Odium's_Shard

I agree, I will amend that the secondary attribute only strengthens the Nahel bond, and isn't necessary in every instant for the bond to be used to activate a Surge, just to increase the power.

I agree that dirt would not be a suitable ingestive for an Allomancer, nor do I recommend spearing somebody with Allomantic potential with a spike of chalk. EDIT: Can't spell.

^ He used a hammer and the additional force granted to him by Shardplate.

Dalinar seems pretty sure that he activated the Old Magic, and just didn't want to discuss its exact nature with Renalin and Adolin. He also seems to remember the boon he asked for (and doesn't tell us...) and has been told by everyone else of the clear exact (obvious) nature of the 'curse'. EDIT: But I am a personal fan of absurd theories. Well done, my friend. It made me sit back for a while and actually think: 'What if....'!

About your point about glyphs, men in Roshar write glyphs all the time with no effect. Can't remember the exact name they are given now. But it may be to do with men write words as opposed to symbols. However, I also was confused when Dalinar was asking himself why the Radiants, or whoever made Shardblades/plate, didn't make tools that were used to dig, or to farm, weave, or other actually useful things (of which war is NOT). My belief, as one of the 'Voidish Blades' "camp", is because their only purpose was to kill each other. They are only in existence, only so effective, only so DESTRUCTIVE, that Odium himself planted the Blades among men when the were kicked from the heavens. Only the Honorblades are different. After all, how could an Honorblade otherwisedly be different to a Shardblade? It presumably has the same power, prowess, destructive ability, but perhaps not the wait. Not all that useful an adaption for the Heralds. The only reason I can think of the Honorblades being better, is by being something of Honor. It's in the name, really. So there would be no reason for odium to give appropriate tools to nurture civilization, cultivation, or anything beneficial to the people of Roshar. Just implements of war, to inspire hatred, jealousy and desire in the world of Roshar to ripen it for the taking and the Everstorm, weaken their defenses while they trust in the Blades that will become defective when he truly arrives. The only argument against it would be: why did the Radiants then encourage this by GIVING them to everyone, making these emotions that Odium desired even more far-reaching than simply the Knights Radiant. Surely they should of hidden them, even if they did realise the taint and decide to give them up. They didn't have to actively SPREAD the taint (or maybe it was their intent...?). The only argument I can see against the Voidish Blades theory.

I agree with many points in your post, Telcontar, and so I, too, will grant you a proper answer. Make sure it continues! The epigraph is one hundred percent linked to Taravangian. If you remember, towards the end of the book when Taravangian takes Seth to see the 'hospital' in which he sort of kills people in order for them to spill these secrets about the world through what I shall coin 'death-perception', he does so by draining their blood. He recalls that a slow death gives better time to record samples. So, the 'healer' he speaks of is clearly Taravangian or one of his assistants, but I believe it to be Taravangian. This means that the symbolspren is hovering around Taravangian specifically. This means that he knows of Shadesmar, and perhaps of Soulcasting, and even more possible that he knows of Jasnah's/Shallan's inherent Soulcasting ability. So Taravangian knows of Shadesmar, and of the spren that 'guard' it. I take note of your point that we are unsure as to whether Jasnah also uses symbolspren for her access point, as she seems only to recall their purpose and vague uses. This means either she is unfamiliar with them/ cannot see them as she performs SC (new abbreviation of SoulCasting). The former means that Order 5 (or whatever Jasnah's order turns out to be) doesn't utilise symbolspren. I also take note of your point that the secondary attribute cannot facilitate the use of the appropriated Surge, but the strengthening of the Nahel bond. I will run with this for now. I had a weird feeling that perhaps they could just tell a liar. However I disagree with your point that we can definitely rule out the possibility that Taravangian isn't following the path of honesty in order to attract his symbolspren. I have a feeling we might all be wrong about Taravangian being 'evil'. Brandon has been shown to mess around with our perceptions of 'good' and 'bad' in the Mistborn series, in which Ruin, while continually portrayed as the 'evil' character, turned out to be just as honest and correct in what he does (destroy) as Preservation, and in fact towards the end it looked like what Preservation had done in ordering Ruin's demise was the worst offence. Perhaps Taravangian is in fact trying to save the world by 'destroying' it, or protecting it from those who would do it most harm (perhaps the corrupt higher-class would be the first to be tainted by Odium) or put them on guard so they are ready to protect their people against the coming Everstorm, the Final Desolation, and that Taravangian is far better informed about EVERYTHING than we previously imagined. Now, onto my own pet theory that spawned from defending myself from your constructive criticism (which I value, please, send more). Taravangian is behind Shallan's perception of truthspren. That's right. My theory is that Taravangian is linked to Shallan suddenly being able to see/hear/respond to the symbolspren. After all, he was there on the day where she first saw them. Why was she unable to see them before? She had the Memories, took them often, had the creativity, arguably had the honesty (or potential for truth, etc) that we have said should attract swarms of them to her. Why now? The answer: Taravangian. He gave Shallan access to the Sixth Order, and instead of the evil mastermind is infact: the Leader of the Knights Radiant. Or the giver of their power, etc. He might have given Jasnah her power. Kaladin, Dalinar, all under the thrall of the truest hero of all: the kindly old gentleman who harmlessly sucks the life from innocent, homeless victims to quench his insatiable thirst for knowledge about Realmatic Theory. Ok, that last statement was melodramatic. But I genuinely have the idea that Taravangian is behind the symbolspren, or at least Shallan's sudden contact with them. It is the only way I can see to explain the strange and sudeen happenings, and why they hadn;'t previously occurred if she did indeed fit the bill before coming into Taravangian's company. And after the first sighting, they suddenly swarm her! Taravangian's fault. Odium's_Shard Please help with your feedback!

That's true, but it would work the other way round too, if it was tied to your Cognitive aspect, it is better poised to taint your mind (the mind of an honorbound KR)! Better to give it to some lowly soldiers whose minds are already pretty tainted by whores, gambling, drink and boredom. This way, the KR are still on call if they are really needed, against Odium's Shard-filled army of gamblers, cheaters and drunkards. See? /patronizing rubbish But I like the point about the Cognitive aspect tie.

^ Your missing the point! The reason their culture is different from the Alethi is because the Parshendi are the GOOD GUYS! Th Dawnsingers, come ablaze. The description of 'Voidbringer' could refer to another thing, and the Parshendi are here to redeem us, not destroy us. It is the Alethi and their 'culture' that corrupts the world. The Parshendi are trying to put it right. By assassinating Gavilar because he was a good guy, they brought him to their side to see the light, as well as weaken the Alethi 'monarchy' so that they could reinstate a republic so as to better prepare them for the coming EVERSTORM! The Final Desolation! Odium is UPON us! 'Child of Tanavast! Child of honor! Child of one long since departed...' 'Three of sixteen once ruled, but now the Broken One reigns!' But your right, we don't exactly have much proof, and this post was more of a tease. Hope its true though. It would just be... a powerful message, and a strong plotline.

This all makes sense! It just... allow me to peruse my fancy vocabulary thesaurus for one moment... Ok, back. I want to post this in a fuller form that a simple comment, so here goes. I am going to argue what I will refer to as the 'fuel system' of a Shard. Bear with it, I have a feeling about this one! Firstly, you mentioned (in Windrunner's post): The first emphasis: conditions. Surely it would make sense for a Shard, a power of creation itself, to be conservative. It cannot afford to be otherwise. By conservative I mean, adjusts to what it has. So, Ruin and Preservation land (or travel to, unsure at this moment) on a Shardworld with excessive metallic deposits. Windrunner points this out: So, they focus on the metal. However, this doesn't seem to work when another Shard, who is accustomed to a different focus, is moved to a Shardworld on which their focus doesn't exist. How do their magic systems give access to the mortal inhabitants of the world? How does it work now? Well, it is my belief that they incorporate their Intent into the excess 'fuel' in order to shift focuses. However, I also feel that this is determined by the 'conditions', as I pointed out, and also b their previous adaptation. So, for example, Endowment moves to Scadrial. A system would then arise, not necessarily a balance magic, that incorporates both colour and metal into it. So, a Shard's power could be compared to fuel. It will run on whatever's available, however has to make compensations for the change. Blindness to metals, for one, on Preservation and Ruin's standpoint. Endowment may lose the ability of the Command in order to exchange it for the selectivity of metal combinations. However, one thing bugs me about the entire thing that I can't get a handle on. What happens to the 'mystical number'? I don't know what it is for Nalthis/Endowment. But for Scadrial/Harmony it is 16. How would they combine? Would it be averaged, so (say Endowment's number is 10), Endowment lands on Scadrial, new magic system thrown up operates around ([16+10]/2)= 13. Any thoughts? I'd appreciate them. EDIT: Needs improvement, at some point.

I feel that the primary makes the bond, whereas the secondary activates the Surge, ie performs the Lashing/Soulcasting etc. We see this with Kaladin. Kaladin leads, makes a Lashing. Shallan tells the truth, Soulcasting/Shadesmar sequence takes place. Please post any problems you have with this it may help make the point better,

This would work in line with the idea that in order to gain Surgebinding Powers, one has to interact with Honour's Intent, in order to Nahel bond with spren and give them sentience, and have to give oaths in the form of Ideals in order to do so. Thanks for the catch!

Haha. Dalinar would have a most problematic reunion with his 'dead' brother. Considering how well he lost his last wife, I wouldn't be too surprised if he accidentally left the previous wife of the King of Alethkar somewhere and never found her again. Gavilar wouldn't be too pleased, Parshendi/Dawnsinger/Voidbringer or not.

I think that to solve your problem about Brandon saying that Preservation-Endowment I have a handful of solutions: Brandon was unsure of the exact focus at the time of asking, as we saw when he was asked about Aona/Devotion, he might not have had the exact answer. Endowment and Preservation DO share a focus or have a similar focus. Explained later. Focus isn't important for balance magics, just Intents (ie positive/negative, Preservation and Endowment are both the 'positive' end of their complements). Balance magics are formed in a different way than we expect. For example, how did Feruchemy exactly come about? For the second point, it might be that the focus of Preservation isn't metal, etc. It might be instead something to do with its Intent, or its Effect (on the things it creates/touches/alters). For the third point, what I mean is that if the Intents are similar, or opposite, then a balance can be formed. Windrunner pointed this out in her original post by saying that some complementary pairs aren't opposites, they just work together. Maybe be similar for a Preservation/Endowment fusion. For the fourth point, balance magics might not be formed between complements, just between specific Shards, where it make sense. For example, in between Preservation, that which maintains, and Ruin, that which destroys, come a balance magic, Feruchemy, that destroys (storing) and then preserves (the store itself [ie coppermind]) and well as helping to maintain/destroy (the release) as the balanced output. In a way, as well, Endowment and Preservation could be seen as opposites, if not complements. It is difficult to Maintain something if you just Give it away, and equally difficult to Give it if it hasn't been Maintained. Hope it helped.

The epigraph is correct when it states that this sample is of particular note. It is a clear link to the truthspren and also actively corrects the theory that they are the bridge to Shadesmar. Surely if a dying chull-trainer can perceive the symbolspren, then any and all who wish to gain access may be appropriately allowed. Perhaps what allowed him to see them was that he was indeed prone to 'honesty' as opposed to having the potential to give a great 'truth'. This lead me to form this theory, and thanks to thoughts by Telcontar, so additional credit to him for this idea. Please help to correct me! Ok, so my perception of the symbolspren's Intent is as follows. Symbolspren are known to have been near people, according by one of three (mutual) things. The potential to hold great knowledge/ perform great feats The grasp of a tantamount secret Having followed the path of honesty This make me refer to the truthspren (symbolspren, a less common name)as almost scavengers of knowledge. They can perceive if one is in the line of business as to receive a secret, holds a secret and lies about it, or is prone to being honest with all information they handle. However, this is not what I feel symbolspren are attracted by. Telcontar said that the truthspren was attracted to the dying chull trainer in the epigraph. It is my belief that it is because he is dying that he was able to see the symbolspren, similarly to how they can perceive the samples that Taravangian takes from them, not because they revealed themselves to him, but because dying people momentarily have access to all three planes. This makes sense, because the chull trainer (the mundane job inferring that there is nothing special about him) was all at once able to see through the Physical, as everyone else can, in order to perceive the 'healer' that he mentions. He earns a glance at the Spiritual, in order to witness the symbolspren that was attracted to the 'healer'. And yet he gives a clear link to the Cognitive (Shadesmar) when he talks about a 'sun in a black sky', as we know Shadesmar to also have. This is my theory about the dying over: they see all three planes for a short time. Now onto the reason symbolspren are attracted. I believe it is through either being greatly Learned (primary attribute of Palah) or greatly Creative (primary attribute of Shash). This forms the initial bond, or interest. Now, Shallan does not appear to be 'bonded' to the spren, but, correct me if I'm wrong, she is because the one spren follows her around ever since the 'incident' with the vase and the blood. It is the only one she sees whenever she Sketches from that point onwards. Clearly, the moment the sympolspren because first attracted to her was during her work on the portrait of Taravangian, in which she describes intense bursts of creativity, saying it is her greater piece. And we see that Jasnah is sought out by the symbolspren by her Learned attribute. This alludes to Telcontar mentioning she learned Soulcasting out of a book, but either way, nobody can dispute that she is rightly Learned. Now I believe that the Nahel bond is strengthen by the secondary attribute, while the Nahel bond is activated by the primary. This is clear when we see Syl being attracted to Kaladin while he first protects Tien, and then his Squad in the Alethi Army, followed by Bridge Four. This maintains the bond. However, it is when he leads Bridge Four, when he is at the head of the bridge, or leading the charge, that he can give oaths/ strengthen his Nahel bond. However for Jasnah or Shallan, Transformation (and thus Shadesmar access) only becomes available when Jasnah Gives, or when Shallan tells the Truth. Now, in this instance, it reinforces the links between Order 5 and Order 6 as the Soulcasting Orders, because the act of Giving a Truth and Truly Giving seem synonymous with each other, and so Jasnah recognises the process Shallan uses to enter Shadesmar. However, Jasnah's may vary, as in she may be able to give items of note, were Shallan can give only truth. This is my theory. It sort of covers why all spren Feel free to comment, and please do respond and criticize. Odium's_Shard EDIT: Instead of the secondary attribute being necessary to activate the Surge, it now instead strengthens the Nahel Bond.

The epigraph is correct when it states that this sample is of particular note. It is a clear link to the truthspren and also actively corrects your (or someone else's, apologies for the mindlapse) theory that they are Guardians. Surely if a dying chull-trainer can perceive the symbolspren, then any and all who wish to gain access may be appropriately allowed. Perhaps what attracted them was that he was indeed prone to 'honesty' as opposed to having the potential to give a great 'truth'. This lead me to form this theory, and off the back of yours too, Telcontar. Please help to correct me! Ok, so my perception of the symbolsprens Intent is as follows. Symbolspren are known to have been near people, according by one of three (mutual) things. The potential to hold great knowledge/ perform great feats The grasp of a tantamount secret Having followed the path of honesty This make me refer to the truthspren (symbolspren, a less common name)as almost scavengers of knowledge. They can perceive if one is in the line of business as to receive a secret, holds a secret and lies about it, or is prone to being honest with all information they handle. However, this is not what I feel symbolspren are attracted by. Telcontar said that the spren (shorthand) were attracted to the dying chull trainer in the epigraph. It is my belief that it is because he is dying that he was able to see the symbolspren, similarly to how they can perceive the samples that Taravangian takes from them, because dying people momentarily have access to all three planes. This makes sense, because the chull trainer (the mundane job inferring that there is nothing special about him) was all at once able to see through the Physical, as everyone else can, in order to perceive the 'healer' that he mentions. He earns a glance at the Spiritual, in order to witness the symbolspren that was attracted to the 'healer'. And yet he gives a clear link to the Cognitive (Shadesmar) when he talks about a 'sun in a black sky', as we know Shadesmar to also have. This is my theory about the dying over. Now onto the reason symbolspren are attracted. I believe it is through either being greatly Learned (primary attribute of Palah) or greatly Creative (primary attribute of Shash). This forms the initial bond, or interest. Now, Shallan does not appear to be 'bonded' to the spren, but, correct me if I'm wrong, she is because the one spren follows her around ever since the 'incident' with the vase and the blood. It is the only one she sees whenever she Sketches from that point onwards. Clearly, the moment the sympolspren because first attracted to her was during her work on the portrait of Taravangian, in which she describes intense bursts of creativity, saying it is her greater piece. And we see that Jasnah is sought out by the symbolspren by her Learned attribute. This alludes to Telcontar mentioning she learned Soulcasting out of a book, but either way, nobody can dispute that she is rightly Learned. Now I believe that the Surge is activated by the secondary attribute, while the Nahel bond is activated by the primary. This is clear when we see Syl being attracted to Kaladin while he first protects Tien, and then his Squad in the Alethi Army, followed by Bridge Four. This maintains the bond. However, it is when he leads Bridge Four, when he is at the head of the bridge, or leading the charge, that his Surges activate. Similarly for Jasnah or Shallan. Transformation (and thus Shadesmar access) becomes available when the Give, or when Shallan tells the Truth. Now, in this instance, it reinforces the links between Order 5 and Order 6 as the Soulcasting Orders, because the act of Giving a Truth and Truly Giving seem synonymous with each other, and so Jasnah recognises the process Shallan uses to enter Shadesmar. However, Jasnah's may vary, as in she may be able to give items of note, were Shallan can give only truth. This is my theory. Feel free to comment, and please do respond and criticize. Odium's_Shard

They clearly just reversed the statement, instead of invalidating it. They (attempted to) give the men the ability to the defend themselves, dis-obligating them from their duty as KR, due to not being necessary to fulfill their ideals. Need to know the other ideals to back this up, so, yes, lyssie, we'll flesh it up later.

In my opinion, as a man of limited Physic value, what you just did was well beyond me and seemed pretty darned brilliant. Well done!

Just doesn't have an impact (immediately). I have to agree there should be a 'healing' surge, but just as Gold Feruchemy and Pewter Allomancy, it should have limiting factors, otherwisedly it would be far too overpowered.

Maybe they did. That would account for the lack of Shards according to Dalinar's estimate during his vision, and the general secrecy of the people in that Great Lake or whatever it's called. It could also explain the reason those people who were looking for Hoid were all the way over there for anyway. @lyssie95 Thanks for that catch! @Connerjade Yes it makes more sense if you dub it 'the lesser of two evils', but as a 'clever' decision it isn't all too great.

Removing the 'you' would mean that in English it wouldn't make sense for him to be speaking to Dalinar. If he said "It is Dalinar", it sounds as if he is speaking to the assembled Parshendi. This is just me being finicky, however, and I agree with your post in general. It would have been greater evidence that it was Gavilar if the Shardbearer would have said "It is you, Dalinar. I found you at last.".

I like this bit, I feel it very helpfully demonstrates why there aren't more than three magical systems, and also, in my opinion, makes me wonder whether it is going to be Endowment travelling to Roshar to save the day, as opposed just to Kaladin's awesomeness alone. It would be a path I could see Brandon pursuing, if not just for it to be unsuspected. However I cannot see how it would fit in without having a 'deus ex machina' feel, and I doubt Brandon would resort to that, well, ever.

This is quoted somewhere by Dalinar in-world. Have to look it up later. But if it was always released back to the Spirit Plane every time you released it, however do you give your Shards to other people, as Dalinar often says he wants to for Renalin.

On a side note, you mention a dying chull-trainer attracted Symbolspren? Who was that? Maybe just my wits fading with youth.

I think that your description of Life as 'unimportant' is absurd. I agree 100% with Aiken Frost in that Life is, well, the epicentre of usefulness for all those other things. Without Life, who would be here to give a damnation about Gravity? However, I do not think it is a Surge. I think that the things that Surges do should be helpful, in some way, to Life, after all, what would be their point other than to affect Life? If they didn't, nobody would bother with them. However, Life itself as a Surge would do the job of every other Surge, by its very definition, and so the others would have no point in existence. Pressure, Life would control. We need Pressure to be able to breath. Etc. Life would just be to powerful a Surge, and would make others redundant. And Brandon never over-powers his magic systems. They have to be balanced. Otherwise, Odium would always win, save a deus ex machina. And that is the bane of ALL plotlines, and Brandon would never resort to such a horrific thing as a DEM. Never.

I really like it except for this point. Guardians of Shadesmar? That wouldn't make any sense. I'm sure that they (the Symbolspren) revealed that they can make themselves visible if they choose to. So, Jasnah not recognising them brings serious issues to your belief that they are the Guardians, as then everyone accessing Shadesmar would need to be able to see them/ speak to them. In my opinion, though I have no evidence, the truthspren (symbolspren) are attracted to secrets. Not truths, Shallan doesn't tell many of those, but hidden truth. Truth they can dredge out in exchange for power. This is what attracts them, as they, I don't know, have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. And at the point Shallan first sees them, we have a convergence of two dark secrets. Murder of Father vs. Murderer of Majority of Political Structure of Two Entire Countries using a Rogue Shardbearer. Pretty attractive. However I disagree when you say it was their curiosity to find one who could see them that caused them to wish to bond with her. I think its that they recognize potential to use of their power. Tarangvian (whatever his name is) might not have the power/inclination to use Shadesmar, thus not ever going to give knowledge. I feel this better explains their first query of 'What are you?' as in 'Are you going to be of use?'. This is the first time one of them proffers their power, in exchange for the most fundamental aspect of her of all: identity. My two-cents.