Darvys

We have more than 60 pages of people criticizing Shallan's behavior, and you find it disgusting that Jasnah would do the same ? We know from Jasnah's pov that her objective is not to have Shallan fall in line but to make her strong enough to master her circumstances, which we know for a fact she's not quite capable of. The way i see it, with that specific line, she's not forcing her into the marriage, she's pointing out that she can't have it both ways, using the betrothal to have access to the Kholins and their ressources and then go about fantasizing about any passing soldier, which would end up hurting Adolin's reputation. There's another thing i wanted to comment on, back when you guys were discussing Adolin's perspective, someone brought up the scene in Celebrant where he decides to go with Kaladin instead of Shallan, this is either an oddity as it was described, or it's aligned with Adolin's toughtfulness as he had his betrothed go with the only person in their company who was armed. Don't know how serious that discussion was, but felt like posting my interpretation anyway.

Or maybe because you can't really talk when you're flying in front of a Highstorm and all we would get is a chapter of one of them fawning over the other in their head ? Can't get your fixation on this guys. If you want to be outraged over a missing scene why not the one where he took her to a mountainside off screen to ler her make her drawing of the tower ? She even had time to include a sketch of him ...

And yet his first action was stepping forward, in complete disbelief then he assessed and decided to pull back ( sure the scrambling part wasn't too dignified ). I have trouble seeing fear in that. I don't have the knowledge to begin guessing. Who can say what kind of implications a being like the Stormfather spending millenia shaping such a place in his mind could have, as for how it could relate to Adonalsium's possible survival, if anything its chances would dwindle, as according to the Stormfather for the smaller pieces to live the whole must first die. And if as someone theorized the Shard's intents are the remanents of Adonalsium's consciousness, well i don't see how both could exist simultaneously. To start speculating on what reassembling the Shards would spawn, we'd need to first understand what Adonalsium was, which i don't think we do.

Caution was the wiser course of action, i doubt Odium would have survived so long if he'd been reckless in his crusade. I'll have to settle for the first, as the second would compel me to hunt you down and put an end to your taunting existence, one Hoid is enough for both universes i believe

I didn't read fear in that passage, only disbelief and even anger. I recall reading somewhere ( book or WoB ? can't recall ) that Odium doesn't dare to invovlve himself too directly as it would leave him open to a strike from Cultivation, it's understandable that upon discovering that Honor's power was still a factor in the game, he'd want to pull away and rethink his position. @Hoidonalsium Not even Hoid knows the answer to that, and you're asking us ?

Isn't the reason Odium retreated explained in his meeting with T ? That if he ever finds himself in front of Dalinar again the latter could compel him to fulfill the challenge he agreed to ? Even Dalinar's comment about Odium looking small isn't very convincing in my opinion, he went from being unable to fathom the magnitude of the Shard's power to being connected to something as grand, of course his perspective would change, doesn't mean he's tapping something greater. Will need some more to buy into this theory.

@maxal Wanting Adolin to get more meaningful screen time is understandable but i don't think that's likely to happen now that we have at least four more radiants who need to share the spotlight, like you i would have gladly traded some Shallan povs in part 3 for more insight on Adolin. I wasn't really bothered by what we got, since i had no expectations related to the murder plotline, i think it was handled realisticaly. I also disagree with the idea that anyone could have murdered Sadeas to the same effect, the only way his death could ever have an impact was if it was at the hand of someone he's hurt and we care about, Dalinar would never do it, neither would Bridge 4 who had moved on, all that left was the Kholin with anger management issues. You say that Adolin was unaffected by the act, i'd counter that it cemented in his mind that he couldn't live up to his father's standards and expectations which in turn eased his acceptance of being the underdog from now on. Though i would point out that we still don't know how various characters will react to the reveal, it happened too late in the book, and with everything going on at the time it would have been weird to see people reacting to that of all things, if next book no one brings it up or there's no noticeable change in everyone's interactions with him, then i'll cede the point. The timeskip will make this difficult, so if there is a backlash i expect it to be subtle by then, which is fine by me. Note that i wasn't bothered by how late the reveal happened, it made sense for him to only blurt it out when he was backed in a corner, otherwise why risk upending his father's efforts at unification ? I said that Adolin's "development" in this book was enough for me, because other than more angst about the murder (which to be honest would have made me lose some respect for the guy) i didn't see much more potential than what we got. And if anything, OB showed that he still has room, as the story unfolds, to shine and grow.

@maxal Reading you is confusing, you seem to want for Adolin the same things you find so annoying in the main 3's arcs. We can already see from his early appearances that he had some trouble handling the immediate aftermath of the murder, being involved in the investigation would if anything show him how safe he was as there was nothing to link him to the murder; why ask for more navel gazing as you call it ? Their world IS ending. Sure, it wouldn't have hurt to add a pov or two to show all this, but all the clues we need are there. To be honest, i would have been bored if any more attention was given to the murder case, and i don't think it was ever presented as any kind of big deal, Sadeas was killed and Dalinar dealt with it in the only way he could, end of story. As far as Adolin's arc is concerned, i reserve my disappointement for the role he didn't play in the third part, Brandon only included him there to get him to Shadesmar. But i wouldn't say that he's got no character development, his arc was all about accepting his place in the new world that is emerging, it may be shallow compared to the main characters ( well it's huge if you consider Shallan .... ) but it's enough for me for the moment. I don't want to go too much off topic and into the other characters' arcs, i'll only say that what you wanted out of this book is pretty much what i got, i think your assessment is tainted by your disappointment in your favorite character's treatment, perhaps some time and a later reread will serve to enhance your opinion of the book.

It would make for some odd succession if the youngest inherits the title. What do you do, raise all you children to be chiefs in their first years, and each time a new one is born you shuffle the rest to other duties ? No, i think if Rock is now Chief it would more likely mean that : 1. The old chief was dumb enough to go on a suicide mission with his direct heirs in tow. 2. Rock's older brothers protested their cousin's murder with arms in hand and got the same. ( i assume it's cousin, i don't see Rock remaining silent after his brother's murder, no matter how much of a fool he was)

I could have cared for his arc if he had actually decided to side with the Listeners for whatever reason he chose, not just going with the flow like the moron he is. But well, reading his chapters made me rethink my best quote of all time, it's now this : "I'm no fool" - Moash, Words of Radiance.

Adolin the youth doesn't quite match the Adolin "i'm only good at swords" we've been seeing, but i guess that's what growing up in Alethkar as a soldier does to you. Still, i get annoyed when Brandon goes out of his way to portray him as slow of thought ( the reaction to Kaladin's joke, really ? ). Not easy to portray varying levels of intellect convincingly, i was glad when he skipped Jasnah's essay and just gave us the readers' reactions. As for Adolin not questioning his lack of Nahel bond, isn't it a thing for him to think of himself as a lesser man than everyone assumes ? If anything attracting a spren is what would throw him off balance. From what i saw in this forum, a lot of you guys want everything in a text you can quote, but some things are just better left unsaid. Then there's Sadeas, i've been over this a couple times already, but why would you guys expect him to agonize over his death ? The morality of murder ? He butchered hundreds of Parshendi during the war, the act of taking a life isn't what will give him pause, it's the justification of the act, in this case he realizes he did what needed to be done, all he needed was a little time after the fact to settle his nerves, that's what he got. What more do you need ? I'm still on the fence about squires though. Yes we saw the Skybreakers test a bunch of hopefuls, but we don't know how they selected those, we've come up with some theories that could really fit, but we'll have to wait to find out how it all works. As for Lyn, the argument of her becoming a squire because Kaladin chose her falls flat when you remember that the ligheyed captain Colot (k ?) also joined their ranks, Kaladin certainly didn't choose him, he even reflexivly suggested that lighteyes should be left out of the testing. Right now, i'll settle for squireship requiring you to have an understanding and willingness to uphold what the order in question stands for and that you indeed do have to be "broken". Yeah, some of you will disagree with the last bit, but it would make no sense for squireship to escape a cosmeric rule. i saw the theory that becoming a squire somehow molds your spiritweb to fit the investiture, but that's as baseless as theories can go, i'll wait to know more. And just keep in mind that just because Lyn and the rest don't look broken doesn't mean they aren't, Shallan is a prime example of what a cheery facade can hide (i'm not emplying they're hiding similar horror, i'm on the camp believing that our heros are on the extreme side).

Why would this be a joke thread ? Sadeas IS the savior of Roshar. Without him the Kholin boys would be lost somewhere in a farm. Without him the Blackthorn would still be stuck with that thin blooded Evi. Without him Gavilar would still be alive and therefore there would be no glorious Vengence Pact. Without him Kaladin would be cutting wood in some forgotten forest. Without him Dalinar would have moved to the Valley and become a monk. Without him the expedition to crush the parshendi would have succeeded, and many more generations of listeners would have gone devoid of minds. Even in death, his sacrifice allowed our paltry "heros" to expose the vile Unmade. Praise Sadeas, without whom Roshar would be no more.

For the troups, they way i understood it, is that Nergaoul overwhelmed them with the Thrill and in that state of mind they were somewhat forcibly fused with voidspren ( Kaladin notes a whole army of spren disappearing not just the huge unmade ). But there's something else, we know that to form a bond you'd have to be "broken", perhaps this is the missing piece. How would the spren know that a candidate can even form a bond, unless it was somehow visible from the cognitive realm ? So perhaps the Highspren are out looking for both the Radiants with "bright" souls and the broken humans either for recruitement purposes or to put them on a watch list. It fits.

Now that you mention this, when the Alethi troups fused with the voidspren, Kaladin mentioned that the flames representing their souls had turned red. So perhaps people with a Nahel bond can be detected thanks to a similar effect, we'd have Highspren in Shadesmar looking for these unusual souls, and pointing the Skybreakers in their direction in the physical. This could account for bonded radiants, but not protoradiants.

Always knew god metals were overrated, this is the real thing to burn. Your mention of "loudness" in surgebinding made me go on this tangent. I was refering to the spren in kholinar who detect the use of fabrials (and surgebinding, according to Kaladin's experiment), i was saying that if the Skybreakers had a device that could mimick the ability it would go haywire with all the fabrials around, so wathever they're using to detect surgebinders must work on a different principle.

The obvious would be that Fused refers to a fusion between a Parshman body and the Listener spirit, not the spirit itself. I don't think we have confirmation that they only access a single surge either do we ?

If anything, refusing the shards would have been the telling part, knowing how radiants react to them. But we can easily assume that Amaram fooled them too with his story. Still, i don't think they're the kind of people who would just drop a lead, Kaladin was safely under their radar somehow. Perhaps, but if they had a fabrial or whathever somehow emulating the screamers in Kholinar, wouldn't it go crazy with all the tech around ? Note that Kaladin's surges weren't on the quite side of the spectrum from what we saw, it wouldn't have been too hard to mark him once his powers manifested prior to being protected by his position with Dalinar. Syl was among the Stormfather's first batch of child spren, back then i understood that Honor was still alive, so perhaps he helped in her shaping somehow ? Even intentionally gave something of himself in the process ?

Yeah following a trail left by lesser spren would make sense, though it would lead to quite a few goose chases, as the attributes of the lesser spren don't quite match their higher cousin's requirements. So i could see this working for say the Cryptics who are seen to investigate their potential partners prior to the crossing. The Windspren are a mystery to me though, what would make them flock to a person who's feet never left the ground ? The way he moved while fighting ? If your theory is true that would add to how risky Syl's move was. Timbre and Elhokar's spren are indications that this is possible, it is far from ideal as the spren could end up lost and mindless which explains the care taken by the orders we've seen to carefully select a predisposed candidate. As for the time it takes to form a bond, i'd say little, Lopen is seen chasing Rua around for the first time in Rlain's pov ( we see him looking under a rock for no reason -> the game they play at his later pov ) and he speaks the second ideal only a few weeks later, so he must have switched from squire to radiant at some point in that time window. I doubt it's different between orders, the time it takes probably depends on the human side,i suppose the sooner they start embracing their spren's "code" the sooner the bond forms. I've also been wondering about this, i can't guess how they pinpoint their targets, Kaladin aside we have Shallan who not only had bonded a spren but had advanced enough to summon a blade and has been using her surges, she checks every possible box in their hit list and we know Nale has no trouble executing little girls, why she's still around i can't begin to say. They only found out about her when her mother informed her Skybreaker friend/lover, and of course the idiot didn't see fit to inform his order of what he was planning to do ( if Mraize didn't lie about his affiliation of course ).

@Aleksiel Do we know how long Nale has been on his mission ? That would tell us if some orders were less reluctant to return than others, unless of course other spren have been doing what Syl did.

That's in part why i mentioned the Skybreakers' hunt, we can't know whether or not the Council had been looking elsewhere before, perhaps as they grew more desperate they started limiting the range of their search. Yes you're right, It wasn't really criticism, it IS the smart thing to do, i was just playing with another possible explanation. But now that i think of it, what are higher spren attracted to ? Thoughts ? Then they watch the actions for confirmation ?

@PhineasGage We have to keep in mind a few things too : For one they no longer had the time to scout the whole continent, the desolation was imminent. Nale was running around butchering radiants so we can't say for sure how far they roamed before settling for their close vicinity. And it's also safe to assume spren are as a rule rather lazy, they tend to flock to other radiants looking for a fit, as evidenced in this very book by the Honorspren, there could be better candidates out there than Kaladin's squires, yet they all chose to go to them. Nothing stops an independent spren from looking far afield, but most would go for the easier path.

For the bit about whether Nightblood draws from the victim and wielder simultaneously, when Lift inadvertantly offered herself up at the end by trying to use regrowth on Szeth, the blade's focus seemed to shift immediatly to her, i don't know if it kept feeding on Szeth but i doubt it as he was quite low already and he should have died if it had. I'd like to know how you guys understood this part. It would also make sense if Nightblood's instinct was to keep its wielder alive as long as possible, feeding instead on whatever was within reach.

Come on guys, let's not turn this into an Adolin (+fandom) bashing contest. Try to rein in the condescension.

This is an interesting question, as no i think it wouldn't be if the other personnas were pure fabrications, this isn't Shallan's case who has been chipping at her Self bit by bit and attaching the pieces to different personnas. There's no arguing against this, it simply didn't bother me in this particular case because nothing came to contradict my assumptions.

Yes i can understand that this kind of teasing was arguably of poor taste knowing that there were readers with higher expectations from this particular plot, personaly when i read it i only shook my head and smiled, it didn't really change my mind on how i thought the affair would likely be handled. The only thing i can say in its defence is that it didn't feel forced as the reasoning that led to it was sound. I don't quite agree with this though, it is one thing for Dalinar's opposition to assume the worst and act on it, but it would have been far worse if the factions he was still reaching to include knew for a fact that the Blackthorn was still executing all who stood in his way, it would be fruitless speculation to try to predict what would have happened instead, but i think it's not a stretch to assume it would have been far more difficult to earn the trust of the other monarchs. I can't comment accurately on Adolin's character development yet, i need to find the time to reread his povs, but aren't the reasons that pushed him to kill Sadeas enough for him not to feel guilty about it ?