alder24

She did react to where Zane will be in the future, not now, revealing where she will be in the future. She didn't react to Zane moves, but she used that moves to know where he saw her shadow, where he saw her future. The Intent does fix all the confusion nicely.

We don't know what copper compounding can do yet, or if it even can do something much bigger. Brandon didn't tell us, nor did he tell us if it's useful that much.

Yes, that's how I uderstand it. That's not it. She didn't simply react to Zane, that what she was doing throughout all of the fight previously, which Zane countered easily. What she did, was to look at Zane (without thinking about doing that), to see where he sees her shadow - she basically reacted to Zane's Atium shadow of herself, therefore she saw her own future, which splits the shadow for Zane. Yes, this is confusing. Messing with time messes with brain. I would say there are two options on what Atium is showing, First is that the shadow is just changing when you decide what you gonna do, predicting what your opponent reaction to that move will be - but you can understand it as Atium drastically enhances your processing spead, and you still see it early enough to to make proper corrections. Second, the Atium already includes reactions to your move - which make both your and your opponent close future set in stone.

Yes, but workers aren't enemies, they are just workers. Killing them is not right. Yeah, perfectly logical, right? That's why Elsecaller would say that. Windrunners are all about morality and doing what is right. Killing innocent civilians is not right nor moral.

No it's not. That's not how Atium works. Atium doesn't care about probabilities, Atium sees the future as it is. Reactions or decisions of your opponents doesn't change the future, they make that future to be realised. It's seeing the future. The only way that the shadows can be split is when your opponet aslo can see the future - which we see in the books. That's how Vin won with Zane. Your opponents reactions to your actions are predicted by the Atium shadow. Atium doesn't care about decision, the moment you made decisions of what you're going to do, Atium shadow shows what your enemy will do in reaction to that (or even before that decision is made, as Atium sees it already). No probabilities involved. Close future is indeed set in metal, Atium sees it. That's not quantum physics. Typically electrical signals inside the brain travel at no faster than 120m/s, which is still fast. But Pewter somehow makes your body much stronger, faster and durable than it's capable of. Atium increases your mental processing speed, so that number doesn't mater, as Atium makes it much greater. Your muscles will move instinctively to react to the future Atium is showing you, to make that future come to past. Edit: You could think of the near future as a quantum superposition of all possible actions and decisions that you can make. But in quantum physics just simple act of observing, collapses that wave function. Atium is that observing mechanism - it collapses superposition, leaving you with only one result - one shadow.

Both of the opponents got hit in abdomen - they are not able to fight any more. And the right guy did try to strike, but by that time the center guy was already out of range and defeated the left guy. How is that not a duel? It's a duel in all the ways. To death - good luck with that in these days. Now give that guy Atium. He will win in most of the fights from video. Oh right, my bad, that was completely valid "you can't dodge" just to force your opinion. Than what? You do the same, predict where he wants you to be. He pushes you toward the table? Move bahind it. Pushes you toward a wall, move away. Pushes you toward rubish on ground - avoid. What is so hard about it when you see future? You ignore atium by saying "Stepping back only gets you impaled on the other guys spear, same as to the sides." like Seer would not see that coming. Every single time you write something like this, how the next strike would kill Seer, you ignore he have seen it with Atium already. You can't just say "and there is a spear". In any fight 1 on 1, Seer wins. There are extreme circumstances in which Seer can be checkmate, which won't just happen in any fight, and it would be almost impossible to make them in 1 on 1 fight or even 1 on 2. Every 1 on 2 or even 1 on 3 fight can be turned into small 1 on 1 fights by placing your opponents one behind another. It take just seconds to strike multiple blows and kill. In the very video I give you, the HEMA instructor told that increasing numbers of opponents doesn't increase their strength proportionally, as only 3 at most can fight at once with one guy. 3 seconds of future sight makes you see whole sequences of moves of every opponent you face, and shows you weak spots, places you can safly move, exposed area of enemy defence - you use that and in next few second half of those guy would be dead. And in books HoA Seers were dying while fighting with Koloss having Atium. The book also shows us 2 dead mistborn who burned Atium when killed, Vin being struck multiple time while burning Atium, and shows you every weakness of Atium. The books disproves your claim that "The books say if you are burning atium you are practically immortal and there's nothing that can be done to you". Koloss are much bigger than humans, every fight with them is just series of short 1 on 1 fights as if there was more they would be interacting with each other, as they came from the same direction, against army of Seers in formation from the other side.

Oh I knew you will say that. So what counts as a duel, in your opinion? A 30 min battle to death with blood and desperation like in every movie? HEMA experts are not good enough for you. But this one was not about fighting with multiple opponents. It is just 1vs1. It was not about location, it was about reading what your enemy whats you do to during a fight. Predicting where he wants you to be with his attacks. Skilled fighter reads from movements of his enemy, Seer knows what he will do before he starts doing it. That's a difference, it's huge. That's a insta win for any skilled fighter. Skilled fighter doesn't need more strength, or to be faster, but increasing his ability to predict enemy moves, to the level of seeing future is a huge advantage. Predicting the enemy is more important than being stronger or faster. Here is your problem. You create artificial scenarios when Seer is already in disadvantageous position or even in checkmate, just to prove your point, ignoring whole fight in the way. You constantly forgets that Seer sees the future few seconds in advance and can prepare for any attack, before it even begins, and want Seer to just "be impaled on the other guys spear". Fights don't last 30 min. You ignoring HEMA duel, the most accurate form of fighting we can use as an example, as for some reason you do not count it as a duel, and in the same time claim that "leaning more forward" in the middle of the strike is a viable fighting form. None of us has any experience in fighting, creating any fake scenarios or possible strikes is just bad on both side. Those who had some experience straight up said that predicting your enemy moves is more important than being faster or stronger. We gonna go around talking "and then he got speard" "no, he moves to side", "but there is a wall" etc - that's pointless. That proves nothing. Every single move and strike CAN be countered by proper defence, dodge, or attack. For some reason you think that a guy, that sees the future few seconds in advance, will just walk right into a sword. Just to remaind you, in few seconds whole fight can be over, as seen by HEMA, and in that time, both sides can make multiple strikes and moves.

Because enemy will just keep thrusting mindlessly hoping that one will hit? Seer sees incoming thrust in shadow, prepers himself, and times it with his opponent, so when he is going to attack, Seers is starts moving as well. And yes, it takes less than a second to move your body out of the blade's way, either by stepping back, to the side, or even without stepping, just turning your body, or leaning, and you know, using a sword after that to strike on his opponent, when he still finishing his thrust. Yes, that's sometimes entire fight. If not, they can easily see and chose to avoid positions that put them in disadvantage. For example, they see his enemy tries to push him back, so he moves to the left or right, or even attack before he does. Knowledge is a power. And this is not just some knowledge, it's seeing into the future in a fight. He can move away to safe distance, he can strike when he sees an opening, and he will see if that was successful, or puts him in danger, and can corrects for that. Yomen proves this. HEMA instructor, his students are fighting, of equal skill, without much experience in fighting with multiple opponents. You said "no human has ever defeated two opponents at once in a duel", all it takes is just one instance, to prove you wrong.

But the Seer saw that thrust seconds before it came, and can move out of its way in less than a second. He can time up that dogde to start moving when he starts thrusting. Duel don't have to involve same equipment. There can be duels when one side has some advantage, or different weapons. And Seer can easily avoid being put in that situation. Matt Easton from Schola Gladiatoria, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s7KfetTixQ - around 9 min in video. But you know what they gonna do. You know how they gonna move, where they gonna strike. This is the biggest advantage in any fight. Knowing what your enemy will do.

I say Starsprens for Skybreakers and Rainsprens or Riversprens for Truthwatchers, but they are scholars so maybe something different (like Concentrationspren)? And wouldn't Rocksprens (if exists?) be better for Stonewards? Or heatspren, Coldspren. Captivitysprens for Willshapers And Hungersprens for LIft - just for her

And just to prove you wrong, a little search on YT and here it is, a duel where one guy with two sabres facing two opponents, won by that one guy. 4 seconds long. Most or all of that duel would be seen by Seer before it even began.

When they start striking, they can't move as easily as you, as they have to follow the momentum of an blade. And just turning sideways allows you to deflect, or turning around after first block. I don't think so. In first palace intrusion? Vin was cut with an axe while running along the corridor, from second inquisitor that waited behind a bend. She didn't even see him. No it isn't. Seer controles the situation. He moves where he needs to be safe, he make sure that no one is behind him, he stikes in first openings he sees. They're dead. And you know it from what credible source? Because knight with full plate armor is invincible and can easily win against 2 opponents. But wait, we're talking about a guy THAT CAN SEE FUTURE!

Or, hear me out, moving when you know he won't be able to stop or change his action, still far in advance so you won't get hit? Which I disagree, as seeing into the future is extremely huge deal in fights. Move left and right? Cut distance and force him to step back? Attack? Or don't go inside in a first place. When there are 2 opponents, Seer still can easily outmanoeuvre them, as he literarily can see attack coming from behind. With more, there is a limit of how many people can be around you, and how many can strike at you, without interfering with each other. I would say 4 is a limit. Difficult for Seer, but he can use their numbers against them, and make them interrupt each other. But with multiple enemies, Seer is more likely to die. Why dodging isn't an option? What is that? Dodging is always an option. You can't just denay fundamental move in a fight, just because. You can also, use your other hand to deflect the blade. Edit - or fake an atack or move in other direction.

Mistborn era 1 happens around 300 years before SA1, Era 2 Mistborn is in between books SA5 and SA6. Harmony writes those letters in that gap between Era 1 and 2 of Mistborn, when it is still SA 1-5 on Roshar.

The Seer sees it comming before his opponent even starts moving, he can prevent it from happening. We have in book prove of it, quoted here. Thug can't do that. "Her atium shadow had split at the last moment. Two shadows, two possibilities. He’d counteracted the wrong one. She’d tricked him, defeated him somehow. And now he was dying." he chose wrong one. In reality you don't have future vision or powder increasing your strength and durability. We're talking how it works in the world where those things exists. And we have in book prove that even untrained guy with Atium, can win a fight against skilled pewter burning fighter. You see a shadow FEW seconds before enemy even makes that move! SECONDS. Do you know how much time this is in fights? There is no human limits needed to be overcome, Seer can just simply step back before anything ever happens, move to the side. This is a lot of time. The perfect move is to MOVE! Not block, but move away. You can do multiple things at once. Block and move, move and deflect, deflect and deflect, strike and move. Seer sees it before they even make a move. He just won't put himself in that situation. Simply by pushing sword with bare hand, or your blade, just slight touch and it's missing. No, Atium sees long time before he makes move... Like we see in the book. Seeing few seconds into the fight is huge, you know what your enemy will do, and what he do after that, you know how to move, how to strike, when he exposes himself. You kniw how the fight will progress before enemy makes his move.

Protect those that can't protect themself - workers can't and killing them is not protecting them. Morality. There have been 6 years of intense trade with Malwish, Marasi has 2 or more of them. Police, army and some individuals could easily gather few hundreds or low thousands of grenades during that time. Where do you got 12?

Yes, the caves are a good idea, and with rails, supplies won't be an issiue. Moreover the damage Windrunner can do is not comparable to bomb raids in WW2 - factories would be up and running after days or weeks of repair. Factories can also be hidden among thousands buildings in Elendel or other cities, and camouflaged to look like residential building. This would be a problem for Scadrial, but a problem that would be manageable at least. And the Windrunners will have troubles with oath - if they force workers out of the building, than they can damage it. But at some point people might just say "I won't go as I know you can't hurt me, and i'm no threat to you" than Windrunners can't do anything, without violating his oats. Windrunners blades cuts perfectly through material, and that can be easily welded back in many cases. Using gravity to colapse building - still a lot of material that can be reuse including heavy machinery. And there are also leacher grenades. How many Windrunners they have to lose before realising that it's to dangerous to make those strikes? And if just plated Windrunners would do this, than they can strike only few targets at best - not efficient, as Scadrial would repair and place new ones faster than they could destroy them.

Atium shows few seconds into the future, if atium would show only plans, then the shadows would constatnly split after Seer makes his move, as every move Seer does, the plans will change. It doen't. Atium have to take reactions of opponent base on Seer action (base on the shadow he sees) into account, as it shows you few seconds into future, not just one action. Otherwise the shadow would always be splitting, and Atium would have no use. The moment you she what action shadow will do, you know what you will do to him, and shadow then shows you how your opponent will react to this very action you will do, and how you counter that, and how he counter that - etc. EVERY action Seer's opponent does is base od what Seer is doing. That's how fighting works. But his opponent doesn't look at Seer's action to see where he himself will be in the future, but how he needs to react to what Seer is doing. Seer moves in just right time, to counter what his opponent is doing. He knows how far back he need to step, knows how strong or where he needs to strike, he knows what moves he need to do. Atium gives you few more seconds for your reaction, pewter doen't. Once again, if Thug got stabbed in heart or decapitated, will he be ok? I want te remind you, that it took Vin 2 weeks to wake up and 3 months to recover after her little talk with inquisitor in TLE. While burning pewter. Pewter is not a goldmind. You can't! I gave you the description of how that "leaning forward" would look like. With what momentum will you do it? With what force? Leaning forward pushes your center of mass away from your feet, and then you simply fall on your face. You can't just lean forward in the culmination of your strike, when your force and momentum are at maximum, and they're starting to decrease from this point on. If you do, your stike would have no force behind it, you would lose the balance, fall on your face and get stabbed in the back. Because to dogde you back away, not lean back, that's how you awoid being hit and maintain your balance. He burns Atium, he know that's enough. VIn can't lean forward, and if she tried to, he would've seen it and react either diffrently in the first place (step back not lean), or do 100 different moves that he can using Atium. He SEES the future. Zane striked turned his blade into her shadow on the very last moment, and Vin with cleared mind, without thinking of what she wants to do, and what she will do, and she was able to catch that little movement, and she saw her future with this, splitting the shadow. He moved split second before Vin even think of her action, showing her where she will be, thus showing her where he will attack. And thank you @Treamayne for providing all the quotes and examples from the books, with the very Zane vs Vin moment that is talked about, plus with fight between pewter burner and Seer with no fight experience. It's proves everything. I was going to ask who will live further in a duel with skilled fighter - a thug with no fighting experience, or a seer with no fighting experience. And this question was already answered by the quotes provided. It doen't matter for a thug that he's stronger and faster when he can't use it, he doesn't know what to do, and even how to properly strike - for a skilled fighter it would be like toying with a kid, and he would chop him to pieces. It makes all difference for seer as he can see few seconds in advance - that's few movements ahead - and he have time to reacts to fighter, as he knows what he wll need to do. He would be able to avoid every strike and be out of range, and even hit his opponent, and for that skilled fighter it would be so confusing as he clearly see that Seer has no skill in fighting, but somehow he avoids everything - just like Eland vs Yomen in quote above. @Tglassy explanation of how Atium works is better than mine. Either Atium shadows changes base on your action, but you can understand and predict that, or Atium shadows already take into account your future action, and your enemy reaction to that, making shadows unchangeable, which also takes away your choices, as you will always do the very thing Atium shadows already reacted to.

Good for you, the only concensus we have is that there will be no consensus. And to be fair, my favorite is Roshar too, so I'm on the wrong side, just bacause I also think that Scadiral has so many advantages that make their defence possible, if even successful. Yup, Rosharian soldiers will be blasted into oblivion, and lose morale so fast, that they won't ever go back to front. Few machine guns will destroy and rout their entire army. Roshar has one big problem - no oil, coal, gas. They can't make motor in the same way we, or Scadial can. But they can make substitute, fabrial motor, fueled by light. That's very intresting and would be fun to see what they will do with it - but not in this scenario. I do not agree. In recent years lots of new scientific discoveries were made, resulting in boom of new fabrial technology. One year passed from making rising clothes covering archers from rain, to Bridge 4 flying machine. That's impressive. Before that for thousands of year barely anything got invented, that's true. But that can be also told about Earth, Scadrial etc. 100% true. They have Bondsmith, Dalinar, that would supply them with Stormlight. We talked about it a lot, as that is the single point of failure for Roshar, if he dies, Roshar is doomed. The problem that Scadrial have is that technology and weaponry they have is limited in numbers as for the end of TLM. The first weeks and months would be hard, but Scadrial has modern industry, so after that hard time, factories would be switch into war time production, and new factories would be made, outproducing anything that Roshar can damage, or produce themself. Guns, artillery, and TNT will kill Radiants.

Oh yes Tyn is annoying, but she didn't really had time to talk with Tyn and tell her I don't want to do it. And what Shallan should do when Tyn announced her as a princess? Say it's a joke? Ignore her? At that point whatever she does, she will be embarrassed, so following Tyn would be the best option, as it wouldn't be ever known to Kal that it was a joke/lie. But that scene was still funny and great as first interaction between Kal and Shallan.

I'm giving you examples of HEMA - Historical European Martial Arts, form of fighting practiced and documented in medieval and modern period. That's how they were fighting in the past. Hollywood is not historically accurate. No, it's to do exactly what VIn did, and she not just reacted to what Zane did. If she went into that strike with a thought of using Zane's movement, to see what he's seeing in Atium which allows Vin to see future from Zane's movement, Zane would have seen it in her Atium-shadow before his moves and do something else, reacting to what Vin will do when she wanted to react to Zane, and Vin wouldn't be able to do it differently form what Zane had seen. She did it, because she went into that strike without thinking of reacting to it, and then decided to react to it, when Zane was finishing his strike, because she knew how Atium works as she experienced it. It's getting complicated! I can't explain it in word, but I know how it works in mind. Time shenanigans are too confusing. Who is you? Seer or his enemy? The thing is, in any fight you always react to what's your enemy doing, no matter what. In this fight it is the same. Seer's enemy is reacting to what Seer is doing, but that enemy is doing that knowing that he will react to Seer, meanwhile Seer sees Atium-shadow that reacts to Seer's action, and therefore he reacts to reaction on himself seconds before Seer doing it. Anything that Seer's opponent is doing was already seen by Seer, and Seer cannot change it by choosing to do something that wasn't seen by him (as there would be multiple shadows). Seer always doing, what Atium Shadows is reacting to and this is best course of action for Seer and thus cannot choose anything other. Not in guts, HEART! When burning Atium, you can just avoid it, and not get stabbed as you see it coming. Or better - decapitation. Center of your mass is in your way of how much you can lean forward. And momentum of your blade must be preserved or changed. You can't lean forward during active movement without it being part of that movement, as you won't be able to time it. The example you gave - "leans back far enough the blade doesn't touch skin" - if you lean forward when you noticed that blade doesn't touch the skin (the closest point between body and sword), before lean would be compleated (even before you start leaning), the blade would be cutting air, as it was carried by momentum away from the body. If you do it better, and allow your blade to be carried by momentum and use that to swing it back and take a step forward instead of leaning, the opponent would have lots of time to move, and react to what you're doing - move, dodge, block, or deflect. You're talking about moves made in less than a second. LESS than a second! Look at the gifs I gave you, from HEMA. There is no "noticing that your blade won't hit when it's closest and leaning forward", all made moves are smooth, in specific sequence, and sword positioning, followed by another smooth move, reacting to what was done previously. Leaning is best way to lose your balance, stepping is what you want to do, as it's givivng you much greater range and balance. All movements and strikes have some form, some way to do them, way of positioning a sword before, that will follow specific path because of momentum, not just random hitting that you see in Hollywood, or games.

I don't understand what you mean. They didn't live for thousands of years in burning hell with low oxygen conditions made by surgebinding, until they biologically adapted to it. They got out of there as soon as it happened. So their bodies were requiring 21% of oxygen and they stepped into Roshar's 35% oxygen. No problem. It's like getting out off burning house - you can still run around in smoke full of CO and CO2 and low on O2, if you get out fast, you can even save your favorite books (like all of Sanderson, I think we would have to choose the most favorite, as there is too much to carry). They were not biologically adapted to new Ashyn conditions of low oxygen, so they escape immediately. It's about where life originated, where it is adapted to live, and the differences between that and new envioment in which they are going into, rather than temporary conditions that happened one day.

Here you go, look at the foot: Stepping back is a dodge. What do you want dodges to look like, rolling around like in Dark Souls? Atium Seer is time traveling (kind of). What Vin did required special circumstances, and in the very last second reaction. She at first did (and thought) exactly what Zane had seen, just to change it by thinking and acting differently at the very last possible moment. That's not something that your average guy is gonna do. She did it, because she knew how Atium works, someone who doesn't burn Atium wouldn't know about it. You mean stabbing your heart would be "less life threatening"? Yeah, pewter speeds up healing, but multiple times during era 1 it was told how dangerous is relying too much on pewter. It is, as a blade just passed by the body of your opponent, it still has momentum, and you can't just "go further", first you have to swing your blade back at the opponent, which gives him time to move. And that's within 1 second. When you loose your balance at fight, you dead in most cases.

Radioactivity means decay heat. I think Kandra would realize at some point during 1000 years, that their huge pile of Atium is getting warmer, for some reason. There was so much Atium there. Also it would be weird for god metal, which is pure essence of god, to be radioactive. Unless the Shard itself is unstable, then it would make sense. Ati and Ruin looks quite stable. I think they would be able to see decay products within metal (era 2) under spectroscope - both Harmonium and Trellium had only one big spike, which means pure. Atium was not tested yet, but most likely looks the same. But I cannot wait to see how radioactivity will be used in Era 3. Radioactive Atium looks cool, tbf TLM spoiler

You do realize, the future the Seer sees, is already the one in which Atium-shadow reacted to future actions of the Seer? Basically the Seer has only an illusion of choice, as every choice that the Seer think he might do, is already predeterminated the momnet he sees Atium-shadow, and he will alway choose the very thing Atium-shadow is reacting to. It take very sperial circumstances to "split" the shadow - like Vin show us. It's time travel, it's complicated. Moreover, Pewter doesn't stop lethal strikes. If he takes on lethal hit, he will die. Atium allows you to see FEW seconds into the future. Do you know how significant it is? It takes few seconds to make multiple strikes one after another, less than a second to dodge a strike. Fights are extremely dynamic. I would rather see into the future even without skills and be able to dodge a strike before its even made, than wonder if that strike was lethal or not. Some HEMA for you: The best way to win a fight, even without skill, is to be out of range, or look for openings. Atium allows you to do that. "lean a little further forward"? and be thrown out of balance which would make perfect opening for a strike? Dodging is the number one method if you don't have a shield.