Prediction: Odium’s champion will be Gavinor

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

While I agree that we may have all gone too far down the rabbit hole of loopholes and tricks, I'm not sure that I agree that Todium would be happy with just straight winning the contest. If he really has designs on the greater cosmere he's not going to be happy with a result that leaves him chained to the Rosharan system.

Exactly. I still think the double kill is the outcome Odium is most likely to aim for.

[+mdross81 he/him]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. I still think the double kill is the outcome Odium is most likely to aim for.

Yeah. One thing I've learned from my discussions about the contest and loopholes is that a whole lotta people (myself included probably) are going to be disappointed if the contest doesn't actually take place. I mean Dalinar has been working at forcing Odium into a contest of champions since the Tanavast vision at the end of WoK.

So any trick or loophole that Todium might eventually pull off has to factor in the contest taking place.

[LuckyJim]

On 4/17/2021 at 2:50 AM, Mr Bear said:

Well, if it is about death rattles then I think that Dalinar's champion will be Kaladin and Odium's champion will be Moash due to this deathrattle that i found while re-reading TWoK

Moash's pain is withdrawn from him and he stands against Kaladin, who saved his life. He raises his hand and Jezrien's honorblade responds.

That death rattle is a reference to the end of WoR, where Kaladin raises his hand against Moash while defending Elhokar and regains his powers. The chapter were Dalinar tells Kaladin Elhokar's side of the Roshone affair, including how that resulted in Roshone coming to Hearthstone, is titled "The One Who Killed Promises".

[Bejarden he/him]

Quote

He doesn't care about giving up Alethkar or gaining Dalinar's soul - these are tiny stakes to him.

I do think that Taravangian would appreciate having Dalinar as his right hand man 

 

[xXtwiggsXx]

Besides the death rattle, I think the second strongest point, or even on par with the death rattle as a reason that Gavinor would be Taravangian's champion, would be Dalinar and Taravangian's philosophies. Dalinar believes that true victory only comes through keeping to the high road so to speak. He would not see sacrificing innocents to win as a victory. Taravangian on the other hand is very much for the greater good. Looking at using Gavinor it would be less a physical battle but one of philosophy and one that in the end I believe Dalinar will lose.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Both champion's have to be be willing. I don't see any situation where a young child would be a willing champion. Todium is more than enough of a (can't think of a word that accurately describes him that doesn't violate forum rules) to be ok with trying to manipulate a small child into a death match, but for neither Rayse nor Taravangian does that feel like something they would do. It's small and boring. Rayse was in love with his own regality, and Taravangian is in love with his own capacity. 

Whatever shenanigans Taravangian has planned, you can bet your bottom dollar it will be something that screams, "I AM THE SMARTEST BEING IN EXISTANCE" which is untrue, but definitely the heart of who Taravandian is. He referred back to the doctor's words about his capacity over and over and over throughout the last 6 years, (and almost certainly throughout his life). I would be extremely disappointed to see someone so obsessed with how smart they are, resort to the strictest technicality of an agreement instead of doing something that's actually brilliant. 

[The_Milkgod]

I'm really sick of this theory oh my Lord.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

I see the points, but I just don’t think so

[Berti]

Why would Gavinor want to be Odium's champion? Because contract states the champion must do this of his own will, correct?

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Berti said:

Why would Gavinor want to be Odium's champion? Because contract states the champion must do this of his own will, correct?

Welcome to the Shard. 

While I'm not a big fan of that theory, Gavinor has a really strong urge to avenge his father, and also suffers trauma. Odium might somehow exploit those feelings and make them stronger. They might make a deal, Odium will give him Moash so he could kill him, but Gavinor has to become his champion (and talk to his uncle to make him surrender). Or something like that - that's the only way I see Gavinor agreeing. RoW ch 16:

Quote

“Gram?” Gav asked as they looked out over the mountains. “I want Grampa to teach me the sword.”
[...]
“If I have a sword,” Gav said, “nobody will be able to hurt me. I’ll be able to find the man who killed my father. And I could kill him.”

 

[bmcclure7]

On 12/8/2020 at 8:53 AM, Mulk said:

For Odium to win, Gavinor would have to 1) be able to accept this, and I don't know that he can or would, given his age; and 2) be able to kill Dalinar, which even if Dalinar fell down and let him, I don't know that he could.

It strikes me that the whole Intent thing applies not only to shards choosing their champions, but to champions choosing to say yes.  Can a kid his age really do that?  I don't know.  This whole line of thought is probably one of the more disturbing ones frequenting the Shard currently, to me anyway.  I have a lot more thoughts on this particular issue, but they are mostly covered by Jofwu in the post above mine.

I currently think a far more likely outcome is that Dalinar wins the challenge against whomever, but Toadivangian's ideas about how to get around the agreement result in him finding a way out of the thousand years of peace; or that the Fused gains in the 10 days leading up to the challenge lead Dalinar to make a different deal. Another possibility that I have no evidence for aside from Ishar's brief moment of lucidity is that if Ishar or Dalinar are able to reset the Oathpact, it will somehow capture the void-specific or respawn effects of the Everstorm and rob it of its ability to put Fused back on Roshar for the duration of someone/several someones' stay on Braize.

What I think would be far more interesting is that the outcome of this somehow results in the Fused being at peace, Odium free to escape into the Cosmere because he's 'totally working with Cultivation now and is not at all evil, no' which results in him returning to Roshar a few years down the road to take a different and much firmer shot at getting rid of Cultivation.

No Todium doesn't want to kill dalinar so there is no reason his champion has to be able to.  

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 9/2/2023 at 0:44 PM, alder24 said:

Welcome to the Shard. 

While I'm not a big fan of that theory, Gavinor has a really strong urge to avenge his father, and also suffers trauma. Odium might somehow exploit those feelings and make them stronger. They might make a deal, Odium will give him Moash so he could kill him, but Gavinor has to become his champion (and talk to his uncle to make him surrender). Or something like that - that's the only way I see Gavinor agreeing. RoW ch 16:

 

I still feel that if this is what TOdium does, it will be a huge letdown for me. T has staked his life (at least the last 6-7 years we've seen him) on being THE smartest guy in the room (actually on Roshar, because his ego is just that big, but that's not the saying) and for him to ascend and then go, "Hey! I can just have his grandson beat him!" Instead of something actually brilliant, would be a bummer. If it happens, it happens, and there won't be anything I can do about it. But I expect more from Taravangian, now Vessel, more than I do of just about any other character in the Cosmere. He hasn't shut up about his capacity in his entire adult life (according to his best friend) and now he has infinite capacity...and if that's what he comes  up with? Yeah..I don't like it.

[coolsnow7]

3 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I still feel that if this is what TOdium does, it will be a huge letdown for me. T has staked his life (at least the last 6-7 years we've seen him) on being THE smartest guy in the room (actually on Roshar, because his ego is just that big, but that's not the saying) and for him to ascend and then go, "Hey! I can just have his grandson beat him!" Instead of something actually brilliant, would be a bummer. If it happens, it happens, and there won't be anything I can do about it. But I expect more from Taravangian, now Vessel, more than I do of just about any other character in the Cosmere. He hasn't shut up about his capacity in his entire adult life (according to his best friend) and now he has infinite capacity...and if that's what he comes  up with? Yeah..I don't like it.

I think this is the correct way to theorize rather than “why would Gavinor want to kill his uncle” - there’s a whole 5th book still to be revealed! Details like that can be addressed in the course of the book. As long as we see the foundations laid - eg, Gavinor’s clearly messed up mental health - then we can assume Brandon will work out how Gavinor develops from nice but disturbed child to adoptive-grandfather-killer.

Personally I agree that I’d find this outcome dissatisfying. That said, I think this theory is dead for two reasons:

* we see from Gavilar’s prologue that the Deathrattles are extremely literal, but Gavinor is not “suckling” age at all. Note that this was the main motivation for the theory, at least for me - forcing Dalinar to fight an opponent he refuses to kill doesn’t require Gavinor at all.

* In Jasnah’s excerpt, Hoid says he needs to consult with a Shard for their expertise. That implies that whatever TOdium has cooked up is based on mechanics we don’t know yet. This theory certainly does not - quite the opposite. (Though thankfully that also implies that the idiotic “a tie means any and all prior agreements are rendered void” theory can storm off as well.)

[KaladinWorldsinger]

7 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

we see from Gavilar’s prologue that the Deathrattles are extremely literal

But the death rattles call Shallan a man. Not literal at all.

"Two men come from the chasma with a heart in their hand, and i know I have seen true glory" (Talking about kal and Shallan coming out of the chasms in Wor)