Pathfinder

I highly doubt he is referring to Radiants in this manner considering Jasnah and Shallan are the only radiant soulcasters currently on Roshar as of the WoB, while he refers to them as if there are multiple. As in average across Roshar. Just hop by your local soulcaster. Secondly it still does not change the other points made.

Like i said, this has been heavily contested, so ive been though all this before. I already got the: 1. He said full but not FULL full 2. Sanderson didnt hear him say full 3. That makes no sense so cannot be regardless if it says that So i will respond to one or two more things and then leave it be. Again the only reason i posted it is you wanted to hear if there was a way around his speed. That to me is the way around it. Here are my responses: 1. Base fabrial soulcaster can push through the invesititure of a full gold metal metal 2. Radiant soulcasters are stronger than even that, so one would imagine they could do even more 3. Heralds are fueled directly by honor. That makes them on the level of vin when she was directly fueled by preservation. Not when she pushed the bracers off TLR. I mean when she leveled kredick shaw using the trace metal elements in its stone. That level of strength is what i am referring to that would push through the investiture of TLR's bands easily and should be able to change the bands of mourning as well. Finally, lets say it does take time. That doesnt matter because as I stated in the beginning, the first thing batter does is transfer to the Cognitive realm where TLR cannot reach. But she can still soulcast his metal minds. So she could take as long as she needs without fear of reprisal

I give you a glass. You fill it to the brim with water from a pitcher. The soulcaster turns it into air I give you 20 glasses. You have an ocean you pump from filling every single glass. The soulcaster still turns it into air I give you a solid block of metal. You cannot fill it with anything no matter how hard you try. The soulcaster cannot change it It does not matter how vast the ocean is, the container is still the container. The WoB state clearly it is a full metal mind that the fabrial soulcaster changes. Does not matter how much power TLR has access to, you cannot fill a container up more than full. He has multiple containers. He can draw from multiple containers. He can produce more of any attribute to fill those containers. But that does not change the nature of the container, and if they are all gone, he cannot create more.

(soulcaster (fabrial) can soulcast invested objects like a full metal mind because they are used to pushing through the resistance) Questioner Can you Soulcast an Invested object? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans. Questioner So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it? Brandon Sanderson So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) (Herald can access levels of investiture no radiant could attain) WindRunner88 (paraphrased) So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding order? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain. BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018) (honorblades were fueled directly by honor) Steeldancer The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor? Brandon Sanderson Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence. Steeldancer Like Vin and Elend? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do. Steeldancer The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson RAFO Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017) So based on the information provided, I concluded that: 1. fabrial soulcasters are limited by the amount of stormlight in their gemstones, how they are attuned, and the proficiency of the individual using it 2. Radiant soulcasters are limited by the amount of stormlight they can hold and oath level, and the proficiency of the individual using it 3. Herald Battar is not limited by the amount of investiture, and she had thousands of years of experience to account for proficiency 4. If fabrial soulcasters despite their limitations, can still push through a metal mind's investiture and soulcast a full gold metal mind, then I think it is entirely possible that a herald with limitless investiture, and centuries worth of proficiency can soulcast what amounts to be really full normal metal minds. TLR as a sliver and a compounder changes nothing in the nature of the metal mind he uses. All that means is he can fill it to the brim, and fill many many of them. But at the end of the day, they are still normal metal minds.

Again, WoB confirm that a fabrial soulcaster, in all its limitations, can transform a metal mind. The only thing unique about TLR's metal minds is the amount of storage. A herald has access to levels of investiture no radiant could ever hope to. Users of transformation are used to pushing through investiture. These are all WoB that if you like I will be happy to provide. It is the surge of motion, and instantaneous transfer. But as I said, this has been heavily argued before so I do not wish that to happen again. I will be happy to provide the WoB I referenced if you like, but you asked for a way past that situation, and I was providing one I believe could succeed.

Thing is, there is a floor to the cognitive realm. TLR could just increase his mass to sink to the bottom faster, and then run across the floor with speed till he reached "the shore". Shallan and co have shown that to be possible.

This has been heavily contested every time I bring it up, so I have no doubt you will do the same, but just offering an alternative perspective, and going to just leave it at that. Activating abilities is at the speed of thought. Assuming both combatants are placed opposite each other in a location, with no abilities active prior to beginning the bout. Disembodied voice says "Fight" 1. At the same time - The Lord Ruler activates Speed - Battar activates Transportation 2. The lord ruler is alone on the physical realm with no way to reach the cognitive realm - Battar is now in the cognitive realm 3. WoB state that a fabrial soulcaster (not radiant) can soulcast metal minds destroying the contents 4. Radiant soulcasters are more powerful and have less limitations than fabrial soulcasters 5. Herald's have access to levels of investiture to fuel their surges no radiant could ever hope to attain 6. Battar from the cognitive realm soulcasts all of the lord ruler's metal minds to air destroying them 7. The Lord Ruler immediately ages at an accelerated rate and dies of old age.

The humans were surrounded by that point with stormform forming up and surrounding them. The heavenly ones were outnumbered. Kaladin can only shield one person at a time. Further reinforcements were incoming. A shardbearer cannot hold ground remember? I see no way that Kaladin alone at 4th oath leading unarmed humans, and a portion of the heavenly ones against superior numbers that will get regularly replenished could prevail, and push them out of the tower. I guess at this point we will just have to agree to disagree on this portion of the topic. Ah I was a bit confused because there was a misspelling so I didn't know if you were saying could, or couldn't The harmonized tune is completely different than its component parts. And you are saying Kaladin with Rlain, and somehow human scholars despite them being under lock and key can figure out what took Navani days with insights gleaned from Raboniel (an ancient thousands of years old, who couldn't figure it out herself). I completely and absolutely disagree. There is nothing about Rlain that would make him better or capable of the task. 1. him being a listener does not count because even Raboniel being of the same species, and having studied into the subject for thousands of years was unable to 2. him being a spy does not count. Even scholars such as Venli took ages to figure out the lost forms, and even then she needed help from a voidspren. How would a spy with no training in scholarly pursuits do better? 3. The human scholars are under lock and key, and even if you could free them, they would not have the same interactions with Raboniel in order to glean the same insights that Navani did. So again, as far as I am concerned, there is no way anyone else could have figured out and harmonized the the tones to create light with the sibling, nor the know how of fabrials to vent the voidlight, healing the sibling. I am sorry, but it is clear to me it had to be Navani or not at all. Rhythm of War page 872 "Does Towerlight have a tone?" Navani asked "Two tones" Raboiel said, opening her eyes and setting down the Stormlight sphere. "But they aren't simply the tones of Cultivation and of Honor. They are....different, changed so that they are in harmony with one another" "Curious" Navani said "And is there a rhythm to it?" "Yes" Raboniel said "Both tones adopt it, harmonizing as they play the same rhythm. A symphony combining Honor's control and Cultivation's ever building majesty" The Towerlight spheres had all run out by now, and Raboniel had no way to restore them, so there was nothing for them to check The sibling does not know the harmony tune. The Sibling has no idea why it can no longer create light. I provided the quote earlier. The Sibling does not know what is wrong. Navani is the one that figured out the problem, and the solution. No one else. So again, I see no way that Rlain could go up to the Sibling, touch the pillar and know how to harmonize with it. Raboniel was surprised and impressed by Navani's ability with music, to the point that Navani's insights and understanding exceeded Raboniel's. Raboniel on multiple occasions commented on how Navani's capabilities in many areas far exceed her own. Based on the evidence in the book, as far as I am concerned, it is highly improbable that Rlain, Kaladin, and or the scholars would have figured it out. With all due respect, I do not think it is within the realm of possibilities. If anything I feel we are hammered over the head repeatedly across the novel of that. Kaladin's only avenue is fleeing. The only way to repel the invaders and reclaim the tower is the Sibling. Rhythm of War page 1084 They'd practiced Kaladin's trick of infusing objects and is boots to climb down walls. In an emergency, someone might have to jump out the window and hope to regain their powers before they hit the ground - but that was an absolute last resort. The current plan was for the Windrunners to climb down the outside, each with another Radiant strapped to their backs. It was far from a perfect plan, but it was better than letting the Fused murder the Radiants while they were in comas. "Even if you only get yourself out" Kaladin said "do it, rather than staying and making a hopeless stand. Take your spren and get to Dalinar." I believe this is a false equivalency. Just because Kaladin was a crucial part in the delaying tactics to get the Sibling healed by Navani, does not negate the importance of restoring the Sibling. Without the Sibling, there is only retreat and loss of the tower. Disagree for the reasons I mentioned before. The Sibling was wiretapped. Raboniel would have still found out about the second node because the Sibling is the one that stated its location. Disagree because as stated above, the second node would still have been found. Further the nodes would not have been a thing to begin with because if it was not for Navani, the Sibling would not have contacted anyone to begin with. edit: Before you state that the Sibling would have sent Dabbid to Kaladin, keep in find a few things: 1. The sibling only used the crazy lady and Dabbid to contact Navani initially via spanreed to get her to stop 2. Had that not happened, then by the time the Sibling would have any impetus to contact anyone, the span reeds would no longer work, so the sibling would have no way to communicate with Kaladin to let him know they existed to begin with, nonetheless that they could communicate via the veins of rock. 3. No communication, means no way to tell Kaladin to infuse to start the shield to begin with 4. Even if some how all three of the above were not issues, it still involves an attack by soldiers that will fail with them all dying. Kaladin at this point in his progression would have never let the men go alone, and would have not abandoned them, so he would have died with them. 5. Kaladin would have definitely abandoned the attempt for the Sibling, because they literally tell Navani that the group of men holding off the fused are doomed. To forget them, and focused on infusing the gemstones to get the shield up. So forgetting everything else on the list (though it is considerable and I do not see how), can you honestly tell me that when the Sibling tells Kaladin to forget and abandon men who are doomed and going to die, in favor of infusing the gemstones, that Kaladin would do so? In his current state of mind? That he would not go back in a last ditch effort to save every single one of them, and then drop down insensate upon failing and watching guard after guard die? Without Sibling back up, Kaladin would not have been alive at this point at all. Remember the room that because of the Sibling Kaladin was able to hide in? They never spoke of the location, but the Sibling is the reason Kaladin found it, and could use it as an impromptu base of operations in enemy territory. Further without Navani, then there would be no glove to use a "hacked" version of lashings, so Kaladin's mobility would have been severely lacking, and taken out by the Pursuer since he would have had only access to adhesion. Keep in mind there is a whole list of occurrences that flow from Navani, that if not for her, it would have been game over practically at the beginning of the book. And based on what I see in the book, the chance of success would only be fleeing. No chance of retaking the tower. Full stop. I genuinely see no evidence that would show otherwise. I respect that is your view, but I am sorry I really cannot see a middle ground in this. There is just too much info showing that it had to be Navani, and that without her, the tower falls. I disagree that the break down you provided concludes this. Further I disagree that the end result can be stated in that manner. Both actions were crucial and necessary. Kaladin delaying the enemy and Navani restoring the Sibling. I think it is a false dichotomy to divide their contributions in the manner you have presented in your conclusion.

Still doesn't change as Kaladin said, due to the oathgate, the fused will continue to get reinforcements. It is a losing option. Even when the heavenly ones switch sides, they still speak of retreat. The human resistance lacked weapons for the most part, and the training to use them. The only thing that turned the tide in regards to retaking the Tower was the restoration of the Sibling. No problem, feel free, though I had added the quote to my post. Feel free to review. edit: Though I feel the need to point out it does not matter if it is just the sibing or both, because the sibling is the one that stated where the nodes were. So if it is both the Sibling and Navani that Raboniel heard, then she would still hear about the node even if the convo was just to Kaladin without her being able to hear his response. The information would still have reached her. It was not just singing Honor's tune. It was because Navani found how to combine them harmoniously. We were shown over the course of the book how hard it is to find ancient rhythms by the listeners themselves, and that was regarding their own scholars. Rlain is not a scholar. He is a spy, by his own words. Raboniel and her scholars were unable to figure it out. So again, from everything we have seen in the book, it is not possible to just push Rlain up to the gemstone pillar, him magically figure out the tunes, bond and restore the Sibling. Not to mention understand the complicated fabrials throughout the tower that were needed to vent the voidlight to heal the corruption. You can feel free to argue the afterwards, as to whether Rlain now being taught the new rhythm could bond the sibling or not, but not the during. I would disagree with you regarding the afterwards, but we are discussing the during. It had to be Navani plain and simple Rhythm of war page 734 (We see even raboniel admit she does not know what is wrong with the sibling nor how to combine lights) “Ah,” Raboniel said, “but this isn’t the third Light. We call that Lifelight. Cultivation’s power, distilled. This is something different. Something unique. It is the reason I came to this tower. It is a mixing of two. Stormlight and Lifelight. Like…” “Like the Sibling is a child of both Honor and Cultivation,” Navani said. Storms. That was what the Sibling had meant by their Light no longer working. They hadn’t been able to make the tower function any longer because something had happened to the tower’s Light. “It came out in barely a trickle,” Raboniel said. “Something is wrong with the tower, preventing it from flowing.” Her rhythm grew more energetic. “But this is proof. I have long suspected that there must be a way to mix and change the various forms of Light. These three energies are the means by which all Surges work, and yet we know so little about them." No it was not within his abilities, as I have explained above. It is not simply singing a tune. Most of Navani's research was learning how to harmonize them. Which Raboniel, a fused connected to the original rhythms of Roshar and centuries old, could not figure out. Nor could a random spy. Navani was the only one to figure out how to harmonize the rhythms. And again, there isn't pushing the enemy out. The radiants present were depowered. The heavenly ones were out numbered, and the humans were non powered. They were fighting knowing reinforcements were incoming and that the battle was doomed unless they escaped. I will pull up that quote. Rhythm of War page 1164 (at this point they were losing. Kaladin flies in having gotten his plate, but it is the tower awakening and depowering the fused that resulted in them winning)(spoilered for length) And again, that is not what I am discussing. Feel free to continue to do so with Karger. I see no productive end result to continuing that line of discourse with you. You can dislike Navani and her actions however you wish, for whatever reason you wish. I am only saying that if she did nothing, the tower would not be restored, the fused would still be occupying Urithiru, and Kaladin and co would have had to flee. I am not trying to justify anything. Just commenting on the mechanics.

But if they could have pushed the fused out, why did the plan come up twice where Kaladin states the best they can do is evacuate as many people as they can? Raboniel says she had been listening in on the Sibling since they entered the tower, and that the Sibing is naïve which is why it didn't realize it could be listened in on. Navani did not speak out loud the location. The Sibling told her the location, and then freaked out because they had found it. Before Navani could have even told Kaladin. So the "wire tap" as it were was at the Sibling, not Navani's speech. Rhythm of War page 827 "The Sibling is truly to blame - they always have been so innocent. And unaware of their own naiveness. When I touched the pillar, I knew the Sibling was awake - but pretending to be dead. So I let the ruse continue, and I listened. I couldn't know that decision would bear fruit, bt that is why you nurture nine seeds and watch for the one that begins growing." "The Sibling told me..." Navani said "hey said we couldn't outthink you." "Yes, I heard that" Raboniel said "It made me worry that you'd spotted my surveillance. It seemed too obvious a line to distract me" "How?" Navani asked, opening her eyes "How did you do it, Ancient One? Surely the Sibling would have known if their communication could be compromised" (here is where Raboniel dodges the question) So as you can see, it was the Sibling that was "wire tapped", not Navani. Rlain was being discussed when the Sibling said it doesn't matter whether they bond a bondsmith or not, because it cannot make light. Navani was the one that figured out how to. If it was a simple matter for Rlain to do so, then a large chunk of the book would have had no reason to happen. The bond with Rlain would not have fixed anything, from the SIbling's own "mouth". Rhythm of War page 799 "I had not considered this," they said "A singer who does not serve Odium? I will need to think. It would certainly surprise Raboniel, who thinks that I am dead or sleeping. In any case, I cannot form a bond now, with the protections up. I would need him to touch my pillar" "What if I had him here?" Navani said "Ready to try when the shield falls? And with some distractions in place to give you time to talk to him" "I cannot form a bond with just anyone" the Sibling said "In the past I spent years evaluating Bondsmith squires to select one who fit me exactly. Even they eventually betrayed me, though not as badly as other humans" "Can we really afford pickiness now?" "It's not ickiness. It is the nature of spren and the bond. The person must be willing to swear the correct oaths, to unite instead of divide. They must meant it, and the oaths must be accepted. It is not simply a matter of throwing the first person you find at me. Beyond that, since I cannot create Towerlight, they will not be able to either. A bond would do nothing unless we solve the problems with my powers. It would be better if you focused on that problem instead" So as you can see, they were discussing Rlain. Even if the Sibling bonded with him, it would change nothing. The Sibling and by proxy Rlain would be unable to create light, and thereby activate the defenses. I guess at this point I am confused, because you stated in a prior post that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin could have saved the tower. I am in no way shape or form diminishing Kaladins considerable accomplishments, but at the end of the day they were only a stop gap. The oathgates brought in reinforcements, and would have continued to do so. That is why the fight over the radiant's felt helpless. It was supposed to be a quick smash and grab to get out of there. The whole thing would have failed, and Kaladin and co would have needed to flee (which was the original plan. Grab everyone they could and get out of dodge). Based on the information provided in the book, I see no way that Kaladin regardless how many people he rallies, of being able to retake Urithiru, push the enemy out, and hold the tower. It is stated repeatedly till the defenses are switched back to against the fused, the tower is enemy's. As I said given the heated nature of the earlier discourse, I am not touching with a ten foot poll as to whether Navani achieved anything, or caused things to go worse with her research. All I was commenting on was the suggestion that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin would have found a way to save the tower. Which from everything we are given to see in the novel to me is impossible.

Eh not really. The quotes i pulled up convince me all the more regarding navani as a bondsmith so it doesn't feel like wasted time.

At least one individual in this thread thinks Navani will either kill the Sibling, or the Sibling breaks the bond (or thinks that should happen)(I checked, but will not name names). Personally I disagree, but I don't think it is productive to continue. So I wish everyone luck and RAFO!

I got my quotes all ready to go and then......I caught up. So at this stage I do not think it would be productive to post them. People are getting heated, and it is clear people are locked in their views. Rather then perpetuate it, I will just leave it be and say I wish everyone luck with their theories, and I guess we will just have to Read and Find Out to see if Navani either kills the Sibling, or the Sibling breaks its bond with her.

So I understand you are quite passionate about your view regarding Navani doing research, so I will not touch that and potentially further inflame the situation. What I will comment on however is whether or not Kaladin alone could have saved the tower had Navani done nothing. 1. The Sibling had no way to make light. Without the ability to make light, the defenses would remain in Fused hands. Even if the Sibling bonded with anyone else, it would still be unable to make light. The Sibling said so itself. So the SIbling would still be corrupted, and still be unable to defend itself. Kaladin would have had to evacuate Urithiru, which is what he had intended. 2. Had the Sibling contacted Kaladin instead of the Sibling, the same nodes would have been discovered. Raboniel was not listening in on Navani. She was listening in on the Sibling. So any communication between the Sibling and Kaladin would have also been discovered, and the nodes would have been found. Further overall the shield was only a delaying tactic. It was never meant to prevent Raboniel completely. They knew she would get around it eventually. Again Kaladin would have had to evacuate Urithiru, which is what he had intended. Ultimately Kaladin was another delaying action. The only way to regain Urithiru was by restoring its defenses. The only way to restore its defenses was to find a way to get the SIbling to be able to make light again. That is something Kaladin as an individual, Kaladin as a windrunner, and Kaladin based on his know-how, was simply unable to do. So Urithiru would have fallen.

Actually he wants a spren that wants him for "something he has done". The Sibling wants him because he is not human. I have the quotes for that, but as I said regarding the 61 quotes regarding the info on the spren, can I have a moment between having to type them all up? Yes, but every quote saying it is possible, also says it is improbable because the radiant would have to maintain multiple oaths that can conflict, and you have to find multiple spren that are ok with it, when we have seen they classically are not. My point is that a person could potentially bond any order. After they bond, bonding another spren is incredibly difficult. It is not absurd at all. The very quote where Navani and the Sibling discuss that it is pointless for the Sibling to bond someone as they cannot make light is exactly when they were discussing Rlain. If Rlain was so easy to do so, then they would have brought Rlain before the Sibling to begin with. Not prioritize figuring out how to create light. For myself the discussion was whether or not the Sibling should remain bonded to Navani, and whether the Sibling was coerced into the bond by Navani. Then it developed into saying she should have never been a bondsmith to begin with because she doesn't show the traits of a bondsmith. Which is why I said I believe anyone can show "traits" of any orders. It does not mean they have to be that order, nor does it mean it precludes them from potentially bonding some other order. At least that was my understanding of the discussion's progression. But we did not see Gaz go through any process of squiredom. For all we know he bonded his own spren. For instance Elhokar. He did not exibit any evidence of being Shallan's squire, and people on this forum have railed and railed about him becoming a radiant. But he ended up bonding one before he was killed. Maybe you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say? Let me try it this way if we met Kaladin and there was no syl in the picture. So we didn't see any windspren. All we have to work with is his actions. Then let us take what happened with him and his bridgemen: 1. Well he protected and leaded them, he is totally going to be a windrunner! 2. He rails against the injustice of Sadeas's camp. He wants to bring justice to Amaram for killing his men in cold blood. He has to be a skybreaker! 3. He brings together the bridgemen from various disparate backgrounds. He is uniting instead of dividing. We know who our next bondsmith is! 4. By caring for the bridgemen, Kaladin is remembering those who are forgotten, and listening to those who are ignored. Edgedancer here we come! 5. By training his men, and training himself, Kaladin is focused on bettering himself. He wants to reach his true potential so they can live. Elsecaller to teleport them away! 6. Kaladin has such painful truths to come to terms with regarding his past. Failing his father. Losing his brother. He will truly be a radiant lightweaver! 7. Kaladin has fought time and again to free slaves and bring liberty to the bridgemen. Hello there our amazing willshaper! 8. Kaladin has stood where others have fallen. He has persevered and championed the hopeless cause of the bridgemen. This stoneward will not fall! 9. Kaladin has seen the truth inside his fellow bridgemen. Teft the gruff but caring sergeant. Rock the jovial yet solemn cook. Our beloved Truthwatcher truly sees 10. Kaladin has worked to master his depression, and honed his skills with the spear. He will be a focused and dedicated Dustbringer! Prior to seeing what spren he interacts with, every single one of those interpretations is valid. Going on personality alone, for myself, tells us nothing. Now based on where Kaladin is, what spren are in the area, what happens in his life, he will run into spren that are more or less likely to bond with him. For instance you could think he is absolutely perfect to be a windrunner, but end up being chosen by the Circle, and a cultivation spren picks him. Now Kaladin is an edgedancer. That is my point, and one I believe is supported by the WoB. That is why I do not see the point in going over every interaction with Navani to try and decide "hmmmm, she said this, and that is very bondsmithy" or "Navani said that, and no bondsmith would ever say that!". I guess where I was confused is if you are referencing where Brandon said you cannot become any order, that you were going to post the WoB that said that. Could you post that one? (edit) just in case. Really not meaning to sound snarky or what have you. I genuinely got confused, and would like to see the other WoB if that is possible. Thank you! Yeah, could you post that WoB? Because I do not recall seeing that anywhere or anything that indicated that in that manner.

Ah, then I guess we just disagree on that topic. I believe each surge could be related to the oath of the knight that employs them. It would take some time to list each one though. Yes, they all have. That's my point. A radiant doesn't start having perfectly understood, and represented the ideals. It is through progressing through the bond that the person themselves grow. Kaladin back slid repeatedly and nearly killed Syl. Shallan as well. Dalinar still. As I was going through the quotes with the Sibling I came across this: Rhythm of War page 824 "You have hurt me, Dalinar. This is the second time you have done so. You push against our bond, forcing me to do things that are not right." "I push you to stretch," Dalinar said "That is always painful. Did you hear what Stormblessed told me?" I feel the same stands for Navani. Challenging her own and the Siblings preconceptions, and growing together. I have found quotes I feel represent this, but as I said, I do not believe pouring over such would be productive as I believe that is purely subjective. I am not seeking to change your mind on how you feel about Navani as the Sibling's bondee. I respect your view. I don't recall anything indicating that he has to become a squire first. If you would have to become a squire before bonding as a radiant, then Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Ym, etc etc etc could not have become a thing. So I added this WoB as I was going through the book, not sure if you saw it when you posted this. If you did, no problem, but just posting it again just in case. Brandon says a lot of people could be in multiple orders. That it just depends on what spren you end up meeting and where you go from there. Questioner What Order of Knights Radiant would you be? Brandon Sanderson I don't know. I've thought this before. Probably Bondsmith would be definitely my personality. But it depends. It depends on, if I were living in Roshar, what would my life be like, and things like that. A lot of people could be in multiple Orders, depending on the spren they meet, and where they go from there. FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018) Don't really see where that means the Lord Ruler couldn't potentially be appealing to multiple orders. I am using a word search on my Kindle. I only asked if you had a reference because I was in the middle of pulling up references for another topic. The human mind can be faulty due to memory recall. Like a coppermind, each time we recall a memory, we color that memory with the feelings we have associated with it till it can practically change the entire memory. It is one of the reasons witness testimony is so unreliable. I am not saying this to mean you are unreliable, nor that I am calling your thoughts into question. Just why I like to work with a quote in front of me rather than going on recollection. Having said that, I have completed my search using spanreed and Sibling keywords to locate every instance of their conversations over fabrials and spren. I have book marked them. Going through them again and typing them up is time consuming however (about 61 of them). I would like to take a break for the night, and type them up tomorrow to discuss further.

I guess I am confused now. You asked what the powers have to do with the order, so I mentioned it. Did I misunderstand? (not being obtuse. genuinely asking) Right he tried and failed. Then he bonded the stormfather who was convinced Dalinar would kill him. Dalinar tried more and failed. And continued to rise as a better person each time. Personally I believe Navani tried on multiple occasions, and kept going. She then bonded the Sibling, and I believe she will continue to try and fail and become a better person. Like I said, I do not feel it would serve the discussion to pour over every action Navani has taken, and try to prove whether or not it reflects a "bondsmith". I could take one scene of Kaladin's and say how it represents windrunner ideals, edgedancer ideals, skybreaker ideals, stonewards ideals, and so on and so forth. I really don't see a productive conclusion to that line of discussion. So I respect that is how you feel. I just disagree. I thought a lot of people were surprised that Gaz was a bonded radiant? Prior to his bond he did not exhibit squire abilities, so we do not know whether or not he was a squire first. Further you can be a squire of one order, and end up joining a completely different one. So you could espouse and show attributes of one order, and still attract a spren from a different order. At the end of the day we just really really disagree on the interpretation on that scene and I don't see us reaching an accomidation here. I do not read that scene in the way you portray it at all. I guess we can RAFO to see if Navani does in fact continue to imprison spren, and kill the Sibling. I don't think she will, but guess we will find out in Book 5. Could you provide the quotes for those scenes? I would be happy to pull them up, but I am still checking if Rlain knew about the possibility of bonding the Siblng or not. Could you provide those WoB? The ones I recall usually involve Brandon listing three or four orders roughly for a person. Like Spensa from Skyward for instance. If I recall correctly she would make a good dustbringer, edgedancer, and a third one. I will pull that WoB up because I think it is easy to find. One moment please. Phantine Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes: If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best? Brandon Sanderson Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018) Questioner What Order of Knights Radiant would you be? Brandon Sanderson I don't know. I've thought this before. Probably Bondsmith would be definitely my personality. But it depends. It depends on, if I were living in Roshar, what would my life be like, and things like that. A lot of people could be in multiple Orders, depending on the spren they meet, and where they go from there. FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018) Again, I don't think it would be productive to discuss this topic. I don't see it ending well. Kaladin by Syl's own words was acting like a skybreaker. Suffice it to say, I believe any action could be placed subjectively in any light, and that does not mean that person will have to end up in that order. The shear number of debates on what order people feel various characters should fall into I think is evidence enough nonetheless the other information we receive in the book. But again, I respect that you disagree and I wish you luck with your theory. edit: at this point I could keep going further and further back in the book, but I think it is pretty clear Rlain had no idea about potentially bonding the sibling. He thought they were going to wake up the radiants via Lift, and try to flee. That he was to get to the queen to get her out. He didn't know they intended to have him bond the Sibling. I am still open to being wrong in this case, but everything I have found points to Rlain not knowing. So I don't think we can say how Rlain would feel on the subject of bonding the Sibling. Further considering how possessive spren are about their radiants (Syl reacting to the gloryspren for instance), I doubt Rlain's corrupted truthwatcher spren and the Sibling would be willing to share. Rlain's corrupted truthwatcher spren is thrilled to have bonded Rlain, and I think it wouldn't be fair to that spren to take him away from that. Now I am going to see the level of information the Sibling provided Navani with regarding fabrials.

Moash was not the immediate danger. The sibling dying from the corrruption that raboniel put into them was. And that would have continued regardless the fused. Which is why if the tower's defenses go down again, then again it is vulnerable to the same exact problem. It doesn't matter who the sibling bonds to, because the sibling couldn't make light to protect itself. Only Navani was able to do so. Isn't there whole theories and thoughts on this board about how Kaladin's ability to lead is connected to his powers? Gravitating people together, and pulling them to him. Adhering them into a group? And he said at the end of Words of Radiance he failed. Only two highprinces followed him. Then in oathbringer it was about uniting the coalition. Which again at the end he failed because it almost completely dissolved. If it worked the way you posit, I believe he would have killed the stormfather repeatedly. But each time he failed, he rose as a better person, to try again, and try to do better. Just like Navani. Gaz? Lopen? Vathah? Skar? None of them were already acting like their respective orders. They grew as people and worked towards it. Lyn just showed up and asked to train to be a windrunner, and began to emulate their ideals. To me Navani has continually worked to bring scholars together in a common pursuit. But as I have come to the conclusion for myself that because of the nature of the bond, you can see any radiant order in anyone at any time, I do not feel there is an accurate way to say "person A did action B, which means they must become radiant C". So if you don't see her as making sense as a bondsmith, then that is totally your prerogative, and I respect that. I just personally disagree. So I am not going to re-post the quote and go back and forth over it. That never ends well. Personally if you have a person doing an action in the past, and another person saying to stop the action, I do not see how the very word "compromise" can result in the first person still taking the exact same action. Across the novel Navani continually asked the Sibling why it was bad, and sought to find a way to stop it from hurting anyone. Due to the circumstances, the Sibling only responded with "just stop". If you tell someone eating meat is bad, it does not help your cause nor grow understanding when every time they ask why, you just say "stop". That's why there is material on it, videos, and so on. To educate. Navani sought to be educated on the matter, to do better. To each time she falls, rise again and do better. Just like Dalinar. As I said above, I feel "exhibiting the ideals" is highly subjective, and you can place actions in any context and attribute someone to any order. I think that is the very nature of the magic system. Kaladin could have just as easily become a skybreaker, edgedancer, elsecaller, willshaper, stoneward, bondsmith, and etc in my estimation. I certainly respect people disagree with this belief, but that is why I do not choose to argue what constitutes Navani "exhibiting the ideals" of a bondsmith. Because I feel anyone could, and she has. This might take me a moment to find, so I readily acknowledge I could be wrong, but did at any point Rlain get asked if he wanted to bond the Sibling? What if Dalinar turned back into the blackthorn, killed the stormfather, and became Odium's champion? Or what if he chose to after each time he fell, to rise again, and try to be better? Like Navani wants to. edit: speaking of Rlain: Rhythm of War page 1189 "I don't deserve any of this" she whispered to him "I was weak, Rlain" "The start doing better" he told her, pulling back "That is the path of Radiance, Venli. still looking to see if Rlain was asked about bonding the sibling. Till I find it, I actually found this convo between Venli and Timbre. Mistakes can be wonderful: Rhythm of War page 1096 "What if we got you a different host? A singer who cares, like Rlain." Timbre pulsed "What do you meant?" Venli demanded "You can't want me. I'm an accident. A mistake" Another pulse "Mistakes can't be wonderful, Timbre. That's what defines them as mistakes." So far the closest I found is what is shown below. Rlain and Dabbid just being told to get to the crystal pillar where the Sibling is. Not why Rhythm of War page 1084 "Bridge Four" Kaladin said "I don't want to leave you two alone, Dabbid, but we need to move now - and I want the queen to be contacted. Plus... the Sibling said something. About sending Rlain to them" "They said it to me too" Dabbid said. I will check more, but the preceding passages support this. They were going to use Rlain because he could reach Navani due to being parshendi. I don't think Rlain knew about bonding the sibling at all, but I will keep checking. So I don't think we know how Rlain feels on the subject. But my memory is hazy so I could very well be wrong. I will keep looking.

Up until Navani, Rabonel was convinced that voidlight and stormlight would destroy each other. Navani was able to unite them. Dalinar unites the three realms. Navani unites the investiture. I don't see a difference personally. Dalinar had not united the humans yet when he bonded the stormfather. So too Navani. To me radiance is a process, and progress. You don't start out a perfect radiant. Otherwise you would jump to oath five. Szeth was already on the path for awhile, which is why he advance so quickly in the skybreakers. Dalinar is still working to unite. He genuinely wants to. Navani is the same. She said no such thing: Rhythm of War page 1180 "Our bond is unusual," the sibling said "I still do not know what I think of what we've done" "If we meant our words and keep them, does it matter?" "What of Fabrials?" the Sibling asked "You did not promise to stop capturing spren" "We will find a compromise." Navani said, picking her way out of the room with the crystal pillar "We will work together to find an acceptable path forward" "Will it be like your compromise with Raboniel, where you tricked her?" "That was the best compromise she and I could come to and we both knew it" Navani said "You and I can do better" She didn't say she would just continue capturing spren. She pledged to work with the SIbling to find something better. I guess that is your opinion and I wish you luck with it, but personally I disagree. To each their own.

The danger has not passed. Odium and the fused are still a thing. They need the protections of the tower. Navani figured out the problem with the light. The sibling said that even if she bonded, she still couldn't create light, so it wouldn't accomplish anything. Navani did that. Without Navani, no new light, no protection. Further I just added the quote where through the bond, the Sibling realizes their very creation was intended to bridge the gap between human and spren. Not between parshendi and spren. That is Venli's purpose heres the quote regarding creating light. so without Navani, tower would still be vunerable and could be killed by Odium and co: Rhythm of War page 799 "It's not pickiness It is the nature of spren and the bond. The person must be willing to swear he correct oaths, to unite instead of divide. They must mean it, and the oaths must be accepted. It is not simply a matter of throwing the first person you find at me. Beyond that, since I cannot create Towerlight, they will not be able to either. A bond would do nothing unless we solve the problems with my powers. It would be better if you focused on that problem instead"

She united the stormlight and voidlight into a harmonious song resulting in light combined known as the Rhythm of War. She also united the human and spren in cause: Rhythm of War page 1182 "I am sorry" Navani said "for discovering this Light. It will let spren be killed" "It was coming to us" the Sibling said "Consequences once chased only humans. With the Recreance, the consequences became ours as well. You have simply sealed that truth as eternal" Rhythm of War page 1149 "Our emulsifier" Navani whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower "The common ground," the Sibling said "Between humans and spren. That is....that is why I was created, so long ago..." "Navani" the Sibling said "I accept your Words"

Navani was not the one that put the gun to anyone's head if there is a "gun" to be referred to. It was mutual survival from an outside threat that though is no longer imminent is still very present. I still dont see how dalinar was any more "worthy" than navani. To me the situations are near identical.

So I will spoil it all as it is all referenced to the dawnshard but here we go: 6. We know Arclomedarian is the one that met with Lift 7. We know from Hoid that a sleepless is a member of the ghostbloods. So that is why I concluded Arlco is not one of the rogues mentioned in Dawnshard edit: OH OH OH! I just had a thought! I need to do some more digging, but I think Mraize is

Give me a bit to pull up the exact scene, but they specify they are not referring to him when they mention the rogue.

They can theoretically bond, but they have to be able to maintain the oaths of both spren. Do we know a corrupted truthwatcher spren's oaths are the same as a truthwatcher's? If so, do we also know the oaths of a regular truthwatcher is compatible, or able to be maintained in line with a bondsmith's oaths? Finally, if a corrupted truthwatcher spren's oaths are different than a regular's, then are we sure that version is compatible? A person can have the tendencies of multiple orders but that doesn't mean they can maintain the oaths, nor that the oaths are necessarily similar to do so. Still requires a mechanism, or mechanic. And we are still talking the SIbling versus normal spren. edit: also just a little nit pick, but the "simple, harmless, totally non-contro one" part was in reference to the type of question. Not whether or not the severing of the bond on the part of the spren was harmless. The questioner was asking, because they thought if spren couldn't break oaths, then the bond would constitute as an oath, and thereby be unable to break it. Finally personally I still do not see the difference between the Stormfather/Dalinar and SIbling/Navani in this. They are both individuals with painful pasts. They both got involved with spren that hated them in the beginning, and resisted bonding them. They both were put into situations where they relented to bond. They both are still suspicious in the beginning. And I believe, much like the stormfather, and as Navani said, over time the Sibling and Navani will reach an understanding/accord.