Darvys

Couldn't the Ghostbloods just kill the radiants on the way when their guard was down ? Some pact with Sja Anat forbidding the harm of other enlightened maybe ? The Windrunners failing to see the big picture and rushing to save 2 soldiers before the threats to the Bondsmiths are fully neutralized annoys me to no end as well, these two won't be swearing the fourth any time soon I guess. The first experiment going off the rails took me completely off guard though, I was expecting the next few chapters to cover that and stew night before all hell breaks loose on Day 3, but seems nothing will go according to plan this book, fine by me.

I almost forgot that Radiant is just a fabrication, for half a second I expected her to rush in there and pull a Kaladin, but no, she's still just a barely trained young woman with no real mundane combat experience, so yeah she just stood there and let them run away, was kinda funny I liked it. Curious what Jasnah's reaction to potential enemy Elsecallers out there, for a while I've been wanting to know what she feels and thinks about being the only one still while other orders flourish around her, probably views it as a personal failure deep down if I had to guess.

Interesting tidbit about Honor's cowardice, add that to the bravery theme that seems to slowly be coalescing since RoW : in Adin's pov, Taravangian's ascension, around windrunners and Kaladin, could also add Jezrien's curse I guess, paragon of the windrunners reduced to a drooling drunk who can't face his failure like a certain Shard aspirant used to be. Dunno where this is all going, but I doubt it's all coincidental. That capital B will come into play at some point, but probably not in this book if I had to guess.

He was untouchable under the Alethi system, as he did nothing that the king could condemn him for with the tenuous support he had among the highprinces, all Sadeas had to do was lament that he had to retreat to save his troops and that was that. Nothing short of open war would change a thing. In the Tower, Dalinar's word is law, he control the food supply and the only bridge to the warcamps, Sadeas would be held to account for any further transgressions. And Ialai went on to do just that in his name, Sadeas being dead changed absolutely nothing, everyone knew he was an eel at that point, his cunning mainly relied on Dalinar being a trusting fool, otherwise all he would have accomplished is being a political nuisance before eventually, at worst, switching sides to Odium which Amaram ended up doing anyway. Hindsight aside, opposition of Dalinar isn't a sin, Adolin murdered him in anger to avenge his prior betrayal, that should have repercussions, but I don't see how they would fit in the story anymore and It annoys me, I hate that Dalinar keeps getting away with his preaching and pristine (war crimes aside) image while others do the dirty work for him or clean up his messes. If Radiants really uphold all those values, maybe start by holding your own goddamn household accountable, if he can't even do that, he has no right to call himself leader of the orders in my view.

There should be, or rather should have been consequences if only to demonstrate that Radiants aren't raging hypocrites, Sadeas was untouchable in WoR because the Alethi system was broken, the Kholins were in a good position to start changing that system cleanly, Sadeas wasn't in a position to do any more harm than an antagonized Ialai or whichever highlord ended up succeeding him could and later did. The only thing Adolin accomplished was ensure there would be no peace or reconciliation with the princedom. If Dalinar actually understood or cared about the first Ideal, he would have seen to it that Adolin was punished the moment he learned the truth, rather than wait for a more convenient time. But the way the story has been shaped so far, I doubt this will ever be relevant or addressed, so meh.

Intervention is also required to escape fabrials though. I guess this would depend on whether or not the lesser spren can even comprehend or later remember their experience inside the fabrial, Navani presents it as them accepting to work in exchange for her rewards, when all I see is her team using the spren's nature to trap them in that cycle, but the Sibling is their designated advocate and he doesn't seem to mind so everything works out, a bit too conveniently as you said.

I agree, the Stormfather straight up warned Dalinar that the power might reject him after whatever happened with Tanavast, so finding out what that was will be key to understanding what Honor became or is becoming, in my view Dalinar IS a good vessel for the rigid version of Honor you describe, imposing his will, keeping his oaths and dealing with consequences later has been his way to govern for quite a while. It could just as easily be the opposite, and the dying Tanavast's behavior scarred the Shard in some way and shifted its Intent towards leniency if such a thing is even possible, it can't be a coincidence that the Wind picked for her champions the two Radiants who best exemplify these two facets of Honor, their actions may well end up deciding which way the Shard ends up stabilizing.

I really like this, especially if as many expect the Stormfather will get destroyed in this book, and with Kaladin being prepped up to take over when Dalinar falls, which is also in keeping with Stoneward ideals, this dual bond would give him access to the Bondsmith surges and with Honor's limitations gone maybe he can learn to access their spiritual applications as well. It would be borderline a heresy if he doesn't swear his 5th ideal in this book and something happens to Syl or their bond, he can always acquire Jezrien's Honorblade later on and still technically be of both orders. While the Bondsmith Honorblade is also still in play, I doubt it will be for long, I expect that nick that Nightblood left behind will come back into play and the blade will be taken out of the equation somehow, permanently cutting off the protagonists from Honor's remnants, and therefore making such a dual bond radiant the next best thing to a Bondsmith they can get. Yeah I really like this, good catch, could also just be a stupid rock though, you never know.

If what we see is the best they can do then that only reinforces Odium's point, these gods are either incompetent, or shockingly negligent and complacent. Which makes it extremely vexing that the two new Vessels we got are shackled from the get go, Harmony by the very nature of his powers, and T.Odium by Honor's restrictions. It makes it difficult to assess if the current crop is to blame or if the same tendencies would manifest no matter who held the powers, which would then make it easier to accept Odium's solution as a logical one, and not just another exhibit of his savior complex. The mess on Roshar is still impossible to judge though, we know too little about the circumstances that led to the conflict, or the pact between the 3 shards, so there's still room for the state of affairs to be rationalized, but I doubt it could be justified, if Taravangian's assessment is anything to go by.

Some much needed depth added to Odium, this new perspective reinforces my distaste for the theory that Dalinar would pick up a merged "War" shard, the Blackthorn has only reflected the worst of what this shard can be and as a Bondsmith seems too far removed from its essence. Kaladin while seemingly a far better fit is being set up to get entangled with older forces to unforeseeable ends, so I guess I'd prefer that we stick with Taravangian all the way through, maybe watch him learn to reinterpret the shard's intent, I still believe the focus that RoW put on Bravery specifically, and most curiously through Adin's pov, will be relevant in the future. Still can't bring myself to care about the Ghostblood storyline on Roshar though, i'll be glad if it's ditched after this book.

I don't recall any mention of a quartermaster, when Dalinar pretended there was a problem with his helm he was told to talk to his spren or some named unknown person, I assumed it would be one of the Bondsmiths of that time, which would be the person you go to if there's something strange with your spren bond. I'm also not convinced that Kaladin's interactions with windspren are related to his shardplate or common to his order, what he did in the storm when saving those people in Oathbringer and after swearing the 4th ideal, I think that's separate from his armor spren forming around other people which is what the RPG canonizes as a standard radiant ability. But those interactions tell us that even the lesser spren can interpret and respond to a Radiant's Intent, which is what Syl believes would allow her to manifest even as a non metallic object, Kaladin visualizing and herself believing, so maybe armor spren can actually do more than just form armor, it's just that like with the weapons, ancient Radiants just never had the leisure to experiment.

Yeah it's something I've felt as well, and no I don't think it has much to do with the pacing of either the release or the story itself, it feels like subtlety was thrown out the window and I'm getting hammered with the purpose of each scene, it doesn't flow naturally enough for immersion, and character interactions feel off tower-side when you consider what everyone just went through the day before. I also noticed that most chapters were trimmed further from the readings we got in recent years, while the changes seem small, cutting the short descriptions and other such connecting bits in dialogues makes the text far too bland in my opinion, and though I understand the necessity to keep wordcount in check, I worry this may have a decent impact on readers' enjoyment. As for the events themselves, we should be feeling a sense of urgency and impending calamity, a contest to decide the fate of Roshar, spren suddenly having to contend with mortality, Ishar's mad experiments, Hoid's mounting dread and the Wind whispering of new dangers ... So why is Drehy cracking jokes upon meeting Shallan ? Did anyone think to warn her, her companions and especially the honorspren of the danger Ishar and anti-light represent ? Why did many of us have to suffer through that godawful library scene, to learn about spren anatomy ? Would have been much better to get a short scene where Dalinar warns Kaladin about what he discovered, and let his surgeon's curiosity prod Syl for the rest, no need for chull vaginas or ardents clapping in the background as Kal schools a librarian who by all rights should be worshipping the ground he walks on after the events of the last book. And even as a sucker for bridge 4 interactions, maybe don't squeeze them in while Shallan is fighting for her life next time, just maybe don't do that, it's one thing to swap povs in the climax when everyone is in the thick of it, it's quite another to go from a deadly ambush to Kal packing up his bags for a trip. So yeah, not quite sold on this book start to be frank, hopefully everything gets smoother once the threads are untangled and each arc gets kickstarted, because everything being set up IS exciting, and it would be a colossal shame if it was squandered with subpar storytelling.

@Pathfinder This is utterly pointless, you only seem to read one sentence of every five i write and see it as an attack to then go on tirades trying to answer points i never made, and while i dismissed the undertone of you posts early on as unworthy of comment, it gets annoying rather quickly, i'm not here trying to argue against Jasnah's beliefs or statements, nor am i inclined to butt heads with people insisting on holding her as a standard for their own beliefs, i'm trying to further understand a character i enjoy reading about, you clearly can't help me with that, so as you said, no point dragging this on further.

Not guilty ? Only if you shift the blame to the effect of the Thrill, which he had little to no control over. Trying to use culture as a cope out though is a no no in my book, in spite of everything that helped shape you, responsibility still ultimately lies with you, culture and upbringing make his actions understandable but not forgivable, hundreds/thousands of innocents still died, Evi is only a small part of it and only relevant to him and his family. The point you make is applicable to any criminal in real life, hating or despising them is pointless and small-minded, but punishment is still required.

@Pathfinder Nice, now you give me reason to disagree. 1. It is not that the Almighty as defined by Vorinism is unworthy of worship, she was unwilling to worship a being whose existence cannot be proven (see your unknown unknowable quote). 5. Yes she doesn't deem any of the beings she knows of as worthy of worship, what does this tell me about her criteria ? Nothing, only that Shards (what little she knows of them) and heralds and spren and what have you all fall short. Does she even have criteria or is she simply content to dismantle other peoples' flimsy claims ? I don't know, you don't know. I want to know. Now i have no clue what i said that could have triggered this response, since you're not answering a single point i made. I'm not asking anything from anyone in this thread, i'm curious about a character's thoughts and beliefs which aren't presented in the books, Brandon says she's an atheist ? So ? Every atheist on planet earth and roshar has the same thought processes ?

@Pathfinder Ouch, you just nonchalantly dropped a book on my head there, Jasnah would like to have a word with you. Granted i've kinda been all over the place in my posts and talking in circles at points. Note though that in her discussion with Dalinar she doesn't deny the existence of God as you claim, she simply reiterates that Honor doesn't fit the bill, not her bill, but the one presented by the church and likely shared by Dalinar (otherwise claiming that Dalinar's conclusions were wise would make little sense). I went through the thread again, and there's actually nothing we disagree on, my confusion started when @Calderis said that you had quoted Jasnah's criteria, which wasn't really the case, since she only ever talks about what she deems unworthy of worship, never the opposite. And as to your point that she doesn't need to have criteria, it's true, but it would be helpful to know if she does or if she's on the "I'll know it when i see it" camp.

@Pathfinder I was talking about the quote itself, not anything you yourself said ^^. I think you misunderstood my first point though, i know Jasnah doesn't need to have a checklist ready for anything claiming to be God, i'm saying that the fact we don't know if she has that checklist or not makes this entire discussion silly, you quote her saying she didn't accept the Almighty as God, but doesn't that imply the Almighty (reminder, that quote was from before she knew of Shards and the true nature of Honor) comes short compared to what she defines as God ? As long we don't know what that definition is, there's no way to really answer the OP. @Calderis I see, so it was just a weird answer to Hoid's nonsensical assertion.

@Calderis Straightforward ? I was stumped by that quote the first time i read it, and i am stumped here again, if you could enlighten me, i'd appreciate it. @Pathfinder That section does little to clarify Jasnah's take on godhood, she simply states that Taravangian's assumption that morality derives from faith is unappealing. What kind of being would she accept as God ? No one knows. (I'll just ignore the last bits of the exchange, felt so childish, only there for dramatic effect)

You'd be hard pressed i think to find 10 "roles" that each kingdom could realistically claim to specialize in without some of them sounding foolish, it was probably just a matter of inclinations based on geographical location, the most obvious being Shinovar with it's sheltered and easily farmed land and Thaylenah as the naval powerhouse, other than that you'll have scholars aggregating here and there which could make for some interesting hubs but nothing on a scale that a Kingdom would derive its identity from it.

I find the discussion rather silly, since we don't know what Jasnah's criteria for recognizing an entity as God are, people are quick to assume she's sharing the common view of an all powerful all knowing thingy when the main religion on Roshar is centered around an entity that was powerless to stop its worshipers from getting their asses kicked out of heaven by creatures of unknown origin. For all we know, Jasnah could meet Cultivation tomorrow and decide for herself "Hm, works for me." and then start praying in front of trees or whatever, would anyone here be able to fault her ? Worship is a personal choice, and its focus doesn't have to make the unanimity. Jasnah isn't wrong to say Honor isn't God (by whatever definition she goes by) and Vorins in turn aren't wrong to say that he is (their facts being wrong is another story). She herself says she has nothing against people's faiths, she only objects to people trying to shove theirs down everyone else's throats, so please let's not start projecting our own disdain towards religions on a character who isn't portrayed to share it.

Since for now mortals on both sides are fighting over dirt ( and their right to be free / exist but who cares about that ), i'd probably just sit back and watch until we get a better understanding of Odium's motivations and goals, that's assuming i'm a world-hopper shilling on Roshar of course..

Fair point, i was careless with the terminology, but that has a lot to do with how many people seem to use the term "arranged" with the uglier connotation in mind. As far as i'm concerned as long as there's no compulsion ( and i count pressuring an individual who cannot bear it as compulsion ) there's no evil i can point to in arranged marriages, which is why the firm opposition of so many people to the concept in this thread and in general baffles me. My point being that i fail to see the wrongness in the particular case we're discussing. Yes, we can blame Jasnah for bringing the subject up to Navani first, but bear in mind that from Shallan's pov this betrothal was at first a way to ensure her siblings' safety, what good would it do to get her opinion on the matter ( getting her hopes up in the process ) before even verifying that the solution could be implemented ? I personally don't fault Jasnah for her handling of the mess she was dealt, and once again i have to point out that nothing was really done before Shallan gave her consent, so even Navani's excitement wasn't harmful in any way i can see, they didn't sign a contract, they didn't make an announcement, they just talked about it. The point about the additional pressure also falls flat to me since we can clearly see from the start that the couple wants the relationship to work for their own benefit, the fact that their respective families also stand to gain from the union shouldn't detract from that fact. And lastly, as painful as watching their earlier interactions knowing what went through Shallan's head was, that's about what i'd expect from two young people with close to nothing in common trying to find something to bond over ( because i repeat they both want the relationship to work for their own benefit ), it's far from the ideal love story, but it's even farther from the contrived picture some people here seem to think Brandon is fond of feeding us. Now since i don't think i even bothered to answer Op's question i'll do it now : I fervently wish that SKA is resolved, i think that K has more than enough on his plate, let the couple deal with the mess on their own, i'll welcome any outcome as long as it makes sense and doesn't involve Kaladin.

Brandon went out of his way to make it clear through multiple characters that there was no actual contract or obligation to see the marriage through for either party, so i don't quite see what makes it a "textbook definition of an arranged marriage". The whole thing was only a small step above Adolin's usual courting in that his family were slightly more involved in the process. The label they put on the relationship was only meant to keep other families at bay while the two got to know each other, there was no compulsion and the party in a position of power was less eager to see it happen. Besides where do you even get that the causal betrothal was even a thing before Shallan had her say ? Yes, Jasnah spoke to Navani first, who then may or may not have gotten a little too excited by the prospect, but i don't remember reading anywhere that they put anything in motion before getting Shallan's clear approval.

Don't see why most people here are averse to the suggestion ? It would fit nicely as far as i can see, there's nothing that can explain why Jezrien wasn't killed in the weeks between Kholinar's fall and the book's end, before then you can argue (weakly) that while the weapon existed Odium didn't have access to the Herald or didn't have anyone he could trust with the task until the Fused returned. We're talking about a guy who sent people to steal a gemstone no one knew about from a city he was ( as far as he knew ) a few hours from conquering, he doesn't strike me as the type to leave threats laying around at arm's reach. As for the argument that Odium shouldn't need to see Nightblood in action to guess the ramifications of its power, well i'm just not buying it, we know nothing about the Oathpact and the powers that bind and animate both Fused and Heralds, it's not too hard to assume that as far as he knew those connections could not be broken, and so even if he already possessed the knowledge to create that weapon he may not have known it would have the effect it does on these particular victims.

Since spren languages are brought up, the trip to Shadesmar always felt odd in that regard, since all the spren we meet happen to conveniently speak Alethi, unless while in that realm it's meanings that are directly exchanged somehow ? We know (i think?) spren see differently from humans, what about hearing ? Is there even air in the cogntive realm ? No clue, so i would appreciate some help with this.