Ailvara

I don't think it'd make sense in his arc so far. He's come a long way and still has a lot ahead in the same direction. He'll struggle some with who the bad guys are, but Odium won't be a part of the grey area. There's also this: Well, I don't know who would possibly be happy naming their son a champion of Odium. That made me think of Adolin again. A duelist (champion) and a general. Odium is also quite fond of Alethi highprinces.

@BraidedRose you're right, and I want to add to that as well. He said what he did, but never acknowledged he did anything wrong plus he didn't face any consequences. In fact, the only consequence was that he got to dodge another piece of responsibility that he didn't want, which was becoming the king. You could say he was almost rewarded.

I got the feeling that it's more about Kaladin needing a romantic interest, not Jasnah. At least this discussion usually pops out in "Kaladin's love life" and related threads, and Jasnah isn't much shipped with anybody else.

Well, my money is on either Moash or Adolin. I think Dalinar, Venli, Szeth, Kaladin and Renarin are all mostly past their dark phases and will be on average on their road up from now on. I can't see any evidence for Jasnah. Shallan is a possibility, but it feels odd, she has other problems anyway. Moash is more obvious of the two, which is a part of why I don't like it. Also, he's a little piece of crem, so I don't want him to be a truly important figure, even a bad one. I hope Odium will just use him to kill some heralds and then spit him out. There are nice pieces of foreshadowing in favour of Adolin. The bright light in the vision corresponds to his name. He's born under the sign of nine. His lack of remorse for killing Sadeas and dodging responsibility contradicts Dalinar defying Odium by doing the exact opposite. He needs some character development. The eyes of the champion are familiar to Dalinar (they may be his own, but why not have it both ways). Shallan and Evi's death are both ticking bombs capable of pushing Adolin in interesting directions.

The thing is, I don't think she talks all about her betrothal there. She is more unhappy about Shallan neglecting her ward's duties and she seems to think, that stability with Adolin would help her with that. And being the kind of person she is, I think she actually believes creating a proper environment for pursuing serious activities is in the best interest of Shallan and romance plays a serving role in this respect. I'd use such a litmus paper here: if Jasnah was in the place of Shallan (as she knows it), what would she rather do? Follow her desire for passionate eyes and let herself be distracted, or choose a good, non-disturbing guy who gives her position and resources and go on doing her duty? The same goes for Navani, really; she doesn't know any reason for Shallan not to marry and she is not one to wait needlessly herself. As for Jasnah's hidden motives, she can't marry off all the new radiants to her family, and Shallan is already quite bound to her as it is. Basically, I see both her and Navani's attitude as one of the concerned mothers rather than manipulating politicians. They're horribly wrong, but that's what mothers sometimes are.

Has he done anything similar to stop Dalinar from falling? I haven't noticed, if that change of the future is on Cultivation's behalf only, or if he had something to do with it. In the end, Cultivation's interference happened long ago enough to be already included in shaping the vision of the possible futures.

I mostly agree with what you've said, but I don't believe either Navani or Jasnah did anything in bad faith. Navani has no idea of Shallan's internal struggles, she only knows she agreed to the causal and seemed quite happy ever since. Jasnah has some insight, but on the other hand, she is a creature of reason and I think she genuinely believes Adolin is alright for Shallan while at the same time, her knowledge of Shallan's dilemmas is insufficient and she is ignoring her deeper feelings and dilemmas as something she considers a passing and unreasonable fancy. It's the same as with Adolin, really. He wants the best even if accidentally stabilizing Shallan's fracturing.

I haven't actually thought about it being a mimicry of something not in-world... I suppose a SA reference would make more impact, but who knows really. The suggestions that have been discussed are Dalinar-Navani-Gavilar, Odium-Cultivation-Honor and, most supported right now as far as I know, Evi-Dalinar-Navani.

I'm out of upvotes again, sorry. This is the second time we get poked in this direction, once per book. I think there is either one we missed in WoK (it'd be tough without Veil, but maybe there's something there) or we'll get third one in the next book right before it all goes off, for the sake of symmetry.

It doesn't contradict, but it's a contrast. She can be happy, but first she needs to deal with her hurting for it to be true. For now she is happy partly because she continues to keep things in the back of her head. She took a shortcut which can backfire sooner or later.

Having two main characters together only because they're main is bad. Not having them together only because they're main is worse. It simply shouldn't matter. Why would a love interest be a secondary character by definition? And the trope with two characters starting hating each other - the way it usually works is that the animosity serves as a tension creator right until the two characters suddenly realise they're madly in love with each other. Shallan and Kaladin having a pretty long period of respect and friendship in between is more a subversion of the trope than anything else. I don't know if I agree, but I don't disagree on this: Adolin is what Shallan needs right now (or she thinks so at least). I can't help but think that the real "person of flaring passion" Shallan will be bored with him in the long run after she reintegrates and solves her issues. You can find meta-evidence sometimes (spotting patterns for the way the author develops relationships, WoB on the triangle resembling another one). More often, you can find evidence to supporting arguments - for example, to the fact that only 1/3 of Shallan is making the decision to get married. Once you get enough of these, the relationship theory can be proved as well as any other kind (which is, never with 100% certainty). Who should end up with who is subjective, who will end up with who is not. True, but he makes the alterations early. He said he writes a few chapters to discovery his characters, then tweaks the outline accordingly, then writes again. This is why there were different characters in place of Kaladin and Shallan at first, but what we have now is planned. The foreshadowing we mean aren't primarily the scenes where they interact, think about each other or seem to have connection etc. It's about things that are tinier or even more meta and continue all until the end of OB. Shallan sitting when talking to Adolin and standing seeing Kaladin (tied to Wit's advice). Sapphire dress for the wedding. Pattern getting pulled out of her grip. Shallan essentially living Tyn's black scenario. Stuff like this. Shallan-part of her decides she wanted Adolin. Veil and Radiant are "put in line" but not exactly happy. So what happens once she reintegrates - which she has to do? The last bit is in bold to highlight how this differs (again) from what Wit has told her ("it's alright to hurt"). We didn't exactly spend 60 pages of ASK thread whining about which pair would have prettier babies. There's a ton of stuff, plotlines and character development that is tied to this, for better or for worse.

It did work for some time. I wouldn't be surprised if they did it precisely to have a temporary band-aid at the end of book 5 and then come up with something better until book 10. In that case, they would only be tormented for about fifteen years, and later possibly continue to enjoy immortality and other perks without any more desolations. Sounds like a good deal.

I think it will be as it has been - Kaladin will be a part of their issues, but on the level of Shallan's head only, without his actual involvement. I am now watching the creative writing videos as a background for my work, and I need to share another lovely piece: https://youtu.be/Ww3VhMxxJNA?list=PLPdJIpbJfgiR-pZysJ7nM9TjiJ-X-MH1Q&t=303

I understood it more like we were put in the position of Syl. That we should see evidence that Shallan has made her decision, but there's something wrong with it. And if she's unconvinced, we can be as well. I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

The Polish version would be cool for that because the endless word forms allow for little ambiguity - all ofc assuming, that the translator consulted it all well with Brandon. Unfortunately, OB translation is divided into two parts and for now, I can only check the first two pieces of the ketek. The only thing that I can see clarified is that "united" refers to those who sing and "new beginnings" are sung. Not surprising, but I guess we could try to interpret it somewhat differently. I'll let you know more in April. @Dreamstorm My mind was blown when I first noticed that as well. I wouldn't necessarily interpret the OB part titles with regard to ASK (especially Unity has so many meanings there), though maybe it is a part of it... It was written for the wedding after all. So I wonder if it's somewhat a coincidence, that the wedding ketek turned out to be also the right one for chapter titles, or if he actually meant for the romantic storyline to be that important. Maybe a mix of both. I should be able to see it; I couldn't agree more. Except that I am just still not seeing it. Kind of like I didn't see the actual wedding. I can't help but wonder if Sanderson wants us to not see it, wants us to doubt, wants us to question, and wants us to call foul. That's actually from full book reactions, but I absolutely love this as a piece of foreshadowing/fourth wall breaking. EDIT By now I can't help but get extremely suspicious when someone uses question marks (Shallan hearing Wit's? voice, Kaladin feeling acceptance? and so on)

I've just found another quote that I don't think we've had here: (Storms I'm never going to get over it if these things continue to pop up.) I like how it shows Kaladin is not the only one that gets the cheer-up boost.

Perhaps... But I think false trails are usually those more obvious ones, and tiny hints are better for actual foreshadowing. What I mean is, that this sort of red herring is quite useless. Half of the readers won't even notice it and it doesn't build up for a good plot twist, it'd be pure trolling in my opinion. I would sooner see a false trail in a character that is visibly going evil and then turn his arc on its head, it simply works better as a surprise. So the only way I see this working as a false trail, is if we get more clear evidence for Adolin turning to Odium, and then it gets resolved with him staying good. This would be very much like Dalinar's storyline, and it worked GREAT. But I don't think we'll see it again in the same form... However, a twisted mirroring version? Just think of it, that would actually be quite awesome. They are already set up as opposites. Adolin is sweet and good, young Dalinar was a monster. Dalinar almost fell to guilt, Adolin doesn't feel one for the murder at all. I'd really like the structure where they would both go the same path in opposite directions. Disclaimer: I like Adolin. I'm not suggesting he'll turn evil, because I don't like him. I'm suggesting it, because I genuinely think this would make a fascinating story.

This still bothers me. I don't believe in this sort of coincidence in Brandon's books. He could have given him any other sign or leave it altogether if he wasn't sure what to do with it.

On the God level, yes. On the human level, however, it is healthier not to hold the grudge even if it's justified (so forgive, though maybe not forget and be fooled twice). This is actually very interesting philosophically, but I don't want to go too offtopic. Exactly. I can actually remember justifying another character(s) (from a different story) based on "this is the society they live in and they don't know any better". But maybe we've just had enough decent lighteyes' in SA to assume, that not being a jerk to darkeyes' is something that could cross her mind as well. And Laral was friends with Kaladin; if essentially growing up with him wasn't enough for her to see that the darkeyed are just as good people as she is, then I need to question either her good will or intelligence.

Even if you knew you've done worse things to that person? Not to mention the co-owner of the house? I would feel guilty enough to swallow the comment about the floor. I have this character flaw, that I forgive anyone who sincerely apologises and rarely someone who doesn't That guy was awesome, such a funny scene!

More like, "Hi Kal, I'm glad you're not dead. / I know we didn't part on best terms, but it's been a long time, can we forget about it? / It's not cool to beat my husband, but he had it coming so let's leave it. / Are you going to help us with rebuilding?" sth of the sorts

I don't get Laral. I thought Brandon couldn't be blunter with sinking this ship, making it absolutely clear, that neither of them has any feelings at all for each other. I mean, he can always get a scuba diving rescue team, but then why bother with it in the first place. What annoys me most about Laral, is that she not only doesn't even give a hint that she regrets anything. No, instead she goes straight on to judging Kal. I mean, seriously, she was so mean to him and now the first thing she can think of is that he ruined her floor? And she can suddenly forget everything Roshone did and instead concentrate on how terrible Kaladin is because he punched him once for good reason? How far can you go with double standards?? I am especially bitter about this ship because I kind of liked it before OB...

This is actually a great idea! I think SA fandom is more active on AO3. I promise to leave kudos.

Absolutely, go for it! I think anything that is relevant to the discussion, and we have discussed WoR as well I actually wouldn't go so far as to say that Adolin wouldn't like realShallan. The bigger problem is, that she doesn't believe he would and so she hides her. That might change, but the longer she lies, the more difficult it's going to be to untangle it and after a year of marriage... I don't know. To me personally, to admit after such time that I have been lying to my SO all along, it would be much, much more difficult and stressful than telling it at the stage of relationship Shallan and Adolin are in OB. That's actually the part of how she crafted a perfect bride for him, isn't it? Not just losing her passion because of general diminishing herself, but possibly subconsciously specifically ripping out a part of her that doesn't go so well with Adolin. Again, he could accept it, but she doesn't give him this chance and when the whole lie falls apart at some point it just can be too much and too late. I'll be closing the document soon, PM me with your emails if you want to continue editing, comments will be open to everyone. I have just one suggestion, that we should use the comments as "to add" notes. One or two comments to clarify that not everybody agrees is perfectly fine, but let's not move the discussion out from this topic to the document, because 1) it'll simply take too much space 2) not everyone may see it and get involved in time. If you see, that some point is controversial, let's discuss it here and then post its summary as a correction.

Constructive criticism is always good! I wouldn't be able to convincingly make a case for Shadolin myself, but if you feel this point of view should be represented, feel free to add a section. Out of curiosity, which quotes did you interpret in the opposite way? Actually, I get it how realShallan can be confusing. It could reference Shallan as she is before fracturing, ie WoK and WoR. But I guess I went more with the person buried inside of her due to her mental wounds, as it is likely the endgame for her, especially after we recently discussed this: So I'm not sure yet whether to just clarify that or introduce a third Shallan into the mix (one that is whole but still has stuff buried deep inside her). So yes, we do see glimpses of this whomSheCouldBeAndPossiblyWillBeShallan (damnation, somebody better come up with a better name), but she never emerges for long enough and I don't think Adolin notices, though that is debatable. I mean, everybody acts OOC sometimes, but without knowing her history it'd be impossible to realize, that these glimpses are actually realShallan and not just random... moods.