Pathfinder

So I was hesitant at first to write this, but then again, everyone is saying their personal opinion on how they view Adolin, so why not right? I feel I have more of a middle of the road view of Adolin? So on one hand I do not see him as a happiness pump (I have been binging "The Good Place", so if you are curious about the term, it comes from there). On the other, I think the whole is a "main character", is not a "main character" is problematic. We know who are the three big "guys" are. Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan right? We can all agree on that? Blurbs on the book, words from the author himself, and plain and simple the books itself all show they are the focal points. They may come back and forth into and out of the foreground, but the first five books are definitely about them. Can we all agree on that? The back five will still have some of the same characters (those that survive), but will mainly focus on Renarin, Jasnah, and the heralds. We got a whole lot of info on that right? Can we all agree on that? So regardless the definitions of "main characters", or the number of "PoVs" or the "depth of characterization", we know the basic formats of the books (understanding there can be and have been tweaks here or there such as shifting from Eshonai to Venli and etc) right? For myself, and why I see this as "the middle ground" (not meaning to imply anyone is extreme, nor that my view is any more reasonable or valid), is I kind of see Adolin outside of all of this terminology. I just like to read him as a character in the stormlight novel. No different than Teft, or Rock, or any other character. And before it is stated "those are secondary characters! Adolin is a main character!", in a book with so many "main characters", is anyone really "main" by any definition? Which is why I said earlier what characters are the focus of the novels. It avoids the whole laden meaning behind "main" and "secondary". It just covers who is being "focused" on. For myself, that opens up the narrative for Adolin to be based on whatever information we have, instead of trying to fit a "role" and trying to define whether or not he was written to fill said role. So if someone feels the information in the narrative leans towards Adolin reviving Maya, then it does not matter if he is a "main" character, or character number 143. They believe based on the information they have read, Adolin will revive Maya. If Adolin does revive Maya and it is not as lengthy, or in the manner they like? Then they just didn't like it. And that is totally fine and understandable. Just the same in the reverse. Hmmm, to avoid rambling further TLDR: I like reading the character based on what we have and trying to understand that. I guess to each their own.

So first I just want to say I did not post that to try and sway you to my side of thinking, or to try to say you were wrong and I was right. I only explained my theory in spoiler tags because @ftl asked me to. You can totally disagree and I wish you luck! But to respond to your question regarding my theory, that was my point. The spren did know their knights were going to kill them, and based on the information I referenced, I feel were powerless to stop them. The bond needs both knight and spren to agree to break it, for the spren to survive after. If the knight intended to kill their spren, then the spren could not break the bond and save itself because that very act would kill itself anyway. Knights so long as they truly believe in what they are doing is in line with their oaths, will have their powers. And finally knights can break the first oath just by walking away from it and kill their spren. So what I posit is that the knights decided to kill their spren, against the spren's wishes. They went to whatever location they decided to do it at, and made the conscious choice to walk away from the first oath, killing their spren. That I think it is more of a stretch for myself, that a group of bonded spren could keep the knowledge that "they were in on it" a secret from the rest of spren society. But to each their own. So just to clarify my theory, and I will do so further on, but I absolutely think Adolin's actions regarding Maya has strengthened what I call the faux bond (the bond with the dead shardblade). That strengthened bond does not heal nor revive Maya, but creates the stronger link/scaffolding that Dalinar can use via his connection manipulation and investiture. Basically Dalinar can manipulate investiture regardless who it is Connected to (as we see when he strengthens Shallan's illusions). So basically what I am saying is, Dalinar would "fill in" the space torn out of Maya with investiture, using the strengthened faux bond as a guide, and term the new investiture "Maya" via connection, thereby restoring her. So my answer has to deal with an excerpt from Rhythm of War that was released in the newsletter, so suffice it to say that will have to wait till it is released in the "wild" Totally respect that is where you are coming from. I disagree, but I wish you luck! Could very well be. Regarding my theory, it is because as per WoB, breaking their oaths resulting in killing their spren was pretty much never heard of before. When the knights broke their oaths, there were no other bondsmiths, and Melishi could have very well been part of the decision for all we know. If my theory that a bondsmith is needed to revive a spren bond, and there has not been a bondsmith in years and years, then that would qualify for it being thought impossible. They never experienced spren death like that before, and the only way to do it, wasn't even around any longer to test/check. Especially since it looks like the only spren that could produce a bondsmith were so pissed at the humans for doing what they did. But I could totally see Dalinar's now bond with the stormfather connected to Tanavast's cognitive shadow being the bit extra that never was before, resulting in Dalinar able to do so. So as I said above, I totally feel Adolin has strengthened the bond. In my opinion, just like Dalinar did with Oathbringer. So I believe Maya saving Adolin reflects the strengthening of the faux bond, not actual "healing". However I think it should be stated and admitted that we know that dead eyes naturally always go to where their sword wielders are. That does not speak of any particular devotion or connection with the wielder. That we have never seen how a dead eyes interacts with their sword wielder in the cognitive realm. So for all we know, what Maya did could be completely and perfectly natural for a dead eye to act with any wielder. That the moment mentioned, is not extraordinary, or unique whatsoever. Basically the moment where Maya saves Adolin could just as easily have meant nothing for all we know. I do not think that is the case (as I explained above), but I acknowledge the possibility that Maya saving Adolin being meaningless could be just as possible.

Been swamped and still am, so don't have as much time as I would like but I will reference the basics of it in the spoiler below:

Not to be nitpicky, but there is a host of ways to gain that kind of information without having to be able to identify the spren. I was referring to the oathgates having giant spren in the cognitive realm Thanks!

Hmmm, could be. I am still of the personal theory that a Bondsmith forming investiture with connection would heal what was ripped out. But your theory certainly has merit. i wish you luck! We have confirmation that if a radiant dies while still holding the oaths, the spren hangs out for a bit, and then can either go back to the cognitive realm, or bond another.

Sorry to be a buzzkill, but below is a favorite WoB of mine. It details the situation with the deadeyes, and why it is different than Hoed: Jerich Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant? Brandon Sanderson The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there. I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult. It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris. Jerich Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder. Brandon Sanderson It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless. Jerich So they have to have that something added back? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetware, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. Jerich *stunned/horrified* Oh. Brandon Sanderson Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off. Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

Just have enough time to drop in and say gotta love the confirmation from Mraize that Amaram was in it for the power and glory, not because of religion. "He recruited others, promising them a return to the old glories and powers. Some, like Amaram, listened because of these promises - but for the same reason were easily lured by the enemy. Others were manipulated through their religious ideals." Pretty clear, others (not Amaram), were manipulated through their religious ideals. Others were promised the return to old glories and powers, promises that some (Amaram) listened to because of.

Unfortunately with how the spirit webs of the radiant and the spren becomes intermeshed, that "portion of the brain" is still attached to the knight. The knight that died and "went to the beyond". So it might not be around anymore at all

Or, we could take her comment at face value and the spren are just too small to tell. That the only discernable traits that can be made out lend her to believe it is a radiant spren but it is hard to discern for certain Further it could just be the effect the fabrial has on the spren that results in their sizing. Side note, there is also the fact that jasnah has held information back out of respect to ivory at his request and navani knows that Jasnah has not told her everything from her trip

No problemo. Like i said to each their own. Personally i think the bonded spren knew what was going to happen to them, were against it, but couldn't stop it. There are some scenes in the novels and some WoB i believe support that, but that's just my own theory. Totally get it will work or not work for others.

Eh to each their own Personally the information we get in Syl's interlude makes me think more and more my theory that Dalinar and his connection abilities and other thing I cannot say here are what will help restore what was ripped out of Maya so she can be fully revived. That imho the 7 heartbeats were the result of the perpendicularity, and we have seen oathbringer respond to Dalinar the same way Maya has responded to Adolin in the past (a feeling of urging, and recognizing the wielder). And imho I just don't see the spren being a part of the death and still be able to keep that fact from the rest of the spren. But YMMV

They aren't clearly different. That is your theory, and I wish you luck on it, but it is a theory predicated only because Navani didn't specifically say "hey they are the exact same ones". Inkspren also provide transportation in addition to transformation. Again, I certainly wish you luck with your theory, but I do not see anything that says they are clearly a different type. for reference the quote is: "Spren manifested as larger, or more complete versions of what was seen in the Physical Realm. Soulcasters manifested as small unresponsive spren, hovering with their eyes closed. So the Soulcasters did have a captured spren. A Radiant spren, judging by their shape. Intelligent, rather than the more animal-like spren captured to power normal fabrials. These spren were held captive in Shadesmar, and made to power Soulcasters." The only specific difference mentioned is that the soulcaster spren are "small unresponsive, hovering with their eyes closed", versus normal spren "larger or more complete versions"

But they didn't want to bond. That is spread all across Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer. A lot can happen during that year to change things, and we have no idea the extent of that change nor what caused it. We also know they stopped bonding, and we don't know why. Also there is this in rhythm of war chapter 10 from Syl's own lips "The ones who have joined us did so against the will of the general body of their peers" I already mentioned that the cryptics are bonding as a science experiment. They think they are going to die from doing it, but that the information is worth the risk. We have no idea what is the reason they bonded. Already said the truthwatchers are pretty open to bonding from what we have seen with Ym and Stump. Already mentioned them I said as of Oathbringer the spren of 90 percent of the orders saw humans in a negative light. We have no idea what if anything changed and to what extent. And the numbers offered do not show otherwise yet. There is an interlude with Syl that has information that I do not know if you have read, and I believe we cannot post here. I will be happy to continue to talk on that subject on that thread. I think we will totally see more bonded knights, but that does not automatically mean the spren of each order on whole have already forgiven and forgotten and want to bond enmasse. The entire city didn't like the fact that Adolin, Kaladin, and Shallan was there. They were tolerated. It also wasn't just glares, it says they were eyed with "overt hostility". Nit picking aside, my point was for the most part spren were either downright hostile or indifferent in regards to bonding humans. The starting spren that were bonding allllllll the way up to Oathbringer were the unique. Spren may be bonding now, but that doesn't change for a very long time spren on whole felt humans killed them, and Maya is one of those killed spren. All I am saying is it certainly leans more towards 50/50 on how Maya will feel regarding the whole thing if she is revived. It is far from clear cut that she will be hopping for joy towards humans. (and yes I know of the WoB that states if Maya was alive she would have bonded Adolin. Which I take to mean had she not been killed by a human, and was a normal radiant edgedancer spren, she would have bonded him. ) Hope that clarified things.

Genuinely confused. Not sure where I said things were hopeless. Just because it is always present does not mean people with the conditions cannot live happy and productive lives. The condition not vanishing does not mean the treatment is not working.

Lol I think you can forgive yourself as it is not purely used in corporations and can be beneficial in a myriad of other circumstances. Please do not take this as me using you to illustrate a point, but this is what I mean by the paper being misrepresented. I am not saying you are misrepresenting it, but in the paper it mentions that integration and fusion are two different things. Shallan can still have her alters and be integrated. Full fusion is what you are thinking of, and even that is not a guarantee. Kaladin can strive for self care so well, but there will still be times he will sink into a full depressive episode. The self care is to help him handle it, and work his way back out of it. But full depressive episodes are always on the table. And having a full depressive episode is not indicative of someone failing in therapy, or not working as hard. You can do everything "right", and even do things "right" for years, and a full depressive episode still happen. edit: or to use your other example, Teft can strive to never fall off the wagon ever again regarding firemoss, but that will not change that whether you put Teft in front of fire moss tomorrow, in a month, in a year, in 10, or 30 years, the longing and craving for it will still be there, as strong and powerful. And he will still have to fight it.

I disagree. If you use a real world document as a means of stating how someone is to function, then the document ceases to apply once the effect is altered in the name of "its a fictional character". Further Shallan swearing her truths, and the existence of her alters are related but not subject to one another. Let me put it this way 1. traumatic past is the truths Shallan needs to swear 2. traumatic past gave rise to Shallan's alters 3. Shallan swears truths confronting traumatic past, alters go away We know as per numerous sources, including the one referenced, that even with full fusion, further trauma can result in the re-emergence, or creation of additional alters. It is not an on and off switch. Further we know there is a limited number of oaths. Lightweavers do not swear truths forever. It caps at five. But that does not mean a lightweaver will never suffer further trauma, nor will a lightweaver never have further personal realizations. Just that the realizations associated with the advancement of the oaths have been accomplished. Hmm here is another way of putting it possibly. Even if Kaladin accomplishes all his oaths, and comes to terms with protecting in the way the oaths state, does not change he still has seasonal depression. It will not change that he will still have down days and up days. Just like even if Shallan confronts the trauma of her past, and learns to deal with it, does not mean she will not still feel the need to depend on her alters to handle further subsequent challenges. The alters will have successfully helped her come to intergrate her memories, but still be part of her coping mechanism in the current day. Now stating if this is the case, it is narratively unsatisfactory? That is a separate issue in my mind. That is purely personal and subjective on the part of the reader. Just like there are individuals that dislike the idea that Kaladin will always have depression, there will be people that feel Shallan having DID lacks a resolution. And that is totally okay and acceptable to those people. To each their own. But that lack of narrative satisfaction for that group of individuals does not alter or change the way DID functions for those with it, nor should that necessarily dictate how Sanderson chooses to write the narrative. Can't make everyone happy all of the time right? Basically my point is for someone to find the narrative personally unsatisfactory is not evidence that the narrative cannot and will not go that route. And further that an aspect of that narrative must function in a manner in order to make the narrative satisfactory. It is circuitous. Hopefully I did a good job explaining.

Everything you said I completely agree with. What I didn't agree with is saying as per the guidelines, if Shallan does anything other than full fusion, then she has failed in handling DID. That her end goal must be full fusion as per the document and that can be the only true resolution. Which is what Rainer stated on multiple posts. Which is not what the document said nor is intended for at all. Hence why I quoted the disclaimer. If the subsequent pages are read and quoted, that is further expounded upon. Which is why I felt the portions quoted and presented in that manner were unfair and inaccurate. So once again, I am not attacking the paper. I am disagreeing with the way it was presented and used in this manner.

Don't know if this is in reference to me but just in case to clarify: I am not calling into question the quality of the guidelines themselves nor the research done. I was only stating that it was being misrepresented due to the portions quoted and how it was referenced. Hopefully that helps.

I think it is a gross over simplification to state that integration as per the document you referenced is the sole acceptable goal to be successful. To quote the document you reference: Page 117 The recommendations in the Guidelines are not intended to be construed as or to serve as a standard of clinical care. The practice recommendations reflect the state of the art in this field at the present time. The Guidelines are not designed to include all proper methods of care or to exclude other acceptable treatment interventions. Moreover, adhering to the Guidelines will not necessarily result in a successful treatment outcome in every case. Treatment should always be individualized, and clinicians must use their judgment concerning the appropriateness for a particular patient of a specific method of care in light of the clinical data presented by the patient and options available at the time of treatment. TDLR: What is mentioned in your document are suggestions based on their research. Suggestions that are not necessarily applicable in all scenarios and if fully followed, does not guarantee a successful outcome. It also does not preclude other forms of resolutions on a case by case basis. edit: I sat down and really read through large chunks of this document, and I feel like you jumped right to the "treatments goals and outcome" portion while skipping everything that led up to it, and even then cherry picked the information from that portion. Also some portions you reference is the document itself referencing other clinicians. For example earlier in the document, it references the belief that the physical body does change when the DID switch (think the movie "Split"). That does not mean the document itself is a proponent of such research. It is mentioning it for completeness.

Gas is less dense than a solid, so the "axi" need to be compressed together. The rushing of air, is for the surrounding air to "fill the space" left behind. Having said that, Brandon has also confirmed that conservation of mass is not always precise in soulcasting. For instance Jasnah soulcasting the boulder to smoke is an example of this in the reverse. The dense bolder explodes outwards as it turns into a gas. Apparently if it was fully accurate, the explosion would have been powerful enough to kill everyone there. Also when people are soulcasted to rock, they should shrink but they do not. As for fun thing to do with surges, assuming solid illusions are possible, then extra arms or extra people to accomplish any tasks. You would be your entire work force. Walk around on legs that are like stilts but look like normal legs. Make wings and fly around. And so many many more things.

That is not entirely accurate. Honorspren on whole had to be convinced after Syl bonded but originally wanted nothing to do with humans. The Stormfather had to be forced. Ivory at the time was the only inkspren to bond, against the rest of his people's wishes. Lift is the only edgedancer we have seen bond a spren at all, and that was at the order of The Circle. Couple that with the other edgedancer spren glaring at them. Truthwatcher spren seem to be more open minded as we have seen multiple radiants by them. Lightweaver spren (cryptics) are only doing it to experiment and are willing to risk their lives to do so, but seem convinced that it is a one way trip, and it is inevitable that they will end up with the same result, "death". Stoneward spren also glared at them when they visited the city, so they are out too. Finally Skybreaker we know where they stand. So pretty much of the ten, only two on whole as an order are ok with humans and that are the Truthwatchers and Skybreakers. For literally all the others, as a whole they don't like humans, and only outliers have bonded. And in edgedancer's case, it was forced/assigned. Now how the orders see things since Rhythm of War is a different matter. but those that liked humans were certainly the anomaly after the spren death, not the norm.

Soulcaster and oathgate spren are similar. Take from that what you will: Jofwu In Kaza's interlude, she pulls out her Soulcaster and kind of describes, what seems like a presence of a spren that's there? Is that similar to the Oathgate spren? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes. Good job. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

Not to be a buzzkill, but we have a WoB, that reswearing the oaths (like with Kaladin) only works with the original knight. For anyone else something "extra" would be needed. So oaths alone do not work. I can post the WoB later if you would like to see it.

Not saying this is good or right, but I believe the logic behind it, or at least as much as I reason it, is this: Take a chess set where the man in this example will go first. Place an unintelligent man in front of a chess set and he may get lucky. Place an intelligent man in front of a chess set, and his decisions may be more informed but error is still possible at thinking too short term/short sighted. Place a supremely intelligent man in front of a chess set, and he has already won before the first move was made.

So first and foremost, I am not saying Taravangian is a bang up guy that is great. Also I do agree Amaram and Taravangian should be seen in similar regard in my mind. What I would like to point out however is in regards to the quotes you mentioned: This one is narcissistic and does not acknowledge or care that what he did was wrong. His decisions make it ok, because in his mind, thousands hinge on his decisions. Grandiose self view This one acknowledges what he does is wrong, and does not seek absolution. Only the goal. He will readily accept the consequences of his heinous actions and knows them to be heinous. We both know which quote is to who. I will leave this post with this: Coachdorax Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin? Brandon Sanderson I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being. YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)