Darvys

Now that you mention this, when the Alethi troups fused with the voidspren, Kaladin mentioned that the flames representing their souls had turned red. So perhaps people with a Nahel bond can be detected thanks to a similar effect, we'd have Highspren in Shadesmar looking for these unusual souls, and pointing the Skybreakers in their direction in the physical. This could account for bonded radiants, but not protoradiants.

Always knew god metals were overrated, this is the real thing to burn. Your mention of "loudness" in surgebinding made me go on this tangent. I was refering to the spren in kholinar who detect the use of fabrials (and surgebinding, according to Kaladin's experiment), i was saying that if the Skybreakers had a device that could mimick the ability it would go haywire with all the fabrials around, so wathever they're using to detect surgebinders must work on a different principle.

The obvious would be that Fused refers to a fusion between a Parshman body and the Listener spirit, not the spirit itself. I don't think we have confirmation that they only access a single surge either do we ?

If anything, refusing the shards would have been the telling part, knowing how radiants react to them. But we can easily assume that Amaram fooled them too with his story. Still, i don't think they're the kind of people who would just drop a lead, Kaladin was safely under their radar somehow. Perhaps, but if they had a fabrial or whathever somehow emulating the screamers in Kholinar, wouldn't it go crazy with all the tech around ? Note that Kaladin's surges weren't on the quite side of the spectrum from what we saw, it wouldn't have been too hard to mark him once his powers manifested prior to being protected by his position with Dalinar. Syl was among the Stormfather's first batch of child spren, back then i understood that Honor was still alive, so perhaps he helped in her shaping somehow ? Even intentionally gave something of himself in the process ?

Yeah following a trail left by lesser spren would make sense, though it would lead to quite a few goose chases, as the attributes of the lesser spren don't quite match their higher cousin's requirements. So i could see this working for say the Cryptics who are seen to investigate their potential partners prior to the crossing. The Windspren are a mystery to me though, what would make them flock to a person who's feet never left the ground ? The way he moved while fighting ? If your theory is true that would add to how risky Syl's move was. Timbre and Elhokar's spren are indications that this is possible, it is far from ideal as the spren could end up lost and mindless which explains the care taken by the orders we've seen to carefully select a predisposed candidate. As for the time it takes to form a bond, i'd say little, Lopen is seen chasing Rua around for the first time in Rlain's pov ( we see him looking under a rock for no reason -> the game they play at his later pov ) and he speaks the second ideal only a few weeks later, so he must have switched from squire to radiant at some point in that time window. I doubt it's different between orders, the time it takes probably depends on the human side,i suppose the sooner they start embracing their spren's "code" the sooner the bond forms. I've also been wondering about this, i can't guess how they pinpoint their targets, Kaladin aside we have Shallan who not only had bonded a spren but had advanced enough to summon a blade and has been using her surges, she checks every possible box in their hit list and we know Nale has no trouble executing little girls, why she's still around i can't begin to say. They only found out about her when her mother informed her Skybreaker friend/lover, and of course the idiot didn't see fit to inform his order of what he was planning to do ( if Mraize didn't lie about his affiliation of course ).

@Aleksiel Do we know how long Nale has been on his mission ? That would tell us if some orders were less reluctant to return than others, unless of course other spren have been doing what Syl did.

That's in part why i mentioned the Skybreakers' hunt, we can't know whether or not the Council had been looking elsewhere before, perhaps as they grew more desperate they started limiting the range of their search. Yes you're right, It wasn't really criticism, it IS the smart thing to do, i was just playing with another possible explanation. But now that i think of it, what are higher spren attracted to ? Thoughts ? Then they watch the actions for confirmation ?

@PhineasGage We have to keep in mind a few things too : For one they no longer had the time to scout the whole continent, the desolation was imminent. Nale was running around butchering radiants so we can't say for sure how far they roamed before settling for their close vicinity. And it's also safe to assume spren are as a rule rather lazy, they tend to flock to other radiants looking for a fit, as evidenced in this very book by the Honorspren, there could be better candidates out there than Kaladin's squires, yet they all chose to go to them. Nothing stops an independent spren from looking far afield, but most would go for the easier path.

For the bit about whether Nightblood draws from the victim and wielder simultaneously, when Lift inadvertantly offered herself up at the end by trying to use regrowth on Szeth, the blade's focus seemed to shift immediatly to her, i don't know if it kept feeding on Szeth but i doubt it as he was quite low already and he should have died if it had. I'd like to know how you guys understood this part. It would also make sense if Nightblood's instinct was to keep its wielder alive as long as possible, feeding instead on whatever was within reach.

Come on guys, let's not turn this into an Adolin (+fandom) bashing contest. Try to rein in the condescension.

This is an interesting question, as no i think it wouldn't be if the other personnas were pure fabrications, this isn't Shallan's case who has been chipping at her Self bit by bit and attaching the pieces to different personnas. There's no arguing against this, it simply didn't bother me in this particular case because nothing came to contradict my assumptions.

Yes i can understand that this kind of teasing was arguably of poor taste knowing that there were readers with higher expectations from this particular plot, personaly when i read it i only shook my head and smiled, it didn't really change my mind on how i thought the affair would likely be handled. The only thing i can say in its defence is that it didn't feel forced as the reasoning that led to it was sound. I don't quite agree with this though, it is one thing for Dalinar's opposition to assume the worst and act on it, but it would have been far worse if the factions he was still reaching to include knew for a fact that the Blackthorn was still executing all who stood in his way, it would be fruitless speculation to try to predict what would have happened instead, but i think it's not a stretch to assume it would have been far more difficult to earn the trust of the other monarchs. I can't comment accurately on Adolin's character development yet, i need to find the time to reread his povs, but aren't the reasons that pushed him to kill Sadeas enough for him not to feel guilty about it ?

Went looking for the passage, i think back there he was just ignoring her while she was having something of a fit, the "mmm"s he gave her are what i expect from someone who can't be bothered to answer. We also saw in her later exchange with Kaladin that she doesn't have much trouble thinking of her killing Tyn. I could be wrong, but that's how i read that bit. Hm, i think it was what needed to be done, yes. I don't agree however that it was glossed over, once you accept that Adolin was smart enough not to just blurt out his guilt and risk dooming his father's efforts at unifying the high princes and later Roshar just to ease his conscience, you can begin to see that events unfolded in a realistic manner. There was nothing linking Adolin to the murder, i doubt forensic science is a thing on Roshar so there was no way for the investigation to lead anywhere, as for repercussions of the murder, Sadeas's soldiers assumed it was Dalinar and we saw how that ended, Ialai did what little she could to hamper Dalinar, if you think there's more she could have done to any effect, i'm curious to know what. For the personal level, Adolin has only just come clean with his father, it's too soon to guess how that will affect their relationship, and Shallan took it the way you'd expect a woman who was forced to kill three people that we know of to. If you expected more from this arc, i'd like to know what exactly.

I could believe that for the common soldiers, but judging from Amaram's later interaction with Odium, it is clear he had made some kind of deal.

The difference is that there was never any evidence pointing to the existence of a Sadeas sub-plot, it was blown out of proportion by the fans, you shouldn't expect the author to pander to it. As for the skipped scenes, yes there are some that would have been interesting to watch, but that doesn't come close to comparing to the hamfisted way some readers believe the author is treating this arc. I believe your scepticism is something of an overreaction.

Up until the moment he realised his religion was a lie and decided to help wipe out humanity instead ?

Give us a week or two, we'll get there if we aren't already. As for the points you made, i don't think we're grasping at straws, if only because there is far more at stake here than a simple ship or romantical plotline, throughout this thread discussions have mostly revolved around Shallan's character development and her dealing with her mental issues, these aren't things i believe Brandon would ever drop the ball on, so regardless of your faith in his ability to portray satisfying romance you should at least trust that he would never butcher one of his main characters in the way this "resolution" would convey.

I think he hasn't gotten to that point quite yet, he's still only just coming to terms with the fact that he was never truthless, when the other implications start hitting ... Well, Nightblood might get as much action as he could possibly crave.

Wow, was rereading part 3 and noted a disturbing bit of dialogue in chapter 74 : “Mmmm … Why are you so happy about feeding so few?” “Feeding these few is something we can do.” “So is jumping from a building,” he said—frank, as if he didn’t understand the sarcasm he used. “But we do not do this. You lie, Shallan.” “Veil.” “Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm…” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.” Of course Shallan then went on with her day as if nothing disturbing just happened. Pattern seeming oblivious to his use of sarcasm as opposed to satisfied humming which implies an actual lack of understanding of both her simple statement and what sarcasm is, talking drowsily ... Is it too late to jump in the "Pattern is dying" bandwagon ? For the people looking for similarities with Syl's case, how's this for you ?

He said after swearing the 3rd oath that he felt the spren's (singular) approval though it still wouldn't show itself to him. There's something else worth noting, at some point he tells Nightblood that he reminds him of another voice he used to hear in his head when he was younger, it is my assumption that Szeth had already bonded a spren long ago, and his bond was dormant since until he started speaking the oaths, after all we still don't know how he came by the knowledge that had him exiled as Truthless, what better source than a radiant spren warning him of a coming desolation ?

Aren't we putting too much weight on Brandon's specific choice here ? He could simply have been hinting at a link to Odium (and his unmade) and not to voidbinding in particular, if he wanted to give a clear answer he could have just said it. Still we can guess at it. Forewarning, i suck at magic related speculation : If a spren is a bit of a Shard's investiture gaining sentience we can easily assume that the type of power (void vs surge) it grants will depend on the Shard that gave it birth, now what if to corrupt a spren Sja-Anat were to somehow inject some of her own investiture (which is of Odium) into a spren born of another Shard, would that change the essence of the spren, making it something brand new with access to both power sources ? It could fit.

This is something of a tangent but couldn't let this slide unanswered. That's what Pattern understood as it was in lign with his expectation that she'd kill him at some point, i don't think she was talking to him, but to the woman who ruined her childhood. Maybe that misconception on his side is what makes him keep his distance, but i'm more inclined to it just being his nature as a Cryptic. Shallan was never seen to behave in a way or say something that would point to her resenting their bond, she found the use of the sword revolting because of the memories it brought, but in her mind there was a distinction between the spren and the weapon. In Shadesmar, we get few povs with them just chilling to be able to have conversations, they're mostly on the run, even Kaladin had only a few exchanges with Syl, beyond that if you've read the thread you'll have passed a few theories that might explain Pattern's aloofness in this book, relating to a supposed fraying of his bond with Shallan (and not because she hates him).

The betrayal was in the lie, why say that the war was over when for all you knew it could have restarted the next year ? They lulled the people into a sense of security that left them completely unprepared to deal with the desolation when it came. Sure after four millenia vigilence would have been close to nonexistent but well; so many things would have gone differently, hard to say it the result would have been better or worse, it at least certainly wasn't the right thing to do.

I said i have no morality issue with this, yes if you know for sure that sacrificing ten people will save mankind go for it, unless you believe your clear conscience is worth the extinction of your species. With that in mind, numbers matter to the extent that you'll try to save as many as you can with as little cost as possible. Amaram is different because his motives aren't quite pure, you can't put someone who was aiming to start the desolation to somehow grant power to the church (and himself by extension) on the same boat as people doing what they can to survive.

1. Kaladin : I think she was in part baiting the only unkown to her in that room, trying to figure out what he's made of, she was quick to drop the subject after a simple counterargument drom Dalinar, an argument you'd think she would have tought of herself, the smile at the end gives some credence to my assumption. 2. Shallan : For all her accomplishments, she still behaves like the kid she is, for all her good intentions she's a wild card and probably the least reliable radiant in the tower. So i'm all for Jasnah trying to whip her into shape. You also can't compare Jasnah to Taravangian (let's just not bring Amaram into this, ok ?) who in his despair is willing to sacrifice most of mankind to save a few while relying on the mercy of a known to be destructive entity. To be fair, we don't know the extent Jasnah would be willing to go and in all honesty i can't fault Taravangian for what he's trying to do, he's prepared to damnation himself to save his people and there's much to respect in that, meanwhile our heros are hoping things are going to somehow work out even though they're facing an ennemy who killed their "god" and already conquered half the continent in a couple months. PS : this forum's brand of censorship/cosmerisation can sometimes be annoying.