Pathfinder

See I have no problem with this definition except for two things: 1. From my understanding of the books, all the highprinces except Dalinar fit. They all knew what they wanted and what they wanted to accomplish. They all worked within the system and with other countries to accomplish it so that pertains to allies and enemies. And of the instances we see closely (namely Sadeas and Dalinar), Sadeas isn't side tracked by smaller concerns but at the same time accounts for them, meanwhile Dalinar loses focus to police the surrounding area of the shattered plains, care for Elhokar's feelings, and believe in his visions. Now again, ultimately all of that makes Dalinar a good person, but as pointed out by Sadeas, Elhokar, Adolin, and Dalinar's own officiers, they are politically damaging. Policing the surrounding area of the shattered plains makes them safe for the general populace, but severely weakens his ability to protect his constituents. Caring for Elhokar's feelings makes him a good uncle, but a horrible politician because using kid's gloves with him resulted in Dalinar being outmaneuvered and almost killed including almost wiping out most of his constituents. Believing in the visions turned out to be best for the whole world, but politically, as Adolin pointed out, it was leading to the fall of his house. Meanwhile every step Sadeas took enriched his princedom, fortified his influence, and protected his people. 2. The next response is as you have mentioned before, will be the goals. But what are "acceptable" goals as presented are very subjective. Which is why I believe this will then result in rehashing previous statements. You will say Sadeas does not have the proper goals. I will say what constitutes proper goals. That then lead to the discussion of what is proper or not. Which then leads to a moral/ethical sense, which I believe (and you seem to agree based on your prior post) is not intrinsically related to a "good" politician. Which then leads to defining what a politician is, which then brings us back here again. So once again, I am saying I am good. Not going to reply further. Good luck!

Totally understand and interesting thought, but even with savantism, once the power runs out, its out. When spook ran out of tin, he was blind as a bat without it. When a savant pewter thug runs out of pewter, he or she drops dead. I don't see Miles having all his metal minds removed, thereby removing his access to his power, resulting in his healing lasting longer than it would normally. But at this stage we don't know how gold allomantically savants would function, nonetheless feruchemical savants due to compounding. So could be.

They were allied in protecting Elhokar, but not otherwise. Sadeas frequently used his success on bridge runs to politically out maneuver Dalinar. If your definition of a politician is successfully accomplishing your goals, then Dalinar is horrendous, while Sadeas is amazing, because time and again Sadeas either outright prevented Dalinar's goals, or twisted them to serve his own. Huh? That is not how the alethi system works at all. No one thought less of Sadeas regarding the shardblade except the bridgemen. Who are individuals who had absolutely no say on Sadeas's position, or ability to govern. In fact it certainly helped Sadeas because remember it is after that moment, that the highprinces began to chose sides. Either for Sadeas or Dalinar. And Sadeas had the majority with even the ones on the fence favoring him to a degree. Again, if you want to say who is "the good person", then yes we can clearly state it is Dalinar. But good politician does not equate a good person. In a perfect world it would. But in reality unfortunately it does not. Having the king name Sadeas as Highprince of Information to investigate Dalinar does not count as finding ways to circumvent limitations? He literally found a way to get the king to distrust Dainar, his own uncle, prevent Dalinar from attaining additional power via oversight rank, and attain the oversight rank to pretty much walk through Dalinar's camp and army carte blanche. Sadeas very much could have done what Dalinar feared and fabricate evidence against Dalinar. It just benefited Sadeas more to gain Dalinar's trust to set him up at the Tower. So if Sadeas would have failed regardless, and not been a threat to the Kholins, then Adolin murdered Sadeas pointlessly and all the arguing people have made that Sadeas's killing was justified because of the clear and present danger he exuded was false? Basically based on what you are saying, then if Sadeas was not actually a threat capable of following through on all the statements he made in that moment, then Adolin killing Sadeas was murder without cause. Honestly I keep coming back to I really feel you haven't provided a definition on what constitutes a "good" politician. I feel like you have changed it repeatedly over the course of the thread, and each time it has been rather vague. If you would like to say that the highprinces are not good and honorable people, then I completely agree. If you want to say the alethi system of governing is not sustainable, again I totally agree. Just I keep getting lost in your statement regarding a "good" politician. So having said that, I don't want to beat a dead horse. I have made my views pretty clear. So I will leave this thread, and wish you luck.

Miles not only had metal mind bracers, but had spikes as a part of them driven into his arms to prevent them from getting pushed by a coinshot. In addition when he was placed at the firing range, they had removed all his metal minds that they could check for and yet he still healed. Marasi reasoned that he must have concealed others in his body. Yet those too eventually ran out after enough shots. Vin was chosen by preservation because of what she would ultimately be able to do in the end against Ruin. Ruin chose her thinking to corrupt and take away Preservations main weapon and turn it into his own, like he did with the original prophesy. Wax was chosen by Harmony to help him battle the red influence over the planet. Below are quotes from Secret History and Oathbringer that reference two instances where both characters explain that the individual's "openness" enables investiture to enter and manipulate the individual. Both imply it has to do with strong emotion, though the stormlight is more explicit. Arcanum Unbounded - Secret History Page 329 Oathbringer page 1092

Regarding the question of whether a division user requires touch, i think the descriptions of the dustbringers either outright answers it or gives me a pretty good indication: "In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. " Every definition i have found regarding artillery both in the classical as well as modern sense involves siege weaponry flinging explosives long range. Nothing about abrasion speaks to me about enabling division to fly at a distance, so that causes me to reason that division as the surge itself can be used at range. Just like soulcasting (WoB confirm jasnahs ranged soulcasting is the result of her order just being really good at it and theoretically a lightweaver can learn to do the same thing with enough practice) so TLDR dustbringers are literally described as modern artillery. Modern artillery blows things up from afar. I think dustbringers blow things up from afar. Abrasion doesn't seem to affect that. So skybreakers should also be able to blow things up from afar

Personally that comes off as far to vague. Taking the shardblade for instance. In the alethi system military might equates political clout. For all of way of kings and words of radiance Dalinar could not move against sadeas because of the size, and effectiveness of his army coupled with his booming economy (gemhearts) and numerous allies among the other highprinces. Shardplate and blade are military assets. Without the blade, when the parshendi shard wielder showed up, sadeas had to frequently retreat because he could not face her with a mundane weapon. That means losses numerically in his soldiers, economically in gemhearts, and mentally in his constituency. Getting a shardblade for sadeas drastically changes all of that for the better for him. Compared to losing a group of slaves that he can easily replace is nothing. Neither sadeas nor dalinar knew kaladin was a radiant and what that would mean. Was what dalinar did a good thing to do as a person? Totally. Was it a sound political move? Not at all. And that is stated as much in the novel. That it is practically considered madness on dalinars part. Taking your example of LBJ, sadeas would fit while dalinar would be woefully inadequate. Dalinar for all intents and purposes was the acting king. He had the ear and access of the actual king that no one else did (and is mentioned grated on the other highprinces who had to wait). He could enact policy in the kings name and has done so. He has even commanded the king to make decisions and the king has done so. Yet sadeas and the other highprinces (like your LBJ example) still found ways to circumvent those limitations and still operate. Time and again sadeas accomplished his goals leaving dalinar floundering. The man ultimately had to be killed by adolin to be fully taken out of it. Adolin truly believed (and based on everything we have seen i agree with him) that sadeas, even with dalinar being proven right about everything, would still manage to out maneuver dalinar and take it from him. At that point, even with literally everything confirming and supporting dalinar (like the congress in your example), we are lead to believe that sadeas (like LBJ in your example) would be able to accomplish his goals and win out against dalinar. So again, i find myself repeating myself so i guess my thoughts are not adequately coming across. I feel i have done my best to convey them. So i will leave it at that. Sadeas and co within the system they are in successfully govern their states, remain in their position at the behest of their people, and keep their constituents happy, fed, and economically viable. All classic hallmarks of a successful politician.

Maybe if i frame it this way it will carry the point i was attempting to make better. Is the governing system the alethi employ faulty? Yes. Are there other systems of government that are theoretically more beneficial to the populace? Yes. Does that make the highprinces poor politicians? I dont think that is necessarily the case. Operating within the system that was in place at that time the highprinces were successful in securing their power, maintaining said power, controlling their lands, and keeping their personal economies profitable. This was so effective that the alethi were seen as a world power for a very long time prior to gavilar and that legacy kept the other nations intimidated long after gavilar was gone. I liken it to comparing a crow using tools and a human using tools. A crow can learn to take a stick and shove it in a tube to fish out a seed to eat. It can learn to drop a rock in a tube of water to raise the water level so the item floats up to the edge to reach it. A human can learn using tools to build a house, or a tv, or a computer. Does that make the crow a poor tool user? It used the system it had to the best of its ability and advantage. Democracy isnt inherently good just as other systems of governance are not inherently evil. It is just as plausible to have a benevolent dictator as a nefarious congressperson. That is why if the question is if the alethi are terrible politicians, then my answer is no. They are wonderful politicians, with the system they chose to employ. In this case, as it is said repeatedly in the books, Dalinar is the terrible politician. He is continually out maneuvered and on multiple occasions almost got his entire people killed. In a different system of governance he might be a wonderful politician, or he might get out maneuvered again with a whole other set of laws and rules. Just like the other high princes might be terrible politicians in another system, or learn the nuances to take advantage of that system of laws. So that leads what i think is the issue that has plagued this thread. What is the definition of a successful politician? A "good" person? An individual chosen by his or her people and maintains that status?(in other words does not get overthrown or voted out) An individual that provides for his or her people? An individual that wins against his or her political opponents? Because it looks to me like the highprinces hits 3 of the 4.

We know three things make you more susceptible to shardic influence or communication. 1. Strong emotion. This is not exclusive to insanity with kelsier and ruin. The other example is a stormlight spoiler. Let me know if you want to know and ill spoiler it. 2. Having spikes. 3. Having a strong connection to a individual/shard/etc. Spook is an example of this Wax had an earring which was once an inquisitor spike. Forch was insane. Miles was spiked and insane. Wayne i dont recall speaking directly to a shard. He has joked about voices but i dont recall a specific instance backed by actual occurrence. If i forgot, please let me know.

I have a very loose, with nothing to support it theory that Malata might be a double agent and turn out to be a good guy. If thats the case would you feel better about her representing dustbringers? Further, lets say thats not the case. Lets say she still remains on team taravangian. There could be still some events that take place that make her sympathetic or reasons to cheer her on despite being on the wrong side. Take szeth for instance. As of words of radiance there were a lot of people that didnt like that he was representative of the skybreakers. Same with Nale. But after oathbringer with szeth, and edgedancer and oathbringer with Nale, that did change some people's views on the characters. Some people had a very negative view of Jasnah from what we saw in Way of Kings and Words of Radiance but Oathbringer changed that view for them. So maybe the same could occur with Malata? Or she could be fully a villian through and through but a villian you love to hate or one you understand. In which case having an image of her would be enjoyable. Or maybe she remains exactly as she is, but does something so utterly epic and cool with division, we are left stunned and in awe. So i guess what i am saying is just because you feel a negative connotation with her now doesn't mean you always will.

Maybe this image will help to better convey what i am trying to say. Picture this individual but from the angle we see in the bondsmith image. So both sleeves are, to me, are short, just the left one is covered by a cloak (the colors of what you perceive to be the safehand sleeve match the colors of the cloak on her right). That is why, to me, you don't notice her short sleeve on the left arm. Because her whole arm is covered/hidden by what i perceive as the cloak. Now you are completely and absolutely entitled to disagree, but now do you understand what i am trying to say? Edit: found a better example in the woman in this image. If she was in a similar pose as the bondsmith it would appear that her right arm had a white sleeve while her left arm had a black sleeve but as we see its just her left arm is covered by her black cloak while the right arm pushes the cloak back revealing her white sleeve.

Personally i see it like the below image, just the character is more from the side which is why it looks like a sleeve when to me it is a cloak. Especially when the coloring matches the cloak on both sides.

Going on the premise provided, I would tell no one as I have no compunction to kill anyone. I happen to like my life with my home and lovely wife. Going on a killing spree to become faster, stronger, and smarter would only result in me losing the life I have and love. As I am the only one with the knowledge, then it would live and die with me. Now if I was not myself, then the risk would have to be balanced against the reward. If if was just some joe/jane schmo that got the knowledge, then in the modern world, he or she would get caught rather quickly. Increasing intelligence would help, but the mistakes made in the beginning could end the career before it began. If however the individual had already a level of intelligence, and lack of scruples, then considering hemalurgic spikes could be as large as a pin, and look like common piercings depending on how they are made, then I think quite a lot could be accomplished. Since the spikes steal attributes from individuals, then presumably the "smarter" or "stronger" the target is, the more oomph you would get out of your spike, so I could easily see it turning out much like a hunter, going for bigger and better "prey". First few spikes were from bums off the street. Then as intelligence and ability increase from the first few, more precise targets could be chosen, to then switch out the spikes. The increase in intelligence and capability could potentially keep the individual ahead of the law. This is one of the many reasons why to me hemalurgy is a very dangerous magic system.

So got two comments 1. If you look real close, i dont think her left arm is covered by a safe hand sleeve. I think its just her cloak. That one arm is out and pushing the cloak back while the other is at rest, and thereby covered by the cloak 2. I dont think the scene is depicting a shardblade being revived. From what we saw of the other one (wind runner and i could have sworn we also saw skybreaker), it looks like a general pose. Not necessarily a scene out of the books. So although it does seem they are taking characters from it, i dont think this is a "snap shot" of a real scene taking place

Honestly now I am getting very confused. The very definition you posted earlier also specified that "or other forms of power relations between individuals". If you continue just a bit further on the website you reference, it discusses how there are opposing views on what politics is. That some argue it is purely co-operation (as you are stating), while others state it is purely an exercise in power with some inbetween. Then further in the page, it mentions politics is in regards to the governance of society, and then lists examples of governments, of which dictatorship is included. If you then click on dictatorship and read up on that portion, it goes into the differences between dictatorships and totalitarian regimes. The focus on the individual exercising power over other individuals to set ideology and structure. I mean its all there. Right from the place you are drawing from. At this point I am at a loss at what is being discussed. The Alethi was a series of states ruled by military dictators, that exercised their power via alliances, and battles in the governance of their people. It is not what some people would view as "the ideal" government, but it certainly counts as "politics", it worked, and they were a world power for a very long time (prior to the desolations. That changed everything). Are you saying they failed at a democracy or a constitutional monarchy? Because that makes more sense to me.

I really don't think it is semantic, especially considering the webpage you draw your definition from literally includes dictatorship as an example, if you scroll a bit further down. The Alethi use their military might to enact political power. But I guess to each their own.

Your definition does say: Politics (from Greek: Πολιτικά, politiká, 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status. You can be a dictator, and still have politics. A group working together is not a requirement, but tends to be a feature. If we look up the definition of "power relations": " power is the capacity of an individual to influence the actions, beliefs, or conduct (behaviour) of others" Which I would say the Alethi count.

Sweet, then I wasn't crazy! So now we have a new lightweaver confirming that the windrunners aren't the only order expanding their roster. There are potentially enough new lightweavers to slip in a tuckerized character. Could we see some surpass Shallan in personal truths?

On Brandon's latest livestream, allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way at the end (literally the last two minutes), they mention a new character Stargyle, which is a tuckerization of Steve Argyle. While talking about the name being cool, Brandon says something to the effect of "he is a lightweaver by the way". I started to transcribe the portion thinking we had a new lightweaver revealed, but when I listened to it a few more times, I began to wonder if Brandon was just referring to Steve Argyle in regards to possibly quiz results. So what does everyone think? New lightweaver? Or just a misunderstood slip?

Thanks! edit: just realized it is now in RoW, so here is my post: In the Syl Interlude, she mentions hows she does not hate the shardplate as much as shardblades even though they are both "corpses" due to "attitude". That she senses "contentment". The reason I referenced this, is I feel it goes back to again I feel how the spren are gathered. If it is forcefully, then it is against their will, and so probably the fabrial would give off upset. But if they are gathered naturally, then the spren used in a fabrial could be fulfilling their purpose voluntarily, and thereby give off contentment. So the fabrial could still be made, and used, but do so ethically with the consent of the spren involved. That is my point/theory. I have quoted the portion I am referring to: "She rolled off the counter and zipped over to examine Cord’s Shardplate stacked neatly in the corner. The young Horneater woman was never without it. She was the first of her people in...well, a very, very long time to have a Shard. It was pretty. Maybe Syl should have hated it, as she did Shardblades, but she didn’t. It was kind of a corpse—well, lots of corpses—but not as offensive. The difference, she supposed, was attitude. She could sense contentment, not pain, from the Plate."

Then I will save my response in a document and when the thread is moved, post it. In the meantime, I do have a follow up question for @Chaos (thanks btw), I was planning to quote....something...... in my post when it is moved to the RoW thread. Can I quote it there? Or since it is from the newsletter, should I only reference it? edit: please disregard my query about quoting. I saw your comments regarding it in the first post of the thread. Asked and answered lol. So when this thread is moved, I will post my response, and reference the newsletter, but not quote it.

A reading from RoW i think offers additional commentary on this subject but naturally it is spoilers. I could either write it here and spoiler tag it, or create an additional thread regarding this in the RoW forum and link it here. Which would be better?

Personally I keep coming back to the means of attainment. I liken it to harvesting naturally grown fruit, versus strip mining an area. One preserves the integrity of the environment, while the other strips it down till nothing is left.

I think that might have more to do with how they go about attaining them, than the process itself. For example, if you look at the map of the cognitive realm, there is a note by Nazh that says spren "fishing" is seen as illegal. In WoB, this is confirmed (if I recall correctly, I will need to pull it up) to be using something that attracts the spren un-naturally to grab it. So potentially manipulating their choice in the matter? Some of this slides into some RoW spoilers, but consider how Syl views dead shardblades versus Pattern. Then consider how Syl views bonding humans versus the Stormfather. So I do not think it is necessarily indicative of the entire population or the fabrial process. edit: found the WoB Argent (paraphrased) Nazh writes that "spren fishing" is illegal in Ravizadth. What exactly is spren fishing? Isaac Stewart (paraphrased) It is the act of forcefully attracting spren in Shadesmar for your own purposes. For example, you know how when Adolin is genuinely afraid there, his fear attracts fearspren naturally? That's okay. But if someone were to engineer situations that would attract certain kinds of spren because they wanted to make use of those spren - for study, or other reasons - that would be "fishing". If spren have formal ethics, this would be unethical. Argent (paraphrased) So this has a lot to do with consent? Drawing spren naturally is part of how spren work, but forcing them to come, that's a no-no? Isaac Stewart (paraphrased) Pretty much. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) Isaac Stewart (paraphrased) He clarified that Nazh was caught spren fishing because he was trying to attract a spren to be his stooge and do some work for him. He got in trouble for it because he didn't know that was illegal. JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

As I said in the link, I think it is humane because we have already seen sapient spren bonded to fabrials before, and spoken with them. They were fine, and in fact missed being able to operate. The oathgate spren. All the quotes are in that link, but I can post them again if necessary. Further we know radiants that used such fabrials. I have trouble believing that high spren would suddenly now have a problem with something their radiants did in the past that they had full knowledge of for centuries. Tranformation, Transportation, and Progression fabrials all existed back then during the radiants dominance, and were regularly used without issue to their spren. edit: for example. If radiant spren took issue with fabrials using radiant spren, then why do we see in Dalinar's vision a radiant in full glowing shardplate using a regrowth fabrial? Or why do we see Nale, who we know is a fully oathed skybreaker, use a regrowth fabrial without issue? Or that the oathgates, that we know have fully sapient spren bonded to it, were used extensively by radiants for centuries? Why didn't their spren take issue then?

Wasn't really my intent to derail, nor take credit. It is a (or I thought it was) pretty prevalent theory that has been around for awhile. That the black spren is an elsecaller's inkspren and that the white one is a willshaper spren. The only kink in the theory is as you said, the white spren does not match the description of what we believe the willshaper spren look like. They are metallic while the oathgate spren is white. Though a new thought could be something was done to one of the inkspren to change it as such. Regardless it does not seem in pain to be fueling the oathgate, which was the original reason/point why I brought it up. They are spren. Oathgates are giant fabrials. They make it work. They seem happy to do so. Whether they are ultimately radiant spren or not I believe is immaterial because they are clearly sapient. They converse. Have intelligent and nuanced discourse. They are aware of changes in their environment and the passage of time. Their only regret is they cannot continue to do as they have and facilitate travel. Kaza does not get a sense of upset from the spren associated with her soulcaster either. Here are some WoB about the theory and oathgates in general Questioner 1 Can you tell us about Transportation? Is it like gates from Wheel of Time? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Elsecalling? No. But-- but yes. Questioner 1 *laughter* I meant, like, the whole-- Just the Surge? Questioner 2 Does it go to the Cognitive Realm, is that all it does? Brandon Sanderson It is the power by which they created the Oathgates... So, there is a little more to it than that. But yes, it's basically-- yeah. Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017) Boogalyhu34 Are oathgates fabrials that mimic the transportation surge? You have said that fabrials can copy all 10. Brandon Sanderson This is a valid line of reasoning, but I'm not going to say yes or no. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015) Questioner The spren on the other side of the Oathgate in Shadesmar... One is an inkspren-- I am guessing, no? Because there are two spren that grant the Transportation Surge so that would make the other a Willshaper spren? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Jofwu In Kaza's interlude, she pulls out her Soulcaster and kind of describes, what seems like a presence of a spren that's there? Is that similar to the Oathgate spren? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes. Good job. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)