this will be proven wrong once and for all.

Call it symbolism, foreshadowing, easter eggs or anything else - it's the very essence of his style. Sometimes it is more tied in-world, sometimes it's just like this, a character saying something prophetic while they themselves have no idea. This would be the biggest one of this particular kind yet but the idea itself has always been there. Some quick examples from Mistborn: As for bigger things, Wit's epilogue about nature of art is a direct wink-wink to the reader, much closer to breaking the 4th wall than this scene. Same with e.g. the interlude about the ardent reading romance stories which is a fan tease referring to Shalladin/Shadolin shipping wars. All in all, you can definitely spot Brandon passing information "behind the back" of his characters.

Ialai doesn't know about Shallan's personas but Brandon does so nothing stops him from inserting another layer of meaning into this conversation. What I'm seeing is (though can't take credit for spotting that): - Veil's wine: "clear", the winemakers took "great care to remove the rinds" to reveal "what was truly inside." - Shallan's wine: "bland and flavorless", "weak", "powerless", "a hint of something wrong", "perfect for people who want to maintain appearances before others", a good-looking package to an inferior wine, a creation to be eventually discarded - Third wine (Radiant is left): "perfect", "wonderful" and unique - Fourth wine (fitting the discussion on Shallan's fourth secret identity): "invisible", "deadly", meant for Shallan ("I believe this is yours") but one she doesn't want to touch

@agrabes @Karger that much is clear in the other parts of the conversation. I was more interested in the symbolism WRT which alter drinks which wine.

I'm curious what you guys think about the wine scene from the new chapter:

With plateau, yes. With her having made progress - not so much. I've finally found the quote. The thing is, it's not what Wit told her. It's what she hears when touching Ashertmarn, imagining maybe it could be Wit's voice... but it's all so twisted, accompanied by lines that are clearly Odium-influenced too:

I could take it figuratively if not for the "without you, I'm fading" in OB. Two instances is starting to be too much for a coincidence. She does. Another way. Life before death, journey before destination and so on. Elhokar also needed to be dealt with because he was a bad king at the worst possible times coming and yet a terrible answer to it was to even to sit and wait for others to do the dirty job, not to mention finishing him personally. Knights Radiant clearly aren't supposed to take the easy way out. Dalinar has shown it again in you cannot have my pain and even though Shallan doesn't swear oaths, the first one applies to her as much as to anyone. There's a world of difference between a spy and an assassin. Oh yes, it will be hard. But why making her integrate must mean: "you must do it too"? Why can't it mean: "you could do it too if you want" or "that was her journey, you can have another" or any other thing in the world? She spiraled down in OB and now she's supposed to have gotten much better off-screen only to spiral down again? This makes no sense dramaturgically. This is one long spiral and she's just in a "local optimum" and now she'll need to reach the very bottom to get out of it and be able to progress further. Besides, her arc and Kaladin's are strongly paralleled, here and there throughout the series and also now in this RoW beginning, with their chapters so intertwined without any plot-related connection. They are both still struggling with the same issues that they did at the end of OB and earlier and I'm pretty sure we'll see them both hit the rock bottom somewhere in the middle of this book and rise back to swear their next oaths near the end. I think we're seeing here a beautiful contrast-parallel when Kaladin is clearly even worse from the start and Shallan is for now seems-okeish-but-something's-off only to show next she's after all in a very similarly dark point. Well, we'll find out soon enough. There are tensions there that will need to be addressed sooner or later. I think, if Shallan/Veil/Radiant remain a mix until the very end, it'll be like Veil in WoR - consciously applied masks over one core personality.

Maybe Szeth starts his arc in prison because he guards/interrogates Moash there?