Darvys

I think it may come down to a simple matter of perspective, Adolin views oaths as a burden and a restriction on his actions, whereas promises are goals he strives towards and hopes for the future, something that encourages and uplifts rather than castigates and judges. It is as you say pure vibes, If not that, then I accept that it goes over my head because all I read in it is poetic nonsense. But Honor doesn't require people to swear oaths, it requires them to keep them. The overcompression as you call it was a necessary check on the immense power of surgebinding. What Adolin proposes doesn't account in any way for the problems that were solved by those restrictions, it's just incredibly convenient that his Unoathed can't access any surges and as such can't cause too much havoc if a number of them go rogue. Adolin's views don't offer a valid alternative to the current system, they merely declare that righteousness can exist outside of it, which is an important lesson for Honor to learn, but on its own, a woefully insufficient one in my view.

Adolin would only be one of many sources of inspiration for the Shard, as it apparently needs to expand its understanding of its own intent, Taravangian can make apparent its current inadequacy, and the Rosharans opposing him can be the examples it learns from. And I agree with you in that neither Honor nor Dalinar have an issue with going beyond the call of duty, their issue is with going against their chosen duty or oath even when doing so would result in better outcomes. At least that was the case for Dalinar before his journey in the spiritual real changed him. The OP's point seems to be that Adolin's awkward phrasing was his own way of acknowledging that distinction, though as you point out the way it is presented doesn't touch the heart of the issue.

Sure, that seems to be the path Brandon is taking for the shard, and Adolin seems to be the frontrunner to embody the change that the Wind declared would need to come from many, following the path her champion started. My issue with this is that up to this final book I would have sworn that Honor already understood all this, every character we followed for four books was intent on doing what they saw as right, rather than keeping oaths, the rigid interpretation of honor was limited to Dalinar's pov, a flaw shared by the Stormfather who was a cognitive shadow of Tanavast. Looking at the spren, honorspren specifically, we were lead to believe that Honor's Intent was broader that Dalinar's interpretation, but this book switched everything up. Now Tanavast was the one who cared about doing right unlike his very shadow, and the Shard of Honor from whom all spren are born only cares about oaths somehow. I can't shake the feeling that the Shard had to be dumbed down for Brandon's narrative choice to fit, and now we have to read five more books to wait for Honor to catch up to where most characters and readers already are, to where most readers expected the shard to already be, and I just don't see the appeal in that. He should be, Dalinar infused him with all his memories and skills, the spren then rejected the wisdom that came with said memories and drew its own conclusions. If a god claims the spren has the capacity required, I'm inclined to believe it, not to forget that Retribution can train him in visions in the same way he trained Gavinor for as long as he needs, Time means nothing to a spren.

Odium is not a benevolent Intent, I find it would be far easier to defend suffering resulting from the rejection of the help the vessel offered, than the active enslavement and oppression of subjects, you're free to disagree. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that the passage of thousands of years could have an impact on the Shard's patience and its tolerance of the vessel's shenanigans, I can't help with that any further. Edit: I'll add to this, that while Rayse wasn't rejected as Tanavast was, Odium was looking for a better fit, and according to Wit hated its current vessel. Because they rationalize it as those entities turning away from Honor, what will their justification be to refuse Honor's own directives ? That Honor is betraying itself ? He was training and preparing them in the wars he orchestrated, with Honor's intervention the escalation led to Ashyn's destruction ... At this point you're just being obtuse. Dalinar, King of Urithiru now ascended to godhood as Honor couldn't keep his followers from war ? True, I got mixed up. The tidbit wasn't needed for the point I was making, I see no reason for Honor to refuse Odium's release, if it could forgive Tanavast for his immense transgressions. At this point I think I've said all that needs to be said to present my views on this matter, no need to keep repeating myself, and as was pointed out, while relevant, this discussion is rather tangential to the thread.

Yay 10% of Roshar is free to live in isolation and misery, while the rest either joins his armies or dies from lack of war-light to keep their lands fertile. Yes, even after Dalinar broke all the Oaths, Honor STILL wanted him as a vessel so long as he agreed to fight, had he kept his own side of the bargain there is no doubt in my mind that Honor would have been content to release Odium. Though it was in vision, Dalinar stood with the Heralds and swore he would protect Roshar and its people, Honor witnessed that Oath, if freeing Odium is how it's done, Honor should by all rights consent. The spren hold back because they believe the humans betrayed them in the Recreance, we now know that not only the decision was shared by the Radiant spren, but that it was also motivated by a vision from Honor that the Radiants misinterpreted, with Honor back to correct that mistake and once again limit the surges, with Dalinar's ascension and Kaladin's elevation as proof that humans' honor is alive and well, give me a single reason why the spren would not come back, cowardice ? From the younger spren maybe, but the old Radiant spren are healing, when THEY rejoin the fight do you really think the rest would dishonor themselves by sitting it out ? I have a hard time imagining it. Again, as I said, stick him to the roof for years on end if you have to, there's no deadline on the contest, keep him there till he dies of old age if that's what it takes and if you think Gavinor is that stupid. That was seven thousand years ago when both vessel and shard thought they were raising armies with the constant wars, when Ashyn was destroyed he lost his surgebinders, he raised new armies on Roshar and was confident he could eventually dominate the planet and gain the Radiants to his cause. Taln said no you can't do that, and that led to where we are, a power desperate to leave the planet, a vessel scrambling to salvage an army sufficient for his plans, then Taravangian happened. Staying means there is no conflict for who knows how long until the humans attack, all Dalinar would have to do is keep the humans in line until Odium rejects Taravangian. You say he would torture his people to force a war ? Have you forgotten what fuels Odium's anger ? Why it wants all the other shards dead ? It's for the misery they cause to innocents with their neglect, what do you think it'll make of its own Vessel if he decides to just start oppressing its own people for no fault of their own ?

Shards can be cajoled and reasoned with, would Honor like releasing someone else from an Oath ? Probably not, would it permit it ? Yes, if you tell that the result of doing so is in keeping with the Oaths YOU swore, to protect Roshar. Tanavast released the Heralds from most of their responsibilities, against the shard's wishes, and still kept it for 2 thousand years. If the book is telling me something that doesn't make sense, I'll call it out, if it keeps stacking incoherent developments I'll drop it and move on. Seriously ? By Tanavast's own admission, his deteriorating control of his power, contributed to the Heralds unstability. He went to Roshar to gain access to the Surges, he has them now. Rayse himself realized in the end that the endless wars were counter productive, that with the Tower reborn, anti-light discovered, he simply could not subdue the Radiants without completely crippling his own forces in the process, and above all ODIUM wants out of the planet, it does not want an endless war. Gavinor is no longer a child, he is a man deceived, as I said, stick him to the tower and take as much time as you need to reach him, Odium cannot interfere without surrendering the contest. If Gavinor, the man, insists on dying on his deluded hill, then let him. For the same reason Rayse did, the power itself demands its freedom, make it conditional on never returning to harm Roshar and its people, and Odium will force Taravangian to take the deal. Odium seemed perfectly capable of massacring the singers who opposed him by El's testimony, I have no clue how shardic battles even occur, so that opens the door to unlimited handwaving, Oh retribution couldn't do this or he'd be killed, but that was fine to do due to nebulous rules we know nothing about. A story only dictated by the whims of the author where speculation is meaningless because the rules are never explained doesn't really appeal to me.

The humans swore no oath to keep the peace, Dalinar swore no oath to keep the peace, the contract only binds Odium to do so, if war ever breaks out again, Honor can support his followers as he sees fit. Why the hell would this be worse than where they are now ? They have nothing left, the Radiants are under constant threat of annihilation if they falter in their path, remember Kaladin in WoR ? Now under Retribution's rule he'd get vaporized the moment he acts against his oaths. The singers themselves as well as all nations that made a pact with Retribution controlled nations are now effectively slaves, bound by the letter of their word or they'll end up like Kharbranth, there is no path left for any sort of resistance that doesn't stretch suspension of disbelief. Why not simply tell Wit to go F himself and release Odium ? Honor wouldn't care so long as Dalinar himself remains bound, the other shards not caring about a freed Odium would make absolutely no sense. Oh right it wouldn't be honorable for good old Dalinar, better to surpercharge him before release then ??? We don't KNOW this was the only way, we kept being TOLD it was. Ah Dalinar can't be the one to help Honor learn, why ? Who knows. Ah if the contract is upheld Odium will just be such an abhorrent ruler Radiants will be compelled to oppose him, singers and Mishram won't mind though, trust me bro. Ah if a war breaks out the cycle will just repeat again for thousands of years, never mind that the Fused can be destroyed now and are barely holding on as it is, never mind that with Honor involved once again, the spren will return in a flood, never mind that the Heralds can now have the support they need from both Kaladin and a God who cares and who won't be infecting them with his mounting insanity anymore. No, If Odium is freed and Radiants have a God, his only option will be to turn his attention to the stars, that's where he'll send his armies to train, and if the Shards still choose to ignore him after that, then Taravangian is right, they all deserve to die. And Gavinor ? Stick him to the floor and keep him there until he listens to sense, and if he doesn't accept that you have failed to protect him and end him. Dalinar is capable of making such a decision difficult though it would be. Brandon didn't want it, so we have to just believe that the ending he chose is what makes the most sense, Wit said it after all. "Wait and see, it'll be worth it", sure, we'll get plenty of epic moments no doubt, but going forwards, this will be a "keep your brain at the door" type of series for me, expecting any kind of satisfaction or complexity from the narrative has just left me disappointed for a few books now.

Yes, yes, following foolish rules is foolish, swearing oaths frivolously is dumb, none of us expected or wanted a 10 book series revolving around something so basic. None of us expected that a shard of Adonalsium gaining sentience would start as a 5 year old honest to god retard of a shard, and it does so because that's the only way the "moral" of this book could even be relevant. When I read about Tanavast's failure, I assumed it was because no vessel could live up to the Shard of Honor, that it's intent was larger than life and unforgiving, it never occurred to me that both shard and vessel would turn out to be drooling morons made for each other. I was hoping for something inspiring or at the very least thought provoking, what we got was "don't be a drone", O.K. The Shards of Adonalsium are supposed to be all-encompassing, if the only good that Honor recognizes is keeping oaths, then that means that every other good that Dalinar listed falls under the purview of other shards, it doesn't make sense to me that Honor should be able to grow to the point of encroaching on their intents. And what the hell was that about Honor caring about being right ? Shouldn't it be elementary that Honor cares instead about being IN the right ? It just feels that Brandon by insisting on this idea that Honor learns and grows, had to first cripple the shard in ways that baffle explanation. It's so disappointing. I won't even get into that whole promise vs oath nonsense again, don't want to lose my few braincells. Meh, the more I think about this book, the less I like it.

Even if we didn't see the action, I wish the lead up to it at least was viewed through Taln's pov, it would have been enough for me. I don't think it'll have nearly the same weight in a flashback, since by then I expect we'll be far more familiar with their abilities, we can already extrapolate enough from Nale's performance, the shock factor is gone, seeing it revealed through Taln's eyes would have been something else entirely. Don't get me started on Abidi though, way to make Taravangian look incompetent for appointing this imbecile to command the army, he had the city, all he had to do was sit in his aluminum cage for a couple hours, but no, the plot demands a loss, so the fused's stupidity and Adolin's immersion breaking plot armor delivered.

I would have agreed with you if their higher oaths had anything to do with leadership, but Sanderson decided to stick with protection to the point where the 5th just felt silly to me. Kaladin isn't the Windrunner Herald, he's the Herald of Kings, the Ideals he swore are no longer sufficient in my view for the position he now holds, the parallels between him and Dalinar were so frequent I am certain he could instantly swear up to the 3rd Bondsmith Ideal and we could watch him evolve as a leader and discover the rest in step with Navani whom I expect to have a distinct perspective on leadership and unity which would ensure sufficient variety. Honor deliberately invested Syl not only to preserve the Highstorms but also I think to ensure there would be a Bondsmith left on Roshar in case the Sibling and the Nightwatcher were also destroyed before the protections were set up. It makes sense to me for Kaladin to fill that role.

I find it disgusting personally, knew it was coming, knew my brain would filter it out when it did, at first I was annoyed it would involve Renarin since I was curious about his arc, but from the preview we got in WaT, I won't be missing much, so meh, have at it, it's the least of my worries relating the future of these stories.

Yeah, it all went downhill from that conversation with Wit on day 1, it felt like Brandon wanted to write Kaladin trying to be a therapist when all the story needed was the same old Kaladin trying to help his companions any way he could, the character had already proven to possess the qualities needed to provide the help Szeth needs, modern therapy doesn't belong on Roshar yet, and that's fine, all it needs, all Kaladin needs to be, is an empathetic and discerning person who's wise enough to guide a friend through a rough time, the structure can wait, the lingo and clichés can disappear, mental support and people capable of providing it have existed since the dawn of our time, that's all WaT needed from Kaladin, maybe let Lirin do the work to continue developing said structure in the time-skip in place of his believed dead son. But no, Brandon was too impatient I guess, and we got this instead, meh. If this is what the experts he consults thought would be appropriate, then he needs new experts, because it seems to me like he's quickly losing himself in the weeds.

While this isn't an aspect I care much about in Stormlight, the way it's handled caused a few eyerolls, Renarin somehow using power and authority he doesn't even have, as he rejected it, to dictate how the Tower would be governed was especially funny, how he doesn't choke on the hypocrisy I'll never know. "All individuals are flawed, no one should have this much power. Now let me use that power to impose my will without consulting anyone else, don't like it ? Ha that proves my point." It's so silly in that I expect everyone else to just take it, not much room in the series for this sort of intrigue. Dalinar's body wasn't even cold, Navani wasn't even dead yet, before they wiped their asses with their will. But trust us, they would have approved, Renarin said so. Dami is next in line, seemed like a Dalinar fan, dismissive of Jasnah's authority over Radiants, so hopefully there will be tensions and push back before the prodigal son Returns to teach these fools about the will of the people. That's what I would like, but then I remember that the people of the tower didn't really exist in WaT so who knows.

I should clarify that I don't mind this nascent concept being confined to Adolin's character growth and story arc, but in discussions around the book it is often expected to be a theme expanded to the whole story and the evolution of Honor's shardic intent, which is what I dislike and argue against. This "revelation" was presented in a way that hints to future relevance, and I personally don't see any room for it outside of Adolin's own flawed pov.

I felt it was silly, especially when juxtaposed to Radiant oaths, which in the end of the day are rightly named Ideals which the knight promises to do his best to live up to. "I will protect those who can't protect themselves", no Windrunner who ever lived has kept this oath, as no mortal ever could, yet neither Honor nor his spren mind this, failure is accepted, it is betrayal that is not. Instead of complaining about men keeping stupid oaths, Adolin should complain about them making them, playing on semantics and calling them promises instead just seems childish and frankly meaningless, Honor doesn't distinguish, Tanavast didn't swear a formal oath to make peace with Mishram, he told her he would, a promise to an individual, the millennia of war that followed didn't break it, the years between Aharietiam and the false desolation where no pact was sealed didn't break it, it was acting against the intent, that singular betrayal that did, as it should. Honor has plenty of issues, but not understanding promises, isn't one of them. I don't know where Brandon wants to go with this, because I just don't see the point of any of it, maybe he needed to give his unoathed a reason to exist, but this one just seems stupid to me.

Yeah this was weird, Kaladin's comment doesn't make much sense if time is faster in the vision, months for them instead of years when they're looking to rest and heal is a problem not something to cheer them up, and feels like a convenient plot device to ensure they do not recover fully before they are forced to return, especially since it was the opposite in every other vision that occurred in the book. I'm still hoping it's a mistake that slipped through, even though it could be rationalized.

I doubt Valor would risk exposure for such a subtle nudge, Hoid claims that any attempt to interfere can be sensed by other shards. If Valor takes action it'll be when Retribution goes to hide not while Odium suffuses the planet. When reading I also assumed it was the Wind, whom no one in Azir is aware of at this point, another thing that stood out was the gust of wind that conveniently uncovered Adolin's peg which in turn let him pass the patrol unobstructed. The epigraph claiming that the Wind wasn't involved in the east was wrong I think, she was there helping in small ways, even whispering briefly to Dalinar before his contest, calling Notum as she once called Syl is I believe another way she helped in the struggle against Odium.

I understand that Taravangian is inclined to honor his part to satisfy the shard, but didn't the contract stipulate that Odium would remain bound to the system regardless of the result of the contest ? I doubt Honor would be content with T. cherry picking clauses he doesn't mind too much. But then again the shard still seems pretty naive, needing reassurances that T. treated Gavinor "honorably" instead of making its own judgement, so maybe the vessel can just bs his way out of trouble.

Szeth never managed to Elsecall on his own, it was explicitly stated that the Honorblade responded to his need and made up itself for his inability, something that spren can't do as far as we know. Your second point is more interesting though, she did manage to warp to the physical realm that one time when Wit was waiting for her, so she should be able to move around by traveling in the cognitive then warping back at her destination. But we were told that she can't bring other people with her, so Shallan will remain stuck.

I expect she'll be the reason the Heralds are thrown back to Roshar ahead of schedule, and Team Taravangian can't all be centered on El, so a conflicted double agent who eventually turns full traitor would be my bet. I hope we don't get many Herald casualties but if we do, I think she'll be the main cause.

I think Moash should have died in RoW with a spear through his skull after Kaladin swore the 4th, now he feels to me like a character who outlived his usefulness "Oh look it's Moash, time to lose another bridge 4 member. Get mad !" meh, I'm just annoyed at this point. I don't care how Kaladin deals with him, I don't want him to even get the chance to meet Kaladin, let him suffer while hearing of his former team's heroism before Gav shoves Oathbringer up his ass.

Loved the experience, despite the flaws, though I admit to skimming through the parts I disliked or felt dragged on too long or were unnecessary starting from the midpoint, which no doubt increased my enjoyment overall, most shocking to me, is that I didn't hesitate to skip Dalinar's confrontation with Gav/Taravangian up to his ascension to Honor as I simply couldn't be arsed to care, there is no permutation of that story beat that could interest me, so I just didn't bother reading it. I particularly enjoyed everything involving the Heralds in either realm and wish El had also gotten any sort of focus rather than a tease to his future involvement. Kaladin and Szeth's arc was satisfying and Dalinar's ending a great relief. I would trade most of Azir's and Shallan's screen time for a fused/singer centric arc any time of any day, everything else was fine, mostly enjoyable to read though little of it truly memorable. Looking forward to Jasnah's growth, the Heralds old and new, and for the singers and fused to truly be part of this story as I am weary of being limited to the human and listener pov. 7/10, Stormlight has all the elements needed for a masterpiece story, but I feel they are being squandered at many turns, with only flashes of brilliance and compelling characters that keep me hooked.

Final preview is of the characters who interest me the most, can't wait for this book.

The more rationalizations I read, the less this makes sense, Nightblood can instantly vaporize and absorb entities whose investiture dwarfs the amount held in that tiny sphere, but somehow extended contact with the sword had a far milder effect than the loss of a sphere's worth of light ? The whole interaction between light and its opposite stinks of plot device material, inject a body that's suffused with light and it just smokes a bit as the soul is slowly destroyed but put the two in a sphere and you've got yourself a bomb, where does the extra energy come from ? Magic I guess. At most it should crack the gem or something, not blow up a damn room. In RoW it was just a silly interaction that I ignored for being harmless and kinda cool, but now that nonsensical gimmick is used to explain an even crazier interaction which is this time central to the plot ... not cool at all. I won't even get into the disproportionate pull effect that followed that up, I can't even begin to come up with an explanation for it that wouldn't fall apart even with my very limited knowledge of physics. So yeah, it was magic, I'd rather not even think about it again, it was a plot device and nothing more, I doubt it'll ever be explained in a satisfying way, so whatever, it's just a new feature of perpendicularities, accept it and move on I guess. Edit: One more thing, if anything the effect should be reversed, the tone of the anti-light sphere should be what disrupts the portal, which is what it did to Mraize's illusion with its mere proximity

and the most likely imo 4) Odium wins, remains stuck on Roshar, but given free rein to prepare and recruit Radiants to his cause. I find it curious how so many seem to want Ishar to be lying about his burden and have Taln be the one doing anything of note to help against Odium. How boring would that be ? Taln wasn't any nobler than the rest, they all made the pact, they all bore it as long as they could, Taln was more resilient to torture, cool, that on its own doesn't make him a better person let alone the only good person among the Heralds, I don't see the point of tarnishing the rest to elevate him, makes for a better story if they're all genuinely doing what little they can to help each in their own twisted way. Still think Kaladin's attempts at therapy are a miss by Brandon, he feels more like a caricature than a convincing portrayal of a pioneer, somewhat by design I guess, but I just don't like it, would have preferred if his attempts at connecting felt more genuine even if ultimately fruitless, but here the dialogue was just painful to read at times, reading Szeth still responding for some reason didn't help, it didn't seem believable because we still have no clue what he thinks about any of this and it doesn't fit what little I know of Szeth, I would have preferred to watch the scale tip from his own pov, after a bit more effort than a bowl of stew.