teknopathetic

It’s also possible we see both the StormFaker in the beginning and then the Stormfather at the end. Gavilar says that the “voice” sometimes seems human and sometimes seems alien, so that makes me think he gets interactions from both. The OG Stormfather just didn’t care to do anything and isn’t aware of what the StormFaker has been up to. And this is supported in the text. Gavilar says the “Stormfather” thinks some of the interactions are not going as they should. That could very well be the real Stormfather being baffled by some of the interactions after StormFaker interference.

But Gavilar's Stomfather doesn't say "I will give up", he says "They cannot know [a herald has died]", and seems to still be very actively working on new plans that will not involve Kholins anymore. Dalinar's Stormfather is full on Emo in WoR, but Gavilar's is talking about using people as tools and getting things done. Nothing about Gavilar's final interactions with the Voice makes me think that the Voice has given up or even remotely feels defeated.

I agree. The "voice" doesn't seem to desire anything remotely connected to what Dalinar's Stormfather wants. The Stormfather we see in WoR even seems to have given up and tries smashing the two storms together to give humans a quick death. Everything the Voice wants is exactly what a Herald might want and not what the Dalinar Stormfather has ever shown the slightest bit of interest in achieving. If we assume these are the same Stormfathers, then we have to assume that the Stormfather changed every single one of his goals, changed his personality, changed his personal interaction style, and changed his willingness to share information all so he could deal with Dalinar differently for very furtive reasons? And he does so even after saying to a dying Gavilar that the voice will never rely on a Kholin again? But then he does, because why not? And then what about Syl? Surely she would have had enough interactions with the Stormfather to have said "Man, the Stormfather sure is weird these days", but she doesn't see anything off with how Dalinar and the Stormfather are interacting. Some readers are saying the Stormfather has changed recently, but Syl would have noticed that for sure. We also see the Stormfather and Kal, and those interactions also defy what Gavilar experiences. I just think it is too much work to believe Gavilar's Stormfather is legit, because then we have to assume the Modern Stormfather has been putting on a persona for years all to trick Dalinar into ... what? Not dying in the Everstorm and making progress on becoming a Herald? That just does not match at all. I am not willing to believe that Syl would be cool with Gavilar's Stormfather. Syl would 100% ring the imposter-alarm. And if the Stormfather had gone through some traumatic personality grafting, then Syl would have noticed and said something by now. And if people are saying that the Stormfather is deceiving even Syl, then something is very very very troubling about the Stormfather overall. And I would be cool with that. The Stormfather being a villian would be intense, but I dont think this is the logical consequence people mean when they say Gavilar's Stormfather is the real Stormfather.

Pattern doesnt actually know what happened here. Pattern wasn't present in the physical realm for this, so Pattern cant really say what happened. Pattern assumed this was the case based on what had happened to Testament. The reader believes Pattern here, but in RoW we discover this is all Crem and Pattern is lying and making things up here and there for Shallan's benefit. Pattern does not know everything that happened with Testament, so we can reasonably assume Pattern was not a witness for the death of Shallan's mother. If there was a bright light, I really don't think Pattern would have any way of knowing.

I would also like to put forward Nohadon as another potential candidate for the Stormfaker: 1. When Dalinar hears Jansah read The Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral, Dalinar sees unexplained radiant light coming from the sound of the words. Only Dalinar seems to see that light. That is light is never explained in the story and is still a Chekov's Gun. 2. Dalinar has an unexplained Nohadon vision that the Stormfather does not experience. This proves to us that it is possible to have non-Stormfather visions, and suspiciously, the man behind "find the most important words a man can say" is the central figure of that vision. Dalinar remarks over and over that Nohadon seems more real than people in other visions. 3. Both Dalinar and Gavilar read the Way of Kings over and over and over and over, so maybe that is one way to strengthen the connection. Maybe Nohadon can connect to people who have connected to The Way of Kings book? Something happened with Dalinar and that Nohadon vision, and this connection doesnt seem to come from "touch" like with some of the Bondsmith powers we have seen used so far (unless you count touching the book) 4. Nohadon is the author of the Way of Kings and is the person we associate the most with "find the most important words a man can say", so he might be on our list of suspects. 5. This is not confirmed, but some people suspect Nohadon became a Bondsmith later in life. If true, that opens up a lot of doors. We don't understand at all what a Bondsmith might be able to set up.

We see that Taln has super reflexes, so I think we are to assume the Heralds are invested even without their blades. They likely are able to heal from wounds and things like that seeing as none of them had died for 4500 year. A shardblade to the heart may have overwhelmed the Herald healing ability and sent Chana back to Braize. It is even possible a living shardblade is a little different than a dead one when it comes to power. Even if not, you can summon a living blade a lot faster than a dead one, so that may have been what gave Shallan the unexpected window to achieve the kill.

I wonder if the Noadon vision might have a clue as well? Also, who is telling Noadon about finding the words? Noadon says that "she" claimed to see the future, but also claimed not to be touched by the void. You would think Noadon would know who Cultivation was, so who is "she"? He mentions the Nightwatcher later on, so I doubt the Nightwatcher is "she".

Shallan catches her father looking towards the safe a few times throughout the years as well. It is unclear if he sees the light too, nd this is left openly referenced and ambiguous in the text. Thinking a child is going to psychosomatically hallucinate light as a representation of sin is a little complex for my liking. Shallan represses things; she does not hallucinate them. As to why can only she (and maybe Lin) see it? Maybe they have a connection to the event that makes that possible. Maybe they are more connected to Chana for some reason. I dont see Brandon writing it in a way that has a child psychosomatically hallucinating. More likely he would put something in plain sight he knew most people would dismiss. We have been trained to dismiss Shallan, so this twist works pretty well. I also think there may be some sexism going on here as well when it comes to believing Shallan's flashback. I wonder if people would be so quick to dismiss Dalinar's memory or Khaldin's if they had seen blinding light after the killing of an expected Herald. Heck, we read Szeth's screams as likely a manifestation too. Sure, Shallan has repression issues, but something feels - more extreme in readers' willingness to dismiss her initial experience, to conflate repression with hallucination, and to discount her flashbacks about the blinding light that span nearly 5 years.

Interesting idea. We know Shallan met the Seon at some point, so maybe something like that occurred. Do you recall what Kelek said to them about where to start looking?

"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame. - Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. Mentioned by @honorblades ---- If Chana is the dead herald, I think we should talk about what the Bright Light Shallan and her father see was. What did Lin put into the safe? Why did he act so quickly to lock the item up? When I first put the Chana theory forward, my main point was that the Bright Light in the safe did not make any sense and that I did not believe that Shallan just hallucinated the whole event. That was the key element that snapped the theory into my mind. When we learned about Shallan's first spren and her trip to the garden, I was then 100% sure something magical was indeed put into the Davar safe (and not just a regular shardblade). Affter the herald-death, Child-Shallan saw a glowing soul be placed into the safe. Then Child-Shallan runs to the garden and knows that Testament would be in the garden (and not locked in a safe). Child Shallan cannot both believe her spren is locked away and that her spren is not locked away. It is only Adult Shallan that thinks that the blade was in the safe. But at the same time Adult Shallan believes she can summon a blade in TWoK, so Adult Shallan does not truly believe her blade is locked away in the safe. We then have Pattern, who may not fully understand what happened with Chanarach, convinces her that she must be misremembering the glowing-soul part. Shallan overtime begins to doubt if her memories of the glowing soul were real, and who can blame her? But childhood Shallan is not wrong about the glowing soul. Childhood Shallan has no reason to confuse a shardblade with the glowing soul of her mother. Why would a child see a weapon and think "yup, that is a glowing soul". If Shallan killed a herald, we really should consider that the glowing light truly was something invested and not the Testament-blade. Something was put into that safe that could not be a regular old shardblade. It was something that glowed somewhat like a dawnshard or the aural-light Dalinar seen when listening to Jasnah recite the Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral. What was that "soul" Shallan remembers being placed into the safe? If Shallan in fact killed a herald, then the light is almost certainly something real. Shallan, and likely Lin, were able to see the thing through the safe. Shallan is blinded when even walking by the door. That is weird. That is heavy levels of connection weird. Many had dismissed this as "she is just crazy", but I don't think Shallan was that crazy as a child. That is one MASSIVE psychosomatic response. If Chana was just a woman, that might be more believable. But if Chana is a herald, then bright glowy light hidden in a safe becomes something we need to treat as textually important. I have had some time to mull over what was in the safe, and I have four ideas: 1) A Soul Is it possible Lin knew Chana was a herald and somehow locked her Soul into an aluminum safe? Do we ever hear when the safe was opened? I wonder if Chana was locked in there for a time and then was released at some point (maybe when the Davars fled the estate or some earlier time I am forgetting?). It is also possible the soul slowly leaked out just like with Jezrian. I do prefer the idea that the safe had been prepared for a purpose though. Lin seemed to act with quick reflexes to lock the item away in the safe. If the safe did somehow slow the return, then this may explain why Chana lasted 5 years before the desolation. 2) Ba Ado Mishram Another idea is that Ba Ado Mishram was hidden inside Chana. This would mean that Chana had an unmade gemstone inside of her, and that the dark influence inside the Davar estate was that influence leaking out into the household. No one would ever think to look inside a herald for the gem, so that is the best place to hide it. Lin would have known this, and he held on as long as possible as the influence poisoned him. I think Wit provides some evidence for this. Wit knows there is a Dark Force influencing Shallan. Maybe Wit is one of the people who knew where Ba Ado Mishrim was hidden and was therefor able to provide support to Shallan to fight back that influence, or maybe he could see the tendrils of influence around Shallan. 3) An Honourblade It could be Chana's herald blade as well, if it was actually a blade. Maybe the Herald blade appeared and Lin stuffed it away in the safe so no one would find it. There may have been a coverup here. The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know" after a herald dies, so we know an effort is made to hide what has happened. We know Ishar was with the Shin for a while before Tukar, so maybe the fact a blade vanished was hushed-up by him or someone amongst the Shin. We have contextual evidence that at least someone didn't want anyone to know Chana had died, so a coverup is certain to have happened at least by one entity. 4) A Gemheart Another idea that occurred to me was maybe Heralds have gemhearts that get left behind? We don't know how heralds are brought back, but storing a soul in a gem might make sense. That is how fused do it, so gems might be used here as well. Bonus) 1 +2 + 4 They locked Ba Ado Mishram in Chana's gemheart. We see that Venli can lock a voidspren away in her own gemheart, so the groundwork for this occurring may have already been forshadowed in the text. -- Those are the four ideas I have had for what is in the safe. It could be something else, but I am now 120% convinced the glowing light placed in the safe is something important. If it turns out I am right about Chana being Chana Davar, then my supposition about the Glowing Soul actually being real is something I feel we cant dismiss merely as "Shallan be trippin". After RoW, I think we should be very interested in unexplained lights.

Shallan sniped an unprepared Herald with a Shardblade. We dont know what can kill a herald, but we do know that the heralds did often lose members each desolation. A shardblade to the heart might make sense. We also dont know if heralds are easier to kill without their blades on them or not, or if or how a herald can draw in stormlight or remain invested on their own. And in terms of physical death, Chana would have returned to Braize. We know the herlads dont go directly to Odium because the heralds talked about being able to hide on Braize for a time before being caught. We dont know what the "hide and seek" event looks like on Braize , but maybe her return was unexpected and she managed to hide from Odium longer than usual? As well, we dont know how strong Chana's will was. It is possible she took some time to break after being caught. The other thing from my theory was that Shallan claims Lin put her mother's soul into a Safe, and that the Safe continued to glow for about 5 years. In my original theory, the glowing soul in the safe was my #1 interesting item. I think the glowing soul and Lin's rush to shove it into a safe are still important aspects to whatever happened on the day Shallan's mother died. Many people discounted this as Shallan's delusions, but i very strong believe that unexplained glowing lights pulled out of corpses are likely important in a book series all about lights, gems, and souls.

It also comes short after Gavilar says "What are you?", which I think is another indication that there has been some hoodwinking going on.

If the voice is to be believed, they never had a bond: "I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar."

I hope we one day learn more about the Potter who also was receiving visions from someone. The poor guy got death-rattled, but I wonder if there is more to his story,

We don't know what happened, Frustration. We simply don't. Maybe Ishar did touch Gavilar once to make a connection. Maybe Ishar changed his plans and didn't put in the work to build the bond. Maybe ishar was in the Cognitive realm standing right next to Gavilar. Perhaps Dalinar being actually bonded changed something. Until we KNOW what happened, we cant discount these things. Or maybe it is another deity or force at work. But we dont have enough information to disprove Ishar. But I think I need to stop interacting with you on this forum, Frustration. I don't think we see eye to eye on how to theorycraft or what constitutes proof or counter-evidence. From now on I think I need to step away. Enjoy the journey! If you are correct, good work =)

I support you Nameless! If we have Odium using Moash to make a connection bridge to Kaladin, then we know there are some fun things people can do with connection. Even SP4 shows us some things people can do with connection that we didnt know about. I really dont think we know enough about what Heralds are, how the Oathpact works, or what ancient fabrials are out there, what Nightwatcher/Cultivation boons might do (Lift), what Cultivation wants, what Offworld magics might be around (seons), what Spren can do, how potential bondsmiths are found (the potter), or what Honour's death did to really discount anything here. Connection is something we are learning about bit by bit, and is not something we understand. No one has ever explained it to us, so I dont think we are in a position to say "that isnt possible". We are just not knowledgable enough to say what is possible with connection. We have examples of connection in other worlds not requiring touch but instead physical location, so let's not close the door on what is possible just yet. However, I do think we have enough hints with Odium, Moash, Noadon, "Unite them", Hoid-Kaladin, and Lift to say that there are many more options concerning the visions that we currently understand. The visions are demonstrably something other people have access too, and connection-lines are demonstrably something people can manipulate and utilize in various ways. "We haven't seen it yet" is not good counter evidence when our main Bondsmith has learned barely anything about his powers and when we know there are things being done with bonds well beyond our understanding so far.

If Chana is the dead herald, I think we should talk about what the Bright Light Shallan and her father see was. What did Lin put into the safe? Why did he act so quickly to lock the item up? When I first put the Chana theory forward, my main point was that the Bright Light in the safe did not make any sense and that I did not believe that Shallan just hallucinated the whole event. That was the key element that snapped the theory into my mind. When we learned about Shallan's first spren and her trip to the garden, I was then 100% sure something magical was indeed put into the Davar safe (and not just a regular shardblade). Shallan knew Testement was in the garden, so her belief that the blade was also in the safe just didnt make sense. Something was wrong with that narrative, and to me her idea of a "soul" in the safe made the best sense. I got a lot of "it is just the blade" on my original Chana post, but I would like to stress that this bright light was the key component to me making this theory. Something was put into that safe that could not be a shardblade. It was something that glowed somewhat like a dawnshard or the aural-light Dalinar seen when listening to Jasnah resite the Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral. What was that "soul" Shallan remembers being placed into the safe? If Shallan infact killed a herald, then the light is almost certainly something real. 1) Is it possible Lin knew Chana was a herald and somehow locked her Soul into an alluminum safe? Do we ever hear when the safe was opened? I wonder if Chana was locked in there for a time and then was released at some point (maybe when the Davars fled the estate or some earlier time I am forgetting?). It is also possible the soul slowly leaked out just like with Jezrian. I do prefer the idea that the safe had been prepared for a purpsose though. Lin seemed to act with quick reflexes to lock the item away in the safe. 2) Another idea is that Ba Ado Mishram was hidden inside Chana. ThIs would mean that Chana had an unmade gemstone inside of her, and that the dark influence inside the Davar estate was that influence leaking out into the household. No one would ever think to look inside a herald for the gem, so that is the best place to hide it. Lin would have known this, and he held on as long as possible as the influence poisoned him. I think Wit provides some evidence for this. Wit knows there is a Dark Force influencing Shallan. Maybe Wit is one of the people who knew where Ba Ado Mishrim was hidden and was therefor able to provide support to Shallan to fight back that influence. 3) It could be the Chana's herald blade as well, if it was actually a blade. Maybe the Herlad blade appeared and Lin stuffed it away in the safe so no one would find it. Those are the three ideas I have had for what is in the safe. It could be something else, but I am now 120% convinced the glowing light placed in the safe is something important.

Oh fair enough! There goes that theory haha

Szeth was training with the Shardblades, right? Maybe he saw a herald's blade return, but then that fact was covered up? The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know", so maybe a cover-up was made to buy more time, and Szeth was made truthless. edit: I meant return to Chana, so disappear from Shinivar edit 2: it is late and my timeline for this makes no sense. This can’t be true.

What I am saying with these is that there are multiple ways. If we had never seen Lift slide into a vision, we would all say it isnt possible. I think we should be opened minded when it comes to a Herald. Who is to say Ishar isnt using a connection fabrial? We know there are ways to use surges without a blade, so we cant take "how does he connect" as counter evidence. A herald simply has too many resources for us to discount when we consider fabrials and adapted arts. Maybe the herald of Bondmsiths is connected to potential bondsmiths. Who knows? Someone saying Kelsier uses a shapeshifting invisible Seon to pose as himself offworld would have been laughed out of the room 2 years ago. I think we have to let Gods be godly here and there. What we know is that something is very off with the Stormfather. If it is a fake, then there is a way to fake it. If Brandon wanted it to be a fake, there would be a way to do so.

There are likely many ways. I assume the Herald of connection would be very very in the know about what is possible, be it in-world magic, off-world magic, using spren, or using other forms of connection. I dont think not knowing is proof against here. How does Dalinar get a vision from Noadon? How does Khal meet Tien? How does Hoid connect with Khal in the Braize vision? How does Lift get into the Visions? There are a lot of connection things going on on Roshar that dont have full explanations yet.

1. I would add the phrasing. The Stormfake says some really weird things like calling Gavilar a “tool” or saying the StromFaker will create a place for endless warfare. Those are all very weird things. 2. Also, the StormFaker lies multiple times. I feel Syl would be horrified to learn her Father would lie to someone. Syl seems to think lies are very far from Honour. I could see the Stormfather rumbling uncomfortably at a lie, but I could never see him knowingly make one (especially so frequently and with no remorse) 3. attention is drawn to the fact in text that sometimes the StormFaker seems like a human man and sometimes like a spirit. This could be an intent reference to him sometimes interacting with the OG father and sometimes with the Faker 4. Syl had interacted with the Stormfather on screen as well, and the Syl Stormfather is exactly like the Dalinar Stormfather. Every Stormfather we have seen has been consistent. Only this one, which is strange in maybe 8 different levels, is off. It is convoluted to assume the Stormfather made a 180* personality flip in 6 years. Every indication is given that the Stormfather we see has different motives, manifestations, personality traits, and even manifests differently.

Because he decided to be his own godking in Tukar exactly in the same year. Ishar had to up his timeline when another heard died (as is said in the text). I think whatever his plan was with the Stormfather/Gavilar stopped being a workable option and it would take too much of his time in comparison to other needs. When that herald died, the StormFaker immediately turn in Gavilar and changes strategic direction We also don’t know what the goal was overall with Gavilar. It is hard to say if Dalinar was in the way or buying time for Ishar Plus, maybe the trick wouldn’t work when someone actually bonded the stormfather. There actually wasn’t too much time between the visions and the bonding. Basically, a lot changed when a herald died. We see the Stormfaker change their plans almost immediately after months of not years of work on Gavilar. At this exact same time we see Real Ishar become a god king and effectively take the role of the Alethi War King in Tukar

We have our motive for why Ishar would hijack the visions and get Gavilar to unwittingly betray humanity! I think you’ve added the biggest missing peice. If you combine this with the StormFaker’s desire to make new heralds, it is almost undeniable. Te Stormfather of Syl, Kal, and Dalinar have never shown any such intention. Ishar has shown such an intention.

I think the Stormfather even says "I never liked Ishar"