alder24

No, even Diagram knew it was inevitable It's purpose was to establish Taravangian as a ruler/representative of Roshar so he could made deal with Odium saving parts of it - at least in Taravangian's mind, Diagram real goal was to guide him into ascension. The Diagram also mention how to find and destroy Radients, probably seeing them as opposition to Taravangian's efforts to unite Roshar. Naming them as a danger. That's why I thing that quote below refers to Radients, as coming of Desolation is nesesery for Taravangian's plans, Radients appearing among Parshendi would prevent Everstorm from coming - which ironically he needs to become "king of everything" and save them. The "missing piece" could probably refer to the Willshapers, as they were nowhere to be found among humans.

Yup, these cursed by Storms pointy hats! I'm with Adolin on this one, holy war is nesesery! "We march on Taravangian" - if only this happens in OB, naaah joking "The gate-beings who'd been hersing threats at her. Here was a blighted planet, but a lot of the planet was gray as well. The way the air hung in the islands and in the hills, dark and dull. This was the kind of thing Eshonai had come to hate." - surprisingly this all fits Eshonai well, I will even suggest that Eshonai planet explorer is much better. This bot getting better and better. The story is more coherent but still cut mid-sentence. I guess it's its writing style. The Bot deserve Aether for this one.

Not to Rlain, but i think it's about Eshonai, she is the only one that matters cause she begins to bond spren before taking Stormform. If she did become a Radient, Listeners would turn away from Venli and Odium and embrace Honor's way, preventing Everstorm from coming that time. "Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge." Destroying Parshendi did form a bridge for Odium.

He's insane, sometimes there just isn't any reason for madman actions. However in this case it's much simpler - if he truly believed that Radiants return could cause Desolation, then rediscovering and settling down their abandoned and ancient city could quicken that as well. That's just bad idea when you try prevent Desolation in your wicked way. And why would Nale even open gates for him?

There would be definitely very few Radients of 5th and 4th Ideal, we can take Skybreakers as an example, few lucky one were able to swear 4th Ideal and none 5th since ages, except for Nale. But with 3rd Ideal that's different - it's the point when they become full Radient in most Orders. Majority of Windrunners bonded with Sprens in RoW are already at that Ideal. So assuming that 50% of all Radients during Recreance was at 3rd Ideal is not that big of a stretch - that's 1000 of Honorsprens alone. It is possible that lots of Shardblades were lost in storms, but to make them responsible for missing hundreds or thousands of Shardblades is in my opinion too much. As proven time and time again in books it, the knowledge of next Highstorm is common even among the poorest one. Moreover there are shelters natural or man-made placed densely, in every village, in every town, near them and on paths all across country. Even if a Shardbearer was to catch by sudden Highstorm, he could easily made himself a hole with Shardblade - like Kaladin in OB did, Shallan in WoR, or like one that scouts on Shattered Plains were using. Even desperate Eshonai attempt after battle of Narak would be much easier to survive in other places as it would eliminate risk of drowning - just hide behind heavy rock or hill for protection against debries and you could survive. Moreover as Laral said in OB it's not to difficult to put your spheres outside when wind appears, so it's possibly not that difficult to predict incoming Highstorm and find place to hide. As Roshar was tormented by Highstorms even before shattering of Adonalsium (i think so?), these methods used today, would be also commonly used 1500 years before as they don't require technological advancement at all - just a little bit of thinking. So it's hard for me to imagine that majority of the Shardblades were lost in the storms. And than how much cream accumulate on the ground? I don't remember that books describe it often. Cream on the buildings was mention multiple times, but ground was described as solid rock with cracks, stones and plants on it - the only description of cream accumulating on ground was on Shattered Plains in context of buildings as ground level was on the level of second floor of the buildings (Adolin's POV, Battle of Narak). Let's remember that Shattered Plains were shattered befere Last Desolation, so more than 4500 years - assuming that the height of the floor is 3 meters, it gives you roughly 0.67 mm of cream a year, starting from Last Desolation! Crazy low value of yearly accumulation of cream, definitely not enough to indistinguishably cover laying Shardblade not to mention one sticked into the ground. And that's after a year! Let's go even further - assuming that every week (5 days) Highstorm appears, that's gives us 100 Hightstorms a year (year has 500 days) and 0.0067 mm of cream each Highstorm. To comparison, width of the hair is 0.06 - 0.1 mm so you would need 9 Hightstorm for cream to be as thick as the thinnest hair. Good luck covering something with that. The only way for Shardblade to went missing in the storm is to be carried by winds in it, but the farther east the winds weaken, blade would eventually struck the ground - depending on the angle it could be buried deep in the rock, as seen in OB, but it is as likely to strike the ground with its the handle, flat side or blunt edge such as with its tip or sharp edge. I'm also thinking is it relevant to the story? Will finding all those missing Shardblades change anything? It's easy to predict that BAM will be released and that will fixed everything, Deadeyes become alive again etc. Well I think that is just boring! Can BAM reestablish its connection to everything and Roshar just like that, fixing it with ease? The Sprens spiritual web was cracked due to her imprisonment similar to how Radient's web is damage which allows Sprens to form Nahel Bond. It would be much more interesting if the damage was irreversible and to fix Deadeyes reverse Nahel Bond must be made - something like Adolin is doing - that creates so many new possibilities. But that's just my speculation, or rather hopes.

I don't think that's true, Fused still needed to travel from Braize to Everstorm for the first time, and there was Taln preventing any movement from Braize. But, as it was stated multiple times, connection/bridge created by Everstorm might be enough to bypass Taln, as voidsprens were present on Roshar before Taln returned.

I'm confused about it. I would like to be it more as a relationship focused on scheming and plotting, exchanging knowledge and being on equal intellectual level without romantic interest on both side - but then maybe developed with their interactions. But this is all skipped and it's just weird for me to be suddenly as romantic serious relationship. They could make it work, as I don't look that much on age gap, and Jasnah could become ageless as there are many and options for it, one commonly used across cosmere. They goals are aligned, but methods definitely different, so there is a potential for conflict but also for development. But without that beginning it's just confusing for me. And to add up, it's taking a lot form mysterious side of Hoid, humanising him a bit too much a bit too early.

Most powerful? Shards - do they count? But seriously Hemalurgy is probably the strongest one - with it you can become user of every other magic system, and the only thing you need is simple knowledge how to do it.

Wait, where is the rest of it? Did Bot learned when to apply cliffhanger to boost sales? It ended in the most intense moment, I need to know what happened next! Did Kaladin saved her as always? Did Jasnah balcony survived? What happened with all those Sprens? I love Radient description, and Jasnah "not the stone, but a woman!". Dalinar is exactly like Dalinar should be 10/10 and even have ShardWalkingStick or is it The Stick™ Shallan's nemesis? And are the archers fighting the wind, the storm, the Windstormsprens or what? And then this piece of Raysium came "The dead girl's spine showed at the bottom of the pile of debris, her face a bloody smear." - so dark, so brutal, so good, Ati would be proud! Can't wait for Edgedancer and Oathbringer, and you know, Words of Radiance part 2

Yes, I think I wrote about that Ishar and Stormfather connection shenanigans as the SF sees the world mostly through the Hightstorm - I'm well aware how weak this argument is but it was never my main point. Don't get me wrong, I've noticed that SF in Prologue is a little different, something is not fitting, I like Ishar the Stormfaker theory, which is greatly argumented and well-written. But some points just don't seem right. For me it's choosing between ignoring already well-established fact in Prelude that Heralds can't feel each other regular death or that SF somehow can feel it as we quite literally have no information about it from books - which leaves open doors for speculations. This one singular argument was always the theory breaking point for me. But I will gladly be wrong, just need some more definite "prove" (not full confirmation). Right now it's just much more believable in my opinion that it's The Stormfather the whole time, who is lying a little bit or just fully manipulating Gavilar, both are twists on their own. And It's just fun to speculate and discuss it That's a very good explanation. Makes a lot of sense. I was wondering if when cognitive shadows like Heralds are dieing, are their souls remaining the same, or are their souls infused with investiture and copied into new soul, when old goes Beyond. Most likely the fist one, but I don't think we fully know what is exactly happening to Heralds and Fused souls when they are dieing except for being damaged.

It's definitely goes both ways, it's the same argument over and over again. Your points are that because Ash felt Jez perma death, Ishi also could have felt Chana regular death. My is because perma death and regular death are completely different things, and we have proof on page of herald not reacting and not knowing about regular death of other heralds, therefore Ishar could not have felt it. And what goes both ways is speculations if SF could have felt it - which we are lacking proof because there is no such scene in books. Lack of proof is not a proof at all, we can either speculate it have happened or nor and both of arguments in this case are equally weak. Moreover perma death is much more different than regular death, as perma death quite literally severs all connections between Jezrien and Heralds and torn him out from Oathpact in brutal way - as we see it during Dalinar and Nale fight. Perma death is more similar to trapping BAM in a gem - which completely separated all her connections. Regular death on the other case do not damage any connections, nothing is torn out, nothing is removed, or severed. It's reasonable to see why one would be felt and other not. And once again, we know SF can see Ishar, know where he is and who is he - there is some connection between at least two of them. It's not that big of a stretch to claim he could have felt death of Chana - it is a big speculation but not completely without proofs. Connection is there. And yes, Ishar could establish some kind of connection to future of someone to see future - which is weird, unlikely but still possible as we do not know much about this kind of interaction. @mdross81 good catch. I highly doubt that frost would appear with SF as he is more omnipresent. Yet in case of feeling herald death, both Ishar and SF could reach into spiritual realm and manifest frost - more likely for Ishar to do it. But I also remember that just using surges and Stromlight makes frost appeared - I think in Szeth prologue it was said when he inhale Stormlight, probably when Kaladin was using big amounts of lashings etc - can't remember when but remember it appears when Stormlight is used. Which could indicates that frosting is much common.

That goes both ways - we've never seen herald react to temporary death of another herald, especially in prologue that provides us lots of information about this. Not even later did any herald mention that few years before they had felt herald dieing - not Nale, not Kalak, not Ash or others - which by your logic it would be improtant piece of knowledge to share. Lack of information is not giving us anything, it's open door for speculations which works both ways. From storytelling purposes there was no need to show SF reaction to that, as it was shown though better eyes. We can't assume that there was no reaction or there was one. And from continuity reason mentioning SF reaction to it year later is just weird - "hey remember your reaction to Yez death year before? What was that?" - just doesn't fit at all. Moreover it was already established that SF can feel Ishar's location, so there is a connection at least between them. Yes, Ishar is known as Herald of Luck, Kalak and Jezrien are known as Stormfather - which doesn't prove anything. Ishar could somehow reach to fortune to see future but that just leaves us with too many questions. Or as I explained earlier - assuming he is Stormfaker he could have felt Jezrien's blade, as Kalak mention it in Jasnah Prologue. Nale knew it in Venli chapter - somehow. It's easier to assume that they can feel proximity of Honorblades due to existing connection rather than Ishar can use Fortune with unknown abilities, and knowing that anything in Honor's surges is against futuresight.

Lying Stormfather would change a lot, and it would set up conflict between him and Dalinar, potentially fulfilling some of the Death Rattles. But I think with the prologue 5 and assuming it was indeed real Stormfather all along, there is one instance of him lying to Dalinar - when in OB he was explaining Oathpact and Heralds in the vision, he said "Taln had finnaly broken" like others and cause True Desolation - we know from WoB that he didn't break and he should know it as he felt another herald death - assuming it was him in prologue.

War is an option, terrible option - it only gives direction for a Odium's hatred which is even worst news for cosmere. It fits Dalinar however but I agree, it still doesn't make sense to end like that. Honor however is not just about what's right, it's more about keeping promises no matter of they're good or bad - at least that's what Odium told us, and looking how Honor was at the end of his life, it fits, but also gives us room for what's right. Kaladin arc is quite fitting for Honor but despite his passions he's lacking that hatred, he has some of it, or had. Justice is an option as it's directing that divine hatred against those who broke their promises. But it still doesn't fits for me that well, but I've no idea what could it be. Unity could be an option - but it's fits basically every combination of Shards and from narrative point of view it fits even better, not only Dalinar's arc but also Kaladin's and even Navani's. Unity is also quite opposite to War - so we would have two natures of the combinations of Honor and Odium combined.

Not at all, at least not me. It can be simply explained by SF changing after realizing his mistakes with Gavilar. But I still think there is something not quite fitting with that SF. The differences between Italics and caps could be easily explained when we look where caps appears - just at the very end of their conversation. At this point SF realized his mistakes and could begin breaking connection between him and Gavilar, knowing he's the wrong person, and knowing death was coming for him. And even fearing of what's coming so soon after Herald just died - it was after that we've finnaly seen caps. It also could be easily explained as SF expressing more human side of him in italics and more Storm one in caps - as we see sometimes SF behaves more like human even before bonding with Dalinar (relations with Eshonai, all of them). SF and Gavilar have probably months or even years of communication behind them, so it's not surprising that they talk more openly. Also SF in Prologue do not like to being ordered by Gavilar to watch the door - said in italics "I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar." - something that definitely real SF would said. Also just look at how SF is talking to Dalinar at the beginning of OB, just few days after bonding - he gives a lot of information, expresses his feelings, and answers most of the questions Dalinar asked - the same behavior is seen with Gavilar. Bond was very fresh and would probably still not affected him and his personality to that extent. SF is much bigger spren than Syl, he do not needs bond to exist and remain thinking and feeling in physical realm. But why did SF talk with Gavilar before bonding and with Dalinar didn't? Well he answered it right at the end - he made a mistake, and he promised to do it differently next time - which he did with Dalinar - completely consistent. Maybe even that's why SF is so strict about misquoting him with Dalinar as he don't want to repeat his mistakes with Gavilar? I'll admit, there is something not quite Stormfatherly in Gavilar's SF. But much less then you suggest. Mostly about almost open statement of making Gavilar a new "...Herald" and few other surrounding it at the end of the prologue. Also when he felt Herald dieing there were lightnings coming out of him - very stormy indeed. And the sound he made - "Then, the Stormfather cried out. A sound like a peal of thunder, agonized." Would someone who was faking it be able to maintain the image while feeling that amount of pain to cry out of agony and make it sounded like a thunder at the same time? And I've checked my newsletter transcript and as I've pointed out in my previous post there were only two sentences spoken by SF in italics - just after Herald death. Those sentences are very fate sealing "I'm done with you and your stupidity" rather than sudden appearece of real SF. If all of the italics was someone else then why would he just said Goodbye like an conversation ending? How could he not react to Gavilar talking to him/himself constantly in so suspicious manner? Why would he even say anything at that point? He didn't say a word during or after the vision! All of this points me to conclusion that different fonts do not determine who is speaking as it just doesn't make any sense to separate conversation in this way. Therefore I think that argument about different fonts should not be taken as prove for anything as it creates more problems with Stormfaker theory then resolves. If there was just few more sentences spoken in caps here and there than that would make much more sense to analyze the differences and could make the argument for it. "It appears Ishar can be absolutely bonker-balls in Tu'kar but still manage to hold it together when interacting with the other heralds. If this is so, then Ishar could be insane but managing to hold it together when talking to Gavilar as well." Nothing like we've seen before. Even Ash when rescuing Taln could not hold herself down from her maddens driven urge to destroy her images and deny her God like status. Believing Ishar could do it so well with Nale just year before RoW is not convincing at all. "If Brandon wanted to make it work" This is brilliant, that explains every theory that could be make. So let's not go that way. The only way for Ishar to do things like in Prologue is via connection manipulation, Bondsmith abilities - with Honorblade it is easy, however most evidence suggests that he did not have it at that time yet. Only other reasonable argument is that he was using his Ashyn-Bondsmith abilities which we don't know anything about, even if he still possessed them after arrival on Roshar. "As well, can the Stormfather see inside buildings before bonding Dalinar?" Not in a Storm. Valid point. But for Stormfather being able to send visions to someone, he would need to establish connection with that person - which could be enough to see around that person if needed. "Random thought, but part of me has always been suspicious that Taln died. I low-key have wondered if Ishar did him in." I was always wondering why they did not wait for Kalak if they didn't know if he survived. This whole plan would collapse if Kalak had died as well. But that is a huge speculation, and it was clearly establish that Taln dies very often during battle. "Why would the Stormfather show kindness to Eshoni if the Stormfather was actually more like the italic-voice with Gavilar?" The same voice that is talking about downsides of immortality and is expressing lots of human emotions? Like Dalinar's SF? Hmmm "I feel like people are saying that because the Stormfather has MORE Honour in him that this means the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, but nothing about how he acted with Gavilar seemed honourable at all." Honor is a very broadly defined concept, even Honorsprens define it differently among themselves. The only sure thing is that it is nesesery to keep their promises at all cost. For me saying that Stormfather holds pieces of Honor means that he is different than regular Sprens and is hugely connected to Honor which allows him to feel Heralds death. "and decided to trust Dalinar" Did he? He did not want to bond with him but seconds later did it and still had problems with Dalinar during OB like when he was used to open Oathgate. I would not say SF fully trusted Dalinar up until Battle of Thaylen. The italics voice was also quite trusting in Gavilar's intentions as was very surprised when told that Gavilar would give up on Braize. Naive even as he was witnessing Gavilar plotting and scheming all the time. I don't think there is yet any Everstorm spren, or at least sapient one, as it just appeared. And we know Sprens are shaped by human/singers/others perception. So there probably would not be enough time for that perception to manifest in form of a spren or to shape it. But maybe that spren is pure Odium essence so it doesn't need perception at all. However this spren is awfully quiet. I would rather choose Odium himself as the Stormfaker rather than spren as Gavilar was traveling to Braize and could establish connection with Odium. But on the other hand SF was very surprised and terrified that Gavilar would just give up on Braize immediately of which real Odium or his spren would be very fond. SF's reaction to "give it to me now" is easily explained as that was his very first words spoken with true internet - few sentences later explained even by SF as "it's not the Words that matters" or something like that. 1. As I said before, there was no Dalinar POV during that moment, as we see it only through Moash and Ash PoV. We can't say he did not feel it or he did with certainty. And then we skip year in-between books so to have that kind of conversation between Dalinar and SF after a year would be weird. 2. Ishar seems to have bigger connection with Dalinar as he is Bondsmith and Gavilar not, Ishar even said it that. Ishar would have to most likely establish connection with Gavilar by touching him. 3. SF was fully aware when Odium hijacked the vision, he was literally pushed away from it. Ishar probably would not have to do it by brute strength but still starting and ending visions by request would be something that SF could sense, and he would be aware of Gavilar talking to someone in his visions, even if he could not sense that person. We also knew that Gavilar's visions are the same as Dalinar's so they must come from SF. SF completely ignoring all that weirdness is a stretch. Also with Lift, he noticed her as soon as Dalinar did, so it suggest the same would happen when Gavilar would be talking to someone else in the visions. 5. He categorically refused to bond with Dalinar and few seconds later agree to it. Abandoning lie is much lesser deal than bonding and risking life. Could dead person from beyond even do that? You can connect to dead people, or at least to your perception of that person but other way around? Interesting idea, maybe not as a Stormfaker. "It is entirely possible that in prologue they did not know if Kalak died simply because the sensation of death of another Herald could be lost in the battle, if it is not particularly overpowering, but this is admittedly a conjecture." Seeing how overwhelmed Gavilar's SF was it would be the same for Ishar during battle, hard to miss. "True, but someone in touch with Connection could most likely do that (see future)" That's more of the Fortune thing not Connection. Seeing future is good counterargument but also it doesn't have to be that - he could just sense Jezrien blade as even Kalak noticed that Szeth had it somehow in Jasnah Prologue. It could be just a deduction not future visions. Huh, I'm providing counterarguments for my counterarguments "Similarly, Ishar could for example piggyback on connection to Stormfather through remains of Oathpact, and then use connection of Stormfather and Gavilar to 'touch' Gavilar." Good point, which would mean that SF has connection to Oathpact and it was him feeling death of Herald, completely removing that part form theory, which for me would be more convincing.

This is pure atium! Just hilarious! Syl with daddy issues? And then this - "He raised his free hand, summoning the bridge." - I'm dead! Just imagine Syl as a Shardbridge. Can't wait for Words of Radiance!

It just get to me, that Adolin has a CultivationSpren as a blade - that completely disproves my 1) point - event at Feverstone was definitely not isolated, as only the Orders of Stonewards and Windrunners broke their Oaths there. That means there should be much more then 300 Shardblades - which also means that even more of them could be lost in storms or ocean and there still would be hundreds or even thousands to be hidden somewhere. Why I didn't think about it earlier, I love Maya! That's true, however Recreance was the last thing happening during False Desolation, Radients had years to swear higher Oaths - more time that Radients of today have. We can surly assume that at least half of them was of third Ideal. But even those of second or first ideal that already attracted spren when they had broken their Oaths would resulted in Deadeye creation - if not there would be some famous survivors among sprens - which there are none. Yes, that's true - good point, however it was different form lord missing after Hightstorm - search party would be definitely send by his family, even just to recover body - they may as well try to recover Shardblade. That's also what I was thinking - many character's arcs seems to be going into Shinovar - Szeth, Dalinar, Kaladin, maybe even BAM could be there or in proximity so Shallan as well - not to mention all the Heralds. Adding to it Shardblades now it's getting bigger and bigger. And the Singers and Sprens after suffer the same because of imprisonment of BAM. Similarities are striking. But would sprens recovery happen when BAM would be freed or something else would have to happen? We shall see. All Radients at the Feverstone Keep was at least of 4th Ideal - Stonewards and Windrunners. Also in world book "Words of Radients" says that many Orders had hierarchy and squires - Windrunners were keeping the most of them - which would suggest that during Recreance there was more then 2000 Radients ready to be Windrunners, some just didn't have available spren - like today. Windrunners bonds with sprens on 2nd Ideal - Skybreakers also as Szeth had at this point hidden one. Even Bondsmiths had squires. It's interesting to know which order did not have squires - a Shallan's Lightweavers also had some squires but operating differently If I remember correctly. As we know from Maya's words they did not know that they would become deadeye, they did expect pain but not death. Also this decision was made spontaneously in the heat of the moment, this was not something they planned. So all Radients broke their at the level they already were, so no one of 2nd oath would swear 3rd just to leave a blade for dramatic purpose. To summarize - there should be definitely more than 300 blades that were left at Feverstone Keep as Maya is CultivationSpren, but not every Radient would be of 3rd Oath so not every spren would be turned into Shardblade. Even if assuming that half of them were, that still leaves us with 1000 Honorsprens alone, that could be potentially left as blades. Not to mention other orders. Half is too much? 1/4 gives us 500 - no matter what number of Windrunners of 3rd ideal we take, that still gives us bigger number then blades left at Feverstone Keep - hundreds or maybe even thousands of them. Also remember that descendants of people who first took Shardblades would become lighteyes and ruling class of the eastern Roshar - there are a lot of them. And as far as we already know from Kaladin - being Radient only temporarily turns your eyes light - unless this is some cognitive healing thing happening with Kaladin - maybe when he starts perceiving himself as lighteye his eyes would stay light?

Wow, I'm impressed @teknopathetic. It's very well thought and well argumented theory. I like it. Yet it's still not enough for me. I can see holes in it, so let's point them. I've already done a little analysis of Stormfather conversation with Gavilar and how much he actually lied in Prologue discussion, after all Sprens can change no matter how hard they're denying it. Here is the link to it: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/107059-discuss-the-stormlight-5-prologue-here/?do=findComment&comment=1332580 Now let's begin: I. Ishar's insanity We don't know anything certain about Ishar before we meet him in RoW. Every piece of information before was given to us by unstable and mad Heralds, mostly Nale and Ash. But they're definitely unreliable source as they're all claiming Ishar is still sane, and each of them adds themselves as sane one too. Nale particularly, after WoR went to Ishar, believing him, went back to hunting in Edgedancer, believing he and Ishar are only sane one, then Everstorm came, he went back to Ishar in OB (said in one of Szeth chapter) still believing in Ishar's wisdom - at that point it was years after assassination of Gavilar and Ishar was established mad by Stormfather in OB "cursing him at night" - Nale did not recognize that maddens in any of their meetings. We don't know when Ash and Kalak visit him last time. Ishar was always respected by all Heralds, recognized as wise and reliable, was guiding them - he created Oathpact, and he came up with idea to abandon it, he gave the idea to Nale to hunt Radients, which has no sense since Radients had been present for thousands of years after Last Desolation and did not cause much trouble (not enough information about False Desolation to include this, all points to BAM spontaneously connection to all Singers without involvement of Radients) - this idea already speaks about Ishar's madness. We cannot rely on Heralds words about Ishar, as they're all mad and believe in their own sanity, and part of their maddens might manifest as extreme believe in Ishar's wisdom and sanity even if there are visible proofs contradicting this. Except for Heralds testimony, we literally have no other source of information about Ishar's sanity before Dalinar actually met him in RoW, at that point he's clearly mad and even earlier in OB when Dalinar received message from him it was also showing Ishar's madness. There is simply no other source of information about Ishar at all, so we don't know when and how his insanity begun - ordering killing all Radients points for dozens of years befor Gavilar assassination. II. Honorblade Next when did he actually reclaimed his Honorblade? For this theory to works it has to be years before Gavilar assassination, 7-8 years before RoW. But Ishar's words about this points to much later time - last year before RoW. He said that "Shins welcomed Unmades, Neturo was not a human anymore when Ishar took his Honorblade and killed him by Neturo's request". We also know in RoW from Dalinar that all scouts send to Shinovar disappeared, Windrunners are welcomed by arrows and there is no contact from Shinovar. Sprens in Shadesmar also mention some weirdness going on in Shinovar in RoW. However in OB there was nothing to suggest that something bad is happening there. They reported incoming Everstorm - even just before battle of Thaylen, send message to Dalinar congratulating him, and Sprens in Shadesmar didn't mention anything going on in Shinovar, just in Horneaters peeks. Even earlier in Rysn interlude (WoK), Shinovar seems doing just ok - nothing was pointing for presence of Unmades at that time. All of this places arrival of Unmades somewhere in last year before begining of RoW but after the battle of Thaylen, and only after this Ishar appeared there and reclaimed his Honorblade. Not before Gavilar assassination but long after it. Without it, Ishar would be unable to highjack visions and talk to Gavilar. III. Oathpact And still there is his connection to Oathpact like you suggest. However in Dalinar's encounter with Nale he saw only one strong connection between Nale and other Herald - and who was the one remaining loyal to Oathpact for last 4500 years, who alone carried it, was being tortured and was denying the Return through all this years, who alone didn't abandon Oathpact - Taln. That strong line is most likely Taln's one, as he is the only one still connected strongly to Oathpact and did not abandoned it like others did. No other line was shown to be a little stronger that other ones. And also, still no proof for Ishar's ability to feel other Herald death - in Prelude Jezrien said they weren't sure if Kalek survived - that includes Ishar, Kalek also was surprised by the view of the Honorblades sticked into the ground and for a moment thought if all others had felt, he didn't feel Taln death, nor others "being alive". And at that point all of them were still strongly connected to Oathpact and each other - if they could not feel it at that time, then Ishar would not be able to feel it 4500 years later when his connection to Oathpact was almost broken. And without his Honorblade. IV. Stormfather Remember, Stormfather is not a regular spren, he's Bondsmith spren, he has full mind capabilities in physical realm without bond, bond changed him but even before bond he was capable of expressing mercy for Eshonai. Even beyond that, he holds the biggest remaining piece of Honor - that changed him, he is not just a spren, he is probably the second most powerful entity on Roshar, only Shards are more powerful than him. His more powerful than Sibling and Nightwatcher. He also creates new Honorsprens. And we know that Oathpact was a vow between Heralds and Honor. If anyone would be able to detect Herald death, it would be Stormfather through Honor's pieces within him. Now let's address your points: 1). Foreshadowing - "We have hints dropped that Ishar was lying about the Surgebinders returning" - either he was lying either he truly believed in his insanity that it was the only option. See point I. above. 2). On Gavilar's Inconsistent View on Human Mannerisms - I agree something is itchy here, but it's something that Stormfather is doing also with Dalinar and even Kaladin - OB when Kaladin opposed winds to protect people despite Stormfather unwillingness to spare them, he later guide Kaladin to the Tower as an "apology". With Dalinar we often see SF acting like a an angry storm-child and few moments later expressing complicated human emotions. 3). On the Insanity of Heralds - see point I. above. "There is no reason to think the Stormfather would consider any of the Heralds sane." - SF has no idea at that point in time about Taln current state, thus he cannot claim if he's insane. Moreover SF told Dalinar that he can't see any Herald so would likely have some trouble in finding them to evaluate their sanity. 4). On Immortality - SF lives as long as Heralds and even longer. He had multiple Bondsmiths, and saw death of everyone of them. He lived through Recreance and saw his beloved children dieing - which scared him so much that he refused to create new generation of Honorsprens for centuries. Moreover SF is not some unbonded spren like Syl in the beginning of WoF. See point IV. 5). On the Ten Fools Motif - Ten Fools expression is commonly used metaphor in Voring culture and probably even in entire Roshar. It's no surprising that even SF would use it as "The biggest fool of them all" might as well refer to Ten Fools that was just mention - "The biggest fool of the Ten Fools". SF realized how much he was mistaken, how much he miscalculated with Gavilar and maybe even like I written in my post about SA prologue 5 - how his plans to replaced Heralds to avoid Desolation and Sprens bonding with humans just fall apart with Herald death. 6). On The Font Change - can we really take that point from pre alpha release? It might got re-edited. But we don't know the full nature of connection between SF and Gavilar, SF is fully capable of speaking to Dalinar without the bond outside Highstorms (battle of Narak and top of the Tower WoR). We've seen SF talking to Dalinar with bond in OB with caps and italics. SF also manifest as shimmering to Dalinar few times. "The shimmer is "sometimes" and not usually. So to me, the shimmer is the Stormfather and the invisible is Ishar. " - Herald death and "biggest fool" was spoken from shimmering so you contradicting yourself here. SF mention Dalinar's potential in italics - which would be definitely real SF words. Well actually his entire conversation with Gavilar was spoken in italics and only two sentences were in caps "Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. And I will not prevent it." and "Your legacy." - however I'm looking at this at wob.coppermind and there is no caps at all, just non-italics sentence hard to see. If you could provide me with source of your transcript I would be grateful (probably newsletter which I should have). Anyway Gavilar and SF might have just stronger connection without Radient bond. "But still, once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know." - on the speaking pattern how do you explain dots before "...Herald" - it gives impression that SF is not so sure about that word, or maybe is he using advance speaking method called lying? Or he truly wanted to restore Heralds to prevent humans from bonding Sprens. Also the Stormfather way of speaking doesn't fits Ishar at all, even sane-one, but we have only one paragraph of this so not enough to compare. 7). On the Personality - missing rumbling is valid point. However all other is still consistent with our SF. Most of quoted sentences I already analysed in other discussion linked above. And our SF and Gavilar's SF is still willing to withhold information - "Oh, Gavilar. There is so much you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do manage to meet. Like paths to opposing cities." and also to share them when appropriately asked. 8). On the Visions - see my point II. above. - "And the thing that has miscalculated", "This is my failure as much as yours. If I try again, I will do it differently. I thought...your family...", "I will never trust your family again. I made that mistake once. I will not do so again." - all of this explains the differences between Dalinar and SF relations and Gavilar and SF. SF tried different approach with Dalinar which would not make him lazy, avoiding religion, and avoiding speaking with Dalinar entirely. Dalinar gets on his one to not nesesery correct conclusion but it made him work for it. "These visions are famously easy to hijack." - connection, it requires strong connection! Lift has strong connection with Gawx, Odium with Dalinar, Dalinar with Navani and Jasnah, and SF established connection with Fen, Gawx and Venli during Highstorms, during which Lift appeared. Not to mention Dalinar and Nahodon connection which could allow this weird dream-like-vision. For Ishar to be able to do it, he would need to establish connection with Gavilar, and we have no proof that they had ever met before - knowing how bad is Gavilar at recognizing Heralds it's both point for and against as we've never seen any Ishar lookalike near Gavilar at any point. And there is the problem with Honorblade - see again point II. above. 9). Sensing a Herald Die - point III and IV - you provide no evidence for it, which for me is the theory breaking point. SF was not part of Oathpact but Honor was, and now SF holds the biggest remains of Honor, which indirectly makes him connected to Oathpact. "there is no mention of the Stormfather reacting to the True-Death of Jezrian" - as there was no Dalinar's POW during that, we can't use that as argument. "If we take our in-text evidence, the Stormfather is in no-way connected to the Heralds" - but there is in-text evidence that SF have some connection at least to Ishar - "I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god." We also don't know anything about Ishar's Ashyn-Bondsmith abilities, how similar they were to Rosharian, if he still had them on Roshar and what he could achieve with them. "Dalinar sees the lines of connection emanating out of Ishar that represent the Oathpact even though Brandon has said the Oathpact is finished. We don't see Dalinar describe Taln or Shallash with bonds eminating out which I find odd." - your mistake, it wasn't Ishar, it was Nale during battle with Taravangian's forces. Dalinara did something special there and connected himself with Nale. See point III. 10). On Motivation to Make a New Herald - I've already explained how SF could be motivated to create new Heralds to prevent Desolation and most importantly prevent Sprens from bonding with humans. Don't forget that he hates that idea so much that he was willing to kill Kaladin, do everything to stop Syl from returning to Kal after they "break-up" and even kill everyone during battle of Narak, also at first didn't want to accept Dalinar's oaths - he quickly changed his mind. However with Chana death this plan had no future and was a failure - all that left was to gave visions to someone else and prepare for restoration of Radients. There is nothing that would stop Desolation from coming. He just gave up - as it was stated multiple times in books. And because of that he would never mention about this to anyone, as he never mention to Dalinar about giving visions to Gavilar at all, so why mention failed attempt to prevent Desolation and with that Gavilar's flaws? "Ishar, tells Dalinar directly that Ishar wants to reforge the Oathpact." - not wants, but know how to do it. That's is a big difference and it was preceded by "I know the answers to the problems that torment us". Dalinar asked only for help in retaking Urithiru. "Ishar started his Tu'kar Godking madness almost exactly when Gavilar and Chana died, so we have a timeline of motivation and sanity changes that fits perfectly. " - timeline fits well, I admitt it, I like that about this theory but we know nothing about Ishar's sanity, even Nale belives that Ishar is still perfectly sane in OB, and Ash in WoR - we know at that point Ishar was already insane. They're not reliable, see point I. above. "Ishar ahs also sworn never to work with a Kolin again" - yet he invited Dalinar to Shinovar to work with him. You're once again contradicting yourself. Only Kalak wants to desperately get out of Roshar, no one else. Nale works with Odium now, Ishar on the other hand want to die or kill everyone - "He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man." - which would be a point for you. "Why would the Stormfather both be trying to make new Heralds AND destroy the biggest army capable of resisting the Voidbringers?" - it was explained in text, Stormfather had given up upon humanity and didn't believe they stood a chance against Odium. He only gave visions to Dalinar because he was obligated to do it by Honor but wasn't obligated to bond anyone. 11). On Tu'kar - most of this is huge unknown to us. We don't know exactly when Ishar became Tukar's leader. He started the war with Emul the same year Gavilar died, but to do so, he would had to already be in position of power. We don't know also what was his previous behavior, and how was he invested in Roshar's affairs after Last Desolation. We know Heralds intervened before, like during BAM, and shattering Stormseat. And Ishar already ordered killing Radients - which is crazy on it's own. "And as for Ishar's insanity, who knows what the death of a Herald, be it Chana or the true death of Jezrian, might do to the person who forged the Oathpact. We simply don't know what that might cause to his sanity." - Ishar's response to Dalinar in OB already clearly shows his insanity before Jezrien death, also SF words about him, and if death of Herald increases his insanity, by the time of Last Desolation he would already be insanely insane. Btw Gavilar assassination happen in month of Ishi - point for you to include. Other one is in my other post linked above about SF in OB when he said that Taln finnaly had broken - despite feeling Heard death in SA5 prologue - which means that either SF lied to Dalinar about Taln, or it was not him that had felt Herald death in Prologue 5. Oh boy, that was a lot to write. I've enjoyed it nonetheless. No matter if SF wanted to restore Heralds or just simply lied, his character in Prologue 5 is still consistent with SF we knew from SA 1-4. Sprens can change no matter how hard they're denying it - Notum, Phendorana, and even Sibling are the best examples. Personally I still don't think it's not Stormfather, and if it's not him Cultivation seems also like a good choice but it's definitely more of a stretch. With your argumentation Ishar also is more probable. I will definitely remain interested in this theory. With your Chana Davar theory at first I liked it a lot, but I've seen it as highly unlikely, so despite my liking it I was more neutral and sceptical. Well it has changed since Prologue 5 release. One more thing, me saying that "Stormfather might want to restore Heralds" is not really a valid counterargument for your theory, it's just me expressing my thoughts on Gavilar's SF and how he's different form Dalinar's Stormfather.

Good point about gems and Shallan. However adding gem to Shardblade allows creating bond between wielder and sword, bond that Shallan and Testament might already have due to their specific circumstances. Deadeyes can be hunted by Angersprens but their attracted by anger and Deadeyes don't really seems to feel a lot of anything (except pain?). It is possible but we don't really know how Angersprens hunt, what it means and what it means for Sprens to be hurt that much - can Deadeyes be hurt even more than they already are? RoW chapter 75 - Adolin - it is noticed that Deadeyes are staying at the shore, that they "come from the deeps", and Honorspren Vaiu said "they should be wandering through the oceans" - it rough translation from my Polish version, I don't know how it's exactly written in English. But this suggest that Deadeyes can wander through bead Ocean, it' hard probably but they don't have to breath after all. Knowing how interesting Adolin's trial is for Deadeyes, and how many Sprens died during Recreance why there isn't more of them showing at the keep? Maybe most of them don't care, or are to far away, or are physically kept somewhere else? But Shadesmar is almost as big as Roshar, traveling through it even by bout takes long time, not to mention by foot, so it not that hard to fit thousands of Deadeyes there, most probably in bead Ocean, which is simple and fitting answer why we don't see more of them at Adolin's trial. However if most Deadeyes are not bond to human they don't even have to travel, they could have just stayed in one place for thousands of years. I forgot about Skybreakers, they probably have few of them, but they don't really need them that much, so probably don't have all 200 of them. Knowing how priceless Shardblades are and were even during Recreance, and that most Shardbearers become/are rich landowners, it's hard to imagine that they would allow themselves to be catch in Highstorm and even if this happens, someone would be searching for them and their Shards after they went missing for few days. Everyone would lost their mind knowing that there might be Shardblade just laying around - Shard rush! It would probably take more that one Highstorm to cover sword in to indistinguishable cream - much more then one. Highstorm wouldn't probably carry a Shardblade away with winds - it's slim and it can easily stuck in ground and be fully resistant to winds. But I definitely agree that some Shards were lost in Highstorms and even more in the Ocean but to lose all 200 Shardblades there (or more if Feverstone Keep was not isolated event which I doubt) is too much of a stretch. There still should be more that 100 Shardblades somewhere hidden by someone.

Unless you can definitely prove me that Ishar could have felt another Herald death (going to Braize death), I won't believe it's him despite having good motivation. In Prelude Kalak did not feel Taln death, and everyone wasn't sure if Kalak is alive, even Ishar, that means Heralds can't feel each other death. Not to mention his mental unstableness for which there is no prove that it is only recently gained, other Heralds words aren't that much trustworthy, knowing how much unstable they are - they might just want to believe that he is still sane. But Cultivation on the other hand... Gavilar death put everything in motion, sending Dalinar and Taravangian straight to her, and sending Listeners into Oidum's grasp. But still even if it sounds nice, I believe it is the real Stormfather all along, Sprens can change, he was manifesting to Dalinar as shimmering, he can lie (despite he did not do it almost through the entire prologue), he can lie by omission (like he ever told something important to Dalinar so willingly), and his motive is a even better for making new Herald - preventing his precious Sprens from bonding with humans and risking their life, and he holds the biggest pieces of Honor. Just fits everything. I'm still liking the Stormfaker theory though.

From Way of Kings chapter 52 - Dalinar's vision of Recreance at Feverstone Keep So, where are all those deadeye Shardblades? At Feverstone Keep there was 300 Shardblades left by Radiants. But at the present times less then 100 are known, with some hidden one let's say 100 are accounted for. But during False Desolation thousands of Sprens answered the call and went to war bonding with humans. 2000 Honorsprens alone, potentially several thousands more of other Sprens. Where are all those Shardblades? At minimum there should be 200 more, at maximum thousands all scattered around Roshar. But only 100 are known. First let's establish correct number of how many Shardblades should be found. I think of 2 different approach to this: 1). Event at Feverstone Keep was in isolation and it was the only instance of Radiants leaving behind blades and armor. That means there is only 200 missing blades, much more reasonable number, potentially easy to "hide". All other Radients broke their bonds "silently" without Sprens materializing as blades, leaving only Deadeyes in Shadesmar. Exactly the same way as Shallan, she broke her bond with Testament's physical form not as a blade in hand, no Testament-shardblade materialized in that place as far as we know. But there is a catch. Shallan is still bonded with Testament as a Shardblade and was using it, and maybe even some parts of Nahel Bond remain allowing her accessing surgebinding (she's confirming it at the end of RoW). I can only assume, that if Shallan dies, Testament would materialized next to her body as a blade. Moreover no gem is placed in that blade like in other shardblades. So if all other Radients broke thier bonds the same way as Shallan, would it means that some remains of Nahel Bond were still present with them? Wouldn't it also resulted in leaving shardblades when they died? A solutions to it - it is also required for Sprens to break their bonds with humans the same way as Radients did it. At Recreance it happened both way, as Maya said they had chosen it. That way the bond is broken completely on both side, and resulted in Deadeyes left unbounded in Shadesmar. Shallan did not fully break her bond with Testament, as Testament did not do it. Shallan later begins reinforcing her bond with Testament with small steps, only so much to allow her some access to her powers and blade and maybe even starting to replace broken truth/oaths with new one (Soulcasting goblet to blood?). If this is not the case, then let's think about next approach. 2). All Radients broke their bonds the same way, leaving shards behind them, like in Feverstone Keep, or the way Shallan broke her bond is the same way Radients had done it before, and as they later died, shardblades materialized next to them. That would mean there should be thousands of shardblades left around. This fact alone makes me feel that this was not the case and I'm in favor of first approach as it also explains how to properly break Nahel Bond. But I think there might be another problem. Where are all the Deadeyes in Shadesmar? We have seen a few of them here and there, they are common enough to be seen during our heroes visit in Shadesmar. The biggest number of them we've seen is during Adolin trial in Honorsprens Fortress, days before it began Adolin witnessed 200 of them gathering outside of Lasting Integrity, and 20 dead Honorsprens already kept inside, possibly few more of other types. It is also highly probable that even more Deadeyes gathered till the day of trial, few dozens or maybe hundreds more, but not in thousands as that would probably be mentioned by someone. 100 of accounted Shardblades would probably not be present there as they would have been constantly summoned by their owners during Desolation time, so most of them were probably non-owned - number close to our missing 200, when Adolin saw them, be not even close to thousands of Deadeyes there should be. Is that enough of them in Shadesmar to add up to true number of Deadeyes? We don't know it. If it is, then vast majority of them did not care about trial or was too far away to get there on time. If not assuming almost every deadeye wanted to witness trial, but they could not get there - something/someone could restrict their movement, or they may exist only in form of blades in physical realm. So where could all of those Shardblades and Deadeyes be? Somewhere on Roshar, as carrying them out would be too hard and in last thousands of years since Recreance we would have seen them in another words. So let's think of a place suitable for hiding all of that treasure, isolated from most of the world, place with good protection form weather and unwanted eyes, guards that may know how to use them, people already in possession of similar but much rarer and more powerful Shardblades, people with abilities to collect all of them form all over the world, people that might even use them in the past in failed attempts to conquer Roshar, people who probably use one of them to replace a newly appeared Honorblade to a Shardblade. Yes of course I'm talking about Shinovar! They all probably in Shinovar as no other place would be as good as that. Shins don't respect warriors and treat them as slaves - which is perfect if you don't want to lose all of your Shardblades and keep bigger treasure safe - Honorblades. It also helps preventing someone from fighting with another Shardbearer as they all have to obey their master command. And we know Shins tried several times to invide rest of the Roshar - nation that doesn't even have a city (we don't know of any, no city is marked on the map or even mentioned) was capable of launching invasions that left deep scars in history - how? With Shardblades, and Honorblades and cavalry too! Or maybe all these invasions were just so Shins could gather every Shards they could? That's what Shardblades somehow disappeared? Depending on how Radients broke their bonds, it would mean that Shins are in possession of at minimum 200 Shardblades or at maximum thousands of them! If it's the latter, Shardblades may be kept in physical form rather than bonded to thousands of warriors - that would also explain relatively small number of Deadeyes in Shadesmar. Or maybe just imagine for fun, that only few Shins are bonded to thousands of Shardblades each - that would lead to very "funny" situation when if one of them dies of heart attack, suddenly all of his Shardblades would materialized next to him - I would not want to live in flat below his. However I think there isn't that many Shardblades, as only around 300 was left, and rest are just Deadeyes wandering somewhere in Shadesmar as explained in point 1 above. That would leave only 200 blades in hands of Shins - reasonable amount, which explains their early success during failed invasions, without strong warrior culture (success as it was not forgotten since then so they have to conquered something before they were driven back). As Adolin mentioned, shardbearers can't hold conquered land, Shins were doomed to fail due to low number of warriors each time. That would be another obstacle for coalition to obtain Shinovar and another one for Szeth, our favorite UnTruthless with our favorite Evil-Destroying-Friendly-Superweapon-Nimi. Not only he would have to deal with bearers of Honorblades but with hundreds of regular Shardbearers too. And reward also is increasing in this scenario, gaining 5 times more shards then currently in possession of coalition (40ish?) next to Honorblades which could be a significant help in war effort. Not to mention that those Shardblades might be soon back to life, bonded with new Radients as they return - or whatever is that what Adolin and Maya have. Or maybe all of this is not important as releasing BAM will fix everything so who cares where all of Shardblades and Deadeyes are right now? Well I care! It was fun theorising.

I highly doubt it because of Listeners have records of this event and they place it before Last Desolation and before they move there to escape Odium. Urithiru was also abandoned before Recreance happened, so before imprisonment of BAM. The Sibling also broke it's bond with Melishi before Recreance happened (no information how much time before it) and due it The Sibling did not become deadeye - which would be it's fate if it remained bonded during Recreance. Trapping BAM was probably main reason for Recreance as it ripped of part of Roshar's spirit web and affected all life there, it was probably felt not only by Sprens but also by their knights. And also Oathbringer spoilers

There is a problem. Wasn't Stormseat destroy during Last Desolation or even earlier? https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormseat That's also why Oathgate there was not closed before abandoning Urithiru - it was thought to be destroyed. Oathgates were also probably locked the moment the Tower was abandoned. I think Shattered Plains were shattered by creating anti-frequency to Stormseat's Downcity frequency - that can be visualize with Cymatics.

Returned is the copy of person's soul made out of investiture and sticked up back to it's original body, commanded to do stuff, for example heal someone. All these skills and knowledge come from original soul and are copied, or they come from the body itself and are used by the new soul - they definitely don't come from command. My point was depending on how you view Awakening, it can be either body commanded to do stuff or Breaths commanded to do it via body - both explanations are also working with Returned and even with storing memories in Breaths or altering your own memory. But only one is true . If it's the first option then Breaths can't be commanded to become metal sword, there needs to be physical sword as a medium, if it's the latter, somehow you can command them to manifest as a sword without needing one. Commanding Breaths directly to manifest as sword are one way of making Azure's sword, the other way is of course using better command then "destroy evil". Something not that abstract and active, something already familiar to a sword and maybe even more controllable. Something like "be my companion and bring death to my enemies at my will" could probably resulted in much sane, and safer sword, or even get rid of "be companion" which is abstract and replace it with "be sword" or "be sentient sword". Personally I also believe that Nightblood was awaken with more than simple "destroy evil", and there was some advance command giving sentience before that - very similar to how creating lifeless is. That new command may be nesesery to create type 4 entities. Something like "Awaken to my Breath, gain sentience and fullfil your Command". Commending to "destroy evil" as a complete command with visualisation of gaining sentience as a sword, what evil is, and what destroying it means may be just a bit too much to visualize at once.

I might be wrong but I imagine that Awakening works similar to Soulcasting - you command the obcjet's mind to do stuff and give it Breaths to extend that mind to the point it can understand and do it using Breaths as energy source. But your explanation also works - we can command Breaths alone, memory Command like you point out. Returned are just bunch of investiture commanded to do stuff. Or body commanded to do stuff with immense power of investiture. Both can be true. But does it matter? Like @mdross81 said you could be able to command Breaths alone to change state to solid - similar to commanding Breaths to alter memory.