Fifth of Daybreak

That's amazing! I hadn't put it together yet.

Ha! Airsick lowlander. Lunamor does not need such a thing to win simple drinking contest!

Just out of curiosity, those of you who are saying it felt rushed, too many POV, small characters, etc. Have you guys read WoT? I'm wondering if that might be part of the reason for our differences in opinion. For me, reading this was seeing those flaws you've described improved greatly from where I saw them in WoT. I felt a lot of the same tension in part 5 that I felt throughout A Memory of Light, which really blew me away since this is only book three and that took thirteen books to set up.

It's not the only place where consequences have been skipped over for the sake of the storyline either. Kaladin has faced no scrutiny whatsoever for his most trusted officer and shardbearer defecting and attempting to kill the king, but there hasn't been anywhere near the storm about that on the forums from what I've seen. Honestly, I think Sadeas was finished if Adolin hadn't killed him, again, because of consequences that were never addressed. You brought up the second assassination attempt, and that would've come back squarely in Sadeas's camp with a proper investigation. Adolin mentioned the carpenter with the birthmark killed himself with poison, but that didn't bury the lead since Kaladin survived. Kaladin recognized the man from Sadeas's camp before the attempt, would have been able to recognize him and point towards Sadeas following his return, and had other bridgemen to back him up. From there, it would be a matter of finding people among Sadeas's carpenters who knew him, and following the bribe money that convinced him to become a martyr, as there had to be some kind of kickback to his family or something to get him to willingly walk to his death. I agree with everything you said. I think it's unfair to say that Adolin faced no fallout for this when so many characters get away with so much. Shallan stole from Jasnah and essentially blackmails her way back into favor. Jasnah leaves a soulcast crystal corpse as proof of her murders in Kharbranth. Dalinar used his position to beat the King, having his guards show they were loyal to him instead of Elhokar, which, looking at his sudden increase in influence and power in WoR, is, in essence, a military coup. Teft was arrested for public intoxication and it was swept under the rug. It's not like Adolin is the only one with plot armor.

You evil genius! I love this.

Much better, thanks. Every little bit we can do to help prevent spoilers for those who haven't read the books I'm sure is greatly appreciated, and thread titles show up on the main forum. I'm not sure he could be captured though. While this could just be an unreliable narrator in Moash, it does seem pretty absolute.

10/10 would abandon all responsibilities to read again

Would you mind editing your title to either be less spoilery or to put the spoiler later in the topic so it has less of a chance of showing up on the forums page?

It's all supposition, but basically, I look at it like this. We know the basics of how it works from the stormfather. Spoiler for length. @Leyrann I want to point out that 'broken' is used three times here in the only direct description we have of the process, contrary to your claim that broken is only ever used in the prologue by Kalak. The Stormfather refers to all of the Heralds as broken. @PhineasGage So, as I see it, the Heralds return to Braize to contain the Voidbringers and they start to get tortured. Odium starts to do his same speech he gives to Dalinar to the Heralds. "You're not alone. Let go. Give your pain to me." In doing so, it's actually giving him permission to remove a splinter from their soul, specifically the portion that allows that pain and the passion to endure it. This is then merged with a splinter of Odium's power and endowed onto a spren, my best guess a lesser spren of each order, such as a creation spren for Re-Shephir as we already have evidence for. Taln is a special case though. Taln not only survived all the torture the other Heralds couldn't bear together, he survived ten times the torture for millennia. That's mad respect right there. We know he holds a grudge. Odium understands the power of that, and wouldn't want to waste it on a spren, instead, he would want to infuse that power into his first immortal human champion. His first human fused, which was supposed to be Dalinar. Had Dalinar given up his pain, it would have created the necessary crack in his spiritweb for Odium to exploit and turn him into a fused. So if Dalinar had given of himself here, he could have been endowed in the same way both the fused and the unmade were, creating an immortal spren-like being who could inhabit the body of willing Odium bound humans on death through the everstorm combining a deviation of the most stalwart and dependable Herald with the most devastating military commander and force Roshar has ever seen.

I think it might be an issue of semantics more than anything. Are you looking at 'relationship' and 'direct link' as completely synonymous? What I'm trying to say, is that I do agree that the WoB does not provide concrete evidence of a direct "the Heralds are the causality for the Unamde" link, but I am interpreting it that way for my specific theory. That being said, Brandon's statement paraphrased to 'the unmade are not analogs of the Heralds but deviations of them' implies a relationship of some sort, whether their creation was modeled after them in some way, as a response to them, or some other tangential relationship. While there is not definitive proof of 'H caused U' there is proof that "H is in some way, shape or form related to U." Let me clarify here, I'm not trying to imply that your logic is flimsy because of the supposition. Rather, I just wanted to show that you have argued your side well enough that I have no real complaints left that rely on hard evidence. I just want to verbalize I'm choosing not to argue against it not because I'm convinced you're wrong and don't see the point in continuing to discuss; I just don't feel as though I can contribute anything more to the conversation that will either contribute to the the theory or take away from it. Mystatement on the supposition was just to clarify that your arguments weren't quite enough to win me over to your side. Essentially, I've heard your argument and I see its merits, and while I don't accept it personally, I also don't see any concrete evidence that says it's implausible or unlikely and I think you've got a sound basis for your theory for what knowledge we have. I'm happy to agree to disagree. I also, belatedly, realize I was a little grouchy waking up this morning and some of that bled into my reply. That's unfair to you and I apologize.

This is cherry picking. If you think the selection is important, it has to be as a whole thought, as he's qualifying the statement you've bolded. . The full thought is "they aren't a one to one correlation, they aren't exactly the same." This still leaves Brandon stating, essentially, 'the unmade aren't analogs of the Heralds they're deviations.' I've laid out specific arguments for the nature of those deviations and the one-to-one is also satisfied by 9 unmade and one champion, as that's not a one-to-one correlation between unmade and Heralds where they are exactly the same. This is also a direct contradiction of your claim that we have no evidence of a relationship between the Heralds and the unmade. (I do apologize for using derivative in my earlier posts. That was a transcription mistake and I take full responsibility.) There doesn't seem to be much of a reason for the Unmade to remain on Roshar without a ton of supposition for each unmade. But they cannot be considered analogous while at the same time operating under the impression we have no evidence of a relationship between them, which is where I took the most umbrage with Leyrann's reply. For your defense yesterday, I didn't reply because I didn't see any obvious contradictions in your logic. Too much supposition to win my support over, but it's well founded enough I respect your position and see no need to test it further without more information available at this time.

I'm going to quote this WoB for the third time. This is why I said you didn't make a cogent argument. You described my point without ever contradicting the thesis.

"I feel like we're getting worse" implies that the effect has varying degrees of efficacy. Ash could be one of the more recent Heralds to break. There's obviously still some degree of emotion left to people, look at Moash, who still displays regular emotion even when he's numb. Derivative-imitative of the work of another person, and usually disapproved of for that reason. analogous-comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared. Brandon: "There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same." You're not really making a cogent argument against my point here. This statement directly contradicts the "we were made, then unmade." If it was always fixed, they couldn't have been made, they always existed, they can't be splinters of Odium, which is not possible. This point is self-contradictory. Your definition of fixed is far too rigid. They go to Braize and the Heralds that have broken have already given up their pain from the torture, making the burden worse for the rest of them. Without all ten, the remaining Heralds successively succumbed more quickly. One Odium has taken their pain, they can't take it back and can't share the burden anymore, making it that much harder for other Heralds. There's nothing definitive in the evidence that disproves what I'm saying or supports yours. In my view, it makes more sense that the breaking is a process of elimination rather than "for some strange reason it wasn't the same herald who broke every time, the other Heralds progressively got weaker then the one who broke before them causing the desolations to get closer together. That has no Logical basis for me to look at and understand.

I still disagree here. The neurologist is only involved because there is already an impairment. Someone who does not feel impaired, or who has not presented symptoms that show they are a danger to themselves or others, don't seek treatment by a specialist. I still disagree, it's an old Speech and Debate habit that I try to make sure I understand something thoroughly before I discuss it. Brandon has obviously done tons of research into this, and discussions that get us to mirror that research is inherently relevant. It helps us better understand his work and the depth he puts into his writing. After our conversation, I have a new appreciation for this scene in particular: I think it's a clear demonstration, especially given what we know of Dalinar's fathering growing up, of just how affected by the social stigma Renarin has been his whole life, and how validating a moment this is for him, even though he still is having difficulty internally and with his forced hallucinations. I think we can also see some parallels in this scene here: With the basis of perception for his magic, I think the rehabilitation of Renarin's spren will be based on the biopsychosocial model, and this is a clear demonstration of it. Jasnah is rejecting logic, her spren is accepting it as right. It's another reaffirming moment for Renarin, and it's going to eventually have a positive impact on Renarin's 'patient' outcome. The same can be said with Teft. From what I understand of modern research, support from those close to you is what work best for treating addiction, and Bridge Four is his support system and Kaladin says it best:

It's not an implausible interpretation in the slightest. The problem I have with this is where it seems to contradict knowledge that we have. The Mythica states that the spren were endowed with vast powers. Taking things away from them is directly contrary to this, and does not explain how it would expand their powers. Also, the Stormfather refers to the other Bondsmith spren as his siblings, and speaks rather familiarly of the Nighwatcher. My thought is that the third spren is Odium's equivalent, so I'm unsure he wouldn't have access to that spren. Especially since Odium flat out beat through the Stormfather to get into Dalinar's vision. He splintered shards, a spren shouldn't be able to escape him. If their power is aligned with Honor, then no. They've agreed to the Oathpact. That way or the highway, or go against their benefactor's intent.

I feel like making sure we are viewing mental illness correctly through the lens of modern medicine, especially when it comes to cultural differences, is very relevant to the SA. What Brandon is saying here kind of goes hand in hand with the discussion on how social stigmas can affect patient outcomes and internalized views of the disease. Without trying to disrespect your position as moderator, I feel like this is exactly the kind of discussion that Brandon would be wanting us to have in regards to the Stormlight Archives: trying to understand international cultural norms and their effects on mental illness, especially as it relates to how society treating it as a flaw is detrimental to those struggling with their personal burdens. I don't want to co-opt the thread, but at the same time, in the absence of any other discussions getting buried by this, I don't understand how it is a problem. But say the word and I'll withdraw. I just feel like this was the natural progression of the conversation.

Wow, this thread is empty. Seems like I wasn't the only one who thought: "nevermind reacting to part four, I need MAOR!" Still, I want to come back and post my favorite quotes: Nice to have confirmation of the magical origin of Szeth's screams. Long had that theory. Maybe the Shin think stone is holy simply because they revere the spren of stone. This seems to imply Urithiru would have no spren. Soulcast, or something else? So perfect gemstones can be created. At one point I want to find every mention of the perfect Rosharan gemstones. King's Drop. Honor's Drop (also a ruby, possible the King's Drop?) Benval Diamond is another candidate. The rest of the gems? Anyone know what the chain might be? Pattern is the best spren. Syl is pretty good too. She just sometimes exhibits behaviour that makes me very wary, reminds me of people in my life I cut out because of the ways they tried to manipulate me. I wasn't a fan of her trying to break up Adolin and Shallan. Pattern! So were all the perfect gemstones just chunks of the Stone of Ten Dawns?

I'll bring my thoughts over here instead of starting a new topic. First off, here's all the information I think is relevant. Spoiler for length. So basically, I'm also subscribing to the "unmade are created by broken Heralds theory." The basic underlying theory looks like this: The Unmade were splintered spren of Odium, thereby satisfying the "made" from Sja-Anat, and the information from the Mythica. The parts of them that were unmade were what was taken from the Heralds. When a Herald 'breaks' I think it is the same process by which he was attempting to make Odium his champion, or Amaram. He was trying to get them to give up their emotions into the void. I don't want to speculate too deeply into what it was they are giving, but lets assume that it is somehow similar to a cognitive shadow, or a splinter of the Heralds themselves. This splinter is then given to the spren splinter of Odium. This creates a being who was "made and unmade," "specific spren ," "endowed with great powers," are manifestations of "concepts, diving forces, and individuals." I see two solutions for that, (and actually tha WoB was the reason I made this theory.) I also then would subscribe to the theory that they are matched to the Heralds, which can be viewed to satisfy the WoB about the Diagram, that they are not analogous, but rather, derivative. The mindless unmade would be the oldest, the ones who gave into the pain most quickly. Their prisons would be in the gem from each of their orders. Their derivations would be from the attributes. Neragoul then would be associated with the Dustbringers. Brave/Obedient is deviated into bloodlust and mindlessness. Yelignar would be associated with Skybreakers due to the swallowing of a smokestone. Just/confident. I don't have enough information to seperate Yelignar's influence from Amaram/Aesudan to properly disect this. I would pair Moelach with the truthwatchers for Learned/giving seems to fit nicely with the derivation of giving people images of the future as they die. Bondsmiths are another possibility, especially if Ishar is as mad as he seems to be, and pious guiding fits here. Ashertmarn I would pair with either Truthwatchers or Bondsmiths. Gluttony could be a derivation of either learned and giving or pious and guiding considering the context of him targeting the ardentia. I am tempted to pair Ba-Ado-Misharm with the Windrunners simply because she was said to be a commander in the Mythica, and that is parallel with protecting/leading. Attacking/commanding. Re-Shephir seems an obvious analog with Lightweavers, as she was captured by them, and seems to parallel their powers in some ways. Creativity and honesty is derived into imitating and misunderstanding. Sja-Anat would be analogous with edgedancers. Loving and healing becomes corrupting and creating. The mythica page says her twisted creations are her beloved children. That only leaves the ninth unmade for the Willshapers. Dai-Gonarthis? () But what about Taln? What about the WoB that show there will not be a tenth undmade? I see two solutions. The second are why i decided to research this theory. Solution 1: The Stormfather is wrong, Taln never broke, the desolation came anyway. Nalan thinks bonding spren could cause it to come faster. so it's not impossible. Ulim says that he escaped. Taravangian in the Diagram confuses this by saying the desolation can and will sit where it wishes, but then also states that Taln's will must be wearing down. We know that Odium takes emotion from people, and Nalan seems to have been affected by this, as he no longer feels any emotion, and yet in Taln's interlude in WoR he describes still feeling pain, and when interacting with Ash he definitely showed a lot of positive emotions. Taln also says he's late, which seems weird. Still, all in all, I find this unlikely. Solution 2: Taln's splinter will inhabit Odium's champion. Taln has proven himself to be the champion among Heralds, the strongest of will, most resolute, and hinted to be the most proficient in battle (he picks hopeless battles and wins.) He's too good for an unmade, he's lasted centuries under torture. His pain, his emotion, his passion for Roshar is unmatched among gods and men. He cannot be bonded to a mere spren. He needs to have a place of honor among the servants of Odium. I think that had Dalinar given his pain and guilt over to Odium, that he would have been endowed with whatever splinter of Taln Odium had removed from him in the breaking, and that would have given Dalinar incredible power, beyond that of the Unmade, as he is a human and not a spren. This is also why there isn't a tenth unmade, as it wasn't made of a spren, but rather of a human to be his Champion in the physical realm instead of the cognitive. The figure with nine shadows. The champion imbued with the greatest of all the powers that made the Unmade. All of the others are pale comparisons to him, mere shadows in his wake. Taln's dependability and resourcefulness corrupted by Odium into an incredible force, distilled, and placed into the Blackthorn, the greatest military force Roshar has ever known, leading the Unmade at the front lines of battle. The world would tremble at the first fall of his sword.

Finished researching, sorry for double posting. I also have a bit more time to be more specific in my disagreement So from my understanding of the biopsychosocial model, both in mental Disorders and broader medicine, it's not about diagnosis criteria and is more about addressing the broader range of variables that affect treatment and patient outcomes. As I said in the bottom of my earlier post, there are certain mental health situations where I would likely agree there isn't a underlying pathophysiology, but hallucinations have an underlying pathophysiology that causes audio/visual input to the brain that is not caused by outside stimuli. Western medicine, in the broader sense, is not rejecting biopsychosocial approaches to medicine, in fact, as a paramedic, part of my training is to look for signs of some of those behavioral and social factors as one of the only care providers who sees patients in their homes. This is not something I agree with, however, your statement leads me to believe you are confusing pathophysiology with physiology. Physiology is the normal functions of the body whereas pathophysiology is the disordered physiological process associated with disease or injury. Structural changes to the brain as a result of outside stimuli is a physiological response, not a pathophysiology. (It's a feature not a bug.) An example of a pathophysiology would be the occlusion of a blood vessel in the brain from an embolus in a stroke, causing reduced blood flow to the brain. My main problem with this is the use of the term 'disordered.' it implies a medical definition that does not, to my knowledge, exist. Both clinicians would address symptoms and look for a root cause. I don't think either would argue with each other that there is an underlying pathophysiology causing the hallucinations. Can you explain what you mean by calling someone "disordered?" Here again, I'd like to know what you mean specifically by calling someone disordered. The basic definition is a disruption of normal physical or mental functions; a disease or abnormal condition. I cannot fathom a clinician who believes that their patient is experiencing true audio and visual hallucinations and does not have an underlying disorder. I guess I don't understand here, and would need a specific case study to fully engage. If someone experiencing hallucinations approaches a psychologist for treatment, I assume there is some impairment. Does your text give specifics for why the hesitancy? We aren't completely culturally tactless in the US. We don't just tell people who may say that they believe AV hallucinations have a spiritual origin that they are wrong, but our hesitancy comes more from a patient advocacy side as we don't want to break the trust between caregiver and patient and want to ultimately help them by getting past those trust barriers where we can aggregate all the information available to make a complete diagnosis without making the patient feel as though we are dismissing their spiritual beliefs, and then if we see other associated symptoms, we tactfully broach the subject. It also is important to have an understanding of those underlying cultural norms to separate what may be "true AV hallucinations" and what may be religious experiences that are similar in nature. I think it's important that even in these cultures, there are cases where they demonstrate a clear understanding of what demonstrates religious experiences and what constitutes hallucinations. By using the word "hallucinations," it leads me to the assumption that the pt is experiencing "true AV hallucinations" recognized within the culture as abnormal. (https://priceonomics.com/how-culture-affects-hallucinations/) if that's not your intention there, I apologize for misunderstanding. As far as the biopsychosocial model vs miomedical model for treatment of mental Disorders, I do lean that way, and I wasn't trying to imply that medication is the only way to treat mental disorders. I personally don't treat my own clinical depression with medication, preferring to focus on behavioral and social aspects (I haven't had much luck changing internally through mental exercises.) I was very interested in how the social response to mental illness seems to have a large effect on whether the symptoms were positive or negative, is this possibly what you were getting at? Spoiler for length Even still, the issue here isn't that, culturally, they don't have underlying disease processes defined or diagnosed, but that the associated symptoms are positive, and so the biopsychosocial model again here demonstrates not a reluctance to diagnose, but rather that the way diagnosis and cultural response to the symptoms and the diagnosis has a large effect on patient disposition and outcomes.

@aemetha I'm an American, and Midwest at that, so I'm especially insulated from anything except Hispanic culture. I'm going to remove myself from the conversation for now and do some research. You've given me a great starting off point. I'll come back when I feel like I've got a better understanding of the concepts. Thanks for being patient with me.

I think we might be arguing over specific definitions here. I find it hard to believe that a psychologist would argue that hallucinations would not have a disorder associated. Not a behavioral impairment, but physicians do the same thing all the time. I diagnosed myself with a heart disorder, but had to prove to the cardiologist it was symptomatic before they would treat it, that doesn't mean there wasn't an underlying disorder if it didn't cause me symptoms and wasn't worth treating. Being asymptomatic does not dismiss an underlying disorder. Maybe I'm not understanding the biopsychosocial approach. Do you have any sources you'd recommend? 'Disorder' has a very specific definition that is unchanged by cultural perceptions of those underlying pathophysiological processes.

My favorite moment was when Jasnah's love didn't fail. There were so many moments in the book where she presented herself in an unfavorable light. This was just such a great reinforcement of her core character. Jasnah's love did not fail.

If there are hallucinations there is an underlying pathophysiology that can be measured with an EEG and diagnosed. I'm not sure I agree with this from a medical standpoint. There are definitely proven pathophysiologies for mental and behavioral disorders. There are certain specific instances where else might agree on this, but changing culture doesn't change underlying medical conditions.

It's probably a reasonable assumption that Nalan got Nightblood from the Nightwatcher. Maybe Zahel asked for the ability to invest Stormlight for Breath and his curse was losing Nightblood?

This seems to be a Nightwatcher thing, not a general people thing.