Darvys

Meh, a bit of hysteria will be nice. Want to count the number of readers who will be willing to give up their firstborn for a Shallan excerpt when the time comes ? Myself, i don't really share the feeling, that's because i believe that you shippers and i (yeah, i'll never admit to it) are right in our assumptions concerning Shallan's arc in this book, it's the doubt that's creating so much tension, once you accept that what we've been guessing is what's been intended it all kinda fits, we might have hoped for it to be clearer from the text, but that would be no fun either.

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

I can't believe this thread is still going strong, i guess with new people completing the book at different times we'll be discussing this for a few weeks more. I'm just jumping in again because i'm annoyed at people blaming Brandon for what some readers took away from the book, people will see what they want to see, there are enough signs for anyone paying attention and i won't hold Brandon responsible for someone who'll pick wrong life advice by misunderstanding the story. If you look to fiction to validate your life choices, well let's just say that what Brandon writes is the least of your troubles. That aside, it's painfull to see the lack of faith in Brandon here, it didn't take any amount of genius to see that there was something deeply wrong with Shallan's behavior (particularly) in the last few povs, it's not a stretch to assume that among all the people who read previous versions of the book, there would be at least one willing to voice these same complaints we've ben rehashing here. So if Brandon decided to go with it as is anyway, maybe that's because he's not quite done and we only saw one stage of a longer than expected arc. Sure, there were some akward moments, and things we would have wanted to see didn't happen, so what ? We're dealing with awkward characters each trying to deal with a mess of problems and some are failing spectacularly. Even if i'm wrong and Brandon did take the cringeworthy path despite all the awesomeness we got from him, maybe the least we can do is wait to have confirmation before we start crying and tearing our clothes and hair in despair ?

@Beatsmorn For the 4th and 5th you can't take the Skybreakers as an example, as their mad Herald patron is preaching that you can't trust your own mind and judgement which goes completely opposite to what their 5th ideal demands. I can't say if in the past all Radiants got there eventually, but i'm sure it wasn't nearly as rare an event as the Masters made it sound.

How is this relevant to what i said ? I didn't say that the disorder was a consequence or cause of the lack, but a possible consequence of forcing yourself to face painful truths you're not quite ready to handle.

Because advancing in their order requires them to admit and face truths that they for whatever reason decided to lock away, and like with Shallan the more extreme cases might face the same struggles to cope ?

If as you assume Odium got that much out of her, it wouldn't be a stretch at all to link her state to the one order that would be deeply vulnerable to such disorders, yet later he sends his minions to search for an Elsecaller and an inkspren, which is what his spies in Urithiru would have told him about the redhaired Radiant. I think Odium would put more stock with his own conclusions than hearsay.

That would depend on how much you have left, if your reserves are low, one second of flight could easily halve them or worse, whereas when you're flush it would barely be a drop in an ocean.

Hmm, hovering so much that he made her feel he hated her ? The difference here is that Dalinar still had feelings for her, and she was at least still fond of him. I take Kaladin's claim at the end of OB as a true reflection of his feelings, he's over his crush. And if, as i hope, he's out of the picture that wouldn't leave us with much of an analogy. I would cringe if the payoff of this arc is to have our two star radiants finally reach the best version of themselves and then meet at the end of the 5 book long road. This isn't about Adolin's intention but Shallan's response to his actions, which are painful to consider further. Evi wasn't convinced that he was better than he appeared, she was convinced he had it in him to become a better man, big difference there and it turns out she was right. Worse than he knows ? If you mean her mental state then sure, but as a person, if anything she's far stronger than he ever dreamed. How he'll react to the reveal is anyone's guess, let's just hope it'll allow him to see that the bits and pieces of Shallan he realizes he never knew actually fit with Veil's and Radiant's character. How this realisation will play with Veil's continued swooning and Radiant's indifference (?) to him is bound to bring interesting things. So i guess i'm ok with the Evi-Dalinar hovering faintly over the marriage, so long as Kaladin remains out of its repercussions. @DimChatz With a name like that i'm counting on you to come up with a fitting symbol too.

Upvoted for the new perspective, but i'm not sure how the story taking that path would be made to fit the current dynamic, while Evi wanted to change Dalinar, our whole problem with Adolin is that he's happy to keep Shallan stuck with a third of her personna. If the only issue Shallan had with him is that he was too lovey it would fall flat for me. Right now Shallan is embracing Adolin's image of her while Dalinar kept pushing the other way, unable to rein his nature in. Perhaps this is the twist that would add some spice to the symmetry, but that means Shallan would need to get on her own to a point where she can no longer be confined by Adolin's perception of her, don't know how that would happen after all the failures we saw in this book. That aside, i also don't like the Navani = Kaladin aspect of the analogy, I want him to be free from Shallan (romantically) from now on, not keep hovering around like a vulture waiting for an opening, and the knowledge that any relationship he builds in the near future is just a placeholder wouldn't satisfy me.

That would be too much, i don't see Skybreakers sacrificing innocents to get to their target, and what crime could Tien possibly have commited to justify their taking action ? No, i think if Tien truly was the target in question, they were just happy to cross him off their list after that cremhole sergent sent him to his death.

It will depend on when Szeth will begin his crusade, it will make the most sense for his flashbacks to accompany that mission. I'd bet on next book, and leave the listener flashbacks for book 5 when Venli will in all likelihood backstab Odium.

Would they be at liberty to share Brandon's response to their feedback and the things that were changed as a result ? If not, i don't think it'll serve us for this issue.

Someone needs to ask him again, this wouldn't be consistent with what Szeth's master explained : "The second is the Ideal of Justice, an oath to seek and administer justice". Justice and law aren't always tied, this might be a case in which Brandon changed his mind.

Where does the first version come from ?

That's what some individuals chose to swear to as their 3rd ideal, not all of them, if you swore to follow the law there would be no one to give you a contradictory order.

Once again, they never swore to uphold any particular set of laws, so yes they would follow the person they swore to. This would be at best naive.

What is in your view this place that law and social power come from ?

I'd add to this that in case of conflict, you'd follow your own judgement, otherwise there wouldn't be much point to it. We'll have to wait and see how the oath is worded to know for sure.

You tried to redress a big misconception by stating a smaller one, i would remind you of the Fifth Ideal which shows that Skybreakers should strive to hone their own judgement not shelve it, i believe the current generation has been tainted by Nale's conviction that one's mind is not to be trusted and that they should all rely on an external code, the result of this is that there hasn't been a Full Skybreaker in centuries.

This i believe is the root of your problem, your argument is disconnected from reality.

At no point did you address their oaths, maybe start there to explain the inconsistency you perceive ?

Nale addressed this issue previously, he used to be merciful where the laws permitted but then noticed that his mercy more often than not led to recidivism, so he started leaving corpses behind. You took my statement a little out of context, i was arguing that Skybreakers were not bound to respond every time they're called upon to enforce a law, as those laws aren't always just.

Sure ? As much as i can be of something not spelled out in the book. Nale himself cherry picks the crimes he's going to see punished, he explaines this by his being a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal but that wouldn't preclude a compulsion to see laws enforced if such a compulsion existed. I can't say, but that would explain why i have that impression wouldn't it.

People, remember that Skybreakers are before anything else Knights radiant, there is no ideal binding them to enforce the laws, they can choose to but they are not obligated. They could choose to swear to the Law as their 3rd but that's to each knight's discretion. Remember that in the past, Skybreakers enforced the laws of the silver kingdoms which we can assume were fair, in the present they are at leisure to ignore any nonsensical law governments can come up with. @luminos It's not exactly the singer's claim to the land that Nale bows to, it's Odium's by right of conquest. In his mind humanity's contest for ownership of the land ended in defeat at the death of Honor, now that the new master is back he feels obligated to serve him, this is why some of us assume he was so ruthless in his attempt to forestall this desolation, he knew what his honor would demand of him if it were to happen.