Ailvara

He did have a way of knowing:

Interesting. It'll be super difficult to manage that respectfully, I think. Shallan is bound to make some progress mentally - I think we can all agree it won't make any sense if she finishes the first 5 books in the same place as she is now. So sure, she's got plenty to deal with aside from the alters - only they aren't really aside. Her trauma and, consequently, truths she needs to embrace, are the very root cause of her splitting. If she does deal with this root cause, her situation with alters will improve tons as well. According to what I've read, this is actually the way to treat patients with DID - to work on their trauma and if that's successful, then the alters that came to life in order to shield from that trauma are no longer necessary. If she was a complete mess at this moment, then perhaps coming to terms with her past would let her improve enough to achieve balance with the alters and be functional. However, since she's in pretty much as good a spot as she can be without reintegrating, then there isn't really anywhere else to go than reintegration once she remembers and comes to terms with her past. There are also some red flags starting to pop out - from the top of my head: Shallan literally can't live without Adolin nearby Veil is apparently a cold-blooded murderer now Hard to imagine we won't see any more of them or the consequences. Also, let's not forget Hoid and "I see only one woman there - the one who is standing" (paraphrased). This would be quite odd dramatically if we were given such a clear indication of what Shallan should aim at and then never see her get there.

But these points are not exclusive! Adolin doesn't currently have any arc or development worthy of a major character... but yes, at the same time he's got the perfect subtle set of traits that have only been an occasional tool so far but together point towards something interesting (and dark). Given his personality and history he's perfectly capable of doing something reckless with terrible consequences, being manipulated to do so by someone smarter (e.g. Taravangian) and/or choosing to solve personal problems over what's morally right (Sadeas' murder). Add to it the fragile situation with Shallan, the feeling of being left out and disappointment with Dalinar (over killing Evi) and if he's not in the most Anakin-like situation I've seen in years then I don't know who is.

AFAIK blackouts are common but not required to diagnose DID. Still, Shallan did have some memory lapses in WoR, maybe it was something that stopped once she formed full alters that she's aware of or maybe we just haven't seen it happen again yet.

I'm not an expert by any means either, but by quick research: So much for sticking to one persona and making sure the others don't disturb. By various sources I've read, the best approach is to deal with the root cause - mainly, make sure the person regains their full memories and consciousness (including trauma that caused the split) and put that to therapy. Then reintegration can naturally follow. Knowing Shallan's order, it's exactly what she needs to do anyway. I think you've misunderstood my point. Both the 'wilting' and 'fading' wording suggest that she's not just distressed when not getting proper care, she literally starts to disappear. You may dismiss it as just a misunderstood hint (well, two consistent hints) but I'm pretty sure we'll yet get back to that with more proof later.

I think we are. I was going to leave it at that as I generally agreed, but then this came out: Unlike most people I don't think it's a romantic sign but rather proof that 'Shallan 3' is the mask created on top of whatever was left of 'Shallan 1' first for Shallan's father/family, then maintained for Adolin. In other words, so much else has leaked out to Veil and Radiant that at this point she can barely exist without him as point of reference. It's also not the first time we hear about it ('Without you, I fade' in OB).

Our misunderstandings stem from the fact that there are too many Shallans. The WoK and early-mid WoR 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 2') is not the same as end-of-OB 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 3'). And that's because of exactly what you're saying - she's pushing things to Veil and Radiant. So yes, all those bad jokes, roguish behaviour and the rest, it was part of 'Shallan 2' - but is no longer part of current 'Shallan 3'. So where did I miss 'Shallan 1'? Here she is: Look, she's not at all relaxed here, and still she's most true to the most deep-down, nearly subconscious part of herself! Being out of control, that's an even better indication of what you're really hiding inside than being in a comfortable environment. One more: So yes, Veil and Radiant are coping mechanisms but so is 'Shallan 2' - the old coping mechanism she used after the trauma of killing her mother. She pushes away the parts that hurt too much, keeps the safe ones - still quite a bit, enough to eventually be distributed between Veil/Radiant/'Shallan 3'. Then adds on top some 'cautious Vorin society training' and the 'timidness' to hide from any next danger. Now, the problem is, 'Shallan 3' eventually gets an uneven share of 'Shallan 1'. And that's because she got all that 'added on top' part. She is the timid one, she is the well-behaved Vorin lady while Veil has more of her personality that wasn't crafted for the sake of survival, just always there. It doesn't even need to be fake. Just containing less truth than you would in either comfortable situation - or one when you'd not control yourself. So yeah, even if you don't tell one lie, you'll leave out the fact that your newly-met colleague's political views are absolutely ridiculous to you, won't you? A desire to feel ok is not the same as feeling ok. Ok, I'll try one last metaphor and I'm giving up - let's go back to those body parts, shall we. The brain is a more substantial to who you are than hair. They both exist. They are both parts of your body. But one you can remove and still be almost the same person as you were and another you can't. How did we just go from completely disagreeing to thinking exactly the same? I must have misunderstood.

No. If you want a metaphor: the way you behave when you're alone or with close friends is more true than the way you behave when you go networking to a business party full of strangers. Or, the way you fall to the ground and cry after you've experienced a trauma is more true that putting on a smile on your face and tell everyone that you're fine while you're dying inside. That's what 'Shallan' is. A coping mechanism, a person who never experienced those terrible things that happened to her. Plus a well-crafted "perfect daughter", then proper vorin lady. These traits are part of Shallan but not a deep core of her personality. So Veil isn't the whole truth either because she lacks that. But still more true than 'Shallan'. The fact that she remembers, while Shallan doesn't, reinforces that.

Not more important. Not more convenient. Not more preferable. More true.

She doesn't only say that giving up on Shallan would be easier. She specifically explains: Veil was too real, too vital. It's mentioned elsewhere as well, by Mraize I think? Essentially, Veil is at least three times described as "more real" in the books (the third one being one of her squires IIRC) EDIT Here's the quote:

I think we mostly did. She could hardly have killed a third parent. She's again suppressing the truths she's already spoken.

Yep, for example by running himself through with a certain blade holding the power of a herald and becoming Roshar's first (?) and OP Inquisitor. For the record, I very much don't want that to happen, but it looks probable.

Now the big question remains, what is it that he's planning to do, that will take a few books and make Shalladin shippers very pleased while all this still being resolved, but the hints for Shalladin not confirmed to be in our heads... It makes my head spin honestly. Also, still, much more than Shalladin being tossed out, it concernes me that Shallan at the end of OB is considered one capable of making any sustainable decisions.

@king of nowhere It's not about him controlling those emotions. It's about the fact, that too often he simply doesn't have them. And I don't feel like he's just sane and stable either. He actually lacks some reactions a healthy person would usually have. His stability is actually not entirely normal.

The thing is, there has never been much canon evidence that Adolin would get a significant arc. I think the expectations stemmed from two things mainly: murder of Sadeas and readers' sympathy for the character. My theory is, that the first will be addressed later, with more impact (hopefully, I've been looking forward to it). As for the second, having a likeable character has nothing to do with promising them a compelling arc - in fact, such characters are most usually left in the background. Adolin's arc in OB is in line with his arc in WoK and WoR - nothing more, nothing less. And if that's not enough, there's a ton of WoBs that clarify Adolin's meant to be a relatively simple, supporting character. I think Brandon was as clear about it as reasonably possible without spoilering. And still, he added those scenes for the readers' sake, just not so many so that it would become fanfiction. He didn't do that with the SKA.

I kind of like Adolin as a person, but I don't like him as a character, and after OB this second part started to dominate. The fact that he doesn't get much development isn't exactly the main reason - it's ok given he's secondary/tertiary/whatever. First, I have less of a problem with Adolin than with his storyline. It annoys me how everything turns out for the best for him. He got the looks, wealth, power, relatively decent family (except for young Dalinar, obviously, but he doesn't know half of it anyway), talent and pleasant personality, and now he also got the girl, Get Out of Jail Free card and hopes for Radiance on top of it all. Even when the world is ending, his life is as bright and shiny as it gets. Given what the other characters go through, he stands out as the monument of Life Is Not Fair. The problem I have with Adolin more personally is actually connected to that. He's never bothered. He had some worries about Dalinar in WoK, and then got a moment with Sadeas, but that's pretty much it - and it's been a while. I know he's meant to light up the mood, but there are... limits. He murdered a guy? Fine with it. He needs to re-establish his place in the era of wonders? Oh, well, I guess they're awesome. A family member dies? I'll think about it later. My father is going to die? I'll worry a bit (?) but less than Kaladin. My fiancee likes another guy? Well, understandable. Oh, she doesn't? Ok then, let's get married. It makes me want to smack him upside the head to finally get some reaction.

When I read your posts, I totally see how it's possible to see it either way. In-world. But what makes me sway towards the "unresolved" side is the odd mix of Brandon's attitude to writing and our reactions. One WoB that I recall is that he would never make a triangle other than with an obvious outcome. There was a poll after WoR where the predictions for Shadolin and Shalladin were 50/50. A spectacular stormup. If it was unintentional. Then, we know he pays attention to the promises made in the books. There was another WoB recently about how Shadesmar arc was tweaked because of that - it was a fairly minor thing. ASK is a much bigger one, and it turned out to be an empty bubble whose grand finale about 1/3 of people here didn't buy. It would be very easy to leave it out altogether. Or to resolve it better, adding a few lines of thoughts from the characters and building up to it gradually. So it's another spectacular stormup... If it's unintentional. One last WoB I recall at the moment is that Brandon actually took quite good care of the triangle business and was adjusting it using the beta feedback. So I find it very unlikely that he didn't see these stormups coming. Unless, of course, it's all intentional.

We've had a lot of opinions and even arguments on this one. So many, that I am really curious about the one thing that in all this noise we very much still don't have: statistics. Please vote. Don't feel obliged to comment why you chose what you did (in some cases it might be better not to, especially if you have a very strong opinion on the topic). I'd like to keep it as cold and mathematical as possible in order not to discourage input from any side, but to see the full picture. I know I'm opening a can of worms, but I hope we can avoid a cremstorm until we get some results, including the voices that are usually not so loud.

Challenge accepted. My current headcanon is Kwak Dong Yeon:

And we got to the conclusion that this cannot be (the end). Which I stand by Haha, if any of these turns out to be a broken promise, it'd probably indeed be better if both do. For the sake of balance in both the story and discussion.

Edit: you've managed to change the topic as I was typing xD but there it is: I'm a bit conflicted on this one. I hate the thought of Adolin becoming a Radiant. For three reasons. First, he already has all perks and privileges a person can have apart from Radiancy. If he gets also that, it'll be too much. Second, at this (rather late) point in the story, given current scope of the whole series and Adolin's pagetime, it's unlikely we'd get a huge Maya revival arc. If it happens, it won't be anything too long or complicated. To me, it would diminish the struggle other characters had to go through. They started really low and gradually built themselves as Radiants, and Adolin would suddenly jump on this train in the middle of the journey? Even though he doesn't even need it? I don't like it at all. Finally, Adolin's purpose is to be a non-Radiant. To provide a different perspective is one part of it. To me, another one is to show the clash of the worlds, of the one that is fading away and the one that is emerging from chaos. He's the model of what used to make a man stand on the top of the world and a contrast to the emerging caste of the troubled superhumans, who will dominate the new one. I'm quite attached to this interpretation because it puts his character in a very broad context and gives justification for Adolin's oversimplification and perfection. That said, I can't agree that nothing will happen with Maya. If not for any other reason, then for one that Brandon wouldn't leave void hints for something that many readers were looking forward to so much. It would be a strikingly malicious breach of the "fulfill promises made to the reader" principle. My theory is that we'll have a bit of mirroring of what happened to Elhokar. There were hints he would become a Lightweaver and they did pay off, even if not entirely as one might predict. He was used to make Hoid a Lightweaver and give us a tragic moment. I can see something similar happening to Adolin. He could revive his spren to pave the way for others. But if he does, I can't see him staying around to enjoy it for too long.

One additional thing that strikes me in this, is how it relates to that Brandon's video about crafting romance. Apart from braided roses, the thing he recommends to do, is to take two characters who seem completely not right for each other, and then tweak it bit by bit to completely turn it over. So it's exactly that, an artist and a soldier, two different worlds... but then not really. Brandon has used it a lot in the past too. And I think Shadolin is this turned 180 degrees... I didn't remember she was different around her brothers. Time for a reread. This is interesting, they might actually be capable of noticing that she's doing it again and that it means nothing good. I would like that twist - a happy ending with a wedding and a family reunion... only to have one of these blessings undermine the other one next.

I think that accepting the full truth about her mother's murder should simply be a part of her fourth ideal - including that she's not to be blamed. This fourth truth, she has spoken it, but she never came to terms with it. So I think that getting over her guilt should be an integral part of completing her progress on that stage, not a separate Ideal. The last one should be more general than that too.

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something.

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth). When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.