alder24

Living things can't be Awakened. Sure you can modify memories and do those sorts of Awakenings but not type 2 or 3 (and definitely not 4). Possible. It's not the Identity of the dead person and not the identity of the Awakener - it has to do something with the body (being invested in the moment of the death like Arsteel was?) rather than a given Breath, but if the Breath used to belong to the dead person it can help: So as presented above, it's possible to create a Lifeless whose Breath will have the same identity that the dead person had, but this is hard. The original Breath which belonged to that person helps, being invested in the moment of the death helps too, but you need to somehow have "something more of the dead person left in the body" too - which is as vague as possible and I can't really think of any proper realmatic mechanic that would make it work. Maybe Awakening a very fresh corpse would help as well? Or maybe a very special Lifeless Command or precise Intent during Awakening would help too? I don't really know but that's a crucial part of it. But normally Breath doesn't align itself to the original spirit web, because it's gone. It makes something new, maybe partially aligned but not fully, thus identity is not the same.

Yes, finally a place where we can all cry together while waiting for the Doors of Stone. Oh god it has been 13 years now...

Perception has everything to do with it - as always in Cosmere. A ship isn't viewed as a sum of plants, ropes and sails - all of this is a ship. Just like your body is one thing and no body part of yours has a separate soul. An object can "merge" with a bigger object - a carpet in a room will eventually be perceived as a part of a room if it will stay there long enough. The same applies here - a wire attached to a weapon would be still perceived as a separate thing and it would take a loooong time for those things to be eventually perceived as one. That's not remotely the same thing. The earring spike/metalmind is invested and it is touching your blood and soul. Perception can't get rid of that. In this case you have a wire which touches your soul and can't be pushed and a weapon that doesn't touch your soul and can be pushed, but they are welded together - perception matters here a lot because those are two separate objects uncommonly stuck together. They have separate souls. It's possible for them to be "merged" as one but that would take too long to be practical in any way and that would require a constant interaction with people who do see them as one, which would be unlikely because of how unnatural those things are.

The question was about one spren bonding multiple knights. Oh boy. This is still a form of healing. It will depend on how they both see each other, but most importantly how the soon-to-be-Returned sees their body. However a Divine Breath is a piece of divinity, it brings you closer to the ideal image of a person, thus the healing might be so strong that it will grant them separate bodies no matter their perception - I find this unlikely because of how influential perception is and even a Divine Breath healing can't ignore that. It's also possible that Endowment just creates a separate body in this case. Add in Ulaam's experience of eating a two-headed reptile and discovering he couldn't split his mind or think faster. For this one, it's weird because the Spiritweb of the dead twin is absent and is then replaced with a surrogate Spiritweb from the living twin. The Surrogate Spiritweb and the original Spiritweb would be touching at the bifurcation and you should have an entire body with the same DNA matching with the sDNA of the soul(s) occupying the whole body. Would they gain conscious control over the Lifeless half without need for spoken Command? Would they be able to sense as a Lifeless senses? I'm not worried about the sustainability of a half Lifeless body just yet, I'm wondering about at least the first few hours for the twin. I see a problem with this - it all depends on how their bodies are connected together. They can share a blood circulation - I mean one heart can carry blood everywhere - thus the body won't be considered dead, so you might not be able to make a Lifeless at all. I think for this to work the dead twin's body has to be truly dead and decaying - and that would kill the other twin really fast. I don't think the living twin would get control over the Lifeless part because identity is different - Lifeless have different identities when they're created, they would remain separate entities. But adding proper healing to the mix and I have no idea what might happen - it's likely you would bring the dead twin back because while his spirit web is really gone, the body has a spirit web of its own and "remembers" - and that might created some kind of weirdness and bring an imprint of that person back. But those ideas are so weird that anything can happen.

I think that would depend on what the tone of Harmonium is. If it's one tone of Harmony then no, if it's two tones of Ruin and Preservation separate then maybe, if they are already merged into one tone then probably not - they are already merged into Harmonious tone.

I don't think it was asked. BAM certainly bonded multiple people at once but she was unique, even Radiants were surprised. Possible, depending on which body parts they share and their self-perception about what is "their" body. If they both consider the entirety of the body as theirs, that might work. They WON'T share a spirit web. Every person has a separate spirit web. So the one who mentally initiates burning of Lerasium will get the power.

What's your intent? Do you want to charge it again? Do you want to grant powers to person b or c? To both? What's your intent? Per previous WoB you can't reuse it to steal powers from someone else. But you can take a spike from someone and give it to someone else - inquisitors were doing that. But if you stab 2 people at once and leave the spike while it's through both of them intent will matter. You can't grant powers to both of them simultaneously, so if you want that then either the spike won't work at all, or it will work to only one person. If you want to give powers only to one of them and the spike is in the correct binding point, it should work for that person and that person only. If you miss the binding point it won't work. The fact that it pierces the second person should not matter if the right intent was used when Hemalurgy was performed, but it would be very painful, possibly deadly to fix that and place the spike more comfortably. Your intent will determine the outcome of this action. That's my opinion.

Did you even look at the WoBs I've provided 2 posts ago? The most recent one, from Dragonsteel 2023 clearly said that Nightblood has an upper limit of how much investiture he can hold, thus if you have any doubts, the most recent WoB takes priority: This is fully consistent with other WoBs and the events of RoW, ch 113: Aluminum would make a terrible armor. This metal isn't fit for any kind of defense. The chances of meeting a Shardbearer on the battlefield is small - there are only 80 known Shardblades on Roshar, 40 of them belong to Alethkar and Jah Keved. The aluminum armor would be shredded to pieces by every foot soldier. It's a really bad idea. Aluminum Soulcasters are very rare, per Dawnshard ch 7. Why? Silverlight was founded ages ago by dragons and settled by worldhoppers. There is no reason to believe that worldhopping is a recent thing. Humanity spread from Yolen by worldhopping before Adonalsium was even Shattered. And there is Ire, a very, very old worldhopping organization, settled in Shadesmar. Worldhopping is very old and is not limited to selected few as even places without stable perpendicularities have worldhoppers (Threnody). The common knowledge of aluminum and existence of aluminum Soulcasters indicate its usage in the past. No, they've mined it, BoM ch 3: So, frankly, he never needed to have access to a Shardblade, living, dead, or otherwise. Much less an Honorblade. Heck, simply visiting Shinovar and getting them to tell him stories about the Blades would likely have been enough to put the idea in his head about making one. Or hearing legends about them from an Ardent, or something along those lines would work just as well. True. Firstly aluminum was known and used since 5th century BCE, at least as a compound. It was used extensively in the fabric industry. Secondly they are scholars, they don't need to know everything about aluminum, they just need to try to Awaken it - and they can do this even without the 9th Heightening with just the inactive Command "My Breath to yours" - they would have discovered that way that aluminum can't be Awakened, and because they know that BioChorma (a term picked up from an industrial world) is investiture, they would know it interacts in a similar way with investiture in general and they could try to do more tests. Some worldhoppers can be aware of the properties of aluminum, like Hoid, and they could slowly gain the real image of this metal. It's not hard to imagine that they would quickly figure out its value. Spren knew, not every spren died during Recreance, they knew, they could tell the story. Radiants knew they could tell the story. The fact that aluminum is traded in Horneaters peak means that in CS they know the value of it really well. I think you severely overestimate how unknown aluminum is, especially among scholarly or worldhopping communities. I really see no problem here. Even Scadrial pre Rashek Ascension was industrialized. We know, I've put on the first post on this second page: Because he constantly leaks investiture making space for more. That's how. When he reaches the limit he can't consume more investiture. He isn't fully full, he is just really close to being full. It's really simple. Incorrect. The one with 100 mil Breaths would last longer, but not proportionally. However Nightblood can't hold that much investiture, confirmed by this WoB: No. How would that even work? He was already Awakened, he was already made. We know Nightblood leaks consumed and corrupted Breaths - the one he fed on when he was used. That's what is leaking. We know he was created with 1000 Breaths and that makes his soul. We know he grew in power. Thus the simplest explanation is that Nightblood was created, he didn't leak any smoke until he was used for the first time, then he started to leak, then he was used to kill Shashara and was renamed Nightblood. Over time he became as invested as we see him in books, but he wasn't like that when he was created. Now he is supersaturated, he is very close to being fully full, when he reaches that point he falls into a coma, but because he leaks investiture he gets away from that and makes space for new investiture to stuff inside of him. I'm quite sure there was a WoB stating that Nightblood acts like a Returned and their Divine Breath, not just stuffing investiture into the sword but using it up and consuming it to maintain his Command - just like Divine Breath uses up a Breath every week, Nightblood also does that when drawn. Thus not every investiture he feeds on remains in the blade, some is used up, some is leaked. But I can't find this WoB. Impossible, because Nightblood fed directly on Rayse, not Taravangian. He was filled by Rayse, not Taravangian. The fact that Taravangian quickly stabbed Rayse saved him from getting consumed by Nightblood. Nightblood consumes not only investiture of its wielder but also some of investiture he strikes, and he can be fed only by one source - the people he kills - because of Rayse's example. So if Nightblood is constantly used to kill, you reduce the number of Breaths he will drain from you. If Nightblood was using Taravangian's investiture he would have consumed all of him.

It would be weird. They should have separate spirit webs so certain things would be reserved only to one twin. But if one is a Radiant then he can heal the entire body, but the perception of the second non-Radiant twin will also matter and they can cancel out healing. If one were to burn Lerasium then only that twin would be a Mistborn and only they would be able to control their power and burning metals. Spikes would be messy because binding points are all messed up on their body and it would really depend on the intent during spiking and on the placement - if a spike is placed on the shared body part I suspect the intent would have to be super precise and choose the correct spirit web, if on the not-shared part then you probably can't place a spike there that would affect the other twin. Their view of themselves and their body would matter a lot - if their view their entire body and the second twin as themselves, actions like burning pewter or tapping pewter might affect the entire body - but that really depends how their spirit webs are attached. This is the only WoB about this topic and it involves healing:

Depending on your intent. Inquisitors were doing that, they were placing a donor on top of the recipient and pushing a spike through both of them with the intent to steal from the first one and place it into the second one. But you can't really reuse spikes - you can't really steal from multiple people (well you can per TLM but it's problematic), mainly because identities of stolen parts will collide with each other. You can't grant two persons the same spike because it can be only inserted into one spirit web. If you ask about using a spike on Siamese twins then I have no idea how it would work. They should have separate spirit webs, their perception of themselves might affect Hemalurgy a lot, but their spirit webs should "overlap" over their whole body, maybe excluding visibly separate parts like heads (depending on how conjoined they're). And the intent of the Hemalurgist would be very important - if he wants to steal from a twin A, not from a twin B, and they have only separate heads, they I think he would be successful in stealing only from a twin A. But if their hearts are also separate they the Hemalurgist also needs to choose the correct heart. It's interesting but we have no information from Brandon. The only WoB about Siamese twins is this one:

Oh no, please edit your response out of the quote box, because expanding a spoiler box inside a quote box breaks the boxes and it can't be read, screenshot attached: Edit: I've managed to read your post, here is my response, SotD spoilers:

It does not. It's about the rate of consumption - because there is no such thing as “the rate of holding” investiture. There are several WoBs talking about Nightblood getting full and not being able to hold that much investiture. He clearly has an upper limit. It's all about how fast he consumes something - it's theoretically possible to feed Nightblood slowly enough that he would leak fast enough to make all investiture in Cosmere to pass through him - but he can't hold that much investiture and that's a fact. That would mean when Nightblood would get physically full, he would push all newly consumed investiture directly to SR, thus he wouldn't hold that investiture anymore. But this is incorrect because he can get full and fall into a coma. Some timeline for you if you don't know: Warbreaker is happening only a few generations before WoK, so let's say around 100 years, the Five Scholars were active around 300 years before Warbreaker, that gives us 400 years before WoK - long, loooong after Recreance. Shallan's necklace was made out of aluminum. Aluminum can be Soulcasted into, people like Navani and Rushu knew about Aluminum. Common moneylenders know what aluminum is and how expensive it is. Sure not many people own it, but many know about it. WoR ch 48: And if they said in WoR that aluminum can be made by Soulcasting, that means there are Soulcasters which can make aluminum - all of that post Recreance when Vasher visited Roshar. Moreover Horneaters not only know about it but also obtain it via trade with Shadesmar: Dawnshard ch 7: And if Lopen knows about aluminum, how it's made and how rare it is - this is not a secret, the Five Scholars would easily get aluminum just on Roshar if they wanted. No, I was not, but they function similarly - protect you from getting cut by a Shardblade. You literally said it yourself. No. Fused were using aluminum thousands of years before them to stop Shardblades - how have they figured this out? The Five Scholars are pioneers of Awakening for sure. And they have visited industrial worlds and that's how they've picked up scientific terminology - they weren't the very first: It's possible that aluminum can be found on Roshar from other sources than Soulcasting, like mining: And there is no indication that aluminum isn't known on Nalthis. It just wasn't mentioned in the book. And if Vasher&co had access to Honorblades then why not to aluminum, which is far more common on Roshar than 9 Honorblades? So how did Navani get it for her fabrials? How did Shallan get her necklace? How did inquisitors or Vin get it? How did Shai know about it? How did the Rose Empire get aluminum to make cells out of it? Yes, it generally isn't common but it's there, people know about it, people use it all across Cosmere. And if Vasher was able to see one of the rarest objects in Cosmere - Honorblades - then how is knowing and getting aluminum any harder than that - they could have just bought it in Shadesmar from merchants in Horneaters Peaks, through which they entered Roshar.

Agreed, only investiture that leaks is recycled. This is EXTREMELY important. He grew over time - past tense. He isn't growing, he grew. It is important. No - WoB said "There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated." Steel can't hold that much. Nightblood is so invested now that he can be considered a god metal now, and because Vivenne's blade also looks like a god metal without acting like Nightblood, I imply this happened to him during the moment of his creation and isn't simply the effect of feeding on investiture (what I mean he really turned black when he was created - he turned into a pseudo god metal). Nightblood isn't a normal steel sword anymore, he is a kind of Schrodinger's cat - both being made out of steel and god metal at the same time. He bends and breaks the rules. He can be stuffed far more than a normal steel object of comparable dimensions because of that and because of how he works by sucking in all of investiture he touches (this is special, because of how badly his Awakening went, he consumes investiture and stuffs it all inside of him to his limits) . And Nightblood is less invested than the Stormfather: He also isn't THE most invested individual so there are other entities that are still more invested than him - probably Dawnshards, Avatars etc: He was sheathed in those periods, he didn't leak much during those times. A slight leakage was still there because Nightblood isn't 100% covered by aluminum, it likely leaks through his handle but in a much more subtle and slower way. Tell that to Preservation and Ruin. It has to because Nightblood can get full and later still can be drawn and fed on investiture. He has to drop in investiture levels to "make space" for new food. So yes, leakage has an effect on him but I don't suggest that he leaks a considerable amount of his investiture. He stays near the very top of what he can hold. If you were to leave him unsheathed for months or years then maybe there will be a noticeable difference. Yes but that's as of right now. He wasn't invested to such levels earlier, after his creation, he grew as he was used. But now the differences between moments when he is invested the most or the lowest are minimal compared to the amount of investiture he is holding. He has to lose some investiture because he can get full, he falls into a coma and in that moment he doesn't consume investiture anymore. Because he reaches maximum he has to drop in investiture levels to allow new investiture to be consumed by him. He can't be invested anymore, he can't go up anymore, he's reached the maximum and now he is oscillating near it constantly. What he loses through leakage is quickly replenished when he is drawn and in certain moments he reaches the very maximum he can hold (like when he killed Rayse). When this happens he can be even "safely" used for a few short seconds. I think the more investiture Nightblood holds the more he leaks because this investiture is more pressurized thus when a valve is opened (unsheathed) the pressure pushes investiture out faster compared to when he was far less invested. But right now Nightblood is almost at the very top of what he can hold so he basically leaks at the same speed now - what he loses is quickly regained when he is used, so on average he doesn't get less invested, but he doesn't go more invested as well - he has reached an equilibrium. What if the sheath wasn't meant to stop him from leaking but simply stop him from cutting and killing everything he touches? They knew how Shardblades work, they knew about Shardblades sheaths, they knew Shardblades can be dissmissed, Nightblood can't - you have to have a way to carry it around safely otherwise you will cut yourself to death or let it drain you entirely when you hold it. That's the simplest explanation. Plus Shashara might have known that when Nightblood is out in the open his Command will take over, so sheathing him in aluminum will allow his personality to shine. As per WoBs above there is a limit of how much he can really hold. You can pressurize the water in the bucket and it will need less space - I think that's what Nightblood is doing, that's why he is supersaturated - but there are still limits to that. Very known reasons - he used it and Nightblood fed on him. Everyone who used it and survived are immune to his effects: But this doesn't seem to reduce the amount of investiture he consumes. The rate of consumption when he is drawn out grows exponentially. The longer he's out, the more he eats. ch 57: Khriss predates them - White Sand is the earliest in the Cosmere timeline and she already is doing scholarly work there. And she founded only one of many universities in Silverlight. Not to mention Dragons who also have scholarly tendencies and they have found Silverlight. Aluminum was present on Roshar, was known on Roshar, especially in ancient times. We don't know if it is unknown on Nalthis, just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it isn't there, it can be just rare. It would be probably even more known in Shadesmar - I see no problems here. No. One of the WoBs I've posted here states that Nightblood has an upper limit, he can get full and fall into a coma in which he doesn't consume anymore. He doesn't grow in his capabilities of storing more investiture because investiture is another state of matter, just like energy - if that were to happen he would literally either grow in size or turn into a real black hole. None of this is happening. The WoB doesn't imply that at all. Theoretically as long as you're consumption rate is smaller or equal to his leakage rate you can make him feed on infinite amount of investiture - but this isn't possible anyway because Nightblood consumption rate grows faster the more he is used. He can't consume infinite amount of investiture, he will get full eventually and then stop eating.

Have you read Six of the Dusk novella and its unpublished prequel chapter (SotD2)? SotD spoilers:

Interesting. What if it actually collects Ambition's investiture to restore the Shard? Threnodites are there and just like we saw in TLM, where a large concentration of Metalborn spawned a perpendicularity, here a large concentration of Threnodites might help attract even more of Ambition's investiture. Of course they can't be the vital point of this machine because it existed and worked before they arrived, but they might have arrived there because of their Connection to Ambition. It doesn't need to be a battery. It can be a weapon to splinter Shards, a tool to merge Shards, a tool to attract investiture of every Shard to find out if it's possible to recreate Adonalsium on a small scale, or just an attempt to make a black hole out of pure investiture. Truthfully it can be anything.

We don't know how much Breaths Shashara had when she was killed, she had at least 20000 Breaths when creating Nightblood, but considering she was killed after the Battle of the Twilight Falls, she might have spent most of her Breaths during the fight to feed Nightblood, to Awaken or to create an army of Lifeless before the battle. She probably didn't have that much Breaths when killed. We don't have any numbers on how much investiture Nightblood can hold. But why does Nightblood leak investiture? Well, why do humans leak investiture, like Stormlight, or even Breaths that deteriorate with age? Humans simply aren't a perfect vessel for investiture. A steel sword likely isn't a perfect vessel as well, thus he leaks investiture - after all hemalurgic spikes leak investiture as well. The speed of leakage is probably limited by the surface area of the blade.

I should have been more precise. To this idea: Sazed sees Elend from far away. Sazed is in the Venture's Keep, while Elend just entered the city, not the Keep, Elend was walking among the streets of Luthadel. Sazed had to use binocular vision to recognize Elend because he was simply too far away. They didn't enter the Keep, they went directly to Kredik Shaw. But yes, it was already night and he would not only have to zoom to see but also enhance vision to see in darkness. The candle grew weaker, which means less light, which means Sazed tapped Tinmind to see more in the growing darkness. Binocular vision wouldn't help him, it would distract him during the fight. While all of this isn't as direct and definitive as we would wish for, in my opinion it implies that tapping sight just does both of those things for whatever reason.

The counterargument is quite simple - they were all experts at using F-copper, there is no way that none of them ever tried to store multiple senses in one Tinmind to check if they even can do that with no drawbacks. Because of that it's highly likely there are some complications or practical reasons for not using one Tinmind to store all senses - or like the Ars Arcanum said, each sense have to be stored in a separate Tinmind. They are not stored separately. Sazed used the same sight Tinmind to both see Elend from a distance and see in the darkness better. WoA ch 57&58: Either it's intent or it works by "magically" making eyes more sensitive to photons they detect and binocular vision is more like a side effect. It's most likely just a vague and broad sight enhancement, but a skilled Windwhisperer could probably be far more precise in what "part" of his sight to store and that would require separate Tinminds.

I think it's possible but not practical. In a Coppermind you tap and you get the memory you want back - it's a momentary tap and you give all of your memories into the metalmind and get all of them back when you tap. Copperminds work differently. In other metalminds you tap and you have a constant flow of attributes into you. So if you were to store multiple senses in one tinmind I think it would be really hard to separate them when tapping, thus you would get multiple senses at once, or it would be switching from one to another - depending if you stored them separately or together. Basically you wouldn't be able to control which sense you get, which is not practical. However, I'm checking Coppermind and AoL Ars Arcanum now and it says: For whatever reason you need separate tinminds. If you want to make an Allomantically resistant metalmind, you can just store all your senses in separate metalminds and when they're filled, just melt them together. Tin has a very low melting point (232 °C), you can do that in your home. If you want to make metalminds unpushable just use piercings, otherwise normal metalminds can still be pushed and we've seen this happening a lot. Tin is not suited for making weapons too because it's soft and pliable. Still this idea can have some applications.

Again, another 3 years old topic. Please check the date of the last responds to avoid necroposting.

This is a 3 years old topic, please do not necropost.

Jezrien is 100% confirmed to be dead. This also makes sense if you consider how other CS works - they require a strong bond to a Shard to feed on, otherwise they will feed on investiture or even themselves if no other source is available (like Returned do). RoW epigraphs ch 79, 91-93: RoW ch 15: Confirmed by the Stormfather, RoW ch 47: Confirmed by Ash: RoW ch 111: And those WoBs: That would probably kill him anyway. 9 is the number of Odium. There are 9 types of Fused with the Nine leading them, 9 Unmade, they believe in 9 True Surges, the Everstorm comes every 9th day and stuff like this. 10 is the number of Honor.

I think that because Radiants were formalized by Ishar, no other spren than a True Spren of 10 kinds can form a Radiant Bond. A corrupted True Spren is the closest we have to this and that's only because they were a True Spren thus they are bound into Radiant Bond. But others can still form a Nahel Bond, strong enough to grant Surges (even different pairs of Surges), just like True Spren were doing before Radiant Orders were established. Even Lesser Spren can theoretically bond with humans. Humans don't have a gemheart, that's why, and they are a weak vessel for emotions (per Odium's words, OB ch 57). It took decades of preparations and the presence of one of the Unmade that rioted people's emotions to allow Voidspren to bond with humans. I think this example during the Battle of Thaylen Field, combined with the WoB about Voidbinding usually originating with Unmades, might be a form of Voidbinding, or be very close to it.

Shashara didn't see Living Shardblades, she didn't see spren turning into Radiant blades nor sentient swords, she visited Roshar long after Recreance and all Radiant spren were already dead or bondless. She did see Honorblades, which are self-aware. I would say that Intent and Visualization are very intertwined together. A Command isn't just Intent, it's a focus for an intent, but you have to still nail both of them correctly to make the Awakening work - you have to know what you mean by words, you have to visualize them - that's intent. But the difference between those three is thin, they all have to work together to make it work. That's why I don't think just visualizing and intending sentience when saying "destroy evil" is enough, but it is very possible to be enough. For me it just makes sense that an additional step is required to actually make sentience first and we’ve already seen this with Lifeless.

Things that are kinetic in nature - yes, but not Awakening or transferring a Divine Breath onto someone else. You can steal it with a Hemalurgic spike and that's as close as you can get to giving it to someone. I see your point - it's possible that new things will come into light and something more like Awakening will be possible with a Divine Breath, but right now, as it is currently understood by us based on all information available, a Divine Breath simply can't be used to Awaken - you would need to do something with it, just like with metalminds to make them usable by other (unkeyed metalminds), so there would be additional steps missing. If you could stop a Divine Breath from becoming kinetic then you might be able to Awaken - but how to do that? This one? mixed with this: Which doesn't at all contradict my theory. It's what is happening every time something is Awakened, including Lifeless - Breaths do their best to interpret their Command, what it means to "catch things" or "fetch keys" for example. Even in Lifeless the better the Awakener is at visualization the better the Lifeless is at following its Commands, which means Breaths are still interpreting Commands given to them, not just brain. It can be a two step process to Awaken a type 4 entity.