thejopen27

But if they just gave up, why did they all do it at once? Why shatter their oaths and kill their Spren. I also think Nalan has been mislead because

*Just reread that chapter, Vstim says he doesn't know if shed ever walk again and both her legs are shattered. I think Stormlight would help that. I think information about how Larkin and Radiants were connected will help us know where Rsyn fits in. I also think the other candidate for Willshaper, if it is possible, is Eshonai. I don't know if it's possible for Listeners to become Radiants, and Eshonai implies that they cannot, I think Eshonai really fits well with the Willshapers.

I'm talking about the Radiants, not the Heralds. The Recreance was perhaps hundreds or thousands of years after the final desolation. Who were the Radiants fighting against so long after the Desolation. Were they embroiled in inter-kingdom politics? Were they forced to slaughter innocents in war? Without their higher purpose were they slowly tarnished by the mud of human struggle?

I think Rysn is on her way to becoming a Knight Radiant. I think this is why the Larkin chose her. I think her adventurous nature and ironically her Bbasks teachings about respecting and understanding other cultures, embracing novelty and oddity will lead here to become a Willshaper. She has shown Resolve and I think the Willshapers were the Radiants who built trust amongst different cultures and settled disputes. Any other thoughts on which order if any she wil become?

But they all gave up? All at once? They all willingly killed their Spren and abandoned Roshar to war and chaosin their absence?

That's more or less what I meant, except that I think Killing all the Listeners would have already been abandoning their Oaths. Killing innocents because they might become dangerous later is a pretty clear violation of Life before death, journey before destination part. And I don't believe the Radiants cause the desolations thing, or at least not entirely. Spoilers for Edgedancer:

So we learn that the Heirocracy was an out of control, corrupt preisthood opressing the people and the Sun Maker cast down the arrogant Heirocracy and freed the people of Vorin Roshar from the twisted Dogma of the Vorin Church. Here is the entire entry in the Coppermind for the War of Loss; Who was the Vorin Church before the War of Loss? Who won the war? Who told this version of the story? Cui bono? I think the post Recreance Vorin church emerged from the servants, priests, and remnants of the Radiants. I think they stepped into the leadership gap left by the Recreance of the Radiants. Who steps in when the most powerful class in a society, a class that functions as the priests, leaders, generals, scholars, artists, champoins, judges, and heroes of the society, a class that is bound by supernatural oaths to act honorably stops functioning. Someone needs to step in. And the most logical choice initially would be the people closest to the Radiants. I also think that once those people gained power they would try to keep it and therefore try to associate themselves with the Radiants of old while distance themselves from the Recreant Radiants, they would try to hide information. When the Roman empire collapsed in the west the highest power left was the Roman Catholic Church and the church became the power in western Europe. Just like the Nobility of Europe chaffed under the Roman church, I think the nobility of Eastern Roshar didn't like being underneath the Vorin Church. Side note: I don't think being Lighteyed means anything except that the Radiants had Light Eyes and were maybe called Light Eyes and I think the Nobility became those who had lighter eyes through a misunderstanding and because they associated themselves with the Radiants and shardbearers all having lighter eyes, but not Light eyes like the Radiants. I think that the War of Loss was a Civil war between the first estate, the clergy of the Vorin Church who were in charge, and the second estate, the Nobility. I think the Sunmaker was an Alethi Prince who subjugated, allied with, and persauded the other Alethi Nobility to help him overthrow the Priests to elevate the Nobility over the priests. I don't think it was a high minded war for freedom of thought, I think it was a petty war to see who got to be in charge. And in a move that imitated the enslavement of the Listeners after the last Desolation, the Nobility enslaved the priests and used them to tell their version of history where the church was lying and hiding things from the people (although this may be partially true). It was just a power struggle between the Nobility and the Priesthood. Not that the Priesthood would have been any better than the lighteyes. Kaladin, Sigzil, and Moash's discussions on what would happen if the darkeyes overthrew the lighteyes, the Babatharnum and their eldest rule society illustrate this. I just want to point out that the war probably wasn't what the lighteyes say it was and that we should look at who is telling history and why they would tell it how they tell it.

No, we see it's aftermath. The Windrunners and Stonewards show up and abandon their plate and blades. Maybe the Windfrunners and the Stonewards refused to participate, but resigned in disgust. I don't know, It's just a guess.

I think they continued on some kind of war to wipe out the Listeners, but when they won and enslaved them, that caused their oaths to break en masse.

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. The Knights Radiant adhere to the philosophy that the ends do not and never will justify the means. Unlike Taravangian who is committing atrocities in the name of "The Greater Good" the KnightsRadiant are forced to work the hard way by living by ideals and honorably. But the Radiants en masse (except perhaps the Skybreakers) broke their oaths on the same day. This was after the Desolations had ended and resulted in the Nahel bonds failing and the Spren abandoning mankind. We know that a war was going on right before the Recreance and that the Radiants were fighting in the war and after they abandoned their blades and plates and left from what we see in Dalinar's vision in WoK (At least the Windrunners and theStonewards). What is something that would break the oaths of all of the knights at once, something that the Knights could be convinced was worth doing that would be dishonorable, that was for the Greater Good, that took the easy path. An unethical action that all the knights would do. I see two possibilities and they're related. There are two events that have happened in the past that require great power and would seem to break the Knights first ideal. One is the shattering of the shattered plains. The other is the enslaving of the Listeners. I don't think it is a conincidence that the last free listeners live on the edge of the kingdom that was shattered by someone. I think Natanatan may have been figthing a war with the Listeners before the Listeners of Narak fled and abandoned civilzation, culture, and the forms and retreated into the wilderness in Dull Form. I think the Radiants were called in to stop the war of join the war and were somehow convinced that the Listeners would bring on another Desolation. I think the Radiants may have been convinced to make a preemptive strike to avoid the Desolation that may or may not be coming and destroy the Listeners entirely before they could summon a Desolation. So they shattered the Area around Stormseat by working together somehow and enslaved all the other Listeners. This stopped the threat, but was such an abhorent, deplorable, dishonorable act, such an egregious breach of the first Ideal that the Radiants agreed to do that it broke all their oaths beyond repair. I haven't put all the pieces together and I don't think we know enough. This is just a hypothesis. I think what broke the oaths was the result of either the breaking of Stormseat to stop the Listeners, or the enslavement of the Parshmen.

I think that may have been the Radiants themselves. That seems like something "For the Greater Good" that the Radiants might have done that would count as breaking the first Ideal. The enslavement of the Parshmen was monstrous. It may have been necessary (or perceived to be necessary) but it was terrible and monstrous and clearly in violation of the first Ideal.

Yes, I mis-typed the first part, I'll go correct it. They only took the Tana part to more easily fit their Palindrome, They butcher most of the Herlads names to fit the Palindrome, why not Tanavast's. Many langauges shuffle back and forth the Th and T sounds in words e.g. Thomas.

but we do, Scadrial had Atium and Lerasium, Nalthis has the tear of Edgli, Sel has Aeons and Skaze, on Roshar Honor/the Almighty is known in Vorinism as Elithanathile which is Elin+Tanvast+Palindromes. The Shard holders names are almost always known on their planet, even if the people don't know it.

Szeth having questions is good. He was too sure when he was Truthless. I actually don't think Szeth will end up as a Skybreaker. I think mindlessly following laws will not hold appeal for Szeth anymore. Maybe Dustbringer?

I really like this because it looks like Kholinar will be in a Darkeyed revolt and Kaladin will have to choose between protecting lighteyes and darkeyes. Order vs. freedom. Can he find a middle path? Can he avoid a revolution even though in other circumstances he might lead it? My guess is that Taravangian will be pushing the revolution and Kaladin will need to lead them to a peaceful resolution.

I actually saw Szeths actions here as a ray of light. I thought he was beyond saving, but his actions in Edgedancer gave me hope.

I think Nightblood is giving Szeth a color aura like the returned of Nalthis and it's faint, but Lift either through her cognitive sensitivity or being a Radiant can see it.

I agree, I don't think it is time or torture, or rather that their breaking of the Oarhpact and the reemergence have Odium have caused all their issues to manifest

I think Ishar has betrayed the other Heralds and and everyone else to Odium.

No, I agree he is the Herald Nalan, but is it possible that Nalan, has bonded a Spren instead of going back for his shardblade, and it is another Herald who has taken his blade.

maybe a bit taller

I am convinced that Ym and Stump for sure are becoming Truthwatchers. Renarin I'm less sure, but still pretty sure. The attributes of Paliah and the Truthwatchers are Learned and Giving. Both Stump and Ym are demonstrating the giving trait while they learn about the people in their lives, while Renarin demonstrates the Learned more obviously and he has shown a willingness to help, even if he isn't as openly charitable as Stump and Ym. It has been implied that some Spren (including Cultivationspren) have only sent one spren to bond but we don't know if that's true for any of them. What if Ym's Spren went in search of a new bondmate after Ym died who showed the same attributes as Ym, while another Lightspren?? was looking for a more learned person to bond. Wyndle implies that he is the only Cultivationspren currently bonded and the attributes of Truthwatchers (Learned, Giving) soundvery similar to Edgedancers (Loving, Healing). It would make sense that Cultivationspren and (Lightspren?) would consider similar candidates. Kaladin was a less terrible life away from being a Skybreaker, If Dalinar thought more like a soldier and less like a general he might be a Windrunner. If Shallan hadn't been so creative she could have been a Truthwatcher. I also think that the Spren of Ym and Stump sound like a cross between the crystals of Cultivationspren and the patterns of Cryptics.

I think its just slight differences, but Rock might be 8 ft tall as he is noted as over seven Alethi feet. Kaladin I bet is 6'8"ish.

I thought at first that the Captain of the gate was going to turn out to be the Radiant, possibly a Dustbringer.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but when he opens the box, isn't their shimering light seen? Anyways, Both Ym's spren and Glys are shy but have to hide because they can't be invisible, while Wyndel is definately invisible. Wyndel is also pretty talkative and forward, just like Lift, while all the Truthwatchers we've seen have been very shy, introspective, or in Stump's case, curt. I will bet you that Lift is the only Edgedancer we've seen thus far. Also Wyndel seemed to react when Stump described her spren as if he was disappointed but not surprised to see it wasn't a Cultivationspren.