Darvys

This always felt off, is it confirmed in another WoB that the orders have 5 oaths each ? If so, it was an odd choice of formulation, just Brandon being mysterious by reflex ?

Perhaps Odium is sending his spren mainly to the weaker kingdoms ? why send them to Alethkar where they'll be hunted down and slaughtered the moment the portal is opened, only to then move them somewhere else ? I could easily see him targeting nations which, while vital for the war to come, lack the Alethi might to be able to reppel him.

I don't want him to give it to anyone at all, the Honorblades belong to the Heralds and them alone. What i mean is that if their power is needed in this crisis, at the very least give each to a person in line with the ideals of the Herald it belonged to.

Oh how could i forget, Dalinar ignoring a bombshell again, like really ? the guy looking for his god casually ignores the mention of a power more ancient than Odium and Honor ? REALLY ?!

Wow, Shallan's spywork is just bad ... You just don't blurt out your mission and walk away the moment you get a drop of information, do better girl. Good thing Dalinar is aware how ridiculous it would be for him to fight the champion if it came to that, was worried for a moment. I also like how he handled Kadash, always good to see Dalinar capably defending his ideas instead of fumbling around. Still praying he won't be foolish enough to hand that Blade to anyone though i don't know how i feel about him bonding it himself, by right it should go to someone walking the Windrunner's path. Kaladin's side of the story progressing smoothly, really want to see how he deals with the voidspren.

@Shadowfax Funny, turns out i was the one who misunderstood your first post, i apologize. Still, transporting people to urithiru is important work, but in no way stressful or life threatening to Shallan (beyond the need to use her sword i mean). You are yet to consider in your answers the only point i believed to be relevant, time. When wielding the blade before, i sensed revulsion and hate from the text, not hurt. So as far as i'm concerned, it's not much of a leap to assume that. This is where i think you misstep, she never wanted to be someone else for Adolin's sake, not in WoR, not here. Whenever she tried to act more poised before was because that's who she herself wanted to become. (pause to go read the new chapters) Why would that suddenly change ? And what exactly happened between then a now ? What Pattern still fails to understand is how the admission impacted her. For the last quote my answer is already bolded in your message, she was already breaking down when she remembered Adolin, so sure that added to it, but would it have made much of a difference if someone else was present ? When she's always trying so hard to act as in control as Jasnah ? I don't believe it, but i have no real way of arguing against it, the circumstances were rather unique. Need to go reread her latest chapter with more care now, just skimmed it the first time.

This thread got scary real fast, hold on to your sanity guys, less than an hour to wait. We can make it.

@Shadowfax I speak of the days after they reached Urithiru ... @SLNC You guys have me wondering if you read the messages in full before answering ... Back then she hated the blade, but didn't even know why, she never allowed herself to think about it, so of course she'd use it, she barely even hesitated. Can't you see how the knowledge of her blade's "sin" can blow her reluctance out of proportion ? She doesn't need Radiant to summon her blade and stick it in a keyhole for half a second a few times each day, she needs her to wield the blade for hours on end without melting down under the wait of her latest Truth. By the way that Lyn quote is quite irrelevant, her relationship with Adolin isn't based on a lie, nor is she actively lying to keep it, Radiant is about helping herself deal with the blade, Adolin doesn't come into it, but of course you refuse to see this, so ... I believe i stated my points quite clearly, would be nice if you guys could take the time to read them.

@SLNC All those instances you mentioned were before she admited her mother's murder. Her days spent activating the oathgate would be more relevant, where was the threat then ? The only difference i see with her training session is the duration she would have to keep the blade summoned, the more time she spends wielding it, the more she gets to dwell on what she did, the more "pain" she feels, that was plain from the text itself. In her current state, if she were truly in a life or death situation i think she would either freeze and get herself killed or turn only to her surgebinding to save herself. Before Shallan shapes Radiant she doesn't think of spending time with Adolin, she doesn't think of training for the desolation, her mind stops at having to wield the blade, everything else is irrelevant, Adolin only comes in play when she tries to check wether he'll be fooled or not. As for Dalinar suggesting it, you really believe him pointing out that the training is vital would be enough to magicaly appease her ? I trust she's smart enough to realise despite her trauma that learning to fight is important, but i also believe this knowledge wouldn't stop her from weaseling out of it if she could find a credible reason. Forunately, she can't and as i pointed out, duration is key, so yes, she'll use her sword if she has to, but that doesn't change the fact that it becomes unbearable after a while, wether she's training with an ardent or her bethroted doesn't matter. Also, doing something important doesn't make it a "life or death" situation, else she'd be able to eat with a shardfork as well .

@SLNC You contradict yourself in almost every post, being the cause/responsible is basicaly the same thing. You also state that what could have happened in another situation is irrelevant because we can't know and this already happened so whatever, i don't think i appreciate this line of thought as it would make any kind of speculation pointless, thinking about what could have happened if Shallan had been confronted by another character and her possible reaction helps us understand her actual state of mind and why she chose to do what she did, just because the conclusion some posters reached makes your point moot doesn't mean it's futile. Even if i go along with your arguement, Adolin is the only trigger, without him Shallan would have had no need to shape Radiant, how do you have seen her progressing past her block ? Why would she even confess to anyone ? The only truths she ever shared are those she already fully embraced, without Radiant, how would anyone have even a reason to suspect what's going on ? according to you she would just have been able to evade anyone else with more lies. The way i see it, you should be thanking Adolin, as he's the only one, according to you who can, if not push her to open up, place her in a position where she is bound to screw up and attract the attention of those who can help her (himself included).

I want that cape Dalinar gave Kaladin to get blown to Urithiru by the next highstorm, i was annoyed more than i care to admit when it failed to reappear after that early WoR chapter.

I don't think Kaladin's case is comparable to what we have here, there was no problem with him bonding Syl as she was not only alive, but pure, never used to commit any atrocities. He also didn't have a problem with using Pattern in the chasm when his back was to a wall, like it was stated Kaladin was reppeled by what owning a balde came to represent, not simply the weapons themselves. Whereas Shallan's own blade was involved in her trauma, so she started blaming it for what happened, what she needs isn't someone who can tell her it's ok to use the blades, nor someone who shows her how lovely the blades are, but someone who can help her realise that the blade, which IS Pattern, wasn't responsible for what happened that night. I don't know who this person is going to be, Shallan is too focused on pleasing Adolin to, in her mind, risk losing him by revealing too much, so if they're going to open up to each other, the first step will probably have to be taken by Adolin, who hasn't shown any inclination to do so from what we've seen, the only chance of this happening is if something is discovered during the investigation which forces the issue. Kaladin on the other hand, has been shown to be perceptive, and so is far more likely to notice how off Shallan's behavior is at times, add to that their shared experience in the chasm ... It really can go, and work, either way. I'd still place my bet on Adolin, Kal is off heroing around and won't be back to the tower for a while i assume, and this isn't an issue i'd like to see stretched too long. I know it'll take time to be resolved, but i doubt she can endure it long before at least starting the process.

@Kersplattle We know so little about the recreance, my brain always balks at the prospect of speculating about it, but still, nothing better to do with the little we got this week. I'll get nowhere with this, but oh well ... It's already hard enough to try to justify it as a group action, but if we take the knights individualy, what could possibly push someone like Kaladin to not only turn his back on humanity, but on Syl, knowing it would kill her ? i can't imagine it's something others have done or are doing, that's why i always entertained the idea of a betrayal by the spren. The stormfather's unwillingness to speak of it and Taravangian's belief that the same secret could destroy the orders again doesn't help, why would the current radiants care what happened millenia ago ? unless the same lies or whatever are still being perpetuated. I'm always thrown back to Kaladin's exchange with Syl back in WoK, about how a parshendi bonded to an honorspren would have been compelled to fight against him, it really shows, to me, how the knights can be chained to fight for a questionable cause, imposed by the side of the conflict they happen to fall in. Convenient then that parshendi can't be bonded for no apparent reason, despite their becoming closest to Honor from what we've seen. Right now I'm really curious about how this all started, more than i am about how it will end. Odium's champ can go to hell, give me a prequel please, i'm dying. Bah, i'm just rambling, i don't know what to make of any of this, just go back to bashing each other about your favorite love stories, i'm growing sick of all the pairings before they even had a chance to happen.

Is there any WoB or accepted theory about how a lightweaver can break his oaths ? Supress the same truths he gave his spren or just dig himself deeper in denial of some unrelated matter ?

Right now they'll need someone who can stop the human armies from slauthering them on sight, Rlain is the only listener even close to a position to do that, and that only through Kaladin, so ...

He scratched off the chalk marking only, not the wall i think.

Now i'm reminded, how did she even know he could do that ? i doubt she would have discussed the extent of his abilities in bladeform seeing how unwilling she is to confront that side of him. Probably just a matter of shape anyway, nevermind.

Anyone else got a bad feeling when Syl was ready to help Kaladin slaughter helpless parshendi ? I don't really trust the spren, and little things like this always make me anxious.

It's strange, the only explanation i can think of is that there aren't enough voidspren to go around, because what could a parshman do that a voidbringer bound to Odium's will (i assume) can't do better ?

@Elena True, i'm also far more interested in Elhokar's reaction than Dalinar's when they find out, especially since we'll also probably get to know the details of the whole Roshone incident. I figure he'll have a fit at first as he's wont to, before taking a moment and trying to understand how it came to happen. But now that you mention Dalinar's plan to open the oathgate ... Am i the only one amazed at how retarded it is ? Did everyone forget Szeth already ? Kaladin could walk like a god through the rioting city, if his mere presence doesn't stop the chaos in a wide radius around him, you can at least be sure that no one will try to hinder him. He doesn't need a team, he doesn't even need to sneak in, he could walk right to the temple, blow the door open if he has to, and activate the device in less than a minute. Well, now i'm going to go wait patiently for tomorrow's fix, see you all then.

It would take him weeks to reach the capital on foot from the shattered plains, and weeks for any reinforcement he asks for to get there, so no, the smart move is to wait for the oathgate to be opened. What makes you yawn will happen but we won't need to see it, we don't follow characters through their whole day, he'll have plenty of time to get involved with the more important matters. If Elhokar isn't suited to solve the Kholinar riot, then Adolin isn't much better, he's also nothing but a lighteyed prince taking part in the opression by your own take on the rebellion. This isn't much of a discussion if all you offer is the author will think of something better, i don't even think of it as an arc, his father has been neglecting his duties as Highprince for a while, Adolin and his officers were left in charge, all this will do is officialise the transition. And you need to make up your minds, either the Highprince position is time consuming and will prevent Adolin from doing anything else of import, or it's a meaningless role that Dalinar can keep since the princedom runs itself ... The middle ground is where you'll find me, taking charge of the princedom will come with some responsibilities, but not nearly enough to chain Adolin down and restrict him to the role. I'll be really curious to know what inate qualities you believe make a person a born good leader or doomed to failure ... Elhokar is neither brilliant nor stupid, he is average, average can get you a long way if you're willing to put in the effort. What do you even think leading an army to Kholinar entails ? he's spent enough time around presumably great military minds to pick up what he needs to know to pull out a basic task like this, he won't be formulating intricate strategies, he'll be bringing order to a city in chaos, the Kholin army can do this in their sleep, he won't have to give a single order. Anyway this will go nowhere, Elhokar will have to wait with everyone for the portal to be opened, unless Dalinar screws up and gives him the blade. Most human interactions can be perceived as munipulative, intent is what matters, Elhokar's was never to undermine his uncle, in the context of his paranoia, it makes sense to try anything to see who he can trust. Elhokar was spoiled, yes, Dalinar's fault not his, as even Sadeas pointed out, doesn't make Elhokar evil, it just adds a hurdle to his path toward bettering himself. I agree with you he is still lying to himself, he'll soon be desabused of the idea, and we'll have to wait and see how he'll take it, but if we're throwing our opinions around, then i think he'll surprise you and accept to set foot on the harder path. For the flawed pov, i distance myself enough from the characters to not take their impressions at face value, so no,i don't believe Elhokar is fooling me, i took in all his appearances and put 1 and 1 together. I find your comment about Adolin turning evil amusing, as i believe your theory about Elhokar walking this path nearly as baseless. The nearly part is why i'm willing to discuss it whereas i simply ignore the former.

Adolin is stuck in the tower, same as everyone. And even if he wasn't, what do you expect him to do ? go help with the construction ? he'll get reports via spanreed and send his orders the same way, when the oathgate is opened, he can come and go as he pleases, as the portal is in his city. And restructuring and training their armies is not wasting him away, it's giving him an important task fitting his rank and qualifications. The exploring and micromanaging were Adolin's idea, to get his mind away from his current situation. As i said, they will soon realise that there is no time for games, they don't have time for them, and the author doesn't either. But yes, decisions will need to be made, some "boring" meetings will have to take place, what would you rather have him do ? Travel to some forgotten mountain on a quest to find his true self ? please. Adolin will still have to deal with what he did, and get over his insecurities, an eventual ascension changes nothing to that. Well, Elhokar just expressed that need, and Navani seemed to think it fair. Nobody mentioned it before because no one paused to think about it,and that's pretty telling to me. What Elhokar did was reach out to the man who neatly sidelined him in an attempt to get a workable solution to the whole usurpation problem. We know nothing of Elhokar's abilities, he's been kept away from any meaningfull role in the war effort, all we've been allowed to see of him is the foolish extent of his paranoia and his naivety, both are flaws that can be overcome. I don't expect him to suddenly dazzle us with his brilliance, but i believe he will stop letting any passing lighteye make a fool out of him, and start using the brain he's got in his skull for something other than whining. The rebellion is against the queen nof the king, for all the people know, he's been busy avenging their old king, fighting evil parshmen who turned out to be voidbringers. The author can spin this any way he wants. No one is born a good leader, Elhokar probably spent his life believing that by virtue of his high birth he already had the requisite qualities to be one, now he is starting to realise that he in fact isn't, and actually needs to better himself if he has any hope of becoming one.I wouldn't give up on him just yet. Manipulative liar ? Elhokar couldn't maneuver a fly out a window, he never tried to undermine Dalinar, his paranoia led him to grow suspicious of everyone around him, which in turn led to his 'test'. That one on one moment you seem so willing to discard was the first glimpse we had of Elhokar's true character, his budding self awareness and the lengths he'd be willing to go to be worthy of his title. And the point was never for him to abdicate, but to put clear lines separating his authority from Dalinar's, while allowing the latter to keep the upperhand as far as surviving the desolation is concerned. Can't believe i'm here defending the guy, never even spared him a second thought while reading, thought it was transparent ...

When did a storm ever blow from the west, ravaging every village and field in its way before now ? i'd guess highprinces will have to earn their wages in the coming weeks.

pretty much, not entirely, someone needs to make big decisions and give guidelines, someone who isn't sworn to care for the whole world, so as to avoid conflicts of interest.

This really doesn't change much for Dalinar, he could not remain highprince in good conscience, he can't afford to prioritize his own people anymore or spare the time to answer their needs and oversee the princedom, Adolin was bound to take over the moment they set foot in the tower. This won't necessarily cripple his developpement, the time for internal Alethi politics is over, we'll have some drama about Sadeas's murder and the succession then we'll move on to bigger things. Besides the princedoms pretty much run themselves, Adolin won't be required to stay away from all the action, he'll remain in charge of the Alethi forces. As for Elhokar taking a step to wrest back some control over his own kingdom, it was long overdue, the way Dalinar is behaving, you'd think the Alethi armies were sworn to protect Roshar, running around from oathgate to oathgate while their homes lay ruined. Dalinar still needs to figure out what his role is, and how this war will have to be fought. Someone needs to speak for the Alethi when everyone is thinking of somehow saving the whole world, and it looks like that's going to be their king, fitting huh ? I also don't get all the suspicion towards Elhokar, what did he even say to warrant all of this ? that people should figure out what they want and seize it ? That's basic common sense, and we know since WoR what it is Elhokar wants, to be a hero, to be seen as a great king. And right now he got it in his head that ending the riots in the capital will get him closer to that goal. How you see duplicity and evil in this, i just don't know.