Does anyone still want a Moash redemption arc?

[Jellomancer]

I love a good redemption story, but I'll admit there were multiple times in this book I just wanted someone to squash him lol. My gut reaction is that I'd love to see him get his come-uppance, but if Brandon does successfully pull off a redemption story for Moash, it will probably be pretty powerful.

[Xaladin he/him]

Moash is going to join the Ghostbloods. The next place we see him is getting all up in Shallan’s business.

[Zelly]

I just kinda feel sorry for Moash.  I don't want a full redemption arc, but I'd like for him to die at peace at least, not alternating between confused angry child and emotionless robot.

He's one of the most human characters, even if his characteristics are negative ones.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Zelly

[Seloun]

Short answer: Yes, I'd love to see a Moash redemption arc, as much as I'd like to see the redemption arc of any character.

Longer answer: I think the moment one decides someone is beyond redeeming, one decides that person is no longer worth considering as person (i.e., they are no longer worthy of being allowed to make choices). There are a couple of ways to arrive at this conclusion; the first and probably more basic argument is the sunk costs: no matter what the person may have done in the past, it doesn't negate the potential good they can do in the future. Ultimately, from a utilitarian perspective, it comes down to whether or not one thinks the person will do good in the future; their past actions merely to serve as evidence whether that is likely.

It's worth noting that a 'redemption arc' doesn't mean good things happen to Moash (quite the inverse, actually, it would be Moash making good things happen to other people). Instead, it should involve him somehow accepting the consequences for his actions and acting to redeem or mitigate their effects. It doesn't even have to be very long - Moash realizing at the last moment how really harmful his actions were (and that they were his decisions) and stepping off Urithiru to prevent Odium's victory would certainly qualify (if somewhat trite).

I think that forgiveness is independent to redemption. It's not necessary to forgive Moash's actions to want him to find redemption; this is I think actually the strongest form of redemption stories (a variation of 'what are you in the dark?' in that the person chooses to atone despite no expectations of forgiveness - instead, they choose because it's the right thing). And if someone wants to argue that Moash's actions aren't forgiveable, I wouldn't contest it - but that is not the same as not wanting to see him find redemption. Yes, the dichotomy can be mentally uncomfortable - wanting to kill bad!Moash while cheering for good!Moash - but the way to think about it is probably to accept they are literally different people, though linked together in a specific intimate way; good!Moash still inherits the consequences of the decisions made by bad!Moash (think inheritance, or as a guardian assumes responsibility for a ward's actions). But good!Moash chooses differently than bad!Moash going forward.

Of course good/bad is an oversimplification; the devil lies in the details. But the point is that being a person means that they can choose to be better in the future (I consider this to be part of the definition of being a person, so I mean this exactly), and I like seeing believable examples that allow me to stretch the boundaries of what I'm willing to accept as a person.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Seloun

[Djerf he/him]

For the greatest part of RoW u still wanted redemption for Moash but but after reading the full book Moash became cartoonish. 

There is no surprise in a Moash redemption, it's almost to be expected with his " hurr durr I'm evil and kick kittens hurr durr" 

If he stays evil it isn't a surprise either, Roshar is not a magical place where everyone gets redemption just because. 

 

In fact it feels as if the antagonists and villains of the SA has lost their complexity and gone flat after this book.  So to answer the question, I now care to little about Moash to want a redemption for him.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

i'm really bad at hating characters, and while there are some that i do hate, i find it har d to hate moash. regardless, it would be interesting if moash were going to die, and kaladin could save him, but swears his 5th ideal that some do not deserve to be protected. but again, i don't like this the most.

[Vissy]

Just let him die and pass on into the Beyond. Preferably while messing up TOdium's plans. As a character he doesn't deserve anything at all aside from being defeated.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Vissy

[KSub]

No. That chull dung can burn in damnation! 

Seriously though, I want some people to not be redeemed. Szeths redemption was hard to accept even though he was tricked into it and is so broken because of it and I'm not sure how I feel about the possibility of a taravangian redemption.

 

[Dakaladin]

I found it interesting that Kaladin's first lesson to bridge four when he started training them was that it was alright to care, but that's what Moash has thrown away is his ability to care. If there is going to be any sort of redemption for Moash it will have to start with him learning that first lesson that it is good to care.

[Requiem17 she/her]

I think Moash is due for a good ol' GRRM satisfactory death. I am liking the idea of he loses Odium's favor and can't live with the guilt.

I don't hate him though, I agree with what was said earlier, that I understood and agreed with his initial anger. He called Navani out on the Roshone thing which I appreciated. Dalinar didn't learn from his mistakes - literally sent the abusive ex-highprince to live a luxurious, if mostly imprisoned, life in Azir, where I'm sure Dalinar assumes he can't hurt anyone anymore. And for the purposes of the books he probably won't. Still it frustrates me that Dalinar hasn't had to learn from that mistake.

Doesn't mean I forgive Moash though. Just wish there were more characters saying some of the caste-system things he says. 

[LuckyJim]

34 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

Doesn't mean I forgive Moash though. Just wish there were more characters saying some of the caste-system things he says. 

I would be significantly less defensive of Moash if there were more characters who were openly critical of the caste system.

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I would be significantly less defensive of Moash if there were more characters who were openly critical of the caste system.

This is definitely something I understand, but on the other hand... Moash is just pure hot garbage whose actions completely undermine his supposed beliefs on the caste system and you do not need to defend him to defend criticism of the caste system.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Vissy

[Rainier]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:13 AM, Seloun said:

Longer answer: I think the moment one decides someone is beyond redeeming, one decides that person is no longer worth considering as person (i.e., they are no longer worthy of being allowed to make choices). There are a couple of ways to arrive at this conclusion; the first and probably more basic argument is the sunk costs: no matter what the person may have done in the past, it doesn't negate the potential good they can do in the future.

It took me a while to find this.

Quote

‘No, and I don’t want to,’ said Frodo. ‘I can’t understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.’

‘Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many – yours not least.

Just as Frodo is paralleled, and stalked by, Gollum, so too is Kaladin paralleled, and stalked by, Moash. Just because he deserves death doesn't mean he's going to get it, and he is bound up with the fate of the Radiants. There is a part for him left to play, but so many are so sick of him that they can't see and don't want to look.

[Inkspren_K she/her]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:27 PM, Debarra said:

No. They don't deserve it and at this stage it just wouldn't be possible.

On 12/29/2020 at 7:18 PM, aneonfoxtribute said:

It's not happening. Not after this book. After Oathbringer it was still kind of possible, but not after killing Teft. 

I personally don't want a redemption arc, however, it's important to me that it is still possible. A main theme of SA is characters overcoming their past no matter what it is. This would be completely undermined by saying that a character is beyond redemption. Again, I think and hope he probably won't have a redemption arc, but object to the idea he can't have one.

On 12/29/2020 at 1:07 AM, Dannex said:

It should be noted that the Blackthorn was a much worse person than Moash currently is, and look where he ended up....

This goes to support this point. If Moash changed and made different choices like Dalinar he could be redeemed. However  right now he hasn't yet indicated any desire to change, which would be necessary for this to happen.

[LuckyJim]

On 1/15/2021 at 8:25 AM, Inkspren_K said:

This goes to support this point. If Moash changed and made different choices like Dalinar he could be redeemed. However, right now he hasn't yet indicated any desire to change, which would be necessary for this to happen.

I expect something in him to change in the next book, because at this point there's literally nowhere else for his character to go. His whole arc in Rhythm of War was about attempting to affirm his worldview, that humans are garbage not worth protecting and that caring about anything is pointless because it only drags you down, by breaking Kaladin, the one person who is completely incompatible with this idea. Throughout RoW, Moash repeatedly demonstrates that he can't ignore Kaladin. When the Nine discuss the occupation of Urithiru, he asks what they're going to do about Kaladin. When speaking to Odium, he admits that despite doing his best to get rid of all emotion, he can't get rid of the feelings Kaladin inspires. Most of all, he says that "Stormblessed can't be killed" as though it's his catchphrase. Breaking Kaladin was supposed to be how he'd eliminate that last "chain", but he failed and Kaladin ended up coming out stronger instead.

He didn't have much opportunity to really acknowledge his failure in the chaos at the end of the occupation of Urithiru, but at this point he can't ignore Kaladin and he can't get rid of him, he'll have no choice but to reconsider his worldview in order to reconcile this. Of course, he could end up just spiraling further down into denial and becoming even more deranged than he already is (if that's even possible) and at this point I wouldn't even be that surprised.

[Eggdogg]

Moash is on his own. Gives off a padan fain vibe now. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:41 PM, Xaladin said:

Moash is going to join the Ghostbloods. The next place we see him is getting all up in Shallan’s business.

I don’t think Kelsier would like him much. He killed one friend to drive another to suicide. Kelsier holds friendship and loyalty to one’s friends as important values. He’d sympathize with Moash, but he wouldn’t want him on his team. A man who will betray his friends to the extent Moash has is not a man Kelsier could trust. And trust is very important to Kell.

He’d also see Moash as weak for giving up his pain to Odium. And be disgusted by the way Moash happily accepted another form of slavery because he perceived his new master’s as honorable. Moash is not the kind of man Kelsier would be interested in recruiting.

@Rainier

Thanks for the Tolkien quote. No one quite writes like he did. There was something so special about his writing.

He also wrote two of the most sympathetic villains ever. When mass murderers - who have massacred refugees - are some of people’s favorite and most beloved characters despite their crimes... you know you’ve done something right. Here’s to Maedhros and Maglor! 

And following said refugee massacre Cano adopted Elrond and Elros, children of a woman he and his brother drove to suicide. “And love grew between them, as little might be thought.”

And then the brothers killed more elves going after gemstones (well, Maglor did it for Maedhros), despite their regret. Absolutely fascinating, complex and sympathetic characters. All the Silm characters are.

The brothers entire fall to villainy should be a standard, really. THIS is how you write sympathetic villains people! And how you give them redemptive elements without redemption. After all, Maitimo went to his fiery grave with the Silmaril clutched to his chest. As for Macalaure... well, they say he still wanders in sorrow and regret along the shores of Endore. And perhaps he has found redemption of a sort, for he cast his gem away into the sea.

Ulmo would like to request that people stop doing this, btw. (Cough... looking at you Rosharans... cough)

Edited February 1, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

I want Moash to get a redemption arc so that I can watch him suffer the emotional pain of his actions and face the consequences of what he's done. You cannot escape your pain.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

42 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I want Moash to get a redemption arc so that I can watch him suffer the emotional pain of his actions and face the consequences of what he's done. You cannot escape your pain.

I call that comeuppance. Then I want him to beg forgiveness of Kaladin and for Kaladin to say, "I am not able to save everyone" as Syl pushes him into a portal to Braize.

[Bejarden he/him]

8 minutes ago, Ooklara said:

I call that comeuppance. Then I want him to beg forgiveness of Kaladin and for Kaladin to say, "I am not able to save everyone" as Syl pushes him into a portal to Braize.

Yes , YESSSSS

[Dracnor he/him]

I want to see hip keep going down on the path of epitomizing voidbringers. No death, no redemption, just pure void and silence and ignoring his own contradictions.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I ain't getting a Jasnah-and-Amaram wedding feast scene (it's pretty much the worst possible ship, but there was a time when it would have made political sense, and their kids would either be the best people or the worst, and you know everyone involved would have gone all out), or a 600-page description of the architecture of Shinovar (a culture that doesn't walk on stone and regards stone as sacred is going to have some fascinating city designs and building designs), or a collection of onomatopoeia comprising every sound that Chasmfiends make, so none of you can have a Moash redemption arc.

 

On 1/2/2021 at 1:02 PM, Djerf said:

In fact it feels as if the antagonists and villains of the SA has lost their complexity and gone flat after this book.  

I get what you're saying here, and I think you're right, but I don't read these books for the characters.  I read them for the worldbuilding.  There are many authors who can write complex, non-flat characters who are compelling, but none I know of who can write the words that Mr. Sanderson makes.  I don't really care about the characters like everyone else seems to (but dang, Mraize's mention of an invasive species of Mole from another planet darn near gave me a heart attack for the poor ecology of Roshar).

Also, killing Elhokar juuuuuuuuust before he could say The Words, in front of his toddler-age child, and then giving a taunting Bridge Four salute, is pretty straightforwardly "durr hurr I'm evil and kick puppies" as you say, and that was in Oathbringer.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 12/14/2020 at 5:22 PM, Autobrecciation said:

I was super anti Moash redemption arc before RoW, and while I don't want him to get like, a Venli level backstory and redemption, I really feel like he could have a Darth Vader moment with Kaladin right as he dies, despite him having killed Teft. I know Brandon could do it.

I hope Brandon doesn't do it!  That was easily the worst part of the original trilogy.  A brutal mass-murderer is not redeemed by simply refusing to let an even more evil mass-murderer murder his son.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 12/14/2020 at 6:35 PM, Chinkoln said:

Up until the end of RoW I wanted Moash to be redeemed. The second that Teft died, Moash became my least favorite person in the Cosmere. He killed the best character in the Cosmere.

Wait... what?  Moash murdered Wayne?!? 

[Orlion Blight he/him]

10 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I hope Brandon doesn't do it!  That was easily the worst part of the original trilogy.  A brutal mass-murderer is not redeemed by simply refusing to let an even more evil mass-murderer murder his son.

Agreed. 

Also, to me, Moash went into irredeemable territory when he killed Teft's spren (and probably would have killed Syl if given the opportunity).

That's Judge Doom killing an innocent cartoon shoe levels of malevolence right there.