Pathfinder

I will attempt to clarify one more time and then leave it be so I am not beating a dead horse. 1. My original discussion with you was not whether or not Shallan and Adolin would or would not be grouped together. It was to say that the information presented (at the time of our discussion) does not intrinsically mean they are grouped together. They can certainly be revealed to be (and have been) to be together, and still not negate my point. I am not implying your statements are ludicrous, I am using hyperbole in this case to illustrate the point I am attempting to make. If you said the oranges will taste sweet and juicy because their color is orange. Then we take a bite out of them finding out they are sweet and juicy, does not mean it confirms the reason is because of the color. Unfortunately I have not had the chance to cover all your posts with the degree i should so I have chosen to refrain from commenting on them till I can. So to sum up point 1. I at no point said Shallan and Adolin could not be together. I said the information presented at that time does not mean that is the only conclusion that could be derived. 2. Still going along with not trying to prove Adolin and Shallan are or are not together, my question was how could Shallan be a PoV in part 1, and still be on the cover which for most of the books involved a scene from part 5, which group 2 would not be in. Isilel pointed out there would be multiple climaxes, of which one is in part 4, and the other is in the epilogue, which would account for Shallan being able to be in part 1, and still not being in part 5. Further it was mentioned that it could just be the result of everyone starting out in the same spot, and individuals have gotten PoVs before without having been mentioned in the original outline. All possibilities that would answer my question. So to sum up point 2. Again at no point am I arguing Shallan and Adolin could not be together. I was asking for a way to rationalize what I felt was two pieces of contradicting information. Which was provided, and I am appreciative of. Hope that helps. Thanks!

I guess what I am trying to say, to hopefully clarify my earlier post is given this piece of information that Isilel provided, coupled with the part one mention, how does this now apply? Which Isilel and Harbor offered possible alternatives to. Hopefully that helps.

I gotta say, I personally really don't see this being the case. First and foremost, you don't speak about someone you love and care for this way: “Speak to your daughter,” Gavilar said, turning toward the door. “I believe I have managed to soothe Amaram’s pride. He might take her back, and her time is running out. Few other suitors will consider her; I’ll likely need to pay half the kingdom to get rid of the girl if she denies Meridas again.” She is "Navani's" daughter. Not his. He is trying to get rid of her, by his own words. That does not sound like someone doing it with her best interests in mind. Secondly, Jasnah is the daughter to the king and thereby a princess. Amaram at the time was a high marshal if I remember correctly. He is literally far below her in socio and economic standing. Jasnah marrying Amaram secures his future, not hers.

That is the thing. I was asking those that did believe both were true to explain their rationale on how could both co-exist. Also never said i believed one over the other or that it could be determined which one over the other it was.

Ah thank you. I have been unable to set aside the time to properly pour over the WoB regarding this to respectfully respond to chickenliberty as I mentioned earlier in this thread so I had not seen that WoB. Hmmm so part 4's climax is minor then according to that WoB. Makes me really wonder all the more now what the big climax is that Brandon had planned for all these years! edit: then again the cover could even be the epilogue climax. Hmmmmm

So then by that potential logic (not saying you are advocating this), then does that potentially mean Shallan is in group 3, not group 2?

So maybe I am reading too much into it, but Brandon doesn't say PoV. He says: "We have a line break here, with a quick Shallan scene, but we are not going to do that, we are going to jump right on to the Kaladin scene and read just a little bit more of that" So yes usually scenes with a character named I would imagine would be PoV, but he does not explicitly state that, coupled with Isilel's addition makes me wonder. Brandon did say it was a quick scene. Could it be just setup and in regards to the outline it does not consider Shallan in part one? Just throwing ideas around. Didn't someone mention characters not mentioned in the outline being mentioned in chapter headings in prior books? Or am I recalling incorrectly?

So you are saying the image posted by Isilel is inaccurate? Because it is showing it cannot be both. As in Shallan cannot "be" in both part 1 and part 5. That she is either in a brief portion in the beginning before they all split off, is in part 5, and therefore cannot be in group 2. Or she is fully in part 1, group 2, but cannot be in part 5 Not sure based on that image how Shallan can be fully present in part 1 and part 5 as I believe you are stating. Which is why I am confused. Edit: to put another way 1. If it is reasonable to conclude that shallan and adolin are in a scene at part five like every other cover has been, then they cannot be in group 2. 2. If it is reasonable to believe that shallan and adolin are in group 2 because shallan is mentioned in chapter 7/8 and thereby is in part 1, then she cannot also be in part 5 Hopefully that clarifies where i am confused. I don't see a way for both to be true at the same time. That it would have to be one or the other. Not both.

So i have a genuine question. First and foremost i am not trying to prove a point. As in i am not trying to prove shallan and adolin are in any group over any other group. Just taking two pieces information i noticed and curious how people would rationalize it. So here they are 1. A lot of people have said that the bulgarian cover of adolin and shallan confirmed they had to be together and that it is an image of a climatic scene at the end of the book. So that would mean they would have to be present in part 5 2. People have stated that adolin and shallan have to be in group two because its mentioned that she has a scene in part one. The image isilel just posted shows that: 1. Group two is in part one but not part five 2. Group three is not in part one but is in part five So are shallan and adolin in group two, but thereby are not in the ending climactic scene? Or are they in group three, having the climactic final scene but only show up without view points in part one?

I think the idea is like the scorpion and the fox (though there are plenty of problems with the tale, just using it to illustrate the concept). If a scorpion tells the fox to trust it, that it won't sting the fox, when the fox knows scorpions always sting, then it is kind of on the fox for putting itself into a situation to be stung. Now again, there is a lot more to the situation, such as Dalinar trusting his visions and misunderstanding them, coupled with their history, but the entire book Sadeas was crem to Dalinar and all he loved. In one moment Sadeas is suddenly buddy buddy and wants to be better? You can say it is best to look for the good in all people and etc, but at the end of the day Dalinar knew Sadeas's personality and history. Keep in mind, in no way shape or form am I trying to victim blame or say it is Dalinar's fault for the tower. I am just trying to explain why Sadeas can be seen as "honest" while Amaram and Gavilar be seen as "duplicitous". Also my intention is not to argue that Gavilar and Amaram are or are not duplicitous. You already well know how I feel on the subject. Just trying to explain why people may see things that way.

I don't think anyone is excusing sadeas's actions at all. Or at least correct me if i am wrong. I think what it is for people is if someone is clearly out for themselves and admits it, then its two fold. First, if you get screwed over by that person, that's on you. You should have known better if you trusted them, or they simply beat you because they are better at it than you. Further there aren't any self delusional excuses trying to make people thank them for screwing them over. Its blatant. Genuine in a way. Conversely galavanting around acting like sunshine on earth or your crem don't stink while being villainous is classically seen as repulsive. The deception is the worst thing you can do. Stab the person in the chest so you can look them in the eyes when you do it. Stabbing them in the back is cowardly. Side note that is one of my big problems with classic legends, that the hero is a big strong guy and the evil guy is the smart guy that had to use his intelligence to get where he is. But i digress Like i said, i dont think people are saying sadeas's actions are allowable or forgivable because he owns up to his villainy. I think they respect it to a degree because he doesnt claim he is something he isnt. So for gavilar and amaram, based on the info we have, people read it as they claim they do it for the greater good, but really they do it for themselves. Your cause can be evil, but if you truly believe in it, then the rationale can be understood and to a degree respected. But claiming high ideals when the reality is you are only using them to suit yourself is really reprehensible to some people. Now for my own little addition, totally recognizing others think differently, but considering amaram looked up to, and idolized gavilar as well as amaram was in gavilars inner circle coupled with the WoB makes me feel my theory on amaram being a narcissistic personality disorder all the more supported. Now i didnt write that to restart our discussions. Totally get and respect you disagree. Just i interpret the information that way. I understand you interpret it differently.

Not saying you will like this answer nor that you have to, but here are the WoB on how it works Questioner Where do gemhearts come from? Brandon Sanderson They grow naturally, just like your fingernails grow. Questioner Where do they get the resources? Brandon Sanderson The rain that falls on Roshar is [hard] water, full of crem that crystalizes. If you drink that water, it gives you the nutrients that you need to make gemhearts. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Questioner Is it only greatshells that have gemhearts, or do all crustaceans on Roshar have some sort of gem inside? And if it is only greatshells then are their unique decayspren related to this fact? Brandon: They're not only greatshells, but not every crustacean has a gemheart, at least not of the style that would be of any relevance to you. Some have the same sort of chemistry going on in their body, they're just too small to have it coalesce into a gemheart. And the gemheart is related to how-- particularly the greatshells, can grow to get so big. Salt Lake ComicCon FanX 2016 (March 26, 2016) Questioner I was wondering, in Stormlight, what kind of gem the [singer] gemhearts were, or do they just, do they hold Stormlight well? Brandon Sanderson So, this is a good question. This is one that people have been asking me since the first book, if they had one, and I've finally kind of confirmed it in book three. So the reason people don't think [singers] have a gemheart is it is milky white, and looks like bone. Questioner But aren't their bones red? Brandon Sanderson Their bones, well-- Their bones are red-- not completely. If you're going to pull out the bone, what you're going to see-- I'll explain it in the next book. So what you're going to do is, if you break open the bone, you're going to find this white-- It's not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it's marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there's a gemheart in there. And it kind of relates to some stuff in Dragonsteel that I'm not gonna get into. But you'll see in the next books. But there's a good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart. Questioner So they must not glow much then, I'm assuming. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, well, it's surrounded by bone. So it's a different special thing. We'll bring it out in the following books. It might not be the next one. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Saying this with total respect, as tone can be difficult to convey over text but again no, thats not how that works. As i cited earlier in WoB, the rosharan ecology was created by adonalsium and was fully sustainable prior to cultivation and honors arrival. There ecology was built around highstorms and bonding spren. Spren existed on roshar prior to honor and cultivations arrival. Cultivation the shard holder is not sitting there telling chasmfiends to breed, or bond with spren. Even if the power of cultivation (not the holder) did actually affect chasmfiends and singer bonds (which is doesnt because again, all of that was a thing before cultivation was ever a thing), the power even if it was completely shattered cannot be fully destroyed. So all the functions and coinciding magic systems would still exist. We have examples of exactly that and i gave you both of them. Scadrial and sel. They both literally show that. WoB showing adonalsium is the reason for rosharan ecology and highstorms Questioner You mentioned the ecology on Roshar, and also you mentioned that mostly the non-sentient spren predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. So my question is about the evolution of life on Roshar, and how essential the highstorms are to life on Roshar, how the plants evolved, so can we assume that life that is dependent on the highstorms predates the Shattering of Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson Um… You-- Questioner Can we correctly assume? Brandon Sanderson --yeah, *laughter* I'll tell you this. The highstorms predate, and there was a lot of natural evolution on Roshar, resulting in a lot of what we have there. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

I believe what they are trying to say is since a dustbringer is ruby red, then shallan as a lightweaver should be an off red color or a different hue to denote garnet

Yep, its the color Questioner With the gemstones, we know that the hue seems to matter more than the rarity. Is that somehow tying in to the colors for Warbreaker, and how that stuff works? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is tying in. Color will be a recurring theme, much as metal will be a recurring theme, as you see different magic systems work. In this case, the color has an affect on the spren and getting a spren trapped in it. Questioner So just the color itself? Brandon Sanderson Yeah the color is the important part. When I was researching Stormlight, I determined that color had to be the point. Because a lot of the gemstones I'm using are molecularly identical. Questioner So that was the best way to differentiate? Brandon Sanderson So this was the best way to differentiate. But I had already had this as part of the cosmere, that color and the way people perceive color and things like, that were part of it. But getting ten different gemstones that were molecularly different proved to be very difficult and not worth it. If you look, so many of them are just basically the same gemstone with a few impurities. Their crystalline structure is the same. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

Spren existed on roshar prior to the arrival of cultivation and honor. The entire ecology was created by adonalsium. Not cultivation. So her death would not be that catastrophic. Further death of shards don't work that way. The holder dies and the shard becomes directionless regarding informed choice, but all the things in motion remain in motion. The power itself was not destroyed. We have three examples of this Roshar Tanavast is dead. Yet surgebinding still very much exists despite the power of honor being shattered. Scadrial Sel So if the shareholder of cultivation died, things would continue on as they have, just there would not be a sapient entity consciously acting to resist odium

This portion Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself. Now just in case i also want to make something abundantly clear so i am not misquoted later. The highstorms have changed a lot since adonalsium first made them. So as i quoted, if the stormfather were to die there would be an effect, but it would not be a catastrophic planet wide extinction level event.

Highstorms and singers were created by adonalsium long before honor and cultivation was a thing. Honor created the stormfather via a splinter of his power. So the highstorms predate the stormfather. So if the stormfather ceases to exist there would be an effect but not a planet wide extinction. All associated WoB below: Snote85 Have the Highstorms always existed on Roshar? The excerpt that talks about how one of the Bondsmiths had resigned himself to fight the Voidbringers but woke up and had a new idea, one that had to do with the nature of the Heralds themselves. Then, inside the Oathgate, we see "mythical creatures" like lions and such. It would make sense that the world might have been different when the KR were last around. So much so, that if the Highstorms "Opposite" is the Everstorm and it was made by followers of Odium, then the Highstorm would have been made by followers of Honor. Brandon Sanderson Highstorms did predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation on Roshar, but it has evolved much during the thousands of years since that event. It was not created by followers of Honor, but there is more to this story that you'll find out as the series progresses. General Reddit 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017) Questioner Pre-Shattering magic in books? Brandon Sanderson Let's see. I would count the highstorms as that. Highstorm predates the Shattering. Now, the highstorm has been changed dramatically by certain events, but the highstorm does predate the Shattering. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017) coltonx9 Do the singers predate the highstorms? Brandon Sanderson The singers and the highstorms are-- The highstorms-- Let's say no. Trying to decide which one came first. They were created, right? But the highstorms were created as part of Roshar, as well. The highstorms predate humans arriving. Highstorms predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018) Questioner Seons are Splinters? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Splinters of Devotion. Questioner Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall... Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather? Questioner The Stormfather. Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself. Questioner Does he have another Splinter? Brandon Sanderson So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) Questioner We were talking that it's kind of a shame that Dalinar doesn't have his own "real" spren. I think it's an upgrade, is there a way I should think of this? Is it a cool thing or a bad thing? Brandon Sanderson This is a very cool thing, but it's also a very dangerous thing. Questioner Well [the Stormfather] controls the highstorms ... follow-up question: if he dies, does that affect the spren? Brandon Sanderson Dying, as long as the oaths are not broken, does not affect the spren in a very terrible way. There are effects. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Funny you should say that because just as you posted that I had another idea that would negate the entire problem to begin with. As I said eruptions can be predicted. The issue in our world is the scope of the measures that have to be taken (takes time to set up even moderate barriers, and there is a limit on how much water can be attained and how quickly it can be brought to the location). But all of this can be prevented. Imagine you know an eruption is coming like Mount St. Helen as you mentioned. Earthquakes telegraphed the revival of that volcano for a solid two weeks before anything began to escalate. So imagine you now know a volcano is going to potentially erupt and you have the full access to all the surges from the radiants. Have stonewards use tension to strengthen the sides of the volcano facing population centers with periodic vents dotting its length. Use soulcasting, cohesion, and division to create cracks, fissures, and tubes all along and at specific points of the side of the mountain pointed away from population centers creating a release valve and path of least resistance to direct the explosion and debris away. I would also imagine (though I am not a vulcanologist) that if we in the modern world had ways to divert lava flows, and create targeted release valves into the rock to prevent the growing pressure like the radiants could using their surges, we could eliminate the danger of volcanoes altogether.

No problem, but after reading up on pyroclastic flows, I believe the rationale I presented still stands. The flows like water follow the path of least resistance. "Just like a flash flood, it will naturally flow into dips and valleys." Stonewards, WIllshapers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Skybreakers all have landscape altering abilities. Explosives, barriers, trenches, and water have shown to successfully battle, mitigate, or slow. The main limitations on these is usually the availability, the quantity, and the time. All of which is handled by radiants. Stonewards, Willshapers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Skybreakers can throw up massive barriers and trenches to divert and slow its progression. At its core, a pyroclast is just a super heated toxic gas laden landslide. Rob it of its momentum, and you rob it of its speed and devastation. Plateaus would be another way. of robbing it of its momentum. Instead of giving it a shear angle to plunge down, create tiers that it will slam into, roll over, and then slam again, and again. Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly elsecallers and lightweavers overhead to soulcast massive amounts of water to drop on it. So to sum up this information in how it would play out in my mind is this (list form for organization) 1. Teleport in teams of radiants to create plateaus that end in a trench right in front of a barrier that then leads to a gentle slope, that again leads to another plateau that leads to another trench that is in front of another barrier. Each tier robbing the pyroclast of momentum, rocks/boulders, and heavier than air gasses sitting in the depressions. 2. In addition to these plateaus, the sides will have sloped barriers to gradually curve it away from population centers. 3. While the pyroclast progresses, the windrunners/skybreakers fly elsecallers and lightweavers high overhead dropping gallons of water to cool the temperature and soulcast the gasses to air Eruptions can be predicted. Pyroclastic flows can be anticipated. All it would take is the knowledge that a volcano is due for an eruption to put all of these in place to begin with, or position the radiants to be ready to enact it. Yes pyroclasts move very quickly, but they still have to travel the distance to reach these populations centers.

Actually I feel the radiant surges would make a volcano, or storm a non-issue. Storms are constant on Roshar so I won't even bother mentioning all the things they could do because we already see it in the book (storm shelters, wind breaks, healing, food supplies). So that brings volcanoes. Like water, lava flows the path of least resistance. Using hydrology analysis, the path can be predicted. Then you have a bunch of elsecallers soulcasting the lava at a distance to harmless air (we already know it is possible to soulcast moving water due to the frozen waterfalls mentioned in Kholinar) to give the stonewards and willshapers time to create channels to direct the lava flow away from populated areas. No property damage. Progression (truthwatchers and edgedancers) can heal anyone with issues from toxic inhalation from the gases or ash in the air. Finally elscallers and lighweavers can soulcast the fumes and ash to breathable air. Entire catastrophe managed without a single life or building lost and quality life is maintained. That isn't even counting the bondsmiths super charging the radiants to make their surges more effective, the windrunners and skybreakers acting as mobile support, the elsecallers and willshapers teleporting vulnerable townspeople away, and bringing in radiant support. The only order I can't think of a task for is dustbringers, and they may very well create the channels faster than the stonewards and willshapers with division. Perhaps the dustbringers would make the channels, while the stonewards and willshapers shaped them.

Some context on Amaram: Coachdorax Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin? Brandon Sanderson I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being. YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

Tinfoil theory, what if Gavilar is trying to become a herald, but by taking it over from an existing herald? The megalomania evident would make complete sense to me that he would think he could handle the torture or take over where the existing heralds failed. He would then be eternal, and could rule the world through the church. Kalak would like this, because it would mean he could give up the burden to someone else. No more guilt or responsibility. Its someone else's problem.

Don't forget the new lightweaver stargyle.

Hemalurgic spikes allow for being placed in areas that would normally kill you, but results in opening you up to manipulation by Harmony. If you aren't doing it for hemalurgy, and doing it to just keep the objects in place, you need healing. Otherwise all you have is gaping wounds that will get infected. Locations of the body that are pierced, are pierced in such a way so as to allow the skin to heal over and seal the wound. If however you do like Miles and have a brace that drives a spike through your bicept, or forearm, you would not last very long. The mention in BoM that they learned how to steal the ability for health while keeping the individual alive. So theoretically they already had someone or someones for that.