Pathfinder

So I have one comment and will leave it at that because of how the last thread progressed. My issue with saying that people called a pantheon gods, thereby means if an entity exists that is like the description of a pantheon of gods, then that is the definition of god, and thereby proves the existence of gods I believe is faulty. If we look up the definition of god, we have two: 1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. 2.(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. Both specify in regards to a religion, that the individuals that believe that religion, defines a god as such. That does not mean that is the objective definition of god. It means individuals however many years ago, or individuals today personally define god as such. That does not mean an atheist has to then prescribe to that definition, nor does it mean its existence or non-existence disproves the atheist. Just like people hundreds of years ago thought that Zeus being the cause of lightning bolts was a point in fact, till it was proven later to not be. Zeus did not any more exist hundreds of years ago, than he does now. Just back then there lacked the sufficient scientific capabilities to disprove it. Just like if Zeus suddenly showed up today and used lightning bolts does not make him a god. We could simply lack the scientific capabilities to prove that Zeus is actually an alien using technology we have not discovered yet, and appropriated our mythology to rule over us. Yet again, Zeus was not any more or less a god because what showed up aligned with what a group of individuals considered a god. Only for them was that validated. That still does not prove nor disprove the atheist. And not for the first time, I really don't get this compulsion for people both in the book, and outside to "prove Jasnah wrong". The character herself is perfectly content in holding her beliefs, and respecting others of theirs. When Dalinar came to the conclusion that the Almighty is not god, she did not go "ha ha, neener neener". She understood the difficulty of such an experience, consoled him, and supported him. She did not care what conclusion he came to regarding his religion, so long as he thought on it, and it was true to himself. Navani is still an orthodox vorin. Jasnah did not stop her from practicing either. The only times Jasnah espouses her beliefs is when someone decides to forcefully insert themselves in her life and tell her that her beliefs are wrong. So she is naturally going to defend herself. So for an individual who has been repeatedly understanding and supportive to other individual's belief systems (Dalinar, Shallan, and Navani off the top of my head alone), despite being repeatedly attacked for her own, I wonder when she will ever catch a break.

My intention of mentioning that he rationalized it was not to say anything negative regarding him. Just that we have precedent that Kadash is willing to rationalize information to support his beliefs. Hmmm, maybe if I give an example it might help with the confusion. Before I do so, let me be as clear as possible. What I am about to write is not a theory. It is not something to be examined and disproven. It is an example of a potential way events could have possibly happened that could result in "spy" Kadash. I am not saying we have proof that is how it went. It is meant as an illustration. Hopefully that covers things adequately. 1. Kadash and Dalinar are genuine friends and comrades in arms during fights. 2. Rathalas happens. Kadash becomes disillusioned with war and joins the ardentia 3. While in the ardentia, the Sons of Honor recruit him based on his faith in the heralds 4. All through Way of Kings and Words of Radiance Kadash is genuinely helping Dalinar while aiding the Sons of Honor because nothing has occurred to cause SoH and Dalinars goals to conflict yet. 5. Dalinar states the Almighty is dead and blasphemes the Vorin Church in which gave Kadash such solace. Kadash tries time and again to bring Dalinar back into the fold, while rationalizing away any new information that disputes his beliefs. 6. Realizing that Dalinar will not change, and believing that stance is harmful to the Vorin church, Kadash agrees with the Sons of Honor, that are now actively moving against Dalinar. In this example, Kadash was genuinely Dalinar's friend, and for the most part truly interested in Dalinar's well being while also being a part of the Sons of Honor. The status only changed when Dalinar fully committed, in the eyes of the church, heresy. So again, this is not meant to be a proof. Like 90 percent of it is pure conjecture. The only reason I use it as an illustration is to show it is possible that Kadash could be entirely genuine, not have Dalinar be crem at judging people, and still be the spy. Hope that helps.

Littles or child alters are not independent and require intimacy, but that does not negate their existence.

I am sorry you feel that way, and if that is your prerogative, then you are certainly entitled to it. Just hope your enjoyment of the other aspects of the novel out weight your disappointment in this aspect.

We know Gavilar shared his visions with a select group. Amaram, aware of the visions, still tried to use the visions to validate his world view. Up until it was conclusively proven false. Then he jumped ship. Kadash had still presented ways to rationalize the situation. I am confused because at least the way you present it, would be further supportive of what I said, rather than discount it. If Dalinar could be duped by Sadeas, who he always knew to be slime, then why would it be far fetched for Dalinar to be duped by a long time friend and confidant who fought side by side with him prior to Rathalas?

Well honestly I am making an assumption, but I would imagine after a year, knowing the enemy is in the cognitive realm, with one order that can transfer to and fro as well as peer in, the growing numbers of an order that can peer in, and another order that can create an actual perpendicularity at will, would result in them fortifying the cognitive side of Urithiru. Coupled with also the growing number of bonded spren (which I thought I mentioned already, but will do so again here), which as they gain sapience via oath advancement would provide additional intel. We have two groups that have traveled the cognitive realm unprepared, do so and survive (Jasnah, and Shallan). This is a planned expedition that would account for the pitfalls of the unplanned forays. I really don't feel that Dalinar and co just up and decided "hey, lets throw a bunch of people into the cognitive realm with no preparation or knowledge like last time. That worked super well!". Didn't say you had to. People go off the grid and hike/camp for days all the time with just the provisions they bring alone. You can fit a lot in a pack if you know what to bring, and how to store it. Which for an organized expedition, with military knowledge, as well as past experience would account for that. Still produces resources that they can consume via manifesting. Not sure how that changes anything. Not sure when I implied that they were have an army of radiant spren pack mules. I merely referred to the immediate party's spren. Though now that you bring it up, if there are spren that can be used to drive boats, then why not actual spren pack mules unconnected to any radiant? There are spren that are "animal like" in the cognitive realm. We have seen some used already as beasts of burden for the ships (as I mentioned). So why not to carry supplies? Riino, as per Azure, is living on the fringes of civilization because of the nature of his occupation. I don't think we can really use him as an example. As I said twice now, at the very least we know for a fact ten oathgate platforms will be present in the cognitive realm just like they were at Kholinar and Thaylenah. So it is not just an expansive ocean on the cognitive side of Urithiru. Further I would hazard considering the nature of the installation for centuries, with the fact that many members of the radiants used to come and go from the cognitive realm normally, that there would be a further emplacement present on that side. I think far more evidence points to an Urithiru analogue on the cognitive realm than not. Don't have to assume that. We have no idea the range of sight of Dalinar's perp power is, and that is assuming the Fused are actively looking for exactly that. Basically I feel it is better via Occam's razor to assume they have prepared for a large part of contingencies far more than we could, because they live in the world, and have experienced the cognitive realm. They would account for things that we simply lack the experience to think of.

Don't think we know enough about Kadash to know whether or not he would be comfortable as a double agent, but respect that is how you feel, to each their own. He could be a member of the SoH as far back as Rathalas. Just throwing out ideas. In Words of Radiance Adolin mentions that Kadash is one of Dalinar's foremost ardents. He was privy to proposals such as installing windbreaks to expand the construction yards. So although he is not as present on screen, I do think he has held a pretty important position. But like I said, more throwing out ideas so I can say I called it if it comes to pass

Kadash was a confidant of Dalinar's in Oathbringer. Things only changed due to his upset at Dalinar stating the Almighty is dead. Kadash has a direct line to all the main individuals. He has access to Dalinar and Navani. He has access to Adolin and through him Shallan. I would imagine he had access to Renarin considering Renarin would be questioning his role in regards to the religion given his future sight. So seems pretty well positioned to me. But totally get it doesn't work for everyone. It was remarked that Kadash rose through the ranks in the Vorin church oddly quickly. Could have happened with the assistance of the Sons of Honor. I didn't say he was the leader. The title of the thread was Ialai's spy. So I was saying Kadash is her spy.

As mentioned in a prior post, the oathgates are physically present in the cognitive realm and Urithiru has 10 of them. Theoretically Urithiru itself could function the same Not necessarily as I mentioned in my prior post they would have more food and drink than they need to make it from location to location. But as I mentioned in my prior post, spren don't need to eat or drink. But condensing water is manifesting. The captain calls it that. Why would distance from the radiant matter in spren carrying supplies? I think the individual was referring to manifesting food and water.

I call Kadash.

It is not my intent to derail this thread so perhaps we can continue this via PM, but that was not my intent. I was not warning you as in a threat. I was concerned that my post was being represented as being in favor of one side over the other. So I was trying to say at least my own intention was not to favor any side. You are of course free to believe as you wish and take whatever side you want. That post nor my subsequent posts were not meant to be antagonistic nor elicit upset.

Not sure what I really did to deserve that response. My intention was to clarify that my post was not saying the alters existence as they are now are an improvement, a deterioration, or a maintenance of quality of life. They just are. But to each their own.

Ah I understand now.

I caution about the use of the words "threatening" and "problem" as in this circumstance it is rather subjective and could convey an unintended concept. Basically what I mean is, yes Veil and Radiant are not "threatening" insofar as their purpose to Shallan is to help keep her safe. But it could also be seen as "threatening" because of her reliance on them to handle tasks she herself is capable of. But yet again it could be seen as not "threatening" because they could be a stop gap till she gets to the point where she can handle the tasks herself. But once more, that is dependent on whether or not she ever endeavors to take on these tasks for herself. So technically Veil and Radiant themselves are not "threatening" but their presence could be "threatening" to further progress depending on how Shallan uses them. Further regarding whether or not it is a "problem" for a personality to be a primary. The primary is serving a purpose that is protecting the original. In that we can say it is not a problem, it is a benefit. However if the metric we measure something as a problem is whether or not it equates to the default state (in other words a happy mentally healthy individual), then other personalities would be a problem. Hmmm, I took a meandering way of saying Shallan's current status with her alters "balance" is not indicative of whether she has made progress or had a backslide. Shallan choosing to avoid remembering and using Veil to deal with it instead, is. Shallan is still shunting tasks off to her alters instead of learning to deal with them on her own. According to the information I posted, in order to re-intergrate the alters, Shallan needs to learn to gain more agency in the tasks, not less. I don't think we have seen enough yet to know if she has gained or lost agency. Just she still relies on her current personas to handle it. That also does not preclude additional personas from arising. She is just at a total of three at this time.

True the biggest threat to these airships is cutting off the signal from their engine, but then that would be an issue for transport ships just as much as for combat ships. Assuming the signal could be maintained and protected, then I think it would actually be more beneficial to off load the engine room than "be independent". You wouldn't have to worry about your fuel exploding. Wouldn't have to worry about the added weight from engines and fuel. Would not have to worry about resupply in transit. To my knowledge we have not seen spanreeds having to be refueled with stormlight have we? Even if they would, stormlight storage is theoretically far lighter than other fuels, and once they get the hang of producing perfect gemstones, they wouldn't have to worry about a depreciating storage. Your air force would be lighter and or could hold more than it would otherwise. That would be a massive boon in my mind for commercial as well as warfare. Unless you think I am trying to argue that it would replace windrunners and skybreakers entirely in the war effort? Because that was never my intent.

If you think about it, they essentially found a way to offload the engine room. So i would see subsequent advances focusing on miniaturizing the process. Depending on the direction they go and how they accomplish it, you could have a static building in a secure location providing locomotion for airships across the globe.

So there is a whole bunch of stuff that applies that I read, so I will spoiler it, and just bring up a few points from it that I feel are pertinent. For more in-depth, the spoiler tag includes the full details. 1. DID very rarely is fully integrated back to only one personality 2. Further personalities can be produced dependent on continuing trauma. 3. Goal of treatment is to handle coping with the trauma so dependence on alters is lessened leading to integration.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news in this sense, but it is going the DID route, which is why out of curiosity I began to read up more on it. WoB below: I know people who relate a lot to Shallan's arc due to how similar her personalities are to Dissociative Identity Disorder. Did you intentionally write her to be recognizable DID? Brandon Sanderson I did, but I shied away from it in the earlier books, because I knew I was going to be doing fantastical things, and I didn't want to be offering too much commentary on DID. That was kind of my worry. With Kaladin, I knew depression well enough from family members and things that I felt like I could be a very strong contributor to the conversation. But, I started with Shallan saying, "I don't know if I'm gonna go this route." But then, the further I went, the more I felt it would be irresponsible to not do this. And so, in the last books, I just bit the bullet, dug really far into the DSMV and into reading firsthand, primary accounts from people. We got a very helpful person with DID to be one of our beta readers for this last book. And I just did my best to present it accurately and to present the non-Hollywood verison of it. And so, basically, Oathbringer and Rhythm of War lean into it a little more than the first two books do, though that was where I was going. And I do have a working knowledge of Dissociative Identity Disorder, and did even back then. I don't think I did a terrible job, but I think it would have been irresponsible for me to go forward without digging in a little further. YouTube Livestream 13 (July 23, 2020)

Ah, my misunderstanding!

I agree but that leads me to ask, what would benefit Mraize in that moment by lying to Shallan about Ialai? I just don't see what purpose that would serve. Which is why I take what he says about Ialai being unstable at face value.

Hmmm, perhaps I should clarify. As I stated there is "primary" who is the main operating persona given the current circumstances and there is the "original" which is the persona which existed prior to the fracturing. Veil mentioned she had been spending more than a month trying to get kidnapped. Which means during that time the triumvirate has been primarily Veil. Primary does not mean controlling. Alters pop up in order to handle situations that the original feels they cannot. For more than a month, the situation presented was handled by Veil because Shallan deemed herself unable to, and Veil best suited. So Veil acted as primary. I am not saying Veil is taking control from Shallan. If a circumstance presented itself over a period of time that was best suited to Radiant, then Radiant would be termed the primary. That help? edit: also @scm288 just in case I wanted to apologize because upon re-reading my earlier post, I don't want you to think me defining primary and original as it proving or saying your theory is incorrect. I meant to say it could work within your theory or without, but I forgot to put "not" in the right location, so it may seem like I am saying your theory doesn't work because of that. Hmmm, that may complicate things further, but hopefully it was clear enough. Thanks!

The oathgate platform in kholinar was physically present on the cognitive side. Urithiru has 10 such platforms, and I think given some of Urithiru's potential mystical nature, more of the tower itself could also be physically present. Would make sense to me. A location for spren and other cognitive travelers to stop off at to speak with radiants such as elsecallers. So although given that it is in the mountains which should mean it is a deep ocean in the cognitive, I would imagine a city like bastion with a harbor is present in its place in the cognitive realm.

Not sure it is a simple matter of unlocking an oathgate to transfer from physical to cognitive realm as the Thaylenah oathgate had been open for some time, but the spren of the oathgate still wouldn't allow Shallan and Co to cross over due to their promise. So I think it is more likely that either Jasnah or another elsecaller would transfer people over, or Dalinar opening up the perp again. Which is why I suggested Urithiru which I would imagine over the year time they had fortified both physical and cognitive means of entry due to what they saw happen in oathbringer.

i think that is a common misunderstanding on the part of people. In the stoneward description they mention members tend to fight. However people forget people all assume windrunners only fight yet Syl's prior knight largely stayed away from the battlefield. So just because a certain type of spren may tend to pick the martially inclined does not mean pacifists would be excluded. Just their path through the oaths would be unique to a degree. I personally maintain a pacifist could successfully be a member of any order and fully advance through all the oaths regardless the orders dominant leanings.

Although I recognize that Ialai and the Sons of Honor could be a main theme in this book, I have a theory that many may not like that I think is a real possibility: The issue with Ialai is just at the beginning and will be quickly resolved. The reason I say that is no where in both synoposises that we have seen has anything about Ialai been mentioned. In fact the main goal of Shallan and Adolin as per the back of the book is something that has no connection whatsoever to Ialai. Now I suppose it could be reasoned she had some how a hand in honorspren refusing to bond more radiants, but I dunno. I feel like this was just an intro to a mission that had been largely taken place off screen during the year between books, that is nearing its resolution so we can know what Shallan has been up to all this time. Just like Kaladin with Hearthstone and Lirin. He has been going back and forth between the town and Urithiru, and now these opening scenes are the resolution to that. TLDR: I think Ialai is going to act like the opening minor villain in the book that Shallan takes out and then goes off to the main plot line for her in the novel.