Taln Never Broke

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Taln is one of the most intriguing characters in the SA imo.  The idea of a man who sacrificed everything, and more, for humanity.  A man who was apparently never supposed to be a Herald, and who never broke.  

 

At the end of WoK, Taln returns, supposedly from Damnation, after 'allegedly' finally breaking after 4500 years of torture.  I don't think that happened.  I think Taln, even after 4500 years of constant and unending pain, never gave in.

 

“His hair was long and matted, his clothing nothing more than a ragged, sacklike length of cloth wrapping his waist. He stood with head bowed, wet, ratty hair hanging down over his face and mixing with a beard that had bits of wood and leaves stuck in it.”

“His muscles glistened, wet as if he’d just swum a great distance.”

 

Something doesn't seem right about this description.  I don't believe that in a normal Return that Heralds would appear on Roshar as wet, and with bits of wood and grass on them.  Brandon writes that it looks like he had swam a great distance.  I think that Taln, while on Braize, discovered that another Desolation was coming without the Oathpact being involved, and so he found a way to escape using a perpendicularity within the Purelake, then swam to where we see him at the end of WoK.  The only part I'm not sure about yet is what caused Taln to have enough time while sane to do so.  What could've triggered a time of clarity for Taln to do this?  Whatever happened exactly, I'm sure we'll find out at some point, maybe in Taln's book.  I just really love the idea of Taln NEVER breaking.  I think it's part of Brandon's characterization for him, and even after 4500 years, I think the idea of him finally giving in would go against his character.

 

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

It also doesn't make sense what would have broken Taln after 1000s of years? If nothing worked before, then what would have worked now (especially if Taln was so insane by the end)?

Edited December 29, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

It also doesn't make sense what would have broken Taln after 1000s of years? If nothing worked before, then what would have worked now (especially if Taln was so insane by the end)?

That was my thought,

"By this point his mind should be so broken, that he couldn't have broken an oath."

[danex he/him]

I just thought of a random crackpot theory that goes with this, what if taln wasn’t even insane? We know that the insanity of the Heralds is magically influenced, it isn’t normal insanity. That seems to imply that they didn’t go insane from the torture. Maybe the insanity only affects them once they’re on Roshar. But they didn’t go insane in the earlier desolations, what’s different this time? I’ll tell you what, BA-ADO-MISHRAM. I just read this theory and it makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe the same sort of thing is happening to the heralds, but instead of turning into deadeyes, they just turn insane. 

On the other hand, there are a few things that could disprove the theory. It says that Taln is covered in water, so presumably he’s been swimming, maybe in the Purelake. However, the Purelake is only a few feet deep, he wouldn’t have needed to swim at all. Also, I don’t think the place where that scene takes place is close to the purelake at all, is it? Wouldn’t he have been dried off by then? I think it’s possible that the moisture is instead some sort of effect of leaving the Cognitive Realm. We see the same things with Shardblades, when they’re summoned they’re covered in moisture.

On the other other hand, why does he have wood and leaves stuck in his beard? Those wouldn’t be from Braize, I don’t think it has any trees, or life at all really. So if the moisture was because he just came from the cog realm, how did he have time to get leaves in his hair?

 

Edit: The Ba-Ado-Mishram theory is making more and more sense the more I think about it. That’s why Taln was sane enough to talk to Hoid at the beginning, he was just falling under the influence of whatever’s happening, and then it ALSO explains why heralds regain their sanity momentarily around Honor’s perpendicularity and when they’re around a radiant who has just spoken a new oath. Their Connection with Honor is being momentarily restored, so they regain their sanity. Just like how a spren keeps their sanity so long as they are bound to a radiant. 
 

Edit 2: Wait, but Kalak was insane and he was in the cognitive realm. Well maybe Roshar’s cognitive realm is still technically Roshar so it still works. Wait no, that doesn’t make sense, then the spren would all be deadeyes. Maybe Kalak wasn’t actually insane, just eccentric? Or maybe he specifically was just normal insane, while all the other heralds we’ve seen have been magic insane?

Edited December 29, 2020 by Dannex

[Ashbringer he/him]

I would think that Taln would arrive on Roshar the same way the Heralds did in prior Desolations (the ones who didn’t break that Desolation). I thought that would be more magical, but now I wonder if they didn’t just worldhop there normally. Or semi-normally for Battar, Kalak, and Ishar (Transportation and Bondsmith perpendicularity).

[Ixthos he/him]

This theory is brilliant and raises an interesting question: does that mean the Fused are violating the pact? That the Fused are sidestepping what is allowed, and so able to use this fact, that Taln never gave them leave to return, to rebind them back to Braize? Not confronting them and demanding they leave, but rather like they are still tangled up in threads that Taln's breaking would have severed and if those threads are pulled they would be sent back to Braize?

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

This theory is brilliant and raises an interesting question: does that mean the Fused are violating the pact? That the Fused are sidestepping what is allowed, and so able to use this fact, that Taln never gave them leave to return, to rebind them back to Braize? Not confronting them and demanding they leave, but rather like they are still tangled up in threads that Taln's breaking would have severed and if those threads are pulled they would be sent back to Braize?

I would say that instead, the Fused found a way to circumvent the Oathpact which is what allowed Taln to return to Roshar.  I don't think that there is any precedent to lock them away on Braize though.  For that the happen, I think Dalinar would have to form a new Oathpact of some sort.  

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I would think that Taln would arrive on Roshar the same way the Heralds did in prior Desolations (the ones who didn’t break that Desolation). I thought that would be more magical, but now I wonder if they didn’t just worldhop there normally. Or semi-normally for Battar, Kalak, and Ishar (Transportation and Bondsmith perpendicularity).

I always thought that Honor would just open his perpendicularity to bring the Heralds back to Roshar himself.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

10 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I would say that instead, the Fused found a way to circumvent the Oathpact which is what allowed Taln to return to Roshar.  I don't think that there is any precedent to lock them away on Braize though.  For that the happen, I think Dalinar would have to form a new Oathpact of some sort.  

We know from Venli/Eshonai flashbacks that Everstorm was build from Decades in Shadesmar. So with Taln still on Braize, Voidspren entered the Shadesmar and apear on Roshar, first in Cognitive Realm and next in Physical. Probably not just Voidspren but Fused as well. So Odium works around the Oathpact to bring his forces on Roshar, but doing so he probably accidentally relased Taln and he was able to Return.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

We know from Venli/Eshonai flashbacks that Everstorm was build from Decades in Shadesmar. So with Taln still on Braize, Voidspren entered the Shadesmar and apear on Roshar, first in Cognitive Realm and next in Physical. Probably not just Voidspren but Fused as well. So Odium works around the Oathpact to bring his forces on Roshar, but doing so he probably accidentally relased Taln and he was able to Return.

My thoughts exactly

[Xaladin he/him]

Taln is the real hero of the SA.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

6 hours ago, Xaladin said:

Taln is the real hero of the SA.

Yes, by the end of the series, I think that will be apparent.  

[+Child of Hodor]

On 12/29/2020 at 3:27 AM, Ashbringer said:

I would think that Taln would arrive on Roshar the same way the Heralds did in prior Desolations (the ones who didn’t break that Desolation). I thought that would be more magical, but now I wonder if they didn’t just worldhop there normally. Or semi-normally for Battar, Kalak, and Ishar (Transportation and Bondsmith perpendicularity).

Yeah, I think they go back the hard way. They were never meant to leave Braize once they went there. They were meant to trap the Fused there forever. Honor didn't forsee them "bending" their Oaths so he would not have given them a special way to go back to Roshar quickly. Two of them do have the transportation surge, so they could go back that way normally. 

I don't know how Taln got back. Maybe he went through Odium's perpendicularity on Braize to the cognitive and walked.

I don't love the idea of Taln not breaking. I don't want him to be "Swol Jesus" being tortured to save the rest of humanity after Judas (the other Heralds) betrayed him. But what I want doesn't factor in to what it actually is. There has to be some sort of twist to him. Either not as perfect as he seems or he's even more perfect and never broke. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

8 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, I think they go back the hard way. They were never meant to leave Braize once they went there. They were meant to trap the Fused there forever. Honor didn't forsee them "bending" their Oaths so he would not have given them a special way to go back to Roshar quickly. Two of them do have the transportation surge, so they could go back that way normally. 

I don't know how Taln got back. Maybe he went through Odium's perpendicularity on Braize to the cognitive and walked.

I don't love the idea of Taln not breaking. I don't want him to be "Swol Jesus" being tortured to save the rest of humanity after Judas (the other Heralds) betrayed him. But what I want doesn't factor in to what it actually is. There has to be some sort of twist to him. Either not as perfect as he seems or he's even more perfect and never broke. 

Considering that Taln was HAPPY to learn that the other 9 betrayed him to torture for 4,500 years which gave humans time to evolve, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he would have the conviction to never break.  It's also quite obvious that the Everstrom circumvented the Oathpact entirely in the first place, meaning that Taln didn't have to break for the Fused to return to Roshar.  It would be AWFULLY convenient for Taln to break and be sent back immediately before the Everstorm arrived.  

 

He lasted for 4,500 years... What could Odium possibly do to him after that long that would finally break him?  This, along with the Everstorm and Taln's eerily specific physical description in the epilogue of WoK all point to him not breaking.  And that doesn't make him perfect.  He's still a man with flaws, but I do think his undying loyalty to mankind and his refusal to allow the Fused to escape Braize are critical to Brandon's characterization for him.  

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

@Child of Hodor from this point forth I will refer the Taln as "swol Jesus" thank you for this gift.

[StanLemon]

Here's a random thought, what if he found out that the Everstorm would allow the Fused to bypass the Oathpact and he intentionally "broke" in one of his lucid moments in an attempt to warn Roshar about what was coming?

[mathiau he/him]

Hoid did say he was late

[Ichinojo]

15 hours ago, mathiau said:

Hoid did say he was late

Not only that, but Taln himself says that he was late in his WoR interlude, at the end of his usual chant. "I think...I think I am late...this time..." If it is by his breaking that the desolation can begin, how can he be late? And how can he know himself to be late? Sure seems to me like things were operating beyond his control...