Ailvara

I think it's kind of intentional. Adolin is surrounded by supermen, so he needs to be the very best version of a normal guy to keep up. And there are people I know IRL that are quite close to his sort of perfection (at least as much as I know them - and we don't know Adolin any better), so I don't mind it in fiction either.

I immensely enjoy all those bits of mirroring, foreshadowing and other kinds of relatively tiny things that are not essential to the main narrative, but are all the more interesting while easy to miss. And I think many of you do as well, so I've thought, if you have found something interesting, but not necessarily relating to any "big" thread, post it here for everyone who could have missed it! One of the things that I really enjoyed is how similar seemed to me these two quotes from Kaladin and Dalinar: I don't know if it's intentional, or a natural consequence of character development (in that case, it still highlights how much character development we got there). But I like how these correspond to each other and also to Shallan's struggles, bringing all our three mains characters together in this.

I am no expert, but that reminded me of my friend, who usually doesn't care about shipping at all, but she still sometimes recalls how the Sakura/Sasuke pairing mostly ruined Naruto for her after all those years of reading. And yeah, it was also something about how it eventually ruined character development more than about the ship itself.

I hope this just means, that they won't deal with any of this stuff and it will be all on the verge of exploding. Because if it all magically untangles off-page, I'll be so mad. And ever since I read this on Kindle, I can't throw the book on the wall. Do I remember correctly, that there is a proof-readers q&a tomorrow? Maybe we could brainstorm a bit on how to sneakily ask questions in order to get to whatever secret stuff they know?

I don't think the hatred is just about the ship itself, it's the nature of shipping overall. No matter what the story or pairing, people start with some preference and then they radicalize as the discussions get more heated. I totally get where you're coming from. Shadolin has its upsides and I am really glad we got to explore it more, I just don't see it as endgame. Basically, both Adolin and Kaladin are quite good for her, my main issue is that I feel Shalladin was foreshadowed and promised (and also a bit better still). I also don't want any antagonism between Kaladin and Adolin, but I'm still a believer in this, Brandon made her choose one guy without making anyone hate each anyone, which is more than some people expected from this before OB, so I'm willing to trust him on this some further. Sidenote: Do you remember the times when this thread was chasing the overall book reactions?

This is absolutely right. I will argue, that there are even more hints in this video. One is how he doesn't want the main characters to end up together just because they're mains; not saying that he doesn't want for them to end up together at all, but that if he sees them as a potential romantic interest, he develops them as separate characters in the way that will make them actually right for each other. So I would align the way that Shallan and Kaladin deal with their respective classist prejudices to that, and also the way that they complement each other's faults (Shallan cheering him up and Kaladin inspiring her to be surprisingly sincere with him). Quite possibly more, but I should study. Another device he mentions around 1:15:00 is to make 3 scenes where it goes well, then 3 scenes where it goes wrong. I wouldn't specifically look for the exact 3 scenes of either kind (or maybe there are?) but I'd roughly align WoR with the first bit and OB with the second.

Wow, I stopped posting here, because I barely kept up with reading xD Well, that plus getting through acceptance phase (or maybe still denial, because as I acknowledge this resolution, I still think it's a partial one). Moving on. Oh wow, I LOLed hard on this one. Now bear with me here, I almost had a heart attack when seeing "Twilight", but I've got a feeling that some people here stopped reading after the "T" word. And this one aspect that he got out of Twilight is actually good for this story. Because it means, that whatever romance he throws at us, he intends to make it relatively small, (at least not-un)satisfying and without all the "will they won't they" or false promises. What Twilight screwed up as a romance is actually good for a non-romance novel so please don't faint. Now when you look at us, so far he might have miserably failed; especially when you see the survey about who Shallan's going to end up with, it's 50/50. Hah, whatever, I think it's more exciting that way - ofc as long as it ends properly... My personal expectation/hope here is, that even though this is a 50/50 now, by the end of the story we will all be at the same page with regard to who Shallan should and will end up with. Actually, we're half there atm, as almost nobody would like her with Kaladin in the state that she is now. The opinions differ mostly on whether this should be the end or the journey. And as I say it's the journey, I think our preferences will continue to change accordingly in the next books and relatively few readers will be left truly disappointed with the finale of all this. Now not yet leaving this topic, but adding: I can only see this as a further confirmation for Shalladin - sorry I'm not sorry. The Shallan and Kaladin first meeting is a textbook example from the trope discussed in the video. So he puts them into a romance trope, and one that he praises, and long before she even meets Adolin. Now I would be willing to admit this might be playing with the trope, but not after how he states in this first quote that he would not like to mislead us. Really, I could argue about who she has better interactions with in OB, but WoR is much clearer; so if we're after what should seem like the endgame from the start, my vote goes again to Shalladin. Now I left this for the end only for the most persistent, because I'll be briefly getting back to Twilight comparisons (I read it back in middle school with guilty pleasure; that is probably not the worst thing about the 15-year old me anyway, you can shoot, I'll live). Anyway, remembering that story better than I usually care to admit, I can't help but notice how is terms of both story structure and character traits, Adolin is more in the position of Jacob (the safer choice, explored in the middle book). (I don't know which jobs are still available on the ship, but I'm quite good with knots)

So I think he acknowledged, that there is something more to Tien, but not dawnsingers. And he basically confirmed, that the hints from Oathbringer mentioned above are valid and intended.

One difference is that Jasnah wants to sacrifice 10 people to save the world. T wants to sacrifice the world to save one city. Another one is that she has capability to take a step back and, say, not kill Renarin. T and Amaram follow their lines of thinking even when they fail and can't admit when they're wrong. They won't even reasonably consider the idea, that Dalinar and KRs got some good cards in this game and maybe it'd be reasonable to play along? What I'm getting at is a fine distinction someone spotted in the diagram thread. Jasnah wants to save the world. The other two want to be the ones to save it (I mean, T. Amaram... Eeeh)

There you go: It's at 67% of the book, said by a fused called Rine.

There is a line in Venli's third interlude, where one of the fused says that they killed Honor. So it looks pretty clear that the "we" is Odium and the ancient parsh spirits.

I don't see the point of trying hard to prove whether Wit could reach her. Never at any moment did it feel to me like it's actually him talking - the words clearly look like her just remembering them. Also, I don't think he was just sitting around there and waiting to whisper to her what already had been said, while the city all burns. So, I would accept that it's just her musing much sooner than that's Hoids doing. That being said, the last bit looks odd. It wouldn't be enough to make a good theory, I agree, but then... this so looks like So little evidence now doesn't discard the theory either, on the contrary, now we have more than then - a strong precedent to work with. EDIT I'd also argue, that it wasn't Hoid's voice. If she was given the same words and voice - plus it wasn't too long and the conversation was quite important and memorable - she shouldn't have had trouble recognizing it. And let's remember we're talking about Shallan, who has a supernatural memory and can imitate people's voices on her own, so she's a pro here. So it's quite likely it wasn't exactly Hoid's voice. EDIT2 I must admit, I kind of hope this is true, because it might actually be a tool to help Shallan's recovery. If she finds the way to stop the influence, she might just get better enough to figure the rest out in her own. If her condition is entirely psychological, well, no shortcuts here, and it's a loong way to go.

I think you know very well why xD our norms as a society are still not fair for women, whatever we might try to tell ourselves.

I just wanted to make a sidenote that has been on my mind for a while. I'm amazed how much Brandon is inclined to tell us in q&a. Half of the time when I expect a full RAFO, he gives us something at the very least. Then again, it's not like we won't be amazed by the final outcome anyway, so why bother. Ok, end of appreciation sidenote.

It depends if you ask, whether I appreciate writing or enjoyed reading about the character. For example, I've never been a huge Shallan fan, so no surprise that these were the worst for me, but I really like how Brandon put her on a tough road to eventual recovery and the new level of powers she showed here.

Actually that's one of the things I love about it. In previous assumption, Kaladin was aligned to Dalinar, who was definitely hovering around. I don't think we have such evidence for Navani, she seems to have taken all this in a much healthier manner.

Yes, it's already different and will continue to be, but the main points need to stay the same if the analogy is to hold. So in both cases we have arranged marriage, but in one case it's all there is to start with, while in the other the final decision to marry is supported by feelings (even if we argue if they're shallow or not). Similarly, I don't expect Shallan to bury Adolin alive, but I can't see this getting resolved without her making his life miserable at some point.

Storms, that's good. I like how the mirroring is concurrent, as the E/D/N part of the... square was explored in OB and the G/D/N was more of a thing back when S/A/K mirrored that aspect of the situation better. This foreshadows Shallan hurting Adolin in the way that made me gasp (although I expected it anyway). I think it won't be that extreme though, because Shallan won't have ten years to put herself together as Roshar kind of needs her asap. So my guess is we're here for some serious drama, but not necessarily Shallan being the cause of Adolin's death. The way she's (not) coping now, I can't see her getting over that, like, ever. Sidenote: the reputation limit is killing me.

Uff, that's good. Otherwise we would need to finally compose this essay from all goodness here and put it on reddit. (I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't do that anyway)

Oh dear, if he changes the plot based on readers' opinions, I hope he reads 17th shard, not reddit. Or we'll all doomed. Thank you.

Hah, mine has no chapters in the table of contents and expected time left for every chapter is 1 minute.

That's a great catch. I automatically assumed, that if Brandon didn't make him step down because it is simply over, then he might have in order not to drag this in Kaladin's head for his and our sake, and if he was to develop feelings for Shallan, it would be later and symmetrical to get development. But this is a much better justification.

I think this kind of scenes is what he meant by classic triangles (which he doesn't like). So the conflict part, I'd expect that in any other shape than this macho growling But I agree, that we haven't really had any decent conflict, so I hope we'll get some in next book(s). Mostly in Shallan's, maybe Adolin's head, I think, not outright fight for a girl, nope.

I just made a mistake of reading some comments and reviews on reddit, tor etc, where everyone is so sure that this is a wonderful end to this love story, Shallan had found herself and this is all so true and happy. My question is, have we created a microclimate of careful readers or wishful thinkers? I really thought it's the first option, but when next person tells you you're crazy...

Maybe this is a stupid question, but are we actually sure, that next books will have a clear main focus character in any other way than by that character getting flashbacks? What I mean, is in the speardsheets Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan were always the main characters - one of them primary, other secondary, but these are our mains. Szeth and Venli/Eshonai might get flashbacks, but I don't see them suddenly overtaking a book at this point; getting more than so far, yes, but not overwhelmingly. Besides, even though this was Dalinar's book, I felt like at times Shallan got even more screen time (maybe because I was so struggling with being in her mind this time...). Also, the book doesn't have to be tied to the main character (just see WoK).