teknopathetic

Before SP5 came out and before the WoB that Taln Never Broke, I posted a theory that Shallan’s mom is Chana in a thread called “Taln Wasn’t the Herald Who Broke - It was Chanarach”. That theory became somewhat infamous with many people falling on both sides of believing it. The theory became more tolerated when we got the WoB that Taln Never Broke, and then S5P added a bit more circumstantial evidence as well if you’ve read SP5, then you may have noticed some additional information about one of the heralds that lends some credence to this theory. What happens in the S5P i am personally a little worried Brandon is trolling me specifically haha, but we will see!

No worries Mdross81! Thanks for considering it. We for sure could be wrong, but it fun to have a place to discuss. And to be fair, some people have felt the Stormfather has been sketch from the start. So maybe I did just miss the foreshadowing (though I still think it is Ishar haha) --------------------------------------------------- But here are my rebuttals to your first point: On Pulling People Into the Visions Dalinar and the Potter only experienced the vision when the Highstorm rages by. The visions, pre-bond, seem to be quite passive and automatic The Stormfather cannot just pull in anyone whenever he wants. He has to wait for the Highstorm to roll past Queen Then to pull her in to a vision that Dalinar wants her to see. The Stormfather and Dalinar explicitly wait for a Highstorm for this Multi-City vision-experience to go down, so this goes against what we see Gavilar doing. Bondsmith Dalinar, not the Stormfather, can touch people and bring them in to a vision when these people are in the same room as him. And Dalinar is able to control and summon the visions at will only after he has bonded the Stormfather Dalinar cannot pull people in from a distance, and the Stormfather cannot pull in people like Then unless those people are near a highstorm So to me, it doesn't seem like the Stormfather can take in unbonded people without a High Storm A bonsmith, however, absolutely can pull people into visions at will. On Seeing Into Buildings [Granted, I need to do a re-read and pay attention to this specifically. I could misremember here] We also get from Riding the Winds that the Stormfather cannot see into buildings (though can do so after bonded with Dalinar and when Dalinar is inside one of those buildings). So how is the Stormfather able to mind-talk specifically with Gavilar AND be able to see what is going on in a room? There is no bond and there is no Highstorm, so how is that working? This is different from what we normally see. There are times when the Stormfather booms something into a room, but full on mental conversations didn't come until a bond started. So is the Stormfather lying about there being a bond? Or is something weird going on here?

Making a Nightblood must be up there in Power level, so awakening has to be a top contender. I would like to know what Divine Breaths can do or what a God-king can do as they progress to the n+1 Heightening. I suspect a divine breath is extremely powerful in the right hands, but we just haven't seen their culture figure out what is possible there since the magic appears to be so new and because divine breaths are hard to come by.

To me, it is Brandon starting to add depth to what the Heralds were up to. If the final 5 books are going to be herald focused, then I would expect to see more and more Herald machinations. Ishar has been hinted at as a villain for a very long time, so I am happy to get hints of what he had been doing up until the night of Gavilar's death. Ishar seems like he was still engaging in the world, so I believe he would have been active in some way. Having him manipulate Gavilar lets us see what the big bad herald has been doing. We know Ishar has been doing things, so why not this thing. We don't have to add anything to the story if it was just Ishar doing Ishar stuff. If we assume the Stormfather was really talking to Gavilar 100%, then we now have to fit in another potentially antagonistic figure into the plot were there has been no foreshadowing of such a thing. If the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, then the Stormfather is not who we think he is. We really have to distrust the Stormfather if we believe Gavilar was talking to him because that Stormfather says some deeply problematic things in what appears to be complete earnestness. I guess I like the payoff of the "Ishar is maybe evil" foreshadowing we have been getting in all the books, and I just feel there would have been hints of Stormfather sneakiness if the Stormfather had been a player for a while. I don't need another reveal - I am hoping for want more depth and the players as they stand. The narrative payoff for me is more things like "Venli's old gods tricked her, and Gavilar's old gods did the same" sort of parallelism. We also know Gavilar's new goal is to fins out more about Oath-Sworn Sane-Ishar and the Oathpact, so we can already see tendrils of storytelling connecting these two plot points moving forward in book 5. Maybe for drama Ishar connects Gavilar with Dalinar for a little chin-wag? There are a lot of options IMO.

It would be hilarious if Brandon knew about this theory and is trolling with the SP5 prologue hints.

This might not be a lie though. It is possible the Stormfather just assumed it had to be Taln that had broken. It makes sense seeing as that had been the status-quo for 4000 years. I think anyone who was anyone assumed Taln must have broken. Even Ash thinks Taln broke. If it is a lie and the Stormfather lied to Dalinar, I wonder why he didn’t want anyone to know about Chana (or whoever) broke.

Tanavast being still around could be interesting for sure! That would be almost like the Stormfaker and Stormfather theories were both true since Tanavast Sort of is the Stormfather haha. And as for the narrative, I also like the idea of the Stormfather being a liar. I would love to see someone go through and find the times it looks like the Stormfather was actively lying to someone. From what I recall it doesn't happen, but if it does, then I would be much more open to the idea that the S5 Voice is the real Stormfather. I have a hard time thinking Gavilar's entity realized that lying was bad and that he shouldn't do it no more.

I am going to PM you on the tone of your response as you asked us to earlier.

1. Ash reacting is information we would have expected. The Stormfather reacting is not something we knew to be the case. The Stormfather has never hinted at a connection to the Oathpact. Yes, we could say because Honour died Dalinar/Stormfather can make decisions about the trapping of Odium, but that doesnt mean the Stormfather or Dalinar would feel the oathpact, or even more feel it so much that they lose control and scream about it. Do we think an event would overwhelm a being like the Stormfather? And that we wouldn't even hear a rumble of thunder? And sure, it is very possible to think that the Stormfather would feel a tickle, but a full blown scream? My thought before S5 would have been "The Stormfather and/or Dalianr may be able to feel changes in the oathpact and be aware of them on some level". I don't think anyone would have said "The Stormfather and/or Dalinar would lose physical control and begin screaming at the non-true death of a herald" The Stormfather feeling something could have been true, and that is fine, but our attention had never been drawn there despite if what you think is true, the Stormfather being very interested in the Oathpact overall. If the Stormfather can feel the connection, this would have been a good place to drop that. And if the Stormfather can feel it, then should Dalinar have been able to sense something as well? Since Dalinar, not the Stormfather, isa actually the one who can cancel Odium's prison, so why not have Dalinar feel it too? Maybe Dalinar hear a scream or thunder or felt a tug in his belly, but we see no hint of it? If Dalinar did, it is also odd not to mention that fact anywhere. Brandon does not have to mention it, but we are allowed to raise an eye-brow at his decisions here. I think it wasn't mentioned because it never happened, and we have just as much evidence for my thought as for yours. 2. We dont understand what the end of a Desolation even is. What we do know is that they came to a decision before Kelek was done and that people did not wait for him to be done before they left the spot. If Ishar leaves before Kelek is done, the other Herlads have no way of knowing. The Bondsmith who made the Oathpact is just as reasonable to consider sensitive to herald deaths as the Stormfather might be, if not more so. 3. Something Ishar did on Ashym made Ashyn uninhabitable and caused burns all over many of the refugees. I have seen a WOB that Ashyn pre-calamity had different initiation than the germ one that Brandon proposed in an unpublished work. 4. Coppermind: Fortune is a Spiritual property in the cosmere,[2] related to luck, seeing the future, or versions of the future.[3] The precise nature of Fortune and how it functions and is used, is currently unclear. Fortune has been described as "luck" by less cosmere-aware groups, such as the Terris three centuries after the Catacendre.[4] However, it is clear from other individuals that are more cosmere-aware that Fortune is more than simple luck. It's a way of knowing things you would not know otherwise,[5] and a way in which one can see the future.[3] It is implied that Fortune is a thing one can access[6] and draw upon.[7] Someone drawing upon Fortune can lead to events that appear to be coincidence. People can quibble, but Fortune is closer to Luck than Fortune is to many many other things. 5. I disagree. Kelek says he is getting worse. Ash seems to have been a somewhat crazy but consistent infiltrator who managed to hold together a crew before, but now has changed her goals and motivations entirely. Nale has changed his opinions and allegiances due to recent events. One herald got themselves murdered which is a big change IMO. Heck, one herald might even have gone to help Taravangian after the night of Gavilar's death. Many heralds have changed in the past 6 years - it is just Ishar may have known first and changed sooner. The Night of Gavilar's death leads to bigger changes in the Heralds than they have likely seen in 4000 years.

1. If the Stormfather did feel the true death, then did Brandon decided not to show it to us or mention the Stormfather felt it in RoW. If the Stormfather being involved in the Oathpact this is going to be a plot point in the start of the next book, why not pepper in some hints in RoW? Why not give us a hint that the Stormfather is in anyway involved with the Oathpac? Brandon plotted RoW and S5 together, so some direct choices were made here on this issue. IMO, he has intentionally not shown us the Stormfather's reaction in RoW. If we detect an authorial choice like this, we can speculate. I see 4 possible conclusions: 1. Brandon withheld the fact that the Stormfather felt Jezrian die from us for some narrative reason. He did not want us knowing that yet. 2. Brandon forgot to show us that the Stormfather reacted. This was an error or an issue with draft changes. 3. The Stormfather did not feel anything the day Jezrian died and this is a clue pointing towards an imposter in S5 4. The Stormfather would not feel a true death for some reason we do not understand, but did feel Chana die in S5 I choose number 3 because I think it is the easiest explanation. If you choose 1, you need to consider why Brandon would hide such seemingly innocuous information from us. Why would we care if the Stormfather felt it before the revelations of S5? 2. It seems like Ishar told the others to abandon the Oathpact with when just a single herald had died, but before all the fighting was complete. It is odd, specifically odd, that the group did not wait for Kelek to finish his fighting and get to the meeting point. It is completely within reason that Ishar said "One of us has died and that is enough. I am leaving. Good luck to Kelek. It doesnt matter if I feel his death later or not. Wait for him if yo want but I am out of here". 3. To my knowledge, Ashyn magic was not disease based before the explosion. And to what extend Brandon may change Ashyn magic is always open. 4. Ishar is called the Herald of Luck. 5. Ishar seems to have started his God King behavior right about the same time Gavilar and another Herald died. We know the Tukar thing started about 6 years from present day. So, we can detect a change in what Ishar was doing starting at almost the exact time the Voice says it will change tactics as well. We have no information at all about what Ishar was like before his Tukar war 6 years ago.

Hey @Frustration "Theory" and "Logic" are not always the same from context to context. Specifically, logical scrutiny is going to follow different norms between Science and Literature. Heck, even scientific fields have vastly different definitions of evidence (take the definition of "acceptable statistical chance" between Medical Guidelines vs Particle Physics. They are VASTLY different when defining what is likely "evidence") We know, as theorizers, that certain elements are being deliberately hidden from us by Brandon for narrative reasons. Because there is explicit deception on the part of the author, we will never have all the premises and bits of evidence necessary to prove a twist. We even known that some elements may never be explicitly explained. We are not operating in a world where all the details are extant or provable. We are not in a particle collider. We are absolutely rational agents if we utilize both inductive and deductive reasoning when searching for "intentional deception" or "literary device". The author has intentionally seeded the stories with twists, and there are different logical tools to find things like that. It is rational to gather evidence bit by bit and to determine what consistent statements follow from that evidence. However, we know the author at times will intentionally hide, twist, or misrepresent the evidence, so this will never be satisfactory. it is rational to start with a statement considered true as presented to us by the Author, and to examine the evidence/premises that are needed to support that conclusion. This is actually quite useful, as we know the author will intentionally make us believe things that are later shown to be false. We should not always trust the author as he is known to be intentionally deceptive. If you know there is a high potential for deception, you take the statement they give you and you rip apart the evidence they have provided. As the Italic Voice is being explicitly deceptive to Gavilar, and since this is extremely new behavior compared to the previous 4 books, I am going into it with skepticism. This is the perfect opportunity for an author to deceive the reader.

Interesting point! Thought the Stormfather doesn't let his hatred of the Church slip with Dalinar (as far as I remember). But I suppose the Stormfather Believers think that the Stormfather is intentionally changing his entire M.O. 100% Ishar is also called The Priest and is associated with Piety and Guidance, so this hatred of Religion could be a herald malady as well.

I agree it is strange. Do the Kholin's have a unique bloodline? Sure the Sunmaker almost "united them" but then so did the Shin that one time. Oh crem. I forgot about the Unite Them voice: Who isn't in on the Tanavast Zoom Call?

Anyone here think it might be Nohadon? Why? Well TWoK seems to be directly related to Bondsmiths and Herlads. Both Gavilar and Dalinar read the hell out of that thing, and both of them had a strong connection to the book itself. That book, and the words inside, are at the core of all of this. Without TWoK, would Gavilar and Dalinar have been on the paths they were? And who wrote that book - Nohadon. If the words to make new Heralds is in that book, then could Nohadon have intentionally done that? Could there be something up with the book itself? There is even a moment in a flashback where Jasnah is reading the Way of Kings and Dalinar even says he sees a weird glowing light, which hints that there was some investiture or overly strong connection being formed there. On Nohadon Nohadon may or may not have sent a vision to Dalinar that one time. If it was more than just "passive connection", then there is some evidence that Nohadon has his own vision thing going on. People have long suspected that Nohadon might not be the full definition of dead cosmere-speaking. This is because the Nohadon in the vision seems to lifelike and alive. Though not confirmed, people suspect Nohadon is a Bondsmith. If true, he could have rigged something up at some point, or perhaps their manipulation of connection results in some wacky post-death shenanigan's. Could there be something up with the book itself? I always thought it was just petty, but Odium zaps Dalinar's copy of the book during the Battle of Theylena. Is that just Odium being a brat, or perhaps the book absorbing the lightening, or was there more to that scene. If we need Gavilar to be connected to the person sending the fake messages, then Gavilar reading TWOK's may have built that connection bridge sufficiently.

@Frustration in any twist, the author will not explicitly state all the details of that twist directly at first. A twist, by definition, required hidden information or making the reader come to conclusions or assumptions that are not correct. In order to unmask a twist early, you a have to link details that seem unrelated or you need to read between the lines for patterns and implications. Many many readers have sensed an issue or inconsistency with the Stormfather. If you think that someone is lying to you, you have to go back and find evidence that proves you have been lied to. That’s how finding deception must work. You can’t expect à lier to tell you they are lying. I understand this will never meet your standards for proof or epistemological philosophy. I respect your option, but I don’t find your epistemology constructive when it comes to us in this group. Perhaps you consider other forum threads if this is something you aren’t willing to consider. We very well could be wrong, but I am not sure you would ever say we were right based on our line of inquiry. I am open to other explanations other than Ishar, but I want this be a constructive place to consider the identity of the Italic Voice

To the Everstorm Spren thing, we dont actually know what the Everstorm is. It appears to be a cutting of the storm that Honour put around Braize. But what was that Storm? Was it ever an entity of its own like the Stormfather was before the creation of the 16 Shards? Was it ever an entity the Singers worshipped before being put on Braize? What was even on Braize before Odium? We still have a lot to learn about who made this storm, what it is, and what it can do. Maybe it was a real Spren too in some way? We haven't seen hints, but at the same time it might not be crazy to wonder if there are more parallels between the Ever and High storms than we have been shown. I will need to see more intersecting coincidences for me to lean into the Everfather theory just yet, but there are many questions concerning the Everstorm in general. I think I tend to think of the Everstorm as new, but the Storm itself is a cutting from a very ancient thing indeed.

I am always open to other people being the Stormfaker! I am not going to believe the Italics Voice is the OG Stormfather in this thread, but I could totally be wrong about who/what the Italics-Voice is. Do you think the Everstorm was trying to make Dark Heralds? Gavilar seems to think he is replacing someone, so that would mean they would do a swap and put in someone evil? And what about the 'giving up' part. The voice didn't seem to want Gavilar giving in to torture immediately. Unless they were going to use Gavilar as a reverse-oathpact to trap Honour-Spren. I suppose the Everstorm was already pulled towards Roshar and in the Cognitive Realm, so it could be possible. However, as far as we know we have not seen any hints of a Spren in that storm. It could be a reveal, but I do think there would have been some hints here or there.

Yes. I do believe "I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS COMING AND WILL NOT PREVENT IT" is an actual message from the Stormfather because that message is sent in CAPS and not Italics, which is consistent with what I consider true about the Stormfather from books 1-4.

This to me was something more akin to his nature as a storm. People die and the storm goes on, but he wasn't malicious about it. He more felt it was just a thing that happened. The Italics voice seems more aware than what the Stormfather is saying here. I have burned and broken cities myself. I can see … yes, I see a difference now. I see pain now. I did not see it before the bond.

Thanks for the long response. I might need to break up my reply into a few posts because I just cant sit down for long enough to go through it all =) 1. Ishar's Insanity: I think the open ambiguity about Ishar's madness timeline plays to the Stormfaker Theory's advantage. Up until recently, the heralds were open to the idea of Ishar being sane. It appears Ishar can be absolutely bonker-balls in Tu'kar but still manage to hold it together when interacting with the other heralds. If this is so, then Ishar could be insane but managing to hold it together when talking to Gavilar as well. I am not willing to believe the heralds are magically unable to see that the Tu'kar God King persona is not full crazy-town banana-pants. There must be more here. Whatever is wrong with Ishar, the evidence from WoR and Edgedancer make it seem like Ishar is able to hold down more than one persona depending on who he is interacting with. It seems extremely unlikely that Ishar was acting like the God King of Tu'kar of Dalinar's interaction when Ishar met with Nale, so this to me is evidence that the Ishar story is more complicated than we think. It is also possible that Ishar recently took a downward spiral in the past few years, or that the Tu'kar madness is yet another bluff. Who knows, but since Ishar raises more questions than closed-doors, this actually helps the Stormfaker theory. II. Honorblade I don't believe Ishar needs an Honourblade to trick Gavilar. In my reading, the Stormfather truly is sending the visions, so we don't need any connection mumbo-jumbo with Honourblades at all The Stormfaker is Acting as a voice Sometimes manifesting an image in some way able to see a Seon coming So to me, these are not incredible feats. If Brandon wanted to make it work, he could choose from: However Ashyn Bondsmithing Worked, Inborn Herald Abilities, Fabrials, Old Magic, Purelake Fishymancing, Off-World Magic, Ancient Artefacts, Cooperative Spren, Basic Connection manipulation, Sleepless Shenanigans, Cognitive Realm Manipulation, or something else. I think there is enough materiel of war to make something work. And as Ishar was a Bondsmith well before coming to Roshar or even needing to interact with the Stormfather, I think he likely would know how to do something like this if he indeed wanted to do it. EDIT: As well, we also have some issues with how the Stormfather is managing to do this. While we do see the Stormfather able to do Booming Voices whenever he wants and froma distance, he doesnt seem to have refined communication skills outside of storms until he has bonded Dalinar. It isn't until the Stormfather bonds Dalinar that we start getting more mental back-and-forth. So why can the Stormfather communicate in italcis without a bond or without there even being a Storm? The Stormfather can BOLD-TALK without a Storm it seems, but italics? Not so much until Dalinar is bonded. As well, can the Stormfather see inside buildings before bonding Dalinar? I feel like I was led to believe the Stormfather couldn't (kind of like the mists), but maybe I am wrong here. When we rode with the Stormfather, I dont think he could see into any buildings. And if that is the case, how is the Stormfather seeing a Seon before it enters the room? III. Oathpact' Sorry that I misremembered the Nale/Ishar thing. I thought when Ishar fought Dalinar there was a mention of this, but I very well could be wrong. I will go back and check, but for now I trust you are correct and that i misremembered. And this is the part of the theory that is the most open to criticism. When Jezrian waits for Kelek, h says "we were not certain if you had survived". However, we dont know the timeline here. The group knew that Taln fell and then, at some point, they abandoned their blades. We don't know when that occurred or if they even waited for Kelek's battle to finish. It seems like Kelek was fighting some clean-up battles AFTER the was had been won (whatever that means). Maybe Ishar left the group before Kelek was done because it really didnt matter to wait for Kelek. I admit this is the largest hole, but as we know nothing of Ishar's timeline or nothing on what information he was sharing, this is still open. It is possible Ishar had hoped someone would die and was ready to forswear the Oathpact as soon as that was accomplished, leaving the others to figure out amongst themselves what happened with Kelek. Random thought, but part of me has always been suspicious that Taln died. I low-key have wondered if Ishar did him in. IV. The Stormfather The cannon Stormather's personality is so consistent when talking with Syl, Dalinar, Eshonia, and Kal, and that to me is proof that the Stormfather does have a consistent personality. Why would the Stormfather show kindness to Eshoni if the Stormfather was actually more like the italic-voice with Gavilar? I feel like the italics voice would have said "Sucks to suck, Eshoni". The Stormfather during the events of WoR showed true kindness to Eshoni, and in a time and place that no one but himself would ever know had happened- can we imagine the Italics voice doing that? Are we supposed to believe that because a herald died, that the Italics voice learned the value of altrusitc kindness? I feel like people are saying that because the Stormfather has MORE Honour in him that this means the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, but nothing about how he acted with Gavilar seemed honourable at all. Wouldn't the Stormfather be even more locked-in to being honourable if he is closer to the intent of Honour these days than before? Doesn't rumbling at being misquoted seem more consistent with being a piece of Honour than operating through lies and deception? What about the Italics-Voice seems like a boon from absorbing the shard of oaths? I am all for the Stormfather growing as a person and even being able to change his motivations, but the italics-voice was way way more than a change in motivations; it was a change is complete ethos. To me, the Stormfather was aloof in TWoK, slowly grew to respect Kaladin, slowly grew to respect Eshoni, and decided to trust Dalinar based on what he had recently seen in terms of what Syl and her gang were trying to do (mixed in with some of his connection to Honour's wishes). The Italics-Voice has no place in any of this.

@Frustration, I know there can always be a skeptical response to any unproven theory, but I think we need to be willing to explore these ideas in order to put forward any theory. Theorycrafting is about connecting many ideas together that individually are only slightly possible but that together become harder to dismiss. I do think there are enough connected ideas to make this worth considering as a whole. If we consider it all together and cant get further, then it isn't a good theory and can be marked as unfruitful. I feel this theory is just as robust and defendable as my Chana Davar theory (that was also dismissed in a similar way by many people). Many people just didnt like it, and no matter how many strings i tied together, they were not open to going over the clues in a meaningful way because the individual details were open to skepticism. The evidence in my opinion was worth ample discussion. I guessed it before the "Taln never broke" WOB because I let myself connect possibilities even though each detail on its own could be dismissed by skepticism. What is harder is to dismiss all the details together as a gestalt. The entire point is exploring what there isn't proof of on-page, but to then find patterns that surprisingly hold water when wove together. Each individual point in any theory-craft can be dismissed by "it could this though", but I hope people can look at this all together in order to get a sense of evidence before us. So instead, as a whole, do you think there is enough here to hold water? (separate from the specific ambiguity from point to point). Is it sane to start from “Ishar is faking it” and have these details line up?

Points in Favor of Ishar: On Foreshadowing The Stormfather tells Dalinar that the Stormfather never much liked Ishar. I think this feeling of distrust is a crumb that leads us to Ishar Piggybacking on the Stormfather's visions and messing around with Honour's intentions. We have hints dropped that Ishar was lying about the Surgebinders returning. We learn that Ishar likely lied to Nale (who may have the ability to detect lies), and therefor is capable of tricking almost anyone. We have Ishar introduced in RoW as a threat We have temporarily-sane Ishar directly mention restoring the Oathpact at the end of RoW On Gavilar's Inconsistent View on Human Mannerisms Gavilar states that he " wasn't certain if the spren could be said to have human mannerisms. Sometimes, it seemed so—and others, it seemed completely unfathomable. Today, though… That posture turned away, hinted at in the warping of the air. So Gavilar is sensing some inconsistency here. To me this was the dead giveaway that something was up, especially with the word "posture" On the Insanity of Heralds While the heralds are clearly insane, the heralds do seem to believe that Ishar had somehow remained sane So, a herald themselves would likely say "most" of the heralds are insane We get the entity saying "Immortality, the Stormfather said. It wears on men and women. It weathers them and their minds. Most of the Heralds are insane now—with unnatural ailments of the mind, unique to the circumstances of their ancient natures" There is no reason to think the Stormfather would consider any of the Heralds sane. However, Ishar himself would use a phrase such as this To me, the use of the word "most" is a slip on the Stormfaker's part On Immortality The voice seems to be genuinely concerned about the costs of immortality. Would the Stormfather truly have a strong understanding of that kind of loss? Should an unbonded Spren have that understanding? Consider this morose line and imagine if it more suits an eternal by nature cognitive entity like a Spren or a human cognitive entity like a Herald: Everyone you know will be dust by the time you return… (I did not add the ... ) The stormfather would have no experience with returning to a land and realizing all of your friends have turned to dust over time. Ishar however would know exactly how that feels, and would likely get a bit emotionally upset at considering it again. We also have: Eternal life. A legacy that spanned millennia—because you were there to shepherd it It is not so grand as you think it to be, the spren said. Which gave him pause. On the Ten Fools Motif: Gavilar says that the Heralds staying on Braize and getting tortured "are the ten fools for that...if I cannot die, I will be the greatest king this world has ever known. Why lock my knowledge and leadership away on another world?" But then shortly after when Gavilar says "Who are you", the entity states: "The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated. GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It So, grammatically Gavilar says the Herlads are the 10 fools, and the voice holds onto this notion, and when questioned about their identify proceeds to say "I am the biggest fool of them all" There is an earnest and uncomplicated reading of that where we can take this to mean the voice has just admitted to being a herald. If anything, it is a bit hard to consider why the real Stormfather would say something like that... On The Font Change With the fool line, there is a font change "The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated. GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It" The CAPS sounds exactly like the regular Stormfather we have come to expect. In particular, it sounds like when the Stormfather told Dalinar about smashing the Everstorm into the Highstorm. The caps-voice is how the Stormfather usually talks both in terms of style (caps for unbonded people) and in terms of tone (i dont care) This, to me, is evidence that the Italics are Ishar and the CAPS ARE THE STORMFATHER We also have Gavilar saying that the Stormfather seemed confused sometimes and that the whole thing was not going as expected. The Italics voice does not seem confused at all IMO. However, the CAPS voice would likely be confused as all hell at whatever was going on. The CAPS voice gives no information and seems to not care at all, which exactly the grumpypants demeanor Dalinar AND Syl have ascribed to the Stormfather. And the CAPS match the WoR Stormfather in intention. The Stormfather we know was not willing to do a damn thing to prevent the desolation from coming. He was just doing the minimal amount of work Honour obligated for him to do. We also have Gavilar mention that the voice does not manifest the same way all the time: "He looked around the small room, but the Stormfather was invisible today, not appearing as a shimmer as he sometimes did." The shimmer is "sometimes" and not usually. So to me, the shimmer is the Stormfather and the invisible is Ishar. According to the Coppermind for Stomlight 1-4, "The Stormfather has two different "modes" of speech. He uses small caps when talking to those unbonded to him, or when speaking so that everyone can hear him. He speaks normally when communicating directly with Dalinar after the latter becomes a Bondsmith" So if we believe the Coppermind, Italics is something bonded or close to Gavilar and CAPS is the unbonded Stormfather. As we see both, there appear to be two voices being used. The entity specifically says Gavilar and it are not bonded, so this cannot be explained by assuming the bond was severed And as well, the italics voice does return after the CAPS event. Dalinar also hears "Unite Them" in his mind, but the Stormfather is unable to detect this voice. This means that it is possible to send a voice to someone near the Stormfather without the Stormfather detecting it. On the Personality With Gavilar, we never once hear the voice "rumble". All the Stormfather ever does with Syl, or Kal, or Dalinar is rumble is grumpiness. The Stormfaker is a lot of things, but he isn't grumpy. Before S5, we have the Stormfather talk to Syl, Kal, and Dalinar. Between those 3 people, we see a clear and consistent personality. Do we think Syl, Kal, and Dalinar would believe the Stormfather to say things like: That depends, the Stormfather said in his mind, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said. "I regret," the Stormfather said, "the way I have treated you. I should not have been so accommodating. It has made you lazy" You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel…you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find. You are the one I have chosen “You’ve never challenged what I’m doing,” Gavilar said. “I would have thought that returning the Voidbringers would be opposed to your very nature.” Opposition, sometimes, is needed, the Stormfather said. You will need someone to fight, should you take the position I am offering you. And then…she fell. She was too small a being, not strong enough, to uphold an entire people. It all came crashing down, and so some brave men and women—Radiants—did something that had to be done, trapping Mishram in a gemstone to prevent her from destroying all of Roshar. The side effect of that event created the parshmen. But what would Syl believe her father to say? I think Syl would for sure believe: GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It" And as mentioned before, this entity is wistful about immortality, which is not something that fits a spren's personality or the Stormfather's personality as Syl, Kal, or Dalinar would understand it. It is a lot to believe that the Stormfather has been tricking Lasting Integrity, Syl, Kal, and Dalinar. And not only that, but has been doing so consistently between them. Gavilar's experience is the odd one out, and I think Gavilar's should be the suspect one. On the Visions The Real Stormfather famously does next to nothing when it comes to explain the visions to anyone. So, if the entity is Ishar, Ishar doesn't even have to watch Gavilar inside the visions. It took FOREVER before the Stormfather gave any information to Dalinar about what the visons were, so Ishar would not need to be involved there at all. Ishar could have noticed that Gavilar was getting visions from the OG Stormfather and then snuck in when the Highstorm left the area. But, if we want Ishar to be involved in the visions in some way as well, that is easy. These visions are famously easy to hijack. We have: Whatever it is that forces the Stormfather to give the visions to candidates like The Potter and Dalinar. There may be some way to force the system to give you visions. Lift being able to enter the visions at will for unexplained reasons that might be related to her being a touch more in the Cognative Realm Odium being able to bruit-force his way into the visions The Stormfather being able to bring in multiple people at once The Nohadon vision that doesn't match the other (which means you might be able to fake new visions if you wanted) Sensing a Herald Die: Ishar is both a Bondsmith AND the Bondsmith that forged the Oathpact. There is no entity on Roshar that we know of that has a stronger connection or understanding of the Oathpact. If Ishar created it, then he may be more aware of its operations than the other heralds. Ishar was also a Bondsmith of sorts on Ashyn, so we don't even need to assume a Spren like the Stormfather was involved in anyway. Dalinar sees the lines of connection emanating out of Ishar that represent the Oathpact even though Brandon has said the Oathpact is finished. We don't see Dalinar describe Taln or Shallash with bonds eminating out which I find odd. If Ishar made the Oathpact, it is completely within reason that his connection to it would be stronger, kind of like Ishar is the base where all the threads meet. As he is the base or the creator, he would feel a tug in the Oathpact more strongly that anyone else. The Stormfather has no known connection to the Oathpact whatsoever. Not once has the Stormfather ever mentioned being a part of the Oathpact. And again to that point, there is no mention of the Stormfather reacting to the True-Death of Jezrian. Dalinar doesn't hear a scream from the Stormfather or anything like that. If we take our in-text evidence, the Stormfather is in no-way connected to the Heralds and their Oathpact before this Stormlight 5 Prologue. Edit: some are talking about the Stormfather being a Sliver now. Dalinar: If we are going to say that the Stormfather can feel the Oathpact, then why do we not see a hint of Dalinar sensing it more? The argument from Stormfather-Believers is that the Stormfather would feel it because the Stormfather has absorbed Honour somewhat. But Odium does not say The Stormfather can free Odium, but that it is Dalinar. We also see Dalinar accepting Oaths, so he apparently is able to sense or change some bonds with Radiants. Dalinar likely would have telegraphed the "RAAAARG" that the Italics Voice had felt in SP5. Basied on this, I put forth that this is something Stomfather Believers need to sort out on their side. My Conclusion: Ishar is the only known being to have a unique and powerful connection to the Oathpact. Before S5, it would have been a crack theory to think the Stormfather would feel the death of a herald in anyway. However, believing that the forger of the Oathpact would be temporaily rattled by a herald's death is completely within reason. As the Heralds were made BEFORE spren-bonds, there is no reason to assume the Stormfather was involved in anyway. And adding to that, as Ishar was a Bondsmith before coming to Roshar, there are many things we don't know about how Ishar's powers work. On Motivation to Make a New Herald Ishar, after a Bondsmith oath is sworn in RoW, tells Dalinar directly that Ishar wants to reforge the Oathpact. So as far as we have any evidence for, Ishar is the only Cosmere-Aware and powerful entity to openly state that their motivation is to reforge the Oathpact. Ishar seems to be more sane in this moment, so maybe his mental health has taken a deep nosedive in the past 6 years, but he was able to remember his goal in that moment. Ishar started his Tu'kar Godking madness almost exactly when Gavilar and Chana died, so we have a timeline of motivation and sanity changes that fits perfectly. Ishar ahs also sworn never to work with a Kolin again, which may cause some issues moving forward and cause Ishar to be more hostile than he should be normally. EDIT: I think Insane Ishar is taking wont ever work with Dalinar while in contrast Sane Ishar is able to see that the potential in Dalinar is worth trying-out And going beyond this, the Heralds have a in-text desire to get off Roshar, so creating neo-heralds to swap out with is a direct and stated goal of the 9 heralds who abandoned the Oathpact. The Stormfather, before Stormlight 5, has never once showed any interest in creating new heralds at all in any way. To say "he is hiding it" or "he changed his mind" is a lot of handwaving in my opinion. The Stormfather in WoR has given up completely. The entity we see in S5 has a plan that it needs to rush through or change dramatically. If we are to believe the entity is the real Stormfatherm then when the Stormfather crashed the Highstorm into the Everstorm, was that just the Stormfather tricking Dalinar somehow? Why would the Stormfather both be trying to make new Heralds AND destroy the biggest army capable of resisting the Voidbringers? Reconciling WoR with S5 takes too much handwaving for me to buy it. My Conclusion: Ishar in RoW is the only powerful entity we have that has on-screen stated that they would like to reforge the Oathpact. Before S5, it would be a cracktheory to believe the Stormfather had anything to do with the heralds, while it was textually explicit that ishar thought reforging the Oathpact was a worthwhile endeavor. On Tu'kar For reason's unknown, Ishar decides to head to Tu'kar and declare himself the God-king. This happens almost exactly after Gavilar's feast and Chana's death. We have to explain why Ishar changed his behaviour almost exactly when Chana and Gavilar die. Everyone has to explain this (both Stormfather Believers and Stormfaker Believers) So we see a change in Ishar's known behavior right when these events occur, so we are able to postulate that he had his motivations changed around that time as well which fits my theory just fine. Even those who don't think Ishar is the Stormfaker do think ishar's behaviour seems to indicate he knew something had happened on the night of Gavilar/Chana's death. Ishar does change his behavior after Chana dies. He heads to Tu'kar and starts the wars there by declaring himself the God King. In my opinion, Ishar went a bit crazy and started believing the lies he had been telling Gavilar, and now Ishar is a complete crazy mess believing he actually is the avatar of the almighty like Gavilar thought he was. Ishar's intended to go to Tu'kar to rush his plan and explore pulling into the cognitive realm, but as Kelek mentions, the mental illness appears to be getting worse with the heralds of late, and Ishar took a HUGE dip in sanity once he started messing about in Tukar And as for Ishar's insanity, who knows what the death of a Herald, be it Chana or the true death of Jezrian, might do to the person who forged the Oathpact. We simply don't know what that might cause to his sanity. So, with all this, I feel it is NOT a Cracktheory. I actually think the Stormfather Believers have way more explaining to do than this reading of the text does.

I think there is still a pretty good theory that Shallan is in someway Chanarach (like a cutting), but I am not convinced there is enough evidence either way. Hoid's reaction makes me thin the similarity in appearance or aura is absolutely overwhelming though, which is odd.

Ishar Star