Pathfinder

Typing on my phone so forgive me in advance for formatting or spelling errors. So i think the basis of the skybreakers is the real life legal system. I believe the oaths can be broken down into levels of that system. General on the beat cops, detectives, commissioners, judges, law makers. I will break this down in a moment but just to follow up on the oaths not changing, i see the overall oaths as laws as well. First you get general and as you progress you get more defined, specific. So first you protect those who cannot protect themselves. But that is still pretty general. What if the person is a bad person? Should you still protect them? Well i will protect those i hate so long as it is right. Well that answers that. But now the latest question seems to come to terms with when to versus when not to protect. We all have our theories but can we all agree it in some way shape or form might have a degree of this? So again being more specific. That is how (ideally) the law works. You cant start with "it is illegal to steal shirts on Thursday ". Then you get people who steal pants, or steal shirts on monday and when you try to prosecute them they say "wait, i didnt break the law. Its only against the law for shirts on Thursday ". So the law is it is illegal to steal. Pretty open catch all right? But what if the new person that has the item bought it legally from someone that stole it? They have the stolen item, so should they be thrown in jail? Well that is when we either change the law, add to the law, or have what is called case law. This still tries to keep as broad as possible while stoll recognizing the unique nature of the case and the individuals involved. I went into this because it then carries over to how i feel the skybreakers are broken up (originally, not the corrupted version). The squires are the academy recruits. They are under the tutelage of the higher ranks. The first oath knights are the beat cops. They enforce the law of the land. Their job is not to interpret nor alter the law. Their job (again this is ideally, so ideally good laws in place with ideally good trained people to carry them out. This is not meant to be a commentary on the real situation in the real world. Which is why again i say ideally because that was the original intent) to arrest. The second oath are the detectives. They still enforce the law, but their focus is more specialized. They have to investigate and delve deeper into the workings of a crime to find the right individuals to apprehend and bring to justice. The third oath are the commisioners. They have to uphold the law of the location they are in. They decide the resources put towards it. They maintain the policies in place to not abuse it (ideally). The fourth oath are the judges. They are meant to interpret the law. They are the ones that can say the law says stealing is wrong, but in this case since the individual in good faith did not know the goods they purchased were stolen, then the goods should be returned, the original person who stole it punished, and the individual who bought it be reimbursed in some manner to return them as close as possible to the state they were in prior to the purchase. Case law then sets precedent. Which means it can be used to reference in other situations and thereby becomes in a manner an enforceable law as well. Finally we reach the fifth oath. Where you become the law. Now you are the law makers. The individuals who have to (ideally) look at the world, its people, society, and culture to come up with rules that protect the most while doing the least harm. Now this still sounds overly rigid. What if a beat cop goes to arrest someone and thinks that person didnt actually break the law? Well (ideally) the rest of the process should exonerate the individual. If not, then the cop has to ask themselves three things. 1. Am i misunderstanding the law? If so, then by going to a higher authority in the ranks, the cop can be educated and return to enforcing the law. If the cop was wrong to enforce the law in the way they did, then the commisioner would punish the cop for their actions depending on the severity and circumstance (ideally) 2. If i am not misunderstanding the law, can the law be changed or adapted? Here could be an oath advancement moment. This is where the knight could advance in oaths to be a detective who seeks more info to get to the true cause of the crime. And advance further to the oath of the commisioner to make sure others enforce the spirit of the law so it does not harm people. Or advance further to the judge oath where they interpret the law in a more specific way, setting precedent that those further down the line will follow. Or advance further to the fifth oath, and make new laws that take into account this new information providing reform and advancement 3. Or deem the current system unjust. That by following it, the individual is going against their ideals and chose another system or code to follow. The law is trying to codify the human experience. Ideally it realizes this and its short comings. Humans are messy, complicated, and unique. There will never be a perfect law that is timeless. People changes. Culture changes. Society changes. And so too does the law meant to protect it. The law must continually evolve and grow over time or it will become useless and archaic.

I hope you don't think I am fighting you or such, because that was not my intention. So personally I interpret this differently. For myself, a political favor involves a political benefit in some manner. A president pardoning someone, or helping another get elected (as I type this I realize it could be construed as in reference to the real world, and just want to clarify it is not). Viewing it in that lense, for myself, what Jasnah did was not a political favor. What political advantage would it give either of them? (as you yourself pointed out). Stopping those criminals won't make Vorinism not treat Taravangian poorly. It won't make the lighteyes listen to him. However, Jasnah, as she understands Taravangian at the time sees him as: “Besides,” Jasnah said, “I believe you might have made Taravangian laugh. He seems haunted by something lately.” “You don’t find him dull, then?” Shallan asked, curious. She herself didn’t think the king dull or a fool, but she’d thought someone as intelligent and learned as Jasnah might not have patience for a man like him. “Taravangian is a wonderful man,” Jasnah said, “and worth a hundred self-proclaimed experts on courtly ways. He reminds me of my uncle Dalinar. Earnest, sincere, concerned.” “The lighteyes here say he’s weak,” Shallan said. “Because he panders to so many other monarchs, because he fears war, because he doesn’t have a Shardblade.” Jasnah didn’t reply, though she looked disturbed. “Brightness?” Shallan prodded, walking to her own seat and arranging her charcoals. “In ancient days,” Jasnah said, “a man who brought peace to his kingdom was considered to be of great worth. Now that same man would be derided as a coward.” She shook her head. “It has been centuries coming, this change. It should terrify us. We could do with more men like Taravangian, and I shall require you to never call him dull again, not even in passing.” “Yes, Brightness,” Shallan said, bowing her head. Jasnah does not see Taravangian as a political ally. She sees him as good man, advocating for peace and truly loving his people. She sees someone she respects and cares for being troubled and hurt by his people being harmed and he being powerless to stop it. To Jasnah, Taravangian has not only done her a good turn, but has risked himself to do it with no expectation of recompense. The least she can do is try to alleviate some of the things causing him upset: those men are off the street. The people of this city are that much safer. The issue that Taravangian has been so worried about has been solved, and no more theatergoers will fall to those thugs. How many lives did I just save? I find it interesting that what classically is the Socratic Method (or at least how I see Jasnah teaches Shallan) in such a negative light. But I shall continue on that with your further comment below That certainly is an interesting way to interpret things. Though I would say the fact that Jasnah at no point prevented Shallan from running to the authorities, nor attempted to force her own view on Shallan speaks to otherwise. The Socratic Method (if you already know what it is, this is not meant to educate you but define it in order to show how it applies to this situation) is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking. and to draw out ideas and underlying principles. The point of such a method, is to cause the individual being taught to come to their own conclusions via their own reasoning, rather than just parroting back what they are told. Thereby if Shallan ends up having the same thoughts as Jasnah, it is because Shallan has using her own reasoning and logic, come to the same conclusions. Jasnah never tells Shallan what she is allowed to think. All Jasnah asks, is that Shallan comes to those thoughts through critical thinking and research. By the end of the exercise, Shallan thinks Jasnah is wrong. Jasnah thinks Shallan is wrong. But states at the end of the day, what matters is that Shallan went through the work, and really thought on it, without someone else telling her what to think. The true goal of a scholar and a scientist. The pursuit of knowledge. Finally, Jasnah nodded, then returned to her research. “You have nothing to say?” Shallan said. “I just accused you of murder.” “No,” Jasnah said, “murder is a legal definition. You said I killed unethically.” “You think I’m wrong, I assume?” “You are,” Jasnah said. “But I accept that you believe what you are saying and have put rational thought behind it. I have looked over your notes, and I believe you understand the various philosophies. In some cases, I think that you were quite insightful in your interpretation of them. The lesson was instructive.” She opened her book. “Then that’s it?” “Of course not,” Jasnah said. “We will study philosophy further in the future; for now, I’m satisfied that you have established a solid foundation in the topic.” “But I still decided you were wrong. I still think there’s an absolute Truth out there.” “Yes,” Jasnah said, “and it took you two weeks of struggling to come to that conclusion.” Jasnah looked up, meeting Shallan’s eyes. “It wasn’t easy, was it?” “No.” “And you still wonder, don’t you?” “Yes.” “That is enough.” Here is a quote where Jasnah goes in depth on everything I just said. What was it that Jasnah wanted her to do with the information? Once again, she felt a stab of guilt. Jasnah was taking great pains to instruct her in scholarship, and she was going to reward the woman by stealing her most valuable possession and leaving a broken replacement. It made Shallan feel sick. She had expected study beneath Jasnah to involve meaningless memorization and busywork, accompanied by chastisement for not being smart enough. That was how her tutors had approached her instruction. Jasnah was different. She gave Shallan a topic and the freedom to pursue it as she wished. Jasnah offered encouragement and speculation, but nearly all of their conversations turned to topics like the true nature of scholarship, the purpose of studying, the beauty of knowledge and its application. Jasnah Kholin truly loved learning, and she wanted others to as well. Behind the stern gaze, intense eyes, and rarely smiling lips, Jasnah Kholin truly believed in what she was doing. One point of order here, is though yes Jasnah was the architect of the scenario by choosing to walk down that street, that at the same time does not mean she created that situation. The murderers at no time were under any compulsion from Jasnah to: 1. follow her 2. bring lethal weapons 3. surround her 4. attack her All those actions were entirely their own. Now I already explained why I believe she went to the ally. To stop people from being killed, and to cause Taravangian to no longer be pained at his people being hurt and being unable to stop it. But to continue with your line of reasoning, she could not have pressured the city guard to reform. It is not her city. she would need to declare that the Alethi nation are moving to take over the city in order to take such immediate form of reform. She could not just come in and tell the city guard it has to reform. The captain is connected to a powerful lighteyes. So powerful the King himself cannot do anything, so why should we believe a foreign dignitary could? Jasnah could advocate for change and reform legally, and through the proper channels, but that would take months if not years. During which more people would die, and she would be unable to pursue her research in trying to stop the end of the world. True she could soulcast food and water, but Kharbranth is not an impoverished nation. It uses the funds it makes from the Palananeum to fund its free health care and presumably other social works. That still would not change that the captain of the guard is protected, and that that street is not being patrolled and that people are being killed that walk it. So to me, none of that would be more effective given the circumstances than what Jasnah did. To me it couldn't be to test the soulcaster, because Shallan has observed Jasnah doing so on multiple occasions. She soulcast the boulder, she soulcast wine to a paperweight, she soulcast words onto paper, she soulcast paper to fire when she was done with it. Jasnah has already extensively practiced with her soulcasting and has shown such a level of precision that it surprised Shallan ( writing on the paper via soulcasting). As to testing Shallan's loyalty? As mentioned in a prior post, even a 1% chance is still a chance, so I readily admit Jasnah could be doing this. Jasnah could be the ultimate big bad evil at the end of the stormlight, and everything we have ever heard and read from Jasnah was all part of a master plot to mislead us all along till the great reveal. Totally possible. Just for myself, it is not plausible. We (albeit rare) do get Jasnah's PoVs. We see and here how she genuinely cares for Shallan. How Jasnah genuinely admonishes herself for seemingly failing with her teaching of Shallan (during Oathbringer as Shallan regresses). Her concern for Shallan, and genuinely wanting to try and be a better teacher to help Shallan. All from her own mind. Now I suppose Jasnah is making up these thoughts in preparation for some entity that can read minds, but personally I find that far fetched, So for myself, I do not think the entire occurrence was done to manipulate Shallan into doing what Jasnah wants. That is assuming she planned for that moment to occur at that moment and set up Shallan all along. Which as I said above certainly is possible, but for myself, based on everything else we are privileged to know, I believe it to be improbable and implausible. Jasnah is dressed beautifully, because we know that is a character trait of hers. Always presenting herself put together and in control. It was how she was trained and raised. She teaches this to Shallan on the ship when they leave Kharbranth, and Shallan having learned that lesson, uses it to save her own life after the ship wreck, and save the caravaners lives later on. Yep, I would agree those quotes portray a sense of history and a degree of Post Traumatic Stress disorder. Jasnah has been hurt in the past. However..... I believe it is a stretch given all the other information we have to say that is the sole reason she has done so, and she arranged the entire scenario to play out exactly as it did. Despite Jasnah's powers she lacks one crucial one: mind control. At no point did she coerce or force those individual to again: 1. follow her 2. bring lethal weapons 3. surround her 4. attack her But if that is the case, how did she rewrite it by having those men follow her, bring lethal weapons, surround her, and attack her? Presenting this as you have removes the agency of the murderers. They are not robots that she programmed to play out a role so she can come across sympathetic. This was not a stage play to rewrite how the story plays out where she gets the desirable result. Those men still had to act. They still had to choose. Jasnah traveling to that alley could have just as easily passed through with nothing happening at all. But those men chose to watch that alley. Shallan confirmed it was not the men from the bar earlier. So these individuals staked out the area, and were prepared with weapons. Their intentions were clear. The only variable in this case is who walked down that alley. Had Jasnah not, someone else would have, and they would have died. In some countries on Earth as well as some countries on Roshar, yes it is. There is the "battered wife" defense, which states that even if the individual is not in a clear and current present threat and kills their abuser, given the physical and psychological abuse the individual has ungone, a court will rule in favor of the individual. In Alethkar, an individual that has been wronged by another (Tanalan's son), can challenge the injuring party to a duel as recompense. And duels to the death are very much on the table. But finally, as you are going for the moral angle, this is not violence as vengeance for the abuse. These are not the same individuals that abused her. She is not getting vengeance against her abusers. She is however preventing the abuse from occurring to other individuals. As per WoB, Taravangian knew that Jasnah was a radiant already. If his intention was to recruit her, he would be at the invitation/overture stage, not the investigation stage. Happy to read it and glad you are enjoying the discussion. Not intending to end the discussion here, but I would highly recommend you read my older thread "Jasnah More than Meets the Eye". That thread delves deeper into Jasnah's character, motivations, and actions. I recommend the thread because I made the point of getting every quote that mentions Jasnah across all three books (WoK, WoR, O) and included those quotes in the post. The intent was that if people disagree, all the quotes are available and readily apparent to reference and discuss, instead of going on memory and colored personal recollection. The quotes can be objectively read by both parties, and then from a shared source provide different interpretations. I hope you do consider reading it, and I wish you well. https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/84071-jasnah-more-than-meets-the-eye/#comment-830297

So first and foremost, my responses are not meant in a sarcastic or snarky way. I know I am beating a dead horse by saying context, but again that is the reason for the responses. In many countries in the real world, as well as many countries in Roshar, it does. The fact that they were career killers and the crimes were recent/close together shows a high likelihood that if they attempt similar practices, the intent can be inferred as to what their desired result will be. The implements they were holding are important because whereas a bat, or pipe could be seen as having other functions, and have been used in a lethal manner at the spur of the moment or the intent be misconstrued, having the career killers brandishing swords and daggers whose only purpose is to kill confirms the intent clearly. Lethal weapons means lethal intent. Finally initiating the attack also confirms the intent which is supported by the implement used, supported by the criminal history. All of these confirm and validate the intent of lethal harm. Which by numerous real world countries and countries in Roshar, means lethal defense is allowable. I respect that you believe that. Personally I disagree. I believe based on the context of the situation, and the specific information we are privileged to know, the crimes would not have ended, nor would the killers be punished if she tried any other way. There are always unknowns. 1% chance of something is still a chance, but it does not mean it is reasonable to base decisions on it. There are a whole host of possibilities that could be. But I believe based on the context and the information we are privileged to know, those possibilities are remote, and not ones that are actionable. The information we have however, I believe is actionable. True. But it is a way to stop a criminal enterprise in a city where Jasnah is unable to stop it within the city's legal system. It is a way that she did supplementary to the main way she builds a better world which is through advocating the change in the laws across the globe. Using her money and influence to inspire people of all ages, races, and creeds to be treated equally and have equal opportunity to pursue their passions. Because it was never originally intended as a lesson. It would have occured with or without Shallan as she said: those men are off the street. The people of this city are that much safer. The issue that Taravangian has been so worried about has been solved, and no more theatergoers will fall to those thugs. How many lives did I just save? understand that I was trying to do good. I sometimes wonder if I should accomplish more with my Soulcaster Her actions with Aesudean and Amaram dispute this. Both instances she had plenty of opportunity and cause to kill them both due to "deep pains in her past". Yet in both instances she waited, and investigated further. Turns out in both instances, it would have actually been better had she gone through with killing them. Shallan when seeing Amaram first at Urithiru becomes enraged, but then thinks to herself that Jasnah would have advised and cautioned her to wait, take a step back, and find out more information. I too sympathize with her history and eagerly look forward to learning more about Jasnah in the back five. But I do not see anywhere in the information provided where Jasnah or I used her history as license and validity for her actions with the four murderers. She already listed rather extensively the circumstances that caused her to come to her conclusion. I wish it for her too, and given how far she progressed as an Elsecaller whose entire schtick is self improvement/betterment, I believe she has and will continue to grow.

Regarding context: (added quotes regarding the murderers. text is in blue and bold because I am copying from my thread "Jasnah, More than Meets the Eye") Shes used that wealth and privilege to attempt to change society for the better. She has advocated for equal rights, and against separation. And she has used those funds to try to improve the culture, as well as try to save the world from the apoclypse. Like all the other highprinces, and quite the number of lighteyes. She is using her position of power to try to make a better world. Never said she would. Actually the difference is the murderers have been murdering innocent people on their way home from a theater show. Jasnah researched the situation extensively to be certain who she was carrying out her own judgement on. An they were most certainly not innocent. On three separate occasions during the last two months, theatergoers who chose this route to the main road were accosted by footpads. In each case, the people were murdered. As I said, we are supremely privileged in this case because we know that is not the case. They are career killers. The have killed at three prior instances in the same location, the same way. The scene also shows the individuals trapping both women (so if they were some how justified in killing Jasnah, what about Shallan?). The scene shows all the men armed with lethal bladed weapons. And finally and most crucially, the murderer struck with his weapon first. So given this is now the fourth time this has occurred, as well as Jasnah picked that day at random (she had been intending to for awhile, and took the opportunity to do so), those individuals were not planning to kill Jasnah specifically. They were staking out the area for an innocent to kill and rob. On three separate occasions during the last two months, theatergoers who chose this route to the main road were accosted by footpads. In each case, the people were murdered. The frail light of her cloaked Soulcaster reflected off metal in the hands of their stalkers. Swords or knives. These men meant murder. You didn’t rob women like Shallan and Jasnah, women with powerful connections, then leave them alive as witnesses. Noise from behind. Shallan turned with a start to see several dark forms crowding into the alley. Other shadows were moving in front of them, from the far side of the alley. They grew closer, grunting, splashing through foul, stagnant puddles. There were four men around them. The men grunted at the glare, but shoved their way forward. A thick chested man with a dark beard came up to Jasnah, weapon raised. She calmly reached her hand out—fingers splayed—and pressed it against his chest as he swung a knife. That is what is supremely privileged regarding this screen. There isn't exaggeration, because we are afforded all the information we could need. What defense? As indicated earlier, Jasnah extensively researched this location and the crimes. These are career criminals. They have murdered 3 times before. They attempted murder on her person at no provocation from her. (see the earlier quotes) The murderers were not: 1. weak. they had weapons and have used them before 2. desperate. they had enough money and connections to bribe the guards to not arrest them or patrol the area 3. by rich people. A rich person was potentially helping them accomplish their goals “The city watch,” Jasnah said, “has done nothing. Taravangian has sent them several pointed reprimands, but the captain of the watch is cousin to a very influential lighteyes in the city, and Taravangian is not a terribly powerful king. Some suspect that there is more going on, that the footpads might be bribing the watch. The politics of it are irrelevant at the moment for, as you can see, no members of the watch are guarding the place, despite its reputation.” So their deaths do not turn my stomach.

So first and foremost, I would like to clarify that it was not my intention to portray the false equivalency of "person will die anyway, so it is ok for me to kill them". Also I do not think that was Jasnah's rationale either. Now that I covered what I didn't intend to say, here is what I did intend to: We are supremely advantaged in this case. Normally we would no where near this level of information. Normally (this is not political, and is not meant to reference any real life occurance) we wouldn't know for certain how the interaction came to be. We don't know the true motivations of the parties involved. We don't know the full account of the actions nor the thoughts behind them. We try to reconstruct it, but at the end of the day, we just weren't present. With this case, we do have all that information. We know: 1. These are career murderers and have killed multiple people in the exact same way multiple times before 2. These individuals were going to kill Jasnah and Shallan. Not only due to Shallan's impression of them, but because the individuals did in fact approach Jasnah with lethal intent, and attempted to strike Jasnah first. Only then did Jasnah touch the assailant and kill him. So we know for a fact what the murderers were intending to do and actively doing 3. The law has failed the city and its people. Even the King himself has been unable to get the guards to do their duty 4. the murderers have connections in high places. Places that supersede the king of the city. 5. We know the penalty of the actions these individuals have already taken, and continue to take So why is the "legal" result of these individuals important in regards to Jasnah's actions? Because apparently it wasn't even the King's decision to execute the individuals because the legal system as it stood was corrupt. The murderers with things as they stood were not going to see justice. As things stood, the murderers were not going to stop. As things stood there is no faith in a system to properly prosecute if the system cannot even properly protect and serve (again solely regarding this issue in the book. Not discussing current events). So Jasnah claimed responsibility and all it is heir to because as we see, no one else could. And they tried. The highest authority in the city tried. Multiple times. So for myself when it is "no one's place" to carry out the law, I feel Jasnah was justified in doing so herself. This probably can come off as trivializing it, since this concerns people's lives (though it is not my intention), but when there is something that threatens people's lives, and the powers that be do nothing, then it becomes a choice. To watch and pretend, or to act and fix it. I think based on the information provided, Jasnah was unable to fix it within the legal structure of the city. So she acted outside it. I totally recognize and respect that people can view that choice in various lights and opinions. I respect yours. I just hold my own.

The way I see it (and totally acknowledge it can be seen other ways), is if someone goes to see a therapist, they get out what they put in. If the person sits there giving one word answers, nothing is going to be accomplished. No progression. No change. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. For me, it doesn't matter if Elhokar was told he was chosen for radiancy, if he himself hadn't made the work and the growth. If anything it might do more harm than good, because it would satisfy his ego and cater to his insecurities. Potentially preventing him from the level of self realization required. How he could be a bad king if he was chosen by a spren to be gifted with great powers? He is royalty, lighteyes, chosen by The Almighty to rule. Naturally he would be "radiant". See what I mean? It is even "worse" because the order would be a lightweaver. The entire order requires coming to terms with greater and more personal self truths. From my perspective, someone cannot tell you your own deep truths. You have to learn of it, and face it yourself. So as I think this through and type it out, I think I could see telling Elhokar he was chosen to be a radiant might result in his progress slowing or stopping altogether.

So before I respond to each point. Just want to make clear not telling you, that you are not allowed to think it would have been better for Jasnah to have told them. Just providing what i believe is context that prevented her from doing so. Jasnah was working on finding proofs that the parshendi were the voidbringers enough that people would believe her. When she told Shallan her conclusions, she stated that she still needs far more proof to convince people to not only believe her, but to act on her information. Considering she genuinely felt the parsh were voidbringers about to bring the end of the world, she felt her research took greater priority than being at the Shattered Plains with Dalinar. Dalinar does trust Jasnah. He says as much because he always knows where he stands with her. Now having said that, he did not share his visions with her till much later, and she did not share her research till much later. Both for the same reason. Their claims sounded crazy and were ridiculed by it. So they both hid the information till they could provide something more concrete to back it and not make themselves and their positions vulnerable. Unfortunately Dalinar had less control of his situation, so rumors leaked out. She connected it to the radiants fighting the voidbringers which is why she was so obsessed with her research. To try and stop them from returning. Jasnah was also operating on the info she got from Ivory, which was that he bonded her contrary to what the other spren felt. Ivory was an outlier that bonded in defiance to the rule not to. She said it herself, she thought she was the only one till she met Shallan. Elhokar mentions it in passing regarding shapes that do not resemble jasnah's spren. When Shallan began telling Jasnah about her abilities, Jasnah assumed she was also an elsecaller. It was not till later that they realized Shallan was an entirely different order. Also consider this is information told across spanreeds using an intermediary to scribe them. That would leave information vulnerable when she hadn't known at the time it would have been crucial to Elhokar. Basically hindsight is 20/20 I don't think I ever said Kaladin was wrong to keep his radiancy to himself. However, I am focusing on Jasnah because that is the situation I have the most information to draw upon, since I did my thread focusing on all the quotes she is involved with. With Kaladin I would have to go back to the book itself and see. Jasnah on the other hand it is still fresh in my mind due to researching it. Ah one addition. We do not know necesarily that Elhokar would have benefited from Jasnah being open about her radiancy or not. In Oathbringer Elhokar was surrounded by radiants (Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah, Kaladin), yet that did not accelerate his radiancy enough to save his life. He was only going to be ready when it was time for him to be ready. When he reached out to Kaladin. When he opened up to Shallan. Then they were able to help. Even when surrounded by radiants, no one considered the figures he saw. No one thought that indicated potentially radiancy. As you said, Dalinar knew, yet that didn't cause him to do or say anything to Elhokar. Shallan is even from the same order as he yet it did not cause her to think to do anything. It was not until Elhokar began to grow as a radiant and seek help that anything started to change. So I do not think having done so in the past would have changed anything. But that is me. I respect that you disagree. edit: to elaborate, just in case for clarity I mean as of the time of Oathbringer when everyone is openly a radiant: Elhokar didn't say "hey guys, I have been seeing people in mirrors. You have little people giving you powers. Maybe that means me too?" Dalinar didn't say "Hey Elhokar, remember when you said you see people in the mirrors? Maybe it means you are bonding a spren like I did!" Shallan didn't say "Hey Elhokar, the guys in the mirror you have been seeing before I arrived at the Shattered Plains sound an awful like my spren here Pattern. Maybe you are a radiant!" Jasnah didn't say "Hey brother, now that everyone knows I am a radiant, Uncle Dalinar told me about the people you are seeing in the mirror. That could be a spren, you could be bonding!" There was a whole lot of space of time from the beginning of Oathbringer, till them traveling to Kholinar that had the information that Radiants existed could have helped Elhokar realize the mirror men were spren, I feel it would have by then. But it did not. So I do not believe having it occur earlier would have changed anything. But to each their own.

So a few things for context: 1. We don't know when Elhokar started seeing the spren. It could have been as recent as when we see it mentioned in the novels, which Jasnah has already been traveling and researching for some time. So she would not have been around to hear of it. Dalinar also did not seen inclined to mention it in their conversations. Just "oh Elhokar is being Elhokar". So she cannot help with what she does not know 2. We have WoB that part of the reason Jasnah kept a distance is so Elhokar would have one less shadow to live under (the other being his father, the "amazing" king). She understood he had a lot of pressure, and didn't want to add to it. However had her research required her to be around, that would have taken precedent. 3. As mentioned, Jasnah was not exactly in a situation where she felt she could be open about what was happening to her to her family. Last time she was thrown in a dark room, with the key thrown away. I would be a bit gun shy myself. 4. Radiants are seen as bad by the Vorin church, she didn't know who to trust, Ivory asked her not to speak of a lot of things (which is why she held back from talking about the recreance), and there is also a whole organization gunning for her head so revealing her abilities could be dangerous (Taravangian was actively trying to get her to reveal her radiancy, using the opportunity his endangered grand-daughter gave him to observe, confirmed via WoB) So all of that says, for myself, that Jasnah was actually being very prudent keeping her radiancy on the down low. Also add she felt very isolated, and alone. She had no one to share it with till Shallan showed similar abilities.

For myself, although Shallan is admittedly an unreliable narrator, I do not see it being plausible that Shallan would be in error of the basics of the legal system of Kharbranth. As a scholar, as well as simply a person living in a city, I would imagine she would have a basic understanding of what the process and penalty for murder is in that particular locale. Further, considering as per Sigzil, there are other nations with such inventive forms of execution as "has eyes of blue and red" or "the hog", I personally do not feel it would be a stretch that hanging would be the go to solution for a couple of murderers of affluent women (the path is well known and the shortest from the theater district, as well as notorious enough to reach the king's ears himself). So although I acknowledge it potentially, possibly could have plea bargaining (though I do not personally believe so myself), for myself at least, unless the murderers were still able to use their bribery or connections to get out of it completely, as per Shallan, I believe there is only one destination for these individuals. The hang man's noose. But to each their own.

Thanks! Still would have led to their execution assuming they didn't have a way to get out of it: The frail light of her cloaked Soulcaster reflected off metal in the hands of their stalkers. Swords or knives. These men meant murder. You didn’t rob women like Shallan and Jasnah, women with powerful connections, then leave them alive as witnesses. Men like these were not the gentlemen bandits of romantic stories. They lived each day knowing that if they were caught, they would be hanged.

Again my comments are meant to add context. See below: Again, the point of the exercise was not a lesson. Jasnah would have taken the action regardless whether Shallan entered her life or not (if the formatting is screwy, bold, or blue, it is because I am copying from my older thread "Jasnah More Than Meets the Eye" where I quote every instance regarding Jasnah to promote discussion) Jasnah leaned back, watching the city pass. “I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty’s hospitality. He doesn’t realize how much trouble he could face for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those …” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before. What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it? “Regardless,” Jasnah continued, “tonight’s actions came about because I chose this path, not because of anything I felt you needed to see. However, the opportunity also presented a chance for instruction, for questions. Am I a monster or am I a hero? Did I just slaughter four men, or did I stop four murderers from walking the streets? Does one deserve to have evil done to her by consequence of putting herself where evil can reach her? Did I have a right to defend myself? Or was I just looking for an excuse to end lives?” Jasnah was not concerned with witnesses because (list form because they are fun for me): 1. Shallan was a witness. Jasnah did not threaten, coerce, or take any action whatsoever to prevent Shallan from running straight to the authorities. 2. Like the murderers, Jasnah at no point made any effort to conceal her identity. She walked the length and was observed entering that location and that alley by multiple individuals (as per Shallan. I would post the quote, but then the list would become rather hard to read. If you like, I can add that later. Just ask). 3. She is the only individual not associated with the ardents with a soulcaster. A soulcaster she is open and notorious about owning and using. It would not take rocket science to link her to those individual's deaths. Although it is not conclusive, Jasnah presents a long list of information regarding the circumstances of those murderers, and also states that she feels she should be doing more with her soulcaster. So both of those combined, lends me to believe she researched the situation extensively before taking action (as we have seen her do so with Aesudean (I always screw up her name, the prior Queen), Shallan, Amaram, and so on). Once she was sure of everything she told Shallan, she took action. From her own lips, it appears this was the first, or among the earliest actions she has taken in this regard: “The city watch,” Jasnah said, “has done nothing. Taravangian has sent them several pointed reprimands, but the captain of the watch is cousin to a very influential lighteyes in the city, and Taravangian is not a terribly powerful king. Some suspect that there is more going on, that the footpads might be bribing the watch. The politics of it are irrelevant at the moment for, as you can see, no members of the watch are guarding the place, despite its reputation.” “If it helps you wrestle with your feelings, child, understand that I was trying to do good. I sometimes wonder if I should accomplish more with my Soulcaster.”

Interesting WoB. Those men could very well be funded by Mraize and Co. Or have no connections whatsoever. Interesting to hopefully read more!

This part (as in what I am about to say, not regarding what you said), is conjecture, but if they had the funds to bribe the guards with enough motivation to ignore their own king, I feel Jasnah would be concerned that the same benefactor or monetary leverage could be applied in getting them out of jail. Also, I could see the rationale being, Jasnah knows (as Shallan confirmed), that the murder's actions will only end them up at a noose. She was merely cutting out the middle man, and willing to take ownership of the ramifications of such. Not excusing her actions, just throwing out possible thoughts/conclusions she could have come to. True there could be a whole host of motivations, but speaking to the concrete knowledge that Jasnah was acting on, these men have killed multiple times before, and in that instance seemed to be under no duress in their pursuit of killing Jasnah and Shallan. They were not even covered, so made no effort to hide who they were nor attempted to accomplish their goals in any other way than murder. Again, not saying that excuses anything, nor warrants it. Just providing some context.

Been super swamped so will not be able to comment the way I would like to, but I figured I would jump on just long enough to add some context that I think is missing from this discussion. 1. Taravangian, the king himself has tried to stop these men on numerous occasions. He has spoken to the guards. Ordered them to catch these men. Unfortunately Taravangian (appearingly) does not have much power in his own city. The guards are bribed not to patrol. Whether it is from a weathy benefactor or not, remains to be seen, but one thing is certain, those men were never going to see justice legally. 2. The men surrounding Jasnah and Shallan had lethal intent. Shallan also confirmed they were no mere cut purses. The "prey" they hunted required the victims to be killed. They could not release affluent women unharmed especially when the men could be identified by the women. None of the men covered their faces. They knew if they were actually tried for their crimes, it would mean execution as per the law of the city. 3. Multiple killings have occurred there before. So these are career criminals 4. Jasnah did not kill those men to teach a lesson. Jasnah did it to help Taravangian who based on the knowledge she had on him at the time (a kindly peacemaker) she greatly respected. If anything she felt she was remiss to not use the powers of the soulcaster more to help people (her words). Shallan was ancillary. It would have taken place had Shallan existed or not. All of these points are quotable taken right from the book. Personally Jasnah does not have self defense because she went out and purposefully looked for those individuals with what amounts to a gun. However, in the circumstance she was in, given the world she is in, and given we do know what her motivations were (she said so herself), I think she was justified. But the earlier points I made were not to argue that. Please feel free to feel however you all wish. Just wanted to provide added context.

No problem. I only ask for time because it involves wading through 2 to 3 hours of audio per session. The arcanum helps because it is already divided into chunks, so hopefully that will expedite. Yep yep. The whole thing is up to artistic interpretation. The only one would be Whelan, and even then there is still artistic license (for example: some say Kaladin, some say Eshonai on the cover of Way of Kings. Kaladin's features in Words of Radiance. Jasnah's pose with her body twisted towards the audience, her floating in air even though she never flies, how the wall becomes bronze when compared to the book, etc). The chosen winner does not seem to show the storm as mentioned in the prompt, yet it won. One of the early sketches of one of the artists also includes Adolin with a sheath, while other artworks are missing one (as pointed out by Oltux). One sketch has a storm, shallan, but no overt sense its the cognitive realm. Another sketch has Shallan in a classic vorin dress, and no sword. Then the same exact drawing, but with a sword. Then another where Shallan is wearing a glove, while the earlier ones have her safehand covered like a good vorin girl. So many possibilities and permutations.

I was not referring to that. One of the artists stated that on Discord. I understand and respect if that is not enough for you, but Brandon also mentioned the process on his live readings. I believe it was the last or the one before that. Since unfortunately they have not been transcribed fully yet, I will have to pull up the portion, type it up, and submit it to Arcanum myself to provide the reference. If you give me this weekend, I will be happy to do so.

The winning artist

In our discussion between you and I, I think it would be best to not mention it. From my perceptive due to the nature of it, I do not think it adds anything nor is conducive for this discussion. But of course feel free to mention it in your discussions with anyone else. That is just my own opinion on the matter.

All the covers we have seen have the same prompt.

Shallan altered the size on a bunch of different occasions but initially it does manifest large. Regardless again, artistic license. The prompt was not "she needs a sword". It was not "she needs traveling clothes". The prompt was very open ended. It was shallan, shadesmar, storm. So the only concrete things in that cover is that shallan is involved in some manner. That the cognitive realm is involved in some manner. And finally a storm is involved in some manner. Everything else is open to interpretation on the part of the artist and on those viewing the art.

Sorry added a few more edits as you were typing, so I have added some things to my post As I said I will be happy to, and truly intend to, but this ironically is me being brief. I need the weekend to sit down and go over each reference individually and together, to adequately respond and give your post the respect it deserves. So please be patient with me. I only commented as I did regarding the "Adolin next to" because it had been present on my mind at the moment, and I did not want it to slip from my brain.

So again, I want to be really especially clear. I am not doing this to be critical, nor saying I expect this to be a scientific journal. Totally theorize and what have you. Enjoy. Have fun with it. Just across this thread you have asked for people's opinions on this. For myself coming into this, a lot of the stuff presented comes off a lot more loose to me than indicated. As you present (to me, again stressing this is not to belittle you whatsoever) this, it comes off as correlation, not causation. For instance: Spontaneous generation. This was widely accepted as scientific for a long time. Some materials give rise to spontaneous generation of various organisms. Leave rotting meat out, even in a building, and you will get flies. Thereby rotting meat spontaneously generated flies. Place rotting meat in various places and 9 times out of 10 you will end up with flies. You can even use different types of meat and you will get flies. Seems pretty fool proof right? It supports itself and is demonstrable. Till a scientist took two slabs of meat. Wrapped one up tightly, while leaving the other out. One produced bugs, while the other didn't. All other circumstances remained the same. It was through that, that they began to theorize regarding microscopic organisms and actions taking place out of immediate sight. Now spontaneous generation has been utterly debunked. The reason for this example (lol and this is me being brief of all things), is because I can say something is a fruit, that it is round, and it has a stem. You see an orange on the table. I ask what am I holding behind my back? You say orange because all of those things in your mind combine to confirm what is behind my back. I then pull out an apple. Each of those pieces of information could hint at an orange, but individually they do not confirm it is an orange. Further individually any of those pieces of information does not necessarily inform the other pieces of information. It could be a cherry, raspberry, grape, and so on and so forth. So my point is, at least how I read it, those tidbits do not lend credibility to each other to the conclusion you have made. I can provide numerous counter possibilities that hit all those pieces of evidence, and have nothing to do with the conclusion you made and they are all equally viable. edit: and regarding the "anonymous" WoB. For myself, if it is legitimate, then it should not be anonymous, and can show the source so it can be confirmed. Otherwise as far as I am concerned, it is heresay. There has been plenty of that over the years. People recalling WoBs that they could swear exist, but via the Mandella effect, never existed. So that is why I prefer WoB from signings, or images. To be clear, I am not saying you are duplicitous. Nor am I necessarily saying the individual who presented it is duplicitous (though I will admit I am curious why all the cloak and dagger). I am just saying I would prefer more openness personally. edit 2: Sorry one more quick point. Lets say the other evidence as you present ends up being right and it all plays out exactly as you said it would. That still does not mean that the "mysterious" WoB was true or real. It could be utterly and completely fake, but validity is assumed because it happened to be lucky and be right. Regardless whether it was made up, or gospel truth. Again, correlation. Not causation.

As Jofwu said, the prompt was the same across the board. Any differences is artistic license. And as jofwu stated, it was the same prompt across the board. Anything else is artistic license. The artist could have thought to represent Maya, or not. We have no idea. And if we are using artwork so concretely, then it could just as easily be maya, since in the UK version, Shallan is holding pattern (due to obscene size of the blade) It is the artists interpretation of what they think Shallan would be wearing. Two other artworks place her in two other outfits. So I don't think it confirms what her purpose is based on her clothing. That is just my own understanding. To be clear I am not saying people can't theorize or come up with things. Just I don't feel we can really rule anything out by proxy. In other words, could someone say hey maybe it is a dress for travel? Sure! But I don't think that confirms that it couldn't be a sudden travel without planning, because frankly the information does not confirm it couldn't be. As jofwu showed twice, apparently yes as that was the prompt. For all we know Shallan was on a mission the entire book away from Adolin, and they meet up at the end to travel to a new location via the cognitive realm. Just like how at the end of words of radiance, everyone ends up at Urithiru. Nothing about the cover says they have to have spent the entire book in the cognitive realm. All I am saying is it does not preclude other possibilities. Because the prompt mentioned it.

Personally I am highly wary of taking "anonymous" information from a "personal collection". I could claim that Brandon personally told me there would be purple elephants. Doesn't make it true or false. edit: sorry had a big project. Will go through your posts more in depth this weekend. Also I really want to stress I am not being critical of you, nor saying you are wrong to theorize as you have. I just disagree with the conclusions derived from the information. I personally think a lot of it is a lot more open ended than presented. But that is my own reading of the information provided.

@ChickenLiberty I have just started going through all your references, and will need time, but while it is on my mind, I did have a comment regarding one of them. This WoB: JoyBlu's Friend I want to ask Brandon if he plans to write how Adolin feels next to Shallan, as we never get Adolin's viewpoint when it comes to their relationship. I thought it was missed. Brandon Sanderson Tell them that I do plan to do some of that. Orem Signing (March 16, 2019) If you read this WoB coupled with the other WoBs from the same individual, I do not believe the WoB means that Adolin will literally be standing next to Shallan when we learn how he feels about Shallan. The individual asked on numerous occasions how Adolin feels regarding being surrounded by radiants, being married to a radiant and feeling inadequate when compared to them, or his father. So I take "next to" as in regards to his stature with her, and his relation with her. Not it being confirmed he has to be standing right next to her when we get his feelings. But that is my take on it. I will go fully into the rest probably by the end of tomorrow.