Who will be the 'interlude novella' character for book 5?

[MasterGhandalf]

As we're all familiar with by now, each of the Stormlight books has, in addition to the main POV characters, a recurring interlude POV who gets their own mini-arc spanning the novel. Now that we have four main novels under our belts (and only one to go in the front five), I'd started thinking some about the traits those characters have in common to see if I could figure out who the most likely interlude POV for the fifth book will be. Looking back, there do seem to be some traits that the 'interlude novella' characters have shared. For one thing, they've all been antagonists to some degree (though Taravangian is the only one I'd go so far as to call an outright villain). They've also all been someone we've met in previous books rather than a new character (Szeth is the obvious exception, though one could still argue we met him in the prologue before the book proper); with the exception of Taravangian, they've also generally not been POV characters before. Their storyline also tends to be somewhat separate from everyone else's in content (and often geography) but nonetheless get tied together with the book's main plots by the end. With those traits in mind, I can think of a couple of characters who might fit for the interludes for book five. 

 

The one who most immediately springs to mind is Moash/Vyre, who's been left in a bit of a bind as of the end of RoW, failing to kill Navani or turn Kaladin, forced to confront the emotions he'd thought he'd purged from himself, and been blinded to boot - I can think of a couple of interesting directions his arc might go in. We could also get the POV of a Fused; Leshwi's a possibility there, though the possibilities of El interludes, from the little we've seen of him so far, intrigue me. One of the more intelligent Unmade might also be interesting for a somewhat more inhuman take on things; Sja-anat seems like the obvious choice there. A Ghostblood might be another option, now that we're getting more into the goals of their organization (not to mention its leader...); Mraize would be the obvious choice here, but Iyatil might also work. Finally, we could also get a Herald POV, though Brandon might be wanting to reserve those for the back half, which he's indicated will be more Herald-focused (and any of them probably knows secrets of Roshar and/or the Cosmere at large he's not ready to reveal yet). Ishar might work for this, since he seems set to play a big part in this book with Kal and Szeth being sent to Shinovar to hunt him down; Kalak, Ash, Nale and Battar also jump out at me as possibilities. 

 

Anyone else have thoughts on this, and/or responses to my thoughts? 

[AquaRegia he/him]

I like all of your ideas, and hope we learn more about ALL those characters, especially Leshwi and Sja-Anat.

I'm not a betting man... but if you forced me to bet all my spheres, I'd bet on Gavilar.  Here's why:

 

[Dox Me Kev]

+1 for Gavilar. There’s been a ton of build-up through other POV’s who interacted with him. It’s time we learned how he got those spheres, how he met the Heralds etc. 

[MasterGhandalf]

I hadn't considered Gavilar, mostly because I'd been assuming he was really and completely dead, but if he is still around in some form (maybe some of his experiments with spren and investiture bore fruit after all...) then wouldn't that be interesting... 

[Elegy he/him]

I think Moash is the most likely. He's the most important antagonist that didn't have one yet, except for maybe one that isn't on the list anymore (that being Rayse - most of ROW, I was convinced he would be book 5's interlude character, but that's out of question now).

Just like Taravangian is Dalinar's counterpart and main antagonist, Moash is the same to Kaladin. And since Kaladin is the main character of the front five (with the highest POV word count by far), it would only make sense for his personal main antagonist to be the antagonistic interlude character in the climatic book of the pentagoly.

Additionally, I can't imagine the front five being over and Moash of all people not being an interlude main character ever. It would feel like an odd decision and a wasted chance.

The down-side to this: That would mean that Moash lives at least until the bunch of interludes before the last part of the book. But I guess that's never been unlikely, unfortunate as it is. 

[Shob the Voidbringer]

both moash and gavilar seem likely, you know, both the most hated characters in the book (possibly cosmere, but i'll wait on this till i've finished reading them), and they would be very intriguing, i mean, i can see moash kinda mirroring venli's arc in in RoW, but if it were gavilar, i don't know what to expect, i mean, this guy is cosmere aware, or rather, cosmere active, as in working in the cosmere, with all the possible resources he can, and he's among the most selfish characters we've seen, but he would be new, and it would be hard to give him a nice mini-arc in the interludes, because he's to new for an arc.

[+mdross81 he/him]

While I generally get the consensus view that Moash makes the most sense, there’s one big reason I think it might not be him.
 

The Interludes for each of the four characters we’ve seen so far have, I think, over the course of their respective books, humanized (yes I know it’s weird to use that term given Venli and Eshonai) the antagonists, maybe even redeemed them slightly.

Obviously Brandon will tell the story he wants to tell, but he’s also gotta know that a very large swath of the SA fandom has zero interest in any kind of redemption arc for Moash. I mean it’s probably an appealing challenge as a writer, but I’m not sure I see it.

Of the other options discussed above, either Gavilar or El would certainly be intriguing. I find myself leaning toward it being Nale for some reason.

[Realmatic Shadow]

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I find myself leaning toward it being Nale for some reason.

I know Brandon has said he wants to save the Heralds and their POV for the back 5 books, but I could totally see there being a few interludes and/or chapters from them throughout the book beginning to establish the characters of the ones we've not meet yet, and give somewhere to build from with their viewpoints later in the series

[LuckyJim]

Moash would probably be my first guess, he's the only character I can think of who would really fit this role. Up till now the interlude viewpoints illustrate a character arc that leads up to a major transition in the characters' lives. Szeth returning to his life as the Assassin in White, Eshonai summoning the Everstorm, Venli becoming a Willshaper and Taravangian becoming Odium. After everything that happened in RoW, a major transition is practically inevitable for Moash at this point. As far as his character arc goes, he's got a lot going on and would need some dedicated page time to really unpack everything.

Of course, that was what I thought last book, and boy was I wrong. I'm still tempted to say that it's going to be Moash (second time's the charm) but at this point I'm kind of afraid to make any strong predictions about what Sanderson's plans for Moash are.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Can I say that I hope it’s not Moash? Kaladin already makes me suicidal and Moash thinks in a similarly fatalistic manner. It’s already somewhat dangerous for me to read the books; adding Moash to Kaladin would massively up the risk factor. Why can’t they ever stop being nihilistic and miserable?!

And no, depression is not a good reason for a character to think that way. There are optimistic depressed people. Why can’t people write OPTIMISTIC depressed characters? Is it so hard to imagine that you can be hopeful and depressed?!

[Shob the Voidbringer]

On 2/23/2021 at 5:47 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Can I say that I hope it’s not Moash? Kaladin already makes me suicidal and Moash thinks in a similarly fatalistic manner. It’s already somewhat dangerous for me to read the books; adding Moash to Kaladin would massively up the risk factor. Why can’t they ever stop being nihilistic and miserable?!

And no, depression is not a good reason for a character to think that way. There are optimistic depressed people. Why can’t people write OPTIMISTIC depressed characters? Is it so hard to imagine that you can be hopeful and depressed?!

do you mean switching between optimistic and depressed, because those two are kinda antonyms? i don't really get how some-one could be both at once.

 

[Frustration]

34 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

do you mean switching between optimistic and depressed, because those two are kinda antonyms? i don't really get how some-one could be both at once.

 

That is hugely incorrect.

Sadness is not depression

Depression is the pinacle of Apathy,

the inability to convince yourself that anything matters, the seeting Frustration at being unable to properly interact with the world, everything goes on without you.

It is not sadness, it is much more and it really bugs me when people conflate the two.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

45 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

do you mean switching between optimistic and depressed, because those two are kinda antonyms? i don't really get how some-one could be both at once.

 

Hi! Optimistic person who is depressed once a month for a week! Yes, it’s very possible to be optimistic and depressed.

Depressed means I feel miserable and apathetic. I still focus on the good things around me and still believe that tomorrow will be brighter. And I deliberately go out of my way to do things I love, no matter how lethargic I feel.

Thats why I don’t get Kaladin’s fatalistic mindset. Being depressed has nothing to do with being hopeless. Which is why I have zero patience for Kal’s pessimism. (Or pessimists and pessimism in general.) You don’t get over depression, but pessimism is a state of mind. You can choose what to focus on in your life, no matter how miserable your brain is making you feel.

Depressed optimists have much better outcomes than depressed pessimists, btw. We also manage much better without medication. We’re also healthier in general and less likely to commit suicide. Of course, we’re also much harder to recognize, as our symptoms are less obvious and we’re better at masking them.

[+mdross81 he/him]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Being depressed has nothing to do with being hopeless. Which is why I have zero patience for Kal’s pessimism. (Or pessimists and pessimism in general.) You don’t get over depression, but pessimism is a state of mind. You can choose what to focus on in your life, no matter how miserable your brain is making you feel.

I’m glad that you’re able to maintain an optimistic attitude in dealing with depression. And I don’t mean to derail the discussion, but I think you’re taking way too narrow a view here.

For many of us who suffer from the Teft/Kaladin variant of depression, hopelessness is exactly what depression is about. A sense that no matter how objectively good your life may be, you are worthless, a failure, or destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Maybe with medication and therapy someone who suffers from this form can learn interventions to help them “choose what to focus on” as you put it. But oftentimes we literally cannot choose. It’s not just pessimism.

All that said, I 100% join you in hoping it’s not Moash.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

15 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I’m glad that you’re able to maintain an optimistic attitude in dealing with depression. And I don’t mean to derail the discussion, but I think you’re taking way too narrow a view here.

For many of us who suffer from the Teft/Kaladin variant of depression, hopelessness is exactly what depression is about. A sense that no matter how objectively good your life may be, you are worthless, a failure, or destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Maybe with medication and therapy someone who suffers from this form can learn interventions to help them “choose what to focus on” as you put it. But oftentimes we literally cannot choose. It’s not just pessimism.

All that said, I 100% join you in hoping it’s not Moash.

What studies have found is that people who start out as pessimists are more likely to become depressed. Depression makes the pessimism worse. In fact, several treatments for depression involve training the brain to think like an optimist, because an optimistic mindset helps to manage depression. CBT wouldn’t work very well if depression made thinking optimistically impossible. I’ve managed mine unmedicated and untreated for 17 years by keeping an optimistic mindset.

Natural optimists start out on a higher happiness threshold to start with. And the way we view the world doesn’t change because we’re depressed. It just means we’re simultaneously hopeful and depressed.

So it seems to be that having a more pessimistic mindset is a cause of depression, which is then exacerbated by it. But pessimism is not caused by depression. An optimist does not suddenly become a pessimist simply because they’re depressed. 

Most people with depression are somewhat pessimistic even when not depressed. Then again, there are more pessimists than optimists to begin with. But you can choose to think in optimistic terms; that’s basically what CBT is all about: teaching positive thinking. Optimists just do this already.

Should be noted that an optimist wouldn’t dwell on Tien’s death, as part of optimism is accepting that you cannot control everything. It’s not just a positive mindset; it’s the pure belief that bad is temporary and the world has more good than evil in it. There aren’t that many people who perceive the world and its people as truly good even when they don’t suffer from depression.

Can you really tell me that when you aren’t depressed you truly believe every day will be better than the present? That the people you meet are good people who genuinely want the best for the world? That you can achieve your dreams? That problems are simply things to be overcome or embraced? That your flaws are not insurmountable and that failure is just another step to success? That the world is not out to get you and that you are not responsible for everything? Do you live life in the moment and glory in the day?

Because that’s what it means to be an optimist.  That’s my mindset every day. And depression can make me unhappy, but it can’t stop me from seeing the beauty of the world. Depression doesn’t change my innate nature.

For the record: I kept that mindset while post-partum in the hospital with my dying two month old. There is little as hopeless as watching your child die and knowing there is nothing you can do to save them. And I still had hope. Not that she’d live (although she did) but that I would smile again and something good would come of that day. Because I’m an optimist, and no amount of depression or hopeless circumstance can take away my belief in the future.

Optimism is choosing to trust that no matter what happens, no matter how dark the night, there’s a beautiful sunrise waiting on the horizon. And it will be glorious. 
 

TLDR; Pessimism is a cause and exacerbater  of depression, but it isn’t a direct result of depression. An optimist will be an optimist despite depression and a pessimist will be a pessimist without it. And pessimism, unlike depression, is something that can be changed.

I double checked this with a psychologist, who agreed with this assessment. This isn’t something I invented. Depression has nothing to do with an optimistic or pessimistic mindset, except as an exacerbating factor for the latter.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[Jondesu he/him]

On 2/17/2021 at 0:09 AM, MasterGhandalf said:

I hadn't considered Gavilar, mostly because I'd been assuming he was really and completely dead, but if he is still around in some form (maybe some of his experiments with spren and investiture bore fruit after all...) then wouldn't that be interesting... 

He doesn’t have to still be alive in any way. We got Eshonai flashbacks in RoW and she’s well and truly dead it seems.

[Use the Falchion]

I think the two most likely figures right now are Gavilar - assuming he's revealed to be alive - and El. However, both of these choices mostly rule out their chance at being Odium's Champion in my mind. 

I think Book 5 is likely going to go beyond the Final Ten Days leading up to the Contest of Champions.* The Interlude character appears in all of the parts of the book. Granted, nothing's to say that just because they're interlude characters that they'll only be in Interludes. In fact, we know that to be false. We could easily have the Interlude Character show up as Odium's Champion, and then spend the rest of the interludes dealing with the fallout of the Contest of Champions. But El and Gavilar aren't as built up as other Interlude Characters have been: Szeth was in the prologue; Eshonai made an appearance at the end of TWOK; Moash was a major influence all throughout WOR; and Taravangian had multiple viewpoints and whatnot by the time he was an Interlude Character.

EDIT: OB's interlude character was Venli, not Moash. Still, Venli had been a known presence in WOR. 

El has been mentioned about twice (that we know of) and showed up once in a single chapter. That leaves a LOT of work to be done in the Interludes if he's going to become Odium's Champion. The same is true for Gavilar, but that Kholin has the benefit of being the center of the prologues, even if he's not the main point in certain ones. THAT BEING SAID, I could totally see Gavilar's Prologue having a Wham Ending, with him being alive after death and things going pretty much how he wanted, and then we see what he's up to all throughout the book in Interludes. To us it would look like he's working alongside the main plot, but in the final Interlude, it would be revealed that no, Gavilar was working on something else entirely, and the implications leave us speechless and eager for the second arc. 

Another wildcard choice would be Odium, but I feel that might be too similar to Taravangian's Interludes in ROW. And still another wildcard is Gavinor, if he does indeed become Odium's Champion. He would also provide an interesting perspective on everything going on in the tower. But honestly, despite me believing he'll be Odium's Champion, I'd hate for him to be the Interlude Character.

 

Ultimately, I still think Gavilar and El are likely to be the Interlude Character, but whatever they're doing will be set up for the second half of Stormlight. The interludes simply aren't frequent enough in the book to make Gavilar and El work as Odium's Champion. But Brandon is a far better writer and planner than I am, so who knows what he he's cooking up. 

 

 

*This too is an assumption. Book 5 is as likely to be all about the leadup to the Contest of Champions as anything else. I just think that it would be incredibly difficult to pull off everything within ten days. But hey, maybe every part of the book is two days, and the Epilogue is the next day. Anything is possible.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 7/9/2021 at 10:01 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Moash was a major influence all throughout WOR

Small note: Moash wasn't actually the interlude throughline in OB, that was Venli. Moash had normal chapters.

Edited July 10, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Use the Falchion]

On 7/10/2021 at 3:59 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Small note: Moash wasn't actually the interlude throughline in OB, that was Venli. Moash had normal chapters.

Whoops! Thanks for the correction!

[Rosharan Chicken he/him]

I just realized this topic is dead.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Spoon

[AquaRegia he/him]

It's the Cosmere - "dead" doesn't have to mean DEAD.  Maybe it's a Cognitive Shadow of a topic!  ;-)

[+mdross81 he/him]

Perhaps we can revive it a bit with a suggestion I don't see among those above. You know who might be a good pick? Renarin.

We know that Brandon is mostly saving him for the back 5. And his role in present-day events is largely as a cloaking device for Team Dalinar, interfering with Odium's ability to see the future. But given Taravodium's keen awareness of that ability, even that role might be diminished in book 5. They might even need to hide Renarin away somewhere (maybe with Rlain along to protect him eh?), because if I'm Taravodium, one of my first orders of business is to try to neutralize Renarin and Sja-Anat.

It's also kinda weird, given that Renarin is a fairly major character, that he still doesn't have his own chapter icon. I think Shalash is the only other planned flashback character for whom we don't have a chapter icon. Obviously, he doesn't have to be the interlude character to get a chapter icon, but it might make it more likely.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

Perhaps we can revive it a bit with a suggestion I don't see among those above. You know who might be a good pick? Renarin.

We know that Brandon is mostly saving him for the back 5. And his role in present-day events is largely as a cloaking device for Team Dalinar, interfering with Odium's ability to see the future. But given Taravodium's keen awareness of that ability, even that role might be diminished in book 5. They might even need to hide Renarin away somewhere (maybe with Rlain along to protect him eh?), because if I'm Taravodium, one of my first orders of business is to try to neutralize Renarin and Sja-Anat.

It's also kinda weird, given that Renarin is a fairly major character, that he still doesn't have his own chapter icon. I think Shalash is the only other planned flashback character for whom we don't have a chapter icon. Obviously, he doesn't have to be the interlude character to get a chapter icon, but it might make it more likely.

Oooh yess. Renarin definitely can be the interlude character and I like your suggestion about rlain. That makes sense to me. And yeah taravangian gunning for renarin is particularly great.

In fact, in fact I would not be surprised if Renarin and szeth are in particular danger because of taravangian. He would not want nightblood in anyone's hands than his own. He might try to manipulate ishar into killing szeth too. 

[Honorless he/him]

Moash seems the most likely to me as well. He's too much of an important character, he's been built up or err down, I guess, too much to just fizzle out.

The next most likely is Gavilar though I don't think he needs to be alive for that to work. A flashback interlude character would be interesting.

El also seems likely. He just appeared out of nowhere, and his chances of being a one-book-villain are pretty high, he might need the page-count.

Leshwi is possible but I think Venli now covers most of that area. Having Leshwi's PoV might also give up too much info too soon.

The Ghostbloods are very unlikely to have the main interlude. They're a Worldhopping organization. Way too much info to give up way too soon. They also work better without giving us an inside view.

The Heralds are also unlikely for the same reason, imo - it's too soon. I think they'll be left for the back-5 but they're still more likely than the Ghostbloods. If one of them is the main interlude viewpoint character, that could be a transition point from the front-5 to the back-5, but I think that's already covered with Ishar and Kalak at this point.

I think one of the back-5 protagonists (minus Shalash and Taln) are also possible candidates for main interlude character. I think Lift has already been covered. I'm looking at Jasnah or more likely, Renarin.

Sja-Anat or any other Unmade also seem unlikely to be the main interlude character. Might reveal too much, but with their mindsets, it might be possible to leave tantalizing hints of things to come. Ba-Ado-Mishram is supposed to be important in this book, so she's also a possible candidate but an unlikely one, I think.

I don't think either one of the female Heralds whom we haven't met yet or any of the Unmade we haven't met yet are likely candidates. I think the pattern of not using the main interlude narration to introduce a new character is more likely to continue but it's not impossible. We might meet Dai-Gonarthis, hopefully. Or possibly Chemoarish.

I don't think Taravangian is going to make a comeback as the main interlude character but I sure would love it if he did!

Edited November 14, 2021 by Honorless
grammar

[LuckyJim]

Thinking about it again, I wonder if it's possible that Hoid would be the interlude through-line this time. He's already taken a bigger role in the series than I ever expected in RoW.