Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration he/him]

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is their identity when they are a  sword in the physical realm that allows them to use their identity to cut connection in the spiritual realm. They don't do it when they take other non cutting forms or don't have a physical identity currently active.

If they only cut identity to the SR why do they cut inorganic matter, or dead matter like it isn't there?

And Shardblades cut on all three realms not just spiritual which is where Identity is located.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Frustration

[BenduLuke he/him]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If they only cut identity to the SR why do they cut inorganic matter, or dead matter like it isn't there?

And Shardblades cut on all three realms not just spiritual which is where Identity is located.

I would have thought that would be obvious. Cutting is part of their identity as a sword in the physical realm which is reflected in all three, but to cut animate matter physically first they need to sever it from investiture spiritually. Seriously are you really asking me this. The idea isn't even all that imaginative so why are you confused?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

I would have thought that would be obvious. Cutting is part of their identity as a sword in the physical realm which is reflected in all three, but to cut animate matter physically first they need to sever it from investiture spiritually. Seriously are you really asking me this. The idea isn't even all that imaginative so why are you confused?

because it makes no sense.

let's take an example,

If I shoot an oxygen atom at the ground, it will burn a long hole to the center of the Earth.

It's not very imaginative, but it makes no sense.

And severing it from investiture spiritually? That's like severing it from energy, it's not possible.

[BenduLuke he/him]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

because it makes no sense.

let's take an example,

If I shoot an oxygen atom at the ground, it will burn a long hole to the center of the Earth.

It's not very imaginative, but it makes no sense.

And severing it from investiture spiritually? That's like severing it from energy, it's not possible.

What I mean to say by being not very imaginative is that the idea is very basic, but I am not going to do your thinking for you. This is one of those times when you reject logical evidence because you want to at best. I'll let you think on it. By all means come up with an alternate explanation as to why shardblades sever until then I wont contiure to spoon feed you what you seem to want to intentionally be confused about.

I suspect that it doesn't make sense to you because you choose to stop at because. That is the problem with because.

Edited March 27, 2021 by BenduLuke

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

F-Aluminum is a wild card. It allows the storage of Identity and also allows the ferring to bipass the identity lock on metalminds not just create blanks usable by anyone. Do you understand the implications of this. An aluminum ferring who blanks themself can tap another aluminum ferrings metalmind attaining that persons Identity with potentially all their abilities, investiture, skills, and knowledge. Forming a bond forms a connection which can also potentially give an aluminum ferring access to the identity of the other thing or person. So bonding a shardblade may give access to any residual identity within it including that portion of the Radiants identity left over after the recrience from the former bond. Aluminum allomancy allows for the burning away of investiture based injuries more so for Savants so shardblade damage can be burned off as can painrial effects.

Yes it allows them to bypass this restriction and allows them to tap other aluminum minds, but tapping someones Identity does not change your underlying nature. I would imagine tapping others Identity would be akin to Forging oneself, but less effective as it would only make you think you are someone else, it would not actually rewrite the spiritweb as Forging does. If it did, than tapping someone else aluminum mind is essentially committing suicide, as your Identity would be overwritten by the one you tapped.

If tapping Identity allowed you to gain their investiture and knowledge, copperminds and nicrosil would be a bit redundant, as those do allow to transfer knowledge and invested abilities. While bond is connection, a person is connected to many things, but they do not become part of your Identity, so not storable, Feruchemists can only store their own attributes. Residual Identity is not a thing, Identity is most likely attribute of persons spiritweb, plus the bond between deadplate and Radiant is broken that is what semi-killed the spren.

Aluminum allomancy allows to potentially burn away damage to cognitive (maybe even spiritual) self, not heal damage caused by investiture. If someone stabbed you with a shardblade that had its invested cutting somehow negated, you would still be a person with stab wound, no amount of aluminum would fix that, it aint gold.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

From what I have read painrials need to store pain before they evoke pain, but Fabrials are something I know the least about.

Nope, in the book they just need them to be turned on, or specifically to have their polarity reversed as they were originally intended as diminishers not augmenters. Painrial involve no storing whatsoever, and even if they did aluminum twin can store only into and from aluminum, not gems or non-aluminum metals used in fabrials.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

When I first looked at what aluminum does in metal arts it seemed strange to me that in all but one aspect it is investiture inert and even anti investiture. Why is that I asked? It stores Identity is this a clue to what it does or why it does it? Accepting that assumption I thought maybe its relationship with storing and tapping Identity is how it wipes metals and other investiture. Spren would avoid it because to close an interaction would wipe their own identities. Without another outlet burning aluminum stores the metals or investiture identity back into the spirit realm, but if you have a aluminum compounder they can literally store the identity of anything that aluminum burning makes vanish into the SR. Identity also seems to be key in restoring connection. For example once a person accepts as part of their identity that they have a scar or deformed limb it cannot be healed, but if at any time they eliminate that as part of their identity they can be. This idea became plausible in a matter of minutes to me, but as a courtesy I decided to explain my thought process to you. If you can find some other plausible way that aluminum works I am all ears. It just does that is not an explanation. Oh by the way it makes sense that most gem used for fabrials would be investiture resistant because many have aluminum in their structure even before you infuse them with stormlight or spren.

Why would there be a link between Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities of aluminum? What link is there between pulling metal and speed (steel), hiding Rhythms and memory (copper) or wiping investiture of target and Fortune (chromium), or is in these cases "it just does" a good explanation? Also in allomancy it wipes metals even when they are not being burned, i.e. even when they are completely uninvested hunks of metal, so why would it do that in your framework? There would be no investiture to be wiped.

We also know that aluminum receptacle is a way of retrieving invested liquid from Perpendicularity and it does not negate this investiture, hence it does not work as anti-investiture. Since sprenblades are made from pure investiture (just as spren, since they are spren) and contact with aluminum does precisely nothing to the spren itself, outside of negating the invested cutting (but only for the aluminum) I really do not see any support for this conjecture of yours and in fact I see several to the contrary of it. Not to mention that once again, feruchemy works by storing Feruchemists attributes, not attributes of other items. There is exactly zero evidence that it does anything else.

True it is odd that outside of metallic arts the aluminum is inert to investiture, but the key is that it is inert it does not interact with investiture at all. In fact we have WoB on this, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364), all aluminum does is block investiture from passing through or it does not react at all, it definitely does not "wipe spren identities".

Oh and by the way, the gems used in fabrials are the same as those used in spheres, so they do not resist investiture and in fact take it in quite nicely, you just need to leave them lying around in highstorm. And only some of them contain aluminum (6 out of 10), but since in metallic arts the metal must be quite clean and alloys very precise, I do not think chemical compounds would have the same properties (not even simple alloys of aluminum have the same properties, so chemical compounds would be even larger stretch, but who knows what Era 3 holds).

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The shardplate had a connection to the identity they added and finding it to free it became imperitive for a couple of reasons. There would be another Shardblade to revive (he has a strong desire to heal the Spren at this point) and of course to release the Spren from imposed slavery. Because he now held remnants of the previous Radiant's identity he did have to reaffirm those oaths to heal the Spren of the Blade, but he may also have needed to swear new oaths specific to himself. From my perspective Identity acts as a key to connection. He also never summoned plate he released spren of dead plate that he shared an identity connection with. I am really surprised that none of you said his using stormlight could be complicated thus potentially limiting living plate and surges.

That shardplate has connection to identity is your assumption. Of course he could not have taken on that Identity in the first place, because that person is dead. Also, again, reswearing ideals is not sufficient to bring back the deadspren, it might be if you were the same person, but alas your agent is not the same person as the original Knight. Even if Identity is key to connection, holding a key does not mean you move the door around or pull stuff from other rooms (that would be connection manipulations).

Well, him using stormlight is bit of an afterthought after all the magic mechanism breaking things the Agent already did.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

In wounding him with the shard investiture the Skybreaker imposed some of the combined identity of himself and the spren into Quicksilver thus giving him access to it to store, and the jolt of burning away the investiture innate in the attack also caused problems for both the spren and the Skybreaker especially since they weren't expecting it. Quicksilver wasn't glowing so how did they know he wasn't normal with attitude flouting their authority.

How? If I stab someone I do not "impart some of my identity on them" I impart the blade on them. And Spren and Radiant are not the same entity and so would have separate Identities, there is no "combined identity". Maybe if it was fifth oath Radiant, then maybe they could be close enough to be one entity, but I doubt that.  What would precisely happen when you are burning aluminum and there is a shardblade in you is an interesting idea, and I could see it causing discomfort to the spren, possibly  similar to the leeching.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Feruchemy by definition is connection to both aspects of Harmony, Ruin and Preservation. So a stretch, Yeah. Grant the same surges or require the same oaths problably not, but I haven't explored that here yet except to hint at potential lesser splinter status at that time. For that matter he might become the avatar granting bondsmith status representing Harmony on Roshar.

Ehm no, it is a magic system facilitated from the interaction of two shard (or now one intermingled shard). Nahel bond requires two willing participants, so you would first need Harmonys says so, second it would  again be connection manipulation, not Identity. And Feruchemists connection to Shards is passive one, they get no power directly from Shards only some parts of SpiritDNA/spiritweb encoded with abilities.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes any of the spren could break the bond or accept the oath to someone holding at least some of the previous radiants identity as they choose, but it was my narrative and they chose to accept the oaths.

Well why the hell would they do that? Accepting bond to someone who in some cases killed their chosen Knights, narratively that makes no sense. And why is the Scadrian not affected by the additional identities he imposed on himself in your narrative? I can write a one paragraph story on how Sibling, Ba-Ado-Mishram and Nightwatcher all decide to bond Dalinar making him super-bondsmith for all three shards, but it does not exactly make that relevant for this thread does it? You writing a narrative (your own words) does not mean we have to accept it as realistic.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I don't know that they break working principles but they could be said to go against currently working assumptions. With the broad variety of combinations in Scadrian magic it very well could do nearly anything other systems do. For me the big open hole that is aluminum has that potential on its own. Like many of you who are convinced in the near invincibility of Radiants I see no reason to reject that idea from my perspective.

Well I wrote down a list of 9 items that break the established mechanics, but to choose two: 1) Feruchemists store their own attributes, not those of others. 2) Identity manipulation is not the same things as connection manipulation, there is a reason those are two separeta attributes.

Without these two assumptions your entire scenario falls apart. And I am not convinced in the near invincibility of Radiants, just that Scadrials invested arts are simply not strong enough (outside of few exception) to deal any large damage to Radiant with plate. The tools they have even the field somewhat, but I do not think they are enough to close the gap.

EDIT: You also assume that the tapped identity somehow becomes part of the Agents identity, but that is not how Feruchemcy works. Even if (and that is one big if) he could somehow store identity of someone else, he would need to be tapping it continuously.  In fact, the only know permanent way to overwrite your spiritweb is with combinatin of Hemalurgy and Allomancy, where burning hemalurgic spike would spice recipients spiritweb with spiritweb of the donor, to weird effects. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/210/#e4616)

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Rosharans at this point are not familiar with revolvers or firearms, but guys in armor are part of Quicksilvers history. Rosharans see people who glow as invested, but he is used to invested threats looking like regular people. After reviving the first blade he knew more about Radiants than modern radiants do. So yes he quickly had a major advantage over his Rosharan oponents. I have met several people with that kind of accuracy from range. Later opponents didn't require as much accuracy since he dis-armored them first within reasonable pistol range.

So here again you assume that the Radiant is not aware the Scadrians (i.e invested non-glowy people) could be threat, why? Why is the Scadrian well informed about their oponent, but not the Rosharan? I do not think he could either revive the blade, much less relieve memories (Identity =/= Memories) of some one dead for 2 millenia. I would really like to meet the people who can shoot (consistently) moving target the size of 3 cm at best from 7 meters, whilst lying on the ground pretending to be incapacited and shooting under angle. In our world people who pull shots like that are on the Olympic teams in the 10 meter shooting competition and they have much favorable conditions to do that.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

At this point most people seem to use surges directly on their target, but throwing stones like Kal did fighting Amram would certainly be effective. He would probably need to steal a Razium dagger to store up Anti-light into metal minds before hand though with his seeker ability to differentiate light he might be able to invert though intent light into anti-light from the transfer to store in his metal minds. As a seeker he would also be sensitive to bonded Spren as potential targets for any aluminum or antilight weapons.

Why would he need Raysium dagger? Unless he has some kind of connection to local shards he will not be able to pull their investiture into himself anyway. And tones and anti-tones sound the same, it is the intent that differentiates them, but maybe the Seeker could do that. But that would still not allow him to make his from the usual light, since neither allomancy nor feruchemy allows direct manipulation of investiture, only storing/tapping.

Edited March 27, 2021 by therunner
spelling and I accidentaly wrote Cultivation insted of Nightwatcher so I corrected that, added one more comment

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

What I mean to say by being not very imaginative is that the idea is very basic, but I am not going to do your thinking for you. This is one of those times when you reject logical evidence because you want to at best. I'll let you think on it. By all means come up with an alternate explanation as to why shardblades sever until then I wont contiure to spoon feed you what you seem to want to intentionally be confused about.

I suspect that it doesn't make sense to you because you choose to stop at because. That is the problem with because.

It doesn't work for me because it is at odds with everything we know about identity, identity is just that, an identification, not a list of all possible attributes.

Insulting me won't make your statement true.

and I have given you an alternative explanation.

[BenduLuke he/him]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Yes it allows them to bypass this restriction and allows them to tap other aluminum minds, but tapping someones Identity does not change your underlying nature. I would imagine tapping others Identity would be akin to Forging oneself, but less effective as it would only make you think you are someone else, it would not actually rewrite the spiritweb as Forging does. If it did, than tapping someone else aluminum mind is essentially committing suicide, as your Identity would be overwritten by the one you tapped.

If tapping Identity allowed you to gain their investiture and knowledge, copperminds and nicrosil would be a bit redundant, as those do allow to transfer knowledge and invested abilities. While bond is connection, a person is connected to many things, but they do not become part of your Identity, so not storable, Feruchemists can only store their own attributes. Residual Identity is not a thing, Identity is most likely attribute of persons spiritweb, plus the bond between deadplate and Radiant is broken that is what semi-killed the spren.

Aluminum allomancy allows to potentially burn away damage to cognitive (maybe even spiritual) self, not heal damage caused by investiture. If someone stabbed you with a shardblade that had its invested cutting somehow negated, you would still be a person with stab wound, no amount of aluminum would fix that, it aint gold.

Nope, in the book they just need them to be turned on, or specifically to have their polarity reversed as they were originally intended as diminishers not augmenters. Painrial involve no storing whatsoever, and even if they did aluminum twin can store only into and from aluminum, not gems or non-aluminum metals used in fabrials.

Why would there be a link between Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities of aluminum? What link is there between pulling metal and speed (steel), hiding Rhythms and memory (copper) or wiping investiture of target and Fortune (chromium), or is in these cases "it just does" a good explanation? Also in allomancy it wipes metals even when they are not being burned, i.e. even when they are completely uninvested hunks of metal, so why would it do that in your framework? There would be no investiture to be wiped.

We also know that aluminum receptacle is a way of retrieving invested liquid from Perpendicularity and it does not negate this investiture, hence it does not work as anti-investiture. Since sprenblades are made from pure investiture (just as spren, since they are spren) and contact with aluminum does precisely nothing to the spren itself, outside of negating the invested cutting (but only for the aluminum) I really do not see any support for this conjecture of yours and in fact I see several to the contrary of it. Not to mention that once again, feruchemy works by storing Feruchemists attributes, not attributes of other items. There is exactly zero evidence that it does anything else.

True it is odd that outside of metallic arts the aluminum is inert to investiture, but the key is that it is inert it does not interact with investiture at all. In fact we have WoB on this, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364), all aluminum does is block investiture from passing through or it does not react at all, it definitely does not "wipe spren identities".

Oh and by the way, the gems used in fabrials are the same as those used in spheres, so they do not resist investiture and in fact take it in quite nicely, you just need to leave them lyeing around in highstorm. And only some of them contain aluminum (6 out of 10), but since in metallic arts the metal must be quite clean and alloys very precise, I do not think chemical compounds would have the same properties (not even simple alloys of aluminum have the same properties, so chemical compounds would be even larger stretch, but who knows what Era 3 holds).

That shardplate has connection to identity is your assumption. Of course he could not have taken on that Identity in the first place, because that person is dead. Also, again, reswearing ideals is not sufficient to bring back the deadspren, it might be if you were the same person, but alas your agent is not the same person as the original Knight. Even if Identity is key to connection, holding a key does not mean you move the door around or pull stuff from other rooms (that would be connection manipulations).

Well, him using stormlight is bit of an afterthought after all the magic mechanism breaking things the Agent already did.

How? If I stab someone I do not "impart some of my identity on them" I impart the blade on them. And Spren and Radiant are not the same entity and so would have separate Identities, there is no "combined identity". Maybe if it was fifth oath Radiant, then maybe they could be close enough to be one entity, but I doubt that.  What would precisely happen when you are burning aluminum and there is a shardblade in you is an interesting idea, and I could see it causing discomfort to the spren, possibly  similar to the leeching.

Ehm no, it is a magic system facilitated from the interaction of two shard (or now one intermingled shard). Nahel bond requires two willing participants, so you would first need Harmonys says so, second it would  again be connection manipulation, not Identity. And Feruchemists connection to Shards is passive one, they get no power directly from Shards only some parts of SpiritDNA/spiritweb encoded with abilities.

Well why the hell would they do that? Accepting bond to someone who in some cases killed their chosen Knights, narratively that makes no sense. And why is the Scadrian not affected by the additional identities he imposed on himself in your narrative? I can write a one paragraph story on how Sibling, Ba-Ado-Mishram and Cultivation all decide to bond Dalinar making him super-bondsmith for all three shards, but it does not exactly make that relevant for this thread does it? You writing a narrative (your own words) does not mean we have to accept it as realistic.

Well I wrote down a list of 9 items that break the established mechanics, but to choose two: 1) Feruchemists store their own attributes, not those of others. 2) Identity manipulation is not the same things as connection manipulation, there is a reason those are two separeta attributes.

Without these two assumptions your entire scenario falls apart. And I am not convinced in the near invincibility of Radiants, just that Scadrials invested arts are simply not strong enough (outside of few exception) to deal any large damage to Radiant with plate. The tools they have even the field somewhat, but I do not think they are enough to close the gap.

So here again you assume that the Radiant is not aware the Scadrians (i.e invested non-glowy people) could be threat, why? Why is the Scadrian well informed about their oponent, but not the Rosharan? I do not think he could either revive the blade, much less relieve memories (Identity =/= Memories) of some one dead for 2 millenia. I would really like to meet the people who can shoot (consistently) moving target the size of 3 cm at best from 7 meters, whilst lying on the ground pretending to be incapacited and shooting under angle. In our world people who pull shots like that are on the Olympic teams in the 10 meter shooting competition and they have much favorable conditions to do that.

Why would he need Raysium dagger? Unless he has some kind of connection to local shards he will not be able to pull their investiture into himself anyway. And tones and anti-tones sound the same, it is the intent that differentiates them, but maybe the Seeker could do that. But that would still not allow him to make his from the usual light, since neither allomancy nor feruchemy allows direct manipulation of investiture, only storing/tapping.

Aluminum potentially allows for a mixture of Identity perhaps even more effective and permanent than forging. Look I am still working out the quirks in my own mind and I get that you and others find the idea outrageous, but much in the cosmere is a big open void open to speculation even radical speculation like mine.

Identity doesn't store information exactly but it can potentially store knowledge like muscle memory or mastered understanding or experience so not exactly what copperminds do. Nicrosil seems to store investiture inherent in or connected to ones identity, but aluminum has the potential to expand ones identity which in turn could expand ones connections in the process.

Shardblades are investiture incarnate so their wounds can have the potential to be cleansed by aluminum. Shardblades are the penultimate weapon on Roshar so it is all but inconceivable that an ordinary looking person could come away unaffected by it to almost all of them.

He intentionally didn't use stormlight because of its potential interaction with his aluminum. You should know that at least from the first dead shardplate he had infused gems.

Identity facilitates connection. As a Radiant attains a higher ideal there is a greater connection between the Radiant's and Spren's identities. they literally become part of one another sharing parts of their identity with each other. Or at least that is how I read it.

There appears to be a link between a persons identity and their connection to allomancy. Identity is a foundational cross realm quality inseparably linked to connection. You really can't have one without the other. That is one of the reasons that aluminum fascinated me so much.

I actually addressed all 9 since many were related.

Painrials only have as much pain as has been stored into them when the polarity is reversed as I remember. At least that is how Navani used it in the battle during OB.

Why do spren bond to anybody? All humans from their perspective have betrayed them and bonding to someone who shares part of the identity of their former Radiant would certainly be simpler for them.

The attitude of non glowing people or people not in plate as being no threat to shardbearers, Radiants, or Fused has be expressed over and over. Shallon herself expressed that she was virtually un-killable. The scadrian is familar with their weapons but they are not familiar with his. Once he revived the blade he knew perhaps more than they did about radiants because of how he accomplished it. None of them survived long enough to recognize the threat. Before that first encounter he really didn't need to know about them he only needed to know that he should try and make a lethal shot such as to the head. Seeing armor that he is unfamiliar with is a big red flag to try and get around it. Seeing a big sword is another red flag to not let this person get close enough to use it before you shoot them. Its the sword to a gunfight idea.

The stated difference between light and its anti is intention. Navani before she was bonded could use a Raysium dagger to drain light so why not a Soulbearer then invert the light through intention as he stores it?

[BenduLuke he/him]

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It doesn't work for me because it is at odds with everything we know about identity, identity is just that, an identification, not a list of all possible attributes.

Insulting me won't make your statement true.

and I have given you an alternative explanation.

No you haven't given me an alternate explanation.

It is at odds with what you want to believe about identity. Oh and my explaination doesn't contradict your because.  I'm not insulting you I am trying to get you to think beyond your narrow view. The explanations I gave you are really quite basic and simple, but I can't make you understand. Tell me why it does what it does or accept my explanation.

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum potentially allows for a mixture of Identity perhaps even more effective and permanent than forging. Look I am still working out the quirks in my own mind and I get that you and others find the idea outrageous, but much in the cosmere is a big open void open to speculation even radical speculation like mine.

No, any storing/tapping of identity is temporary, that is what Feruchemy does temporarily change some attributes of Feruchemist.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity doesn't store information exactly but it can potentially store knowledge like muscle memory or mastered understanding or experience so not exactly what copperminds do. Nicrosil seems to store investiture inherent in or connected to ones identity, but aluminum has the potential to expand ones identity which in turn could expand ones connections in the process.

Again, most likely no. If Identity stored for example understanding or experience, than completly storing your Identity (pre-requisite to creating unkeyed metalminds) would result in them loosing their ability to store/tap (as it is partly a learned skill). Nicrosil as we know, only stores investiture in ones own spiritweb, not one connected to it. Aluminum has no expansion potential, that would require you to force your identity on some other investiture, outside of scope of all metallic arts.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Shardblades are investiture incarnate so their wounds can have the potential to be cleansed by aluminum. Shardblades are the penultimate weapon on Roshar so it is all but inconceivable that an ordinary looking person could come away unaffected by it to almost all of them.

Per coppermind, aluminum heals cognitive aspect, it will do nothing about physical wounds, no matter what the source of the physical wound.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity facilitates connection. As a Radiant attains a higher ideal there is a greater connection between the Radiant's and Spren's identities. they literally become part of one another sharing parts of their identity with each other. Or at least that is how I read it.

No, Identity identifies what investiture belongs to whom. Close connection does not imply shared identity, and again whatever connection the Radiant had, since the blade you are talking about is deadblade, the connection was explicitly broken.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There appears to be a link between a persons identity and their connection to allomancy. Identity is a foundational cross realm quality inseparably linked to connection. You really can't have one without the other. That is one of the reasons that aluminum fascinated me so much.

Really? What is the nature of this link? Please do say more.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Painrials only have as much pain as has been stored into them when the polarity is reversed as I remember. At least that is how Navani used it in the battle during OB.

Nope, you just take a fabrial press a button and you are done, no charging (outside of stormlight) necessary. She literally just puts it against the skin of someone and flips a switch.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Why do spren bond to anybody? All humans from their perspective have betrayed them and bonding to someone who shares part of the identity of their former Radiant would certainly be simpler for them.

Except the spren who do bond very clearly do not think that they can blame people currently alive for the sins of the past? Or they feel they need to to protect themselves from Odium? That is quite different from working with someone who killed someone(EDIT) you chose to bond with, I would even say that the Agent stealing (which is outside the scope of F-aluminum, but whatever) part of their partners souls would make them revile the Agent, not make it simpler. Me killing someones husband and then wearing their skin around them will not make it easier for them to accept me.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The attitude of non glowing people or people not in plate as being no threat to shardbearers, Radiants, or Fused has be expressed over and over. Shallon herself expressed that she was virtually un-killable. The scadrian is familar with their weapons but they are not familiar with his. Once he revived the blade he knew perhaps more than they did about radiants because of how he accomplished it. None of them survived long enough to recognize the threat. Before that first encounter he really didn't need to know about them he only needed to know that he should try and make a lethal shot such as to the head. Seeing armor that he is unfamiliar with is a big red flag to try and get around it. Seeing a big sword is another red flag to not let this person get close enough to use it before you shoot them. Its the sword to a gunfight idea.

Well, but if the Roshar is in conflict with Scadrial which has invested non-glowy people, why are they not more suspicous? Again, why do give information advantage to the Scadrian but deny it to Roshar?

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The stated difference between light and its anti is intention. Navani before she was bonded could use a Raysium dagger to drain light so why not a Soulbearer then invert the light through intention as he stores it?

Navani did it in specially equipped lab after weeks of experiments. And F-nicrosil does not allow you to modify what you are storing. Why do you keep insisting on adding on new things on known abilities? Nicrosil stores investiture, period. It does not change investiture.

And @BenduLuke

Quote

 I'm not insulting you I am trying to get you to think beyond your narrow view. The explanations I gave you are really quite basic and simple, but I can't make you understand. Tell me why it does what it does or accept my explanation.

calling someones views narrow and implying that they cannot understand basic and simple ideas is an insult.  When people disagree with you, you seem to have a tendency to take on a bit of condescending tone, implying that you are capable of great intuitive leaps, that your ideas are simple and those who do not see it are narrow minded.

No one has to accept your explanation which has no supporting basis whatsoever, outside of your own imagination.

Edited March 28, 2021 by therunner
Added quote, added words "who killed someone" into one sentence, as in ommitting them it changed the meaning of the sentence

[Frustration he/him]

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum potentially allows for a mixture of Identity perhaps even more effective and permanent than forging. Look I am still working out the quirks in my own mind and I get that you and others find the idea outrageous, but much in the cosmere is a big open void open to speculation even radical speculation like mine.

Identity doesn't store information exactly but it can potentially store knowledge like muscle memory or mastered understanding or experience so not exactly what copperminds do. Nicrosil seems to store investiture inherent in or connected to ones identity, but aluminum has the potential to expand ones identity which in turn could expand ones connections in the process.

You are free to theorize, but you theories are not cannon, the only person who's interpretation of the Cosmere matters is Brandon.

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Shardblades are investiture incarnate so their wounds can have the potential to be cleansed by aluminum. Shardblades are the penultimate weapon on Roshar so it is all but inconceivable that an ordinary looking person could come away unaffected by it to almost all of them.

Aluminum likely would cure it, but so does Stormlight, it isn't inconceivable, they see it all the time.

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity facilitates connection. As a Radiant attains a higher ideal there is a greater connection between the Radiant's and Spren's identities. they literally become part of one another sharing parts of their identity with each other. Or at least that is how I read it.

That is connection, not Identity.

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

There appears to be a link between a persons identity and their connection to allomancy. Identity is a foundational cross realm quality inseparably linked to connection. You really can't have one without the other. That is one of the reasons that aluminum fascinated me so much.

No, identity is not inseparable form connection.

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Why do spren bond to anybody? All humans from their perspective have betrayed them and bonding to someone who shares part of the identity of their former Radiant would certainly be simpler for them.

The ones that form bonds, are either ok with dying, or don't think that humans betrayed them, or dozens of other reasons, but they have them.

And how do you get the identity of a Deadman?

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No you haven't given me an alternate explanation.

Really? so, this didn't happen?

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The basic function of the Shardmetal, just as Lerasium can make someone a Mistborn.

 

7 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is at odds with what you want to believe about identity.

We know that identity is what differentiates individuals - fact

We know it is possible to have the same identity as someone without magic but it might as well be impossible - fact

we know Brandon compared it to DNA - fact3

we know the amount of breath an awakener has changes - fact

we know that awakeners can only get breaths out of objects they awakened because of Identity - fact

an awakener does not need the same number of breaths as when they awakened  an object to recover the breaths stored in the object - fact 

so if power changes identity an awakener could only get their breaths back from an object if they had the same number of breaths that they did when they awakened it but we know that they don't.

I don't see what any of that has to do with my belief.

Also double post.

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and my explaination doesn't contradict your because.

Incomplete thought

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I'm not insulting you I am trying to get you to think beyond your narrow view.

According to you I have a narrow view

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

What I mean to say by being not very imaginative is that the idea is very basic, but I am not going to do your thinking for you. This is one of those times when you reject logical evidence because you want to at best. I'll let you think on it. By all means come up with an alternate explanation as to why shardblades sever until then I wont contiure to spoon feed you what you seem to want to intentionally be confused about.

I suspect that it doesn't make sense to you because you choose to stop at because. That is the problem with because.

am incapable of comprehending a basic idea, need someone else to do my thinking for me, and can only think in terms of 'because'

seems like you are trying to insult me.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

This is one of those times when you reject logical evidence because you want to at best.

You are treating you opinions as evidence when they clearly are not

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The explanations I gave you are really quite basic and simple, but I can't make you understand. Tell me why it does what it does or accept my explanation.

again with the insults.

And on top of that, I have given you an explanation, but even if I hadn't not having an explanation myself isn't a reason for me to accept a factually incorrect explanation.

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Per coppermind, aluminum heals cognitive aspect, it will do nothing about physical wounds, no matter what the source of the physical wound.

it likely would be able to heal a shardblade wound.

[therunner he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

it likely would be able to heal a shardblade wound.

I agree when it comes to the first shadblade wound, the one that does not damage physical aspect. But any additional wounds done to the physical aspect after the first cut I do not think it would heal those. I apologize for not being clear enough in my post.

Edited March 27, 2021 by therunner
added last sentence

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, therunner said:

I agree when it comes to the first shadblade wound, the one that does not damage physical aspect. But any additional wounds done to the physical aspect after the first cut I do not think it would heal those.

no, those would not be healed, you are correct

[The Technovore he/him]

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Why do they cut the soul? Just because isn't an answer.

Shardblades cut in the Physical and Spiritual Realms because they are literally the bodies of spren. The Spiritual Realm is the realm of Investiture, Connection, and Identity, while the Physical Realm is the realm of Matter and Energy, and the Cognitive is the realm of minds, souls, and perceptions. Spren bridge all three realms. Their spark of life and their bodies comes from the Spiritual, their minds are sprung from the thoughts of humans, and through human thought and the Nahel bond they manifest in the Physical as godmetal. This is not a mistake, as we see godmetal first described in Mistborn as created "from the body of the Shard themself" which is significant in a theory I'm building.

This is why when Shardblades cut, they attack the soul directly, in the Spiritual Realm. All the surges work on similar principles. Gravitation. Adhesion. Cohesion. Soulcasting. They are all direct manipulations of Physical processes by manipulating the Cognitive and Spiritual components of objects and beings, fueled by the Investiture that leaks from the Spiritual to the Physical via the Shardic perpendicularities. Hemalurgy works on similar principles to this, using base-16 metals to attack the Spiritweb and steal components, with Ruin's Investiture fueling the interaction. Allomancy works on principles closer to the Dor on Sel. The Investiture of Preservation enters the Physical Realm to exert change, using the metals being burned to determine the effect the power has. If the main types of Invested Arts we see now are either based on affecting the Spiritweb or Directing Shardic Power, Feruchemy sits closely in the middle. Feruchemy allows one to use Investiture to manipulate and twist their own spiritweb in a series of ways.

I believe that Identity and Investiture when pertaining to spiritwebs describe two different parts of a spiritweb. I don't think it's Identity that allows a spren's body to cut in the Spiritual, but rather that because a Spren exists as living Investiture, and therefore is innately from the Spiritual Realm, the damage it does is direct to a spiritweb. You might use Connection/Identity shenanigans to speed up the recovery of a spren, but we won't know until the interaction between Adolin and Maya is properly explained. 

What I don't like about the Quicksilver scenario is that it requires a heavy amount of plot-power in Quicksilver. Quicksilver to do these things must have the aim of Waxillium, the competency of Kelsier, the virtue of Adolin, and the knowledge of Jasnah as well as the planning and foresight that could only come from being the direct servant of a Shard. If we're going to go that route, I could write a similar story about Heln the Edgedancer who under the direction of Cultivation did a bunch of Rosharan-magic hacking and teamed up with Kalak to go to Scadrial and steal the Bands of Mourning to open a perpendicularity on Scadrial and trap Odium in the Scadrian system. While mechanically I can jump through the mental hoops required to make it work mechanically, how likely is it to happen without a ton of plot-armor and authorial manipulations?

Edited March 28, 2021 by The Technovore

[VeryNiceName]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but I think it's entirely impossible to tap aluminum metalminds, just based off how we know it works. Aluminum in Feruchemy is described as removing powers, not stealing them, and there's never any description given at all as to what tapping aluminum does. It's Investiture inert, so my assumption is that it acts as a sink more than an actual storage of Investiture.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, VeryNiceName said:

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but I think it's entirely impossible to tap aluminum metalminds, just based off how we know it works. Aluminum in Feruchemy is described as removing powers, not stealing them, and there's never any description given at all as to what tapping aluminum does. It's Investiture inert, so my assumption is that it acts as a sink more than an actual storage of Investiture.

It's a point of debate in the fandom, in some WoB's it seems Branon acts like you can so I'm going with it.

Nice name by the way.

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, VeryNiceName said:

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but I think it's entirely impossible to tap aluminum metalminds, just based off how we know it works. Aluminum in Feruchemy is described as removing powers, not stealing them, and there's never any description given at all as to what tapping aluminum does. It's Investiture inert, so my assumption is that it acts as a sink more than an actual storage of Investiture.

Are you by any chance mixing up Hemalurgy with Feruchemy?

Per Feruchemy chart (https://coppermind.net/w/images/Feruchemical_table.jpg) Aluminum stores identity, not removes powers. Although there is this WoB(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13235) that suggests that it might act like Identity sink, and not being tapable, as he did not refute it. Then again there are other WoB saying that tapping of Aluminum can heal cognitive/spiritual wounds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7836), implying  that tapping of Aluminum minds is possible

It is in Hemalurgy (https://coppermind.net/w/images/thumb/Hemalurgy_table.jpg/1920px-Hemalurgy_table.jpg) where Aluminum removes all powers.

But the idea that since Aluminum is normally investiture inert would interfere with its Feruchemy sounds reasonable to me. Btw, you have great name, how did you come up with it?

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Then again there are other WoB saying that tapping of Aluminum can heal cognitive/spiritual wounds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7836), implying  that tapping of Aluminum minds is possible

Tbf, he does say "...but it's gonna take a roundabout method to make it happen...", so it's possible that could refer to that. (On the other hand, there are other things it could mean, so it's not a confirmation by any stretch.)

Quote

Why do they cut the soul? Just because isn't an answer.

@BenduLuke Brandon's mentioned that godmetals pierce the Realms a bit. Presumably that's why. You cut the person Physically, and the sword passes through their other aspects too. (That's my theory on it, anyway.)

Edited March 28, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope
add response to another message

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

 

@BenduLuke Brandon's mentioned that godmetals pierce the Realms a bit. Presumably that's why. You cut the person Physically, and the sword passes through their other aspects too. (That's my theory on it, anyway.)

So... wait. Would an Atium sword do that too?

[Frustration he/him]

18 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

So... wait. Would an Atium sword do that too?

It's possible, but I don't think so. We know you can make some form of Shardblades using most magic systems, but I don't think Atium on its own will cut it.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

It's possible, but I don't think so. We know you can make some form of Shardblades using most magic systems, but I don't think Atium on its own will cut it.

also you can Push/pull Atium when you can't do that with a shardblade.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

So... wait. Would an Atium sword do that too?

I think it's probably possible, but I'm not sure if it'd be automatic or not. Atium plays kind of weirdly with some of these rules. But imo, theoretically it should. Atium's oddities might tie into whatever the heck "must be refined" is referring to on the Hemalurgic table?

Edited March 29, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[therunner he/him]

9 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

So... wait. Would an Atium sword do that too?

Hmm, interesting question. On first thought I would say yes, as it is also solid investiture. But on second thought there are some differences,

1. Atium is pullable/pushable. While originally a mistake, it is now part of canon, so that is one oddity and difference.
2. Shardblades and even deadblades are not only a piece of solid investiture, but also a physical "body" of a creature (spren) with some spiritweb and remaining cognitive aspect. Atium seemingly has neither. Altough Honorblades being not from spren should also have neither spiritweb nor cognitive aspect, and yet they do the same as Shardblades.

Since we have already seen semi shardblades from other planets created even without godmetals like Nightblood (although he is seemingly exceptional even among these) and Vivienna's blade, I would assume that using atium in creation of Scadrian "shardblade" might make it easier to do so. Interestingly Vivienna's blade effect is not the same as shardblades, so it is possible that the shardblades "severing of soul" aspect might be unique to some extent or at least require godmetals levels of investiture (as Nightblood has).

Edited March 29, 2021 by therunner

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Interestingly Vivienna's blade effect is not the same as shardblades, so it is possible that the shardblades "severing of soul" aspect might be unique to some extent or at least require godmetals levels of investiture (as Nightblood has).

It makes sense to me that the exact effect can vary from place to place. For example, the eyes burning out is probably a mostly thematic thing due to how important eyes are on Roshar (Radiants, Regals, Fused, deadeyes, etc all have stuff going on with their eyes). Vivenna's Blade does seemingly behave similarly to Nightblood, however, just on a much less powerful level.

Shameless self-promo: I have a theory on this stuff, which I'll probably do a revision of later today because I've had some thoughts on some of the parts I was super confused on in the original theory.

[therunner he/him]

46 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It makes sense to me that the exact effect can vary from place to place. For example, the eyes burning out is probably a mostly thematic thing due to how important eyes are on Roshar (Radiants, Regals, Fused, deadeyes, etc all have stuff going on with their eyes). Vivenna's Blade does seemingly behave similarly to Nightblood, however, just on a much less powerful level.

Shameless self-promo: I have a theory on this stuff, which I'll probably do a revision of later today because I've had some thoughts on some of the parts I was super confused on in the original theory.

Good point on Vivenna's Blade, I misremembred how it acts. You do have point with the thematic thing, as Rosharan blades burn out eyes and eyes are important on Roshar, whereas Vivenna's Blade drains color from those she kills, color being important of Nalthis. Wonder what the Scadrian or Selish equivalents would be, maybe smoking/misting bodies for Scadrians?

Thanks for the link to theory, I will have a look.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

Good point on Vivenna's Blade, I misremembred how it acts. You do have point with the thematic thing, as Rosharan blades burn out eyes and eyes are important on Roshar, whereas Vivenna's Blade drains color from those she kills, color being important of Nalthis. Wonder what the Scadrian or Selish equivalents would be, maybe smoking/misting bodies for Scadrians?

I do think that it's somewhat complicated by the fact that Nightblood and Vivenna's Blade were presumably Awakened with a specific Command and Intent, but the fact that they drain color just like Awakening doesn't feel like a coincidence to me.

Mist seems like something that would fit Scadrial, yeah. Not super sure if it'd do that or not (just because it's a lot more dramatic than the others we've seen besides Nightblood), but I can't think of anything else that ties into the planet thematically as well as the mists do.