thejopen27

Is it possible Taln still has his blade, it's just not summoned? I don't know why it wouldn't have disappeared at the end of WoK but now has. It may be a false mystery, a misdirect. The only other possibility I see, if Hoid doesn't have it, is that Hoid hid it.

I think Shinovar is protected by more than just it's mountains. But I think it will do unusually high damage. Also I know the Everstorm is less powerful than a Highstorm, but how much less? A hurricane instead of one giant rapidly moving front, It seems to be more chaotic and have much more lightening, plus there's the Parshmen awakening. I would also be surprised if there were Parshmen in Shinovar. I have not read any of Oathbringer yet.

Remember, Chasmfiends don't normally live out on the Shattered plains, they only come there to pupate.Unless they just live in the unclaimed hills and no one sees them, I think they must live much of their life in the ocean and come on land to reproduce and pupate. Shallan says that their chrysalis looks most like the chrysalis of the Yu-nerig which is an aquatic greatshell and all other greatshells we've heard of are at least partly aquatic. The Tai-na live half submerged, the Yu-nerig lives mostly in the Reshi sea, the Santhid is entirely aquatic, and the Lanceryn was known to be found on an island. As for surviving on the plains, they may curl up on the top of a plateau of just wedge themselves ninja-style bracing against both walls to keep themselves our of the water.

Many of the Radiants seem to have some kind of mental ability. Shallan can see things that have happened elsewhere in the world. She draws the crew of the Winds' Pleasure washing ashore several days after they must have done this, shortly after she thought of them while sketching without thinking and she draws a woman (probably the Herald Shallash) smashing a statue of her own face right after she prayed to Shallash. Kaladin can ride the storms and speak to the Stormfather during the storms. While doing this he can see what is going on, what conflicts and fighting is going on around the world. Dalinar gets visions of the past direct from the Almighty and something happened at the end of Words of Radiance that was different, some kind of vision of his own past. I am also not sure what is happening to Renarin. We know too little about how his abilities work but he appears to have some visions of the future. Lift seems to have some supernatural ability to communicate and empathize with, to understand, people both verbally and emotionally.

Ahh... being called a zealot by the guy defending slavery, AT THE TIME, because they didn't know better. Ignorance is not a defense for an individual, why should it be a defense for a society? The fact that the majority (or at least the ones in power) was fine with with a practice doesn't mean that practice was moral. Look at it from a human level. You're ignoring my main argument, you're acting like the people enslaved, raided, murdered, burned out of their land, raped, beaten, whipped, stolen from their families, pressed into military service didn't have a valid claim to humanity. You're claiming no one new it was wrong, are you claiming there were no victims? Were they too stupid to weep for their murdered children? To ignorant to revolt against tyrannical ruler-ship? Did slaves passively allow themselves to be captured because it was accepted at the time? Why are you pretending they weren't human beings who had human desires and concerns and what they most people wanted above all was to be left alone and in peace. What people view as immoral is individual to that person. Does Kaladin find Slavery moral? Does he think the Lighteyes are in right to be in power? Kaladin has been brutally treated by those in power in his society. Does he have to shrug his shoulders and let it go, because it's the commonly accept position? You're right, Kelsier should have left the Lord Ruler in power and the Skaa enslaved. It was morally accepted at the time. Having good intentions or believing something is acceptable doesn't excuse every possible crime, actions have consequences. Didn't your high school English class have the "What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right." poster on the wall?

And yes, I'm uncomfortable that Shallan is keeping Slaves, even though she is paying them well, and shortening their sentences, and even though Brandon makes it clear they are likely debtors who entered slavery as punishment (I doubt they had a fair trial or were able to defend themselves, if they had any choice it was probably between death and slavery), and even though she offered to let them run, I am still uncomfortable that she kept them. Two characters so far have unexpectedly come into possession of a number of slaves in the Stormlight archive. One kept them as Slaves, bu agreed to pay them well, one freed them all, and then offered them well paying jobs. One just feels better to me.

You're right, no religion has ever condoned an immoral act before. Religions are rules people invent to justify their actions and explain what they can't understand, the old testament especially was essentially the creation myth, history, and laws of a particular tribe/people who lived on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean.The argument did exist then, it happened when a slave ran away, or led a revolt against their oppressor. Yes the Romans had tons of slaves, and they fought several famous wars against angry people tired of being enslaved. The Turks had slaves, for a brief period the Slave Soldiers took control of the whole empire and set themselves up as lords. Colonists of Hispaniola had slaves, a group of escaped slaves came one night, set all the other slaves free and they burned out and killed and fought until there were no more masters of on the western half of the island. Did these people think Slavery was ok at the time? In the bible, how did the Israelites feel about slavery when they were in Egypt? I can bring this into the cosmere, was it OK for the Ska to be enslaved in Mistborn? Their religion condoned it, society found it broadly acceptable, the only people who really seemed to complain were a few idealistic students and the people enslaved. Does Kaladin condone slavery? Does he find it acceptable because people in his time find it acceptable? His religion condones it. The people in power condone it. If you asked Kaladin his opinion on slavery, I think you'd get a discussion. The people in power don't have the conversation, we don't see conversations about it often in history, but no one asked the enslaved. You can't judge whether something is or isn't wrong on whether the person doing it thinks it's wrong. They do it because they either don't know it's wrong, or they have to much invested in it to admit it's wrong, or to act on their conscience.

The philosopher Lift talks to is a Aimian named Arclo. He doesn't say AImian, he says sleepless, but he does name himself as Arclo. I think the Herald Nale is talking to is Kelek. My Ishar theories: Tezim, the Tukari Godpriest The Crazy beggar Axies meets in the alley way in Kasitor Restares, the leader of the Sons of Honor

Yes, like the shower thing. Slide around, but unable to disengage. Although I don't think Kaladin could stick something invested to a wall.

Are you trying to say Slavery wasn't bad then because it was useful? Or that it wasn't bad because people didn't think it was bad? It was always bad, it was always wrong. Some people didn't know it was wrong, some did but thought it was convenient, and some always knew it was wrong. As long as there have been slaves, there have been slave revolts and slave uprisings and runaways. That's how I know it was always wrong, people always tried to escape. Slave masters always fought against banning slavery, they always had to be defeated in war, or completely overwhelmed politically to agree to give up slavery, no people voluntarily give it up. You know how I know it's wrong in Stormlight? The main character hates it and tries to escape until the will is beaten out of him. Seriously dude?

I agree with you. I agree Kaladin couldn't have known. I guess my argument was that if he had realized, he wouldn't have struck. If Szeth dropped his weapon, and begged Kaladin to kill him, he wouldn't do it. I'm also saying I think that Brandon didn't need to change the scene to get his point across. However, I think it works better dramatically for Szeth to disconnect from the bond with the blade and fall back into the storm to fall to his death. It also makes more sense that way for Nale to get there in time to revive him.

Why are you assuming that Nale was right? The Desolation came anyway, Nale didn't recognize the signs. The Spren all know the stakes but came anyway. I think Nale has been lied to.

So is voidbinding just bonding a Spren to fill a void? The Listeners bind various types of spren to fill a void in them that they need filled to function. If there is nothing in that void, they are in slave form. They can bond inert spren (spren who lend no specific form) to ascend to dull form (if you left Parshman out in a highstorm would they become dull form?). They can bond specific spren to attain various useful forms. i.e. Work form, War form, Nimble form, Mate form, possibly art form, scholar form, or mediation form. And they can bond void spren to take the forms of power; Storm Form, Smoke form, night form, and decay form. Voidbinding differs from Surgebinding in that a surgebinder has to be broken, and a spren seeps into the cracks, while a Listener (and various wildlife) have a void that needs to be filled to function. The Greatshells and the skyeels may also be using voidbinding. A Spren has bonded with them to reduce the effect of gravity on them and to give them some level of sentience. Were the Ryshadium also made using Voidbinding? I may be completely wrong, or maybe this has all already been discussed. But I was more or less just musing.

Well you shouldn't kill someone who has given themselves up. I don't believe it was possible for Kaladin to react in time, but I would feel bad about attacking someone who has left themselves open intentionally.

Good in society comes from individuals choosing to do the right thing more often than not when a moment of decision comes to them. Humanity is composed of individuals who make individual choices that effect everyone. Too many people making negative choices drags down everyone, enough doing the right thing raise us up. Occasionally one person will balance on a tipping point with their individual choice able to echo down through time effecting everything. I don't believe good or evil are permanent states. Szeth isn't permanently evil. Neither is Taravangian. But they are now. The problem with consequentialism, is what if you're wrong? What if you fail in the end. You've done all these terrible things, that potentially weaken your cause, give your opponents dirt on you, drive allies away from you, and hurt innocents who got in the way and then you fail, or you were wrong. Taravangian being vindicated relies on him being right AND him being successful. Otherwise he is weakening humanity in an hour of need and murdering innocent people for no reason.

It's essentially the Pilgrims and the Indians on Thanksgiving, only to fight wars later on with their ancestors. + Magic and different species. The humans even took all their land and enslaved them.

I think the Shin are keeping old ways alive. They guard the honor blades, they know something of the Heralds, they know about surges and radiants. I wouldn't be surprised if Shin was like the Dawnchant because it never morphed as much because they still know it in SHinovar. I think Shinovar is an area of Roshar protected from storms and kept more Earthlike by Cultivation. She has cultivated a perfect garden and a cradle for humanity. She may no longer be actively doing this and it may just be a permanent protection.

You're right about what Brandon said. I just don't think that Brandon needed to change it if he didn't want Kaladin to kill Szeth. It doesn't even read like Szeth forcing Kaladin to kill him, it reads like Szeth intentionally missing a block so that a testing slash by Kaladin kills him instead. In Kaladin's POV Kaladin had a counter planned after Szeth blocked it, but Szetth didn't block it.

NO, he's a monster either way, he may save people in the end (although if you have read Brandon, than you should know Taravangian is not the hero of this story) but he will always be a monster. Good intentions don't justify bad actions, good ends don't justify evil means, whether we are a good or bad person is the result of the sum of our actions. I think even Taravangian, who has completely bought into his own belief system, would never think of himself as a hero. At best he considers himself a necessary evil. A hard man for a hard time. I doubt the main philosophy of Brandon Sanderson is Nihilism and consequentialism. If your cowardice leads you to persistently do evil, than I don't see a difference.It's not who we are on the inside, but what we do that defines us. If someone consistently does good actions, even if they are only doing them to earn money, or trick someone into thinking they're good, has done good and the world is still a better place. Someone who does bad things, of their own free will, but for a good reason, has still done only bad things. I empathize with Szeth, I can understand the path he has taken, but i don't sympathize with him. His actions, taken of his own free will, have caused terrible evil, and aided even greater evil. I will grant that if Szeth has truly stopped following whatever awful orders he is given, stopped blaming others for his actions, even if they ordered him to do them, than he is no longer evil. But it will take a lot of work for him to makes amends for his crimes.

He was already an educated man, who had spent his whole life in the worlds largest library. I interpret the day of the diagram as his smartest possible self (with no empathy) making logical connections, extrapolations, estimations, and leaps of logic on a massive scale. Connecting things that others in universe can't see any connection between. He essentially did what we do as a hive-mind on the forums. He gathered all the available data and processed it extremely quickly and made giant leaps in logic. I think that logic will be flawed because I think his smartest self has underestimated humanity. I do not trust Taravangian's smartest self. I think there is a chance the diagram is a self fulfilling prophecy. The diagram may be fulfilled only because the diagram was actively implemented. If Taravangian hadn't sewn so much chaos maybe there would be another way to solve the problem. Maybe Moeloch's death rattles are intentionally messing with the diagram, leading them to the worst possible conclusions. I will concede that it's possible that Odium pushed Taravangian somehow down a darker path in his logic. And in the end, Taravangian persists in doing things he knows are wrong because some book, that he can't remember writing or why he wrote it, tells him to. In the end, Taravangian will either be wrong, and there will be another way to save humanity, or there was another way to save humanity but Taravangian's plan was so destructive at first, that there is no other way out after he has caused so much damage.

I disagree with that theory, at least if they're both Braize.

I believe he created it alone. I believe he was incredibly, impossibly smart. I believe he is wrong that it is the only solution. He understands empathy, what it is and why it's useful. He just doesn't have any.

Evil actions overpower good actions. If someone saves 100s of children, but picks one of them to kidnap and murder than their good does not outweigh the bad. I think you have misunderstood me. Denth was bad the whole time. Vivenna, while being counseled to do evil by Denth was doing evil. Had she not taken time to atone and undo the evil she had done, but instead walked away and just plead ignorance, she would have allowed evil to win. Point of view tricks us into thinking characters are justified when they're not. Szeth is never justified in following his awful orders. He should have abandoned his Oathstone or allowed himself to be killed years ago, but he is too weak. too cowardly. Just because someone has a justification or excuse, just because it makes sense to them, doesn't mean that it wasn't evil. Everyone is the hero of their own story, yes. But some people should know better, and some are lying to themselves. Szeth is especially awful because he knows what he does is wrong, knows he shouldn't be doing it, AND knows there is no greater reason for it, but he does it anyway. He is the worst combination of "just following orders" and "my religion justifies me doing evil things" Szeth, as Kaladin accurately points out, is a coward. He is too weak to do what he knows is right. He uses his code as an excuse to not stand-up for what he knows he should do. "I was just following orders." isn't an excuse. Szeth was too proud to risk his "Honor" to stop following terrible orders he knew all along were evil.

Isn't this the point Brandon was trying to make with Warbreaker? That we can be tricked into thinking evil actions are right because we see them from the characters point of view. What Denth does isn't less evil because in the beginning we see it from his point of view. Vashar is the villain of Denth's story, but Vashar is trying to stop a war and save thousands of lives, Denth is trying to start a war for money and kill Vashar in revenge. Have you never read a book or watched a movie, show where you got to the end and realized the main character was the villain the whole time?

Taravangian has already made the arguement against himself. On his smartest days, they don't allow him to change laws because of his lack of humanity and empathy. It is his own rule. Yet he follows himself on his smartest day, theoretically his day with the least empathy. The only path the super genius with no empathy could think of was one of allowing 99 out of 100 to die. What paths did he not even consider because of his lack of empathy? Did his lack of understanding of humanity cause mistakes, blind spots? The desire to save as many as we can in a disaster is part of the thing that allows us to think of creative solutions. What did Taravangian not consider because he discarded human lives as unimportant? Feeling regret for evil actions doesn't exonerate you. Ym committed a crime in his youth, his regret doesn't redeem him, but perhaps his actions of charity and love do. Feeling regret for an evil act doesn't redeem someone. Only actions taken to correct that act, or if that's impossible, stop others from doing similar things is the only thing that can redeem an evil act. Vashar/Zahel/Warbreaker/Kalad has lived for hundreds of years trying to undo the wrong he did in his early days.