Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

therunner · March 24, 2021

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A balanced approach does mean looking at potential extremes. Radiants of 4th Ideal are the extreme for now, the average are 2nd Ideal who lack sword, armor, and most of their healing and burn stormlight very fast. So to attempt to compare the extreme 4th ideal I imagine potential extreme metal metalborn. I intentionally try to imagine metalborn who I think could stand up to extreme Radiants given assets metalborn might have era 2 and weaknesses Radiants have post ROW. So yeah I tend to skew my senerio's toward metalborn since there seems to be such a bias toward Radiants most of whom are not comparable to a Kal, or Dalinar in combat.

Maybe I am ignorant but I have always seen the cutting ability of shardblades as a magical invested ability not a material ability since they don't actually cut living flesh so by touching the blade a Leecher might be able to nullify that aspect of a shardblades ability. It would also potentially lock the living blade into its current form. Of course it might reqiure the blade catching trick Kal learned. My basis is in the statement that Leechers can nullify abilities of invested weapons in the coppermind.

Even hitting someone moving at over 100 mph would be extremely difficult and Steel compounders could move much faster than that before wind or friction becomes a problem.

We still don't know what the actual heat resistance of shardplate is and it wasn't just heat but the nullifying effects of aluminum that I was referring to. Though I may be wrong I don't see any difference between chemical burning and allomantic burning of metal.

The Iron mechanical armor would require practice to move naturally.

It is the Soulbearer ferring that divides the invested abilities inherent in pewter burning Just like windwhisper splits the senses.

I don't think the Radiant in that situation would be as fast or strong.

4th ideal Radiants are outliers so need to be confronted with metalborn outliers. Most people I have seen promoting Radiants lean toward extreme Radiants.

Citation: A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Chromium

4th oath Radiant are not extreme case, there used to be hundreds of them, the pinnacle of Surgebinding are either 5th oath Radiants or Heralds with still living Honor. Either way, 4th oath Radiants are not pinnacle of their magic system, whereas Mistborn are (fullborn come from interaction of 2 magic systems, and who knows what such interactions will bring on Roshar). In most scenarios people do not put Kal/Dalinar against mistborn, they put someone in living plate with living blade with some combat training against metalborn, at best they use passive feats ('Fell 'x' stories in deadplate without any harm') not skills. If we did Mistborn have no chance as even 3rd oath Kal could take Vin in open battle (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854 , and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018) and that we before plate and Vin is a prodigy even Kelsier marvels at.

Without investing cutting it is still 6 feet long ordinarily sharp blade wielded by someone with superstrength, more than enough to kill Leecher.

Hitting them would be hard I agree (altough you could try to use big nets), that is why I consider them to be one of the few that might have a chance with the right equipment. However WoB suggests that under the same setting A-pewter/f-steel is faster in short races than f-twin, so compounding is not much of an advantage.

I provided some estimates and detailed calculation, even if melting point of shardplate is comparable to steel the bullet would still not burn through because large part of the resistence comes from the large mass of shardplate. For a single bullet to melt through plate it would need to start melting at around 600 celsius, so on Roshar someone would have noticed that and they might have tried to smelt it already.

I do not dispute that it would take practice, I dispute it would be realistic in battle for anyone without f-zinc (and maybe even then). For a single limb you would need 8 pulleys (2 for every joint + 2 for rotating) since you can only pull, just for the limbs (and that is ignoring fingers) you would need to constantly coordinate 32 different pulleys. Add neck, torso, the fact that hands have more degrees of freedom than legs and you are looking at ~50 different pulleyes they need to coordinate in realm time just to move, not to mention fight, that is a gigantic disadvantage. And that ignores the fact that manually walking is hard, there is a reason why robots still kinda suck at moving around on 2 legs.

F-nicrosil does not allow you to divide singular investiture, to the best of our knowledge, nothing even hints at this.

Why would they not be as fast or as strong, and what situation do you mean specifically? The one with leecher? They do not need to be much faster than a normal person, in fact normal speed is enough (and plate is still 20 people strong at least).

4th ideal Radiant are not outliers (adressed above).

Preventing summoning is not the same as negating passive invested effect, the second part refers to weapon which seems to actively use investiture, so like fabrial.

13 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Which is why, it is far more than triple, when flaired. I am talking about a DURALIMIN BURN. Not just 'walking around for hours far stronger than normal, like 3x stronger than normal with my flairing'. I am talking about having hours of that enhanced strength, burned all in one moment, giving them potentially THOUSANDS of times the strength and speed of them normally, all in once, draining all of their metal, focused on the point of a hammer designed to smash through shardplate. That will send them flying just as well, and it would hurt far more than that fall, and it would be so impactful that yes, they would have time to take that now spent pewter refill. Provided it landed correctly, which if they were on pewter, that should have made them graceful enough to land that...

Flared is generally spoke of as tripling the strength. The duralumin burn would enhance the power about 10x, so to 20-30x (someone on forum did math on this) but it would at least in part depend on how much pewter they have and how duralumin functions exactly. Either way, someone with shardhammer and pewter/duralumin would most likely be able to shatter the helm and most likely kill the Radiant. Of course Radiant is not just going to stand there and take it, they could shield themselves with blade shifted into shield, cut the haft of the hammer mid strike with blade, run away (they are just as fast), try to dodge or try to catch the hammer. Of course if Mistborn has atium they would most likely land that strike.

12 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Vs most radiants, it is enough to end the fight when applied properly, and I have faith in the pewter reflexes + steel abilities to put them in the correct position far more than not, in the hands of a veteran mistborn to land it. While it is true, using their legs would shatter them, as pointed out, they don't need to use their legs. This becomes a battle of two with battle breaking attacks that will end it if either side lands it. Hence, my 50/50 estimate vs the 4th oath, with the edge only going to mistborns in the battle of veterans, who know what they are up against, and know how to exploit that ability.

Most of the things required to kill Radiant require duralumin to work, that would exhaust Mistborn faster than a Radiant and a Radiant can heal a blow which does not kill them. We know that in battle of prodigies (Vin vs Kal) Kal wins in open battle just on 3rd oath, put him in plate and it is not much contest. I would imagine a veteran Radiant vs veteran Mistborn would go mostly the same way.

Quote

If the Skybreaker or Windrunner is of the fourth oath, and are actually running into the sky, I would imagine the best option would be to use something like coinshot + duralamin, hitting far harder than a gun blast. It might not break the plate, but over time I could see it doing that. And enough to make them try and commit instead of just running. With practice, having that extra pewter handy when they get angry enough, and then you can end up using your reflexes and landing that critical blow of many thousands of times the strength of a human blow, with a very powerful weapon.

Unlike most flying objects or target Mistborn are used to, both Skybreakers and Windrunner constantly accelerate. Hitting a moving target is hard enough, hitting a target that is at every momement moving at different speed would be harder still.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

In terms of accuracy, Vin ended up trying to learn, and perfecting movement on floating on pin pricks, from Zane, who had the agility control to not move, at a perfect position in gravity, find it, on nothing but a single coin, almost like walking. As these mistborns pushed themselves, they could do things that only with their agility could they do, and they have ways to force their balance and body to a degree that shardplate, simply can't practice, even if the body movements would have more power to jump faster. They have combat feats, no one I can see has matched, from flying down through stairwells, around the outside, to over the floor of a fortification, while fighting some 30 guys (knowing they can kill, so not like these shardplate wars where they can tank everything, no, she was dodging, far more impressive in agility in the overall package), while then simultanouesly pulling on metal from various points, in that one battle where she ended up massacring some like thousand people in like 10 minutes. Granted, Zane did help clear some other floors. But she was hauling, moving at speeds around obstacles, between floors, and attacks, that if it was just the way Dalinar or Kaladin's "had an urge to move" in combat was described, I think she would have died if she was moving that slow. Granted, she was next level, but her potential was still low compared to a full mistborn like Elend, and when they start to come back (I think they will at some point), they will have her stories to really practice and take all of this to the next level. No, you are not going to win this point here I don't think. So many different fights, where we can see all the things they can do with their body in movement. Things they HAVE to do to survive, something that Kaladin and the rest have much less to worry about.

So you take Vin (a prodigy) and Zane (improved with hemalurgy) or Kelsier (even greater prodigy when it comes to steel and iron) and use them as you example of ordinary Mistborn? In that case we should probably take Kal as example of Windrunner, and again per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018) he wins just with blade in open battle. If you put Mistborn some where with a lot of metal they will have maneurability advantage over orders without gravitation, but gravitation is just better in every regard then steel/iron combo (constant acceleration, ability to change directions on a dime, not being limited by presence of metal in desired direction).

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

It should be noticed, a non-full metalborn, but a twinborn in Wax, is doing things like flying about, and mid-air having the concentration to shoot guns out of people's hands, and does a lot of the same amazing things that Vin, Zane did. Maybe neither of them have the inhuman marksmanship down, guns didn't exist. But a huge amount of the same style showcasing of simple impossibilities with agility in combat in combinations of flying, coinshot movements with precision (that is always the key for them), are there. It seems to be a thing with them, and with Vin and Zane, they have the Pewter and Tin to help with the metalsight and pushing/pulling body precision of center as well. It just all gels, and we have enough different sources from different users of it, where anything short of Dalinar jumping outside, running at different angles around between 10 attackers, while launching absolutely stellar distant attacks, and close ones is going to cut if for me. No, they do not have the agility. They might possibly have better straightforward speed from leg power, and that is only in some circumstances. But that isn't the whole package of how much better I feel a full mistborn is in potential to them. Some orders might get it closer, like 3 to 4, with either gravity lashings or friction alteration. But I still feel in general, they are simply outclassed in the ability to simply exist in motion, dodging everything, hitting everything, aka - the upper reaches of dexterous combat maneuverability. I understand it isn't "everything" in that last hyperbolic sentence, as not everything can be, but it is the closest I have seen it to perfect anywhere in the Cosmere, and sometimes better sword training would have done more where the combat speed was more than there.

Again Wax is quite special, even he wonders at his abilities and the other 2 people with his abilities did not seem to demonstrate such skill (no one ever talks about them, outside of one mention by Khriss). I do agree that Vin is quite legendary with her skill, but in all those situations she had ample metal around, and that is the key limitation of mistborn, put them somewhere without all this metal and they are quite frankly done for. Mistborn are more agile, but Radiants are faster and stronger on average and do not risk pewter drag. And edgedancers might yet edge out (pun intended) mistborn as the most agile, as Lift seems to be particularly bad at it (she is envious of other Edgedancers and their grace + the fused with abrasion had no such problems as she did.

The problem with Mistborn and Radiants is then when Radiants are on 4th oath, Mistborn is better at one or two things against any particular order, but worse in others. Their only way to properly attack is to use duralumin, but even then they better not get too close as in close combat Radiants holds vast advantage, if they sniped Radiants from a distance with duralumin enhanced pushes that might be a way to go.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Oh, and btw, when they need pure speed, when top speed actually matters, Vin traveled from the Fadrex to Luthadel, in a much shorter span of time shorter than Kaladin took from the Scattered Plains to 90 miles out of his hometown. Now the distance though, that we need to calculate. It's not like they both can't travel large distances in a heartbeat.

Kal traveled across almost half the continent (which has size 4*10^7 km^2, based on its shape, it is roughly 4000 km across in the direction of kaladins flight) so Kal flew ~2000 km in half a day. He himslef describes it as over 1000 miles, so we can conservatively go with 1600 km. Distance of Fadrex and Luthadel is less known, however the road from Fedrax to Urteau is described as several months. Caravans can travel at 50 km per day, so 4 month trip would be about 2000 km, Luthadel is closer than to Fadrex then Urteau by ~ 0.8 coefficient (they form a triangle and the longest leg is F-U line), so the distance from Fedrax to Luthadel is ~1600 km, which Vin traveled in one day.

Ergo Kal at top speed (~134 km/h) is considerably faster than Vin at top speed (80 km/h assuming she traveled only 20 hours not full day). So 3rd oath Windrunner is faster than Mistborn.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Oh, that's all? Hang around the one guy in the world who can prevent atium from giving them the victory? Not even going to bother to respond to that one, I think just bringing up the question is enough, unless you don't. Anyway, why does it take 2-3 bullets at best to kill? Ok, we have confirmation, in the books of the stormlight archives, it takes 2, or 3 strikes of a shardhammer to BREAK plate. We know it isn't special metal, or a special hammer, other than it was simply made super heavy and strong that only a shardbearer could wield it. We also know that it takes about 2 guys to lift the thing. All of this we know. We also know that pewter flairing, with 3x strength, that should be more than enough to still even be agile with it. And with practice, probably even easier.

Negating atium is nothing to scoff at, and since Renarin interferes with future sight in general it might interfere even with electrum. 2-3 bullets is from WoB, mistborn with shardhammer could break plate I do agree with that, but would they still be more agile or faster lugging it around? Part of their great agility comes from Mistborn being very lightly armored, if they need to drag around hammer that weight the same as them it is going to hamper their agility significantly. And while Mistborn is flaring pewter to just move the hammer around comfortably, the Radiant does not need to exert themselves to that extent at all, so even Vin with such hammer would be even slower compared to Windrunner/Skybreaker for example.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

None of these facts are really contestable. It is how the magic, the metals, the plate, the shardhammer, everything, has been described, in all of their books. It is how these things should work, when brought together, by a mistborn who knew that they were going to have to be fighting radiants, and decided to have such a hammer made, and practiced with it, should be doing. Just because mistborns haven't need to ever use such an overkill use of duralamen towards a single point target in the past with a hammer, only means they never had to face something like shardbearers to force themself to have to learn to use their powers and abilities in ways to actually damage them. Like, really f them up. Because that is what the power we are talking about should add up to. Vin did something similar, and exploded a man's skull. Completely via unarmed means, without even applying that much effort, it was the dura+pewter strength. I don't even remember seeing shardplate do that, even when hitting unarmed foes, which we have seen. Now, could you imagine if a mistborn like that, was holding a shardhammer when that happened, and hit ANYONE with it? Much more, focused on a single point, with full force, and not a sweeping attack? Maybe no one else in this thread imagined it, but I almost immediately saw the possibilities with it. One hitting a shardbearer should be easy.

But why are you giving all the information advantage to mistborn? Why should mistborn know exactly who are they fighting, with their strengths and weakness? If we give the same knowledge of mistborn to Radiants, they can anticipate what tactics mistborn might use (duralumin flaring with hammers, or duralumin flared coinshots) and prepare accordingly. They could prepare flashbangs (or anything that makes loud noise/bright light) to stun tin burning Mistborn, for example. They could have large weighted nets made to inhibit their movement, equip themselves with half-shards for shields or other things.

Also why would the Radiant just stand there and let themselves be hit? In plate they are faster than mistborn flaring pewter and even stronger, outside of the duralumin flare they can outrun and overpower the Mistborn. Not to mention they could block the hammer with sprenblade formed into a spear, or cut the haft, or shape blade into a shield, or dodge or try to wrest the hammer away, they have many ways to try and counter it. Sure if the mistborn lands the hit on Radiants head with shardhammer powered by duralumin-pewter they kill Radiant, but before this happens Radiant has many ways to prevent it.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

You do realize, she figured out how to use pulls and pushes to actually STAY afloat, and never hit the ground? With only 2 or 3 rotating horseshoes? Elend figured out the same thing in a few hours, but ended up using coins iirc (not horseshoes, I remember that for sure, but he was looking for them). Neither the horseshoes nor the mistborn ever touches the ground.

And it requires more coordination than what Windrunner/Skybreaker has to do, and if anyone removes the metal (maybe someone with soulcasting) or moves it (maybe someone with tension, cohesion) or makes the coins slippery (maybe someone with abrasion) they lose that support and lose balance.

And if remember correctly the horseshoes were touching the ground

Push from shoe on the ground behind you.
Pull on the shoe on the ground in front of you and pull on the shoe behind you to throw it ahead).
Fly over the shoe that started in front of you and repeat.

EDIT: The passage in WoA is clear, the horseshoes/coins do touch ground, to quote (WoA, pg. 675):

"Eventually, she had three shoes working pretty well; it helped that the ground was wet, and that their weight pressed the horseshoes down in the mud, giving her a stronger anchor to use when Pushing herself forward."

She then adds fourth and fifth shoes, but nowhere does it say that horseshoes stop touching ground.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

That might as well be true flight, it might be magnetic cylindrical action, of pulling on one, pushing the other out, pushing on the other at an angle, then throwing the back one now forward, and repeat, but it is controlled, just as surely as a jet aircraft engine. That is flight, and so is that. This isn't the guided hopping they started with. Unending, controlled flight, and it doesn't matter what ANYONE does by making the ground liquid. Because they WOULD NOT have to touch it. These are the mistborns they will face in almost all certainty in the future.

I think people discounting the ability to actually fly now probably are more trapped in the thinking of pure coinshots or era2. It's been awhile since we had a true mistborn, one that can both pull and push. You need to be able to do both to then avoid the ground as your anchor point. And then simply practice for a few hours, and then you can then master moving all of your anchor points till you can fly at hundreds of miles an hour with all your anchors coming with you across the country

This is not flight, it is magic assisted jumping around. Remove the metal and they fall, move the metal unexpectedly and they lose balance, they still need the support of the ground ergo it is not flight. The coins still have to touch the ground, so not having solid ground would be huge detriment to them or having slippery coins or slippery ground (abrasion says hello). And you are forgetting that Vin did not do this in battle but when all she had to do was move, and even then it required some focus on her part. It is no way shape or form flight, it mimics it very well if you have good grounding points, but you still need those. Windrunner/Skybreaker can fly just as well over a ground as they can over lakes or oceans, mistborn not so much.

Not even Vin was moving that fast (per calculation above) at best she might do around 100km/h with the pull/push method under ideal conditions (and I doubt that). We have never seen anyone both pushing and pulling on the same metal to move themselves around, not even Kelsier who was steel/iron prodigy. In principle I can see it (pull stronger than pushing and launch yourselve), but the coins can still be soulcasted away, and their direction of movement is limited by the location of their coins.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

But it makes sense, both from a story standpoint and a mathematics standpoint from a basic level, knowing the attacks, powers and values. This is the if they were never seen dying in a black hole, they are to be assumed to be black hole proof argument. #Facts. #RadientsAreTougherThanABlackHole.

The black hole part is a strawman and you know it, no one argues that if not shown it does not work. We all agree plate could be broken through with 2-3 bullets, so maybe with 2-3 duralumin-steel pushes as well.

Radiants can be killed, even Radiants in plate...most people just think it is very difficult for a Mistborn to pull off in full on battle without assistance of atium. Radiant in plate is stronger and faster just due to plate than pewter flaring mistborn. They have better shortrange offense (blade) than mistborn and can heal themselves. Mistborn with duralumin+pewter is stronger but only for second or two, so all hinges on what they can do in those 2 seconds, if they fail Radiant kills them, and Radiant has more ways to counter pure brute strength attack than Mistborn does.

Mistborn catching Radiant off-guard? They have tools to do that, and tools to stop them from bringing their offense and healing to bear (chromium), so there Mistborn could kill 4th oath Radiant. Just how easy it would be depends on how fast they can leech away stormlight.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Or maybe that they are all more mortal as a concept of the descriptions of their powers, but most of the characters have unending plot armor for what SHOULD kill a person who normally would have killed them with their powers? I can think of a number of times that happened.

Do provide some examples please, if there is a number of times it happened.

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

It wouldn't make logical sense for them to fear the fuzed at all if they were all as nigh indestructible as you claim. They might as well all march and take back the Alethic capital in force at this point, if you can't kill them by anything but the supernatural means of smashing their helmet and crashing their skulls. That makes no story sense though, so I assume they aren't nearly so powerful, which I think is the reasonable thing we should do.

Well in story they have two, maybe three people with plate by the end of RoW, so of course they fear Fused who have thousands year of experience and weapons draining stormlight at distance. Without plate mistborn has considerably better chance (about on par I would say, but it would depend on particular order).

6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

No, they have true flight at this point. Read my last reply to @Frustration for my rational. By the time such a fight like this is likely to happen for me, I would also imagine these mistborns would be practiced in the ways of Vin, the legend. And probably by a newer infusion of pure mistborn lines, if I had to guess.

They would have the same flight that you could call any jet aircraft from having, not relying on the ground at all.

Vin was never flying around without ground support as far as I know (even the horseshoe trick needed ground). In fact we have seen exactly zero people do that, even Kelsier did not do that and he was more skilled with steel/iron than Vin is. In principle doable I guess, but it still leaves them open to soulcasting attacks. It would also require more coordination than lashing does, so air superiority still goes to Windrunners/Skybreakers.

Edited March 24, 2021 by therunner
Clarified at few points that I mean radiant in plate in my considerations, added a point about horseshoes touching ground

Bigmikey357 · March 24, 2021

@AirsickAviar

I'm going to have to disagree about how powerful you believe that duraluminum is. It's a game changer but it's nowhere near a 3000x force multiplier. 10x? Sure. Maybe even 20x. I could see that. But ascribing that sort of power to them would mean that Vin could drink a vial, go up to a Thunderclast or Chasmfiend and punch a hole right through them without any ill effects.

You do realize that the fall that killed Gavilar would not have killed a Radiant right? You do also realize that the punch he delivered to Szeth would have killed him if he did not have Stormlight healing?

You keep pointing to Vin slaughtering Cett's troops in like 10 minutes but she had a couple things going for her. They were unprepared. They all had a crapload of metal on them thus giving her an entire arsenal of weaponry to use. She was fighting in an enclosed space,, thus limiting the number of opponents that could face her at one time. And she had duraluminum, mostly an unknown weapon at the time. She got her butt kicked when she faced someone who could use duraluminum too. But whatever, what she accomplished in that building was impressive. Scary even. Dalinar was doing the equivalent of that massacre 2 to 3 times a week for 6 years on the Shattered Plains. His battle strategy was to jump a 30 to 40 ft chasm, land and hold off an entire army who'd love nothing better than to topple him and steal his Shards for minutes at a time while his army positioned themselves behind him. Vin killed a lot of people. Dalinar, even Sadeas would laugh out loud at her body count. Adolin would be too nice to chuckle.

Mistborn have a ridiculous amount of skill and with practice can do some truly remarkable things. But they'd have a hard time fighting an unenhanced human with Dead Plate and a Dead Blade and no healing factor and no Surges. I would expect them to eventually win that fight but I don't think it'd be a walk in the park. If I'm the Mistborn I'm not trying to go head up with a 4th Ideal Radiant for love or money. Reason why? Because even if I could win I could not expect to not take damage. I'd be lucky if my opponent broke my arm or leg or something. I could heal from that though it'd take awhile (less time burning pewter but it's not like I'm fighting again tomorrow) . Nothing but a Radiant healer is going to be able to heal a Shardblade deadened limb.

Personally I think that with all the skills a Mistborn possesses, using them to go head to head against a Radiant is a waste of resources. Plus Mistborn are so rare that any loss of one is nearly irreplaceable. Lose a Radiant, another one is coming down the pipeline. I know it's fun to look at these match-ups in terms of head to head duels but really there are far easier ways to kill a Radiant than what I've seen proposed on this and other threads. Sure if you take the least battle talented Radiant and pit him against a Mistborn veteran of 100 battles with full knowledge of surges, guns and aluminum armor plus medallions so he can compound and an Atium kicker I bet he could win quite often. But if you have to buff one side to the point of ridiculousness just to have a chance against the other then really, who is the more powerful foe? And besides, how many of those super soldiers would you expect to be able to field?

IMO the best way for a Metallic Arts user to kill a Surgebinder is to murder him before they even know they are in danger.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Bigmikey357

Frustration · March 24, 2021

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Pure forward motion, with assisted power and strength, yeah, they can move fast in shardplate. More speed than pure agility, but it is still part of the puzzle. They have the urge to move. Yeah, still not impressed. In terms of accuracy, Vin ended up trying to learn, and perfecting movement on floating on pin pricks, from Zane, who had the agility control to not move, at a perfect position in gravity, find it, on nothing but a single coin, almost like walking. As these mistborns pushed themselves, they could do things that only with their agility could they do, and they have ways to force their balance and body to a degree that shardplate, simply can't practice, even if the body movements would have more power to jump faster. They have combat feats, no one I can see has matched, from flying down through stairwells, around the outside, to over the floor of a fortification, while fighting some 30 guys (knowing they can kill, so not like these shardplate wars where they can tank everything, no, she was dodging, far more impressive in agility in the overall package), while then simultanouesly pulling on metal from various points, in that one battle where she ended up massacring some like thousand people in like 10 minutes. Granted, Zane did help clear some other floors. But she was hauling, moving at speeds around obstacles, between floors, and attacks, that if it was just the way Dalinar or Kaladin's "had an urge to move" in combat was described, I think she would have died if she was moving that slow. Granted, she was next level, but her potential was still low compared to a full mistborn like Elend, and when they start to come back (I think they will at some point), they will have her stories to really practice and take all of this to the next level. No, you are not going to win this point here I don't think. So many different fights, where we can see all the things they can do with their body in movement. Things they HAVE to do to survive, something that Kaladin and the rest have much less to worry about.

It should be noticed, a non-full metalborn, but a twinborn in Wax, is doing things like flying about, and mid-air having the concentration to shoot guns out of people's hands, and does a lot of the same amazing things that Vin, Zane did. Maybe neither of them have the inhuman marksmanship down, guns didn't exist. But a huge amount of the same style showcasing of simple impossibilities with agility in combat in combinations of flying, coinshot movements with precision (that is always the key for them), are there. It seems to be a thing with them, and with Vin and Zane, they have the Pewter and Tin to help with the metalsight and pushing/pulling body precision of center as well. It just all gels, and we have enough different sources from different users of it, where anything short of Dalinar jumping outside, running at different angles around between 10 attackers, while launching absolutely stellar distant attacks, and close ones is going to cut if for me. No, they do not have the agility. They might possibly have better straightforward speed from leg power, and that is only in some circumstances. But that isn't the whole package of how much better I feel a full mistborn is in potential to them. Some orders might get it closer, like 3 to 4, with either gravity lashings or friction alteration. But I still feel in general, they are simply outclassed in the ability to simply exist in motion, dodging everything, hitting everything, aka - the upper reaches of dexterous combat maneuverability. I understand it isn't "everything" in that last hyperbolic sentence, as not everything can be, but it is the closest I have seen it to perfect anywhere in the Cosmere, and sometimes better sword training would have done more where the combat speed was more than there.

Oh, and btw, when they need pure speed, when top speed actually matters, Vin traveled from the Fadrex to Luthadel, in a much shorter span of time shorter than Kaladin took from the Scattered Plains to 90 miles out of his hometown. Now the distance though, that we need to calculate. It's not like they both can't travel large distances in a heartbeat.

Reread the battle of the tower again, Kaladin didn't take hits from the parshendi he dodged them, blocked them and countered, against an army, not tens of individuals.

On top of that Windrunners only real speedcap is that they can't go the speed of light, they have controll of gravity and pressure and vacuum, so terminal velocity isn't an issue.

Abrasion also removes air resistance, and transportation allows you to outright teleport.

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Oh, that's all? Hang around the one guy in the world who can prevent atium from giving them the victory? Not even going to bother to respond to that one, I think just bringing up the question is enough, unless you don't. Anyway, why does it take 2-3 bullets at best to kill? Ok, we have confirmation, in the books of the stormlight archives, it takes 2, or 3 strikes of a shardhammer to BREAK plate. We know it isn't special metal, or a special hammer, other than it was simply made super heavy and strong that only a shardbearer could wield it. We also know that it takes about 2 guys to lift the thing. All of this we know. We also know that pewter flairing, with 3x strength, that should be more than enough to still even be agile with it. And with practice, probably even easier.

There are two, and both spren talk of more, they are not one off occurances, corrupted Radiants will still be a thing.

It takes two men to lift the hammer, if they could carry it then they would instead they bring it out on carts, in all likelyhood Mistborn would need to flare Pewter to even use it in the first place. Shardplate gives so much extra strength that individuals have to try NOT to break metal canteens, when aside form Duralumin has a Mistborn ever been in that possition?

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

None of these facts are really contestable. It is how the magic, the metals, the plate, the shardhammer, everything, has been described, in all of their books. It is how these things should work, when brought together, by a mistborn who knew that they were going to have to be fighting radiants, and decided to have such a hammer made, and practiced with it, should be doing. Just because mistborns haven't need to ever use such an overkill use of duralamen towards a single point target in the past with a hammer, only means they never had to face something like shardbearers to force themself to have to learn to use their powers and abilities in ways to actually damage them. Like, really f them up. Because that is what the power we are talking about should add up to. Vin did something similar, and exploded a man's skull. Completely via unarmed means, without even applying that much effort, it was the dura+pewter strength. I don't even remember seeing shardplate do that, even when hitting unarmed foes, which we have seen. Now, could you imagine if a mistborn like that, was holding a shardhammer when that happened, and hit ANYONE with it? Much more, focused on a single point, with full force, and not a sweeping attack? Maybe no one else in this thread imagined it, but I almost immediately saw the possibilities with it. One hitting a shardbearer should be easy.

Can you honestly tell me that one Mistborn would hit harder than a rockslide? Twice as hard? Becasue Dalinar surrvived two relativly unharmed.

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

And no, it would not take an absurd amount of Pewter. Just enough to have a normal load, that would normally last you hours. Like, not even a vial. And then a little bit of dura.

One hit from a shardhammer would have the same effect as Vin smashing a Guy's head in, so I don't get why all of a sudden it gets dozens of times stronger.

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

You do realize, she figured out how to use pulls and pushes to actually STAY afloat, and never hit the ground? With only 2 or 3 rotating horseshoes? Elend figured out the same thing in a few hours, but ended up using coins iirc (not horseshoes, I remember that for sure, but he was looking for them). Neither the horseshoes nor the mistborn ever touches the ground.

That might as well be true flight, it might be magnetic cylindrical action, of pulling on one, pushing the other out, pushing on the other at an angle, then throwing the back one now forward, and repeat, but it is controlled, just as surely as a jet aircraft engine. That is flight, and so is that. This isn't the guided hopping they started with. Unending, controlled flight, and it doesn't matter what ANYONE does by making the ground liquid. Because they WOULD NOT have to touch it. These are the mistborns they will face in almost all certainty in the future.

I think people discounting the ability to actually fly now probably are more trapped in the thinking of pure coinshots or era2. It's been awhile since we had a true mistborn, one that can both pull and push. You need to be able to do both to then avoid the ground as your anchor point. And then simply practice for a few hours, and then you can then master moving all of your anchor points till you can fly at hundreds of miles an hour with all your anchors coming with you across the country

She can't keept herself and her anchers afloat, they have to touch the ground that's how the magic works, if the anchors touch, they will sink, and the mistborn dropps with them.

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

But it makes sense, both from a story standpoint and a mathematics standpoint from a basic level, knowing the attacks, powers and values. This is the if they were never seen dying in a black hole, they are to be assumed to be black hole proof argument. #Facts. #RadientsAreTougherThanABlackHole.

Ah, MIstborn and black holes are so comparable, now that I understand that a Mistborn is equivelent in power to the most extreme thing in the known Universe I'm going to change my opinions.

ok, so One, Mistbron have not shown even a hint of doing something with Dur+Pewter that hasn't been done with plate, not even a hint.

Second off no atttempt was made by Brandon to balance the magic systems so going for a storytelling argument isn't enough.

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Or maybe that they are all more mortal as a concept of the descriptions of their powers, but most of the characters have unending plot armor for what SHOULD kill a person who normally would have killed them with their powers? I can think of a number of times that happened.

It wouldn't make logical sense for them to fear the fuzed at all if they were all as nigh indestructible as you claim. They might as well all march and take back the Alethic capital in force at this point, if you can't kill them by anything but the supernatural means of smashing their helmet and crashing their skulls. That makes no story sense though, so I assume they aren't nearly so powerful, which I think is the reasonable thing we should do.

It feels like Kaladin on his own should be enough to hold off the desolations, Yes.

Do I think that that is just due to plot armor? Only a little, the times a Radiant is in "danger" are the exception, not the norm.

7 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

No, they have true flight at this point. Read my last reply to @Frustration for my rational. By the time such a fight like this is likely to happen for me, I would also imagine these mistborns would be practiced in the ways of Vin, the legend. And probably by a newer infusion of pure mistborn lines, if I had to guess.

They would have the same flight that you could call any jet aircraft from having, not relying on the ground at all.

Anchors have to touch the ground, that's how it works,

and on the note of having more Lerasium Mistborn, only ten/eleven have ever existed.

Bejarden · March 24, 2021

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Second off no atttempt was made by Brandon to balance the magic systems so going for a storytelling argument isn't enough.

Yes I’m pretty sure Odium says that Surgebinding will s the strongest

he goes on about “the strength of the surges” and he seemed pretty confident that with Radiants as ground troops he could take over the Cosmere

Frustration · March 24, 2021

48 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Mistborn have a ridiculous amount of skill and with practice can do some truly remarkable things. But they'd have a hard time fighting an unenhanced human with Dead Plate and a Dead Blade and no healing factor and no Surges. I would expect them to eventually win that fight but I don't think it'd be a walk in the park. If I'm the Mistborn I'm not trying to go head up with a 4th Ideal Radiant for love or money. Reason why? Because even if I could win I could not expect to not take damage. I'd be lucky if my opponent broke my arm or leg or something. I could heal from that though it'd take awhile (less time burning pewter but it's not like I'm fighting again tomorrow) . Nothing but a Radiant healer is going to be able to heal a Shardblade deadened limb.

burning aluminum might do it, but that isn't a useful thing to try mid battle.

Gisaku75 · March 24, 2021

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@AirsickAviar

I'm going to have to disagree about how powerful you believe that duraluminum is. It's a game changer but it's nowhere near a 3000x force multiplier. 10x? Sure. Maybe even 20x. I could see that. But ascribing that sort of power to them would mean that Vin could drink a vial, go up to a Thunderclast or Chasmfiend and punch a hole right through them without any ill effects.

In fact, it could easily do it with duralumin.
The power of a blow is given by 3 basic factors, the weight of the attacker, the speed of execution and the resistance of the attacker. pewter does not increase weight but increases the speed of execution and resistance of the Pewterman. Vin, from what I have found is 5'4 '' tall and weighs 110 lbs. In the third book just by flaring the pewter, kills a 12 foot Koloss, basically the size of a rhino or elephant, with a single kick to the temple, and without suffering repercussions. With 10 or twenty times that power Vin could leap off the ground at the speed of a bullet, smash a Chamsfiend's head, and land unscathed as her body would become harder than steel.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Gisaku75

therunner · March 24, 2021

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

burning aluminum might do it, but that isn't a useful thing to try mid battle.

I think they would have to burn aluminum when they are being cut to prevent it (if that is possible) but after being cut aluminum would not help them. Burning f-aluminum might do the trick though (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7836), but sincee the damage is also in Spiritual realm, maybe not.

Bejarden · March 24, 2021

5 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

Vin, from what I have found is 5'4 '' tall and weighs 110 lbs. In the third book just by flaring the pewter, kills a 12 foot Koloss, basically the size of a rhino or elephant, with a single kick to the temple, and without suffering repercussions. With 10 or twenty times that power Vin could leap off the ground at the speed of a bullet, smash a Chamsfiend's head, and land unscathed as her body would become harder than steel.

Vin is a weird case her Pewter always made no sense for her size

It was a blow to the head that’s why the Kolos dies it woudnt kill a rhino and exapecial not an elephant

We see one Duralumin pewter I think it shatters someone skull that’s all it also doesn’t leave Vin unharmed when she does

A chasmfeind is also practically a rock there is no way Vin would break that when Shardbeareds have a hard time with these things

Frustration · March 24, 2021

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think they would have to burn aluminum when they are being cut to prevent it (if that is possible) but after being cut aluminum would not help them. Burning f-aluminum might do the trick though (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7836), but sincee the damage is also in Spiritual realm, maybe not.

burning aluminum would heal shade whithering, so it's possible, but a moot point as if a Mistborn ever did that in battle they would get killed.

therunner · March 24, 2021

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

burning aluminum would heal shade whithering, so it's possible, but a moot point as if a Mistborn ever did that in battle they would get killed.

True, but withering is also described in the WoB as something taking over your soul, which is quite different from having part of your soul separated. I read A-Aluminum as removing foreign investiture from all three aspects physical/cognitive/spiritual, but since shardblade severs not includes additional things into these aspects I think aluminum would not be sufficient to heal it. However burning at time of hit might do the trick for preventation (but good luck timing that right).

Gisaku75 · March 24, 2021

19 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Vin is a weird case her Pewter always made no sense for her size

It was a blow to the head that’s why the Kolos dies it woudnt kill a rhino and exapecial not an elephant

We see one Duralumin pewter I think it shatters someone skull that’s all it also doesn’t leave Vin unharmed when she does

A chasmfeind is also practically a rock there is no way Vin would break that when Shardbeareds have a hard time with these things

No Vin is slightly stronger than normal. in fact when the pewterman blocks her she is unable to free herself, because she is too thin in constitution to compensate with Allomancy. With duralumin, she breaks free easily and blows his head off without being affected in the least. A 12 feet Koloss is exactly the same size as a rhino and therefore by flaring pewter it can be killed easily with a hit in the head. a Chamsfire is about twice the height and length of an elephant and four times the size of a rhino. So only by ten times the power of the blow the Chamfiend would have no hope. in both of the scenes I mentioned, I just reread them, Vin doesn't suffer any backlash from her attacks, simply in the first case she has to recover from the fact that the Pewterman was strangling her.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Gisaku75

Frustration · March 24, 2021

1 minute ago, Gisaku75 said:

No Vin is slightly stronger than normal. in fact when the pewterman blocks her she is unable to free herself, because she is too thin in constitution to compensate with Allomancy. With duralumin, she breaks free easily and blows his head off without being affected in the least. A 12 meter Koloss is exactly the same size as a rhino and therefore by flaring pewter it can be killed easily with a hit in the head. a Chamsfire is about twice the height and length of an elephant and four times the size of a rhino. So only by ten times the power of the blow the Chamfiend would have no hope. in both of the scenes I mentioned, I just reread them, Vin doesn't suffer any backlash from her attacks, simply in the first case she has to recover from the fact that the Pewterman was strangling her.

It's twelve feet not meters, and Chasmfiends are covered in armor.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Frustration

Bigmikey357 · March 24, 2021

17 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

In fact, it could easily do it with duralumin.
The power of a blow is given by 3 basic factors, the weight of the attacker, the speed of execution and the resistance of the attacker. pewter does not increase weight but increases the speed of execution and resistance of the Pewterman. Vin, from what I have found is 5'4 '' tall and weighs 110 lbs. In the third book just by flaring the pewter, kills a 12 foot Koloss, basically the size of a rhino or elephant, with a single kick to the temple, and without suffering repercussions. With 10 or twenty times that power Vin could leap off the ground at the speed of a bullet, smash a Chamsfiend's head, and land unscathed as her body would become harder than steel.

1. She may have killed the thing but she didn't punt its head 30 yards or something. The kick basically broke its neck. No matter how imposing, Koloss are still only flesh and blood.

2. A Thunderclast is solid stone. Even with Pewter and Duraluminum her leg would break way before any harm would come to it.

3. Not even a Radiant with Plate is trying to go for punching matches with one of those. That's what the Shardblades are for.

4. Decapitation of a Thunderclast wouldn't kill it. It's spirit animated stone, no brain stem or spinal chord to speak of. There are only 2 ways to kill one. Chop it into little, unthreatening pieces or dismiss the animating spirit.

5. Chasmfiends are way more than 4 times as large as an elephant on average.

6. Confidence is one thing, but you seem to be trying to get Vin killed if you really think she could solo a Chasmfiend. I guess if you think that, a Radiant would be no problem huh.

Gisaku75 · March 24, 2021

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

It's twelve feet not meters

i corrected. I corrected. However, a rhino is just over 12 feet long and an elephant is just under 12 feet tall. A Chamsfiend is 20 feet tall and twice as long.

Frustration · March 24, 2021

1 minute ago, Gisaku75 said:

i corrected. I corrected. However, a rhino is just over 12 feet long and an elephant is just under 12 feet tall. A Chamsfiend is 20 feet tall and twice as long.

closer to sixty feet tall

Bejarden · March 24, 2021

12 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

With duralumin, she breaks free easily and blows his head off without being affected in the least

She falls unconscious immediately afterwards

she can try it on a radient but it might crack the plate and her arm would be broken leaving her wide open to a counter attack

There is also a huge difference between flesh and blood Kolos and a 60 foot peice of pure rock there is no way Vin is defeating a Chasmfeind

Frustration · March 24, 2021

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She falls unconscious immediately afterwards

she can try it on a radient but it might crack the plate and her arm would be broken leaving her wide open to a counter attack

There is also a huge difference between flesh and blood Kolos and a 60 foot peice of pure rock there is no way Vin is defeating a Chasmfeind

your thinking thunderclast, there Chasmfiends are carapice and flesh.

therunner · March 24, 2021

17 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

No Vin is slightly stronger than normal. in fact when the pewterman blocks her she is unable to free herself, because she is too thin in constitution to compensate with Allomancy. With duralumin, she breaks free easily and blows his head off without being affected in the least. A 12 feet Koloss is exactly the same size as a rhino and therefore by flaring pewter it can be killed easily with a hit in the head. a Chamsfire is about twice the height and length of an elephant and four times the size of a rhino. So only by ten times the power of the blow the Chamfiend would have no hope. in both of the scenes I mentioned, I just reread them, Vin doesn't suffer any backlash from her attacks, simply in the first case she has to recover from the fact that the Pewterman was strangling her.

The way pewter works for durability is weird, on one hand she can kick Koloss without breaking a leg and shatter Thugs head with a headbutt, and yet she can still get stabbed easily by glass knives.And while she does not seem to suffer ill-effects (outside of being choked out) directly, she loses pewter and is suffering from effects similar to fatigue after pewter drag.

And chasmfiend is solid stone, we never see Mistborn do anything close to launching themselves straight through stone walls. Since pewter enhances strength, speed and poise primarily I think any increase in durability is a secondary effect that does not necessarily scales the same way.

EDIT: @Bejardin1250

Quote

" She falls unconscious immediately afterwards "

Seemingly that was primarily because the Thug was choking her for a while, she was close to losing consciousness even before burning duralumin and smashing his head.

Edited March 24, 2021 by therunner
response to Bejardin

Gisaku75 · March 24, 2021

1 minute ago, Bigmikey357 said:

1. She may have killed the thing but she didn't punt its head 30 yards or something. The kick basically broke its neck. No matter how imposing, Koloss are still only flesh and blood.

2. A Thunderclast is solid stone. Even with Pewter and Duraluminum her leg would break way before any harm would come to it.

3. Not even a Radiant with Plate is trying to go for punching matches with one of those. That's what the Shardblades are for.

4. Decapitation of a Thunderclast wouldn't kill it. It's spirit animated stone, no brain stem or spinal chord to speak of. There are only 2 ways to kill one. Chop it into little, unthreatening pieces or dismiss the animating spirit.

5. Chasmfiends are way more than 4 times as large as an elephant on average.

6. Confidence is one thing, but you seem to be trying to get Vin killed if you really think she could solo a Chasmfiend. I guess if you think that, a Radiant would be no problem huh.

1 No in the book says that the blow broke his skull. practically it is the shot of a cannon.the koloss head weighs more than Vin so it was pierced and not blown off.

2 at most would bounce back because his bones at that moment are harder than steel. If you hit a wall with a steel club, the wall may not be damaged and neither is the club.

3 the point is that with duralumin the blow of a mistborn is much more powerful than a plate.

4 ok

5 no the proportions are exactly those. savanna elephant 10.4 feet tall by 21 feet long. Camsfiend, coppermind source, 20 by 40 feet.

6 In fact, Kaladin just has to stick a shardblade down his throat to kill him. With duralumin Vin is practically a 110 lbs cannonball as you said a Chamsfiend is just muscles and carapace.

Frustration · March 24, 2021

1 minute ago, Gisaku75 said:

1 No in the book says that the blow broke his skull. practically it is the shot of a cannon.the koloss head weighs more than Vin so it was pierced and not blown off.

2 at most would bounce back because his bones at that moment are harder than steel. If you hit a wall with a steel club, the wall may not be damaged and neither is the club.

3 the point is that with duralumin the blow of a mistborn is much more powerful than a plate.

4 ok

5 no the proportions are exactly those. savanna elephant 10.4 feet tall by 21 feet long. Camsfiend, coppermind source, 20 by 40 feet.

6 In fact, Kaladin just has to stick a shardblade down his throat to kill him. With duralumin Vin is practically a 110 lbs cannonball as you said a Chamsfiend is just muscles and carapace.

According to Shallan a Chasmfiend is shorter than the fourth floor of Urithiru, each floor if fifteen feet, and Shallan has only seen one Chasmfiend, they can get to around sixty feet tall.

Bigmikey357 · March 24, 2021

@Gisaku75

fine, broke neck or broken skull, the point is the head is still attached. A cannonball would leave no skull at all, the fragments could possibly be found dozens of feet away.

Find a steel bat and hit a mountain with it. The steel will dent and break before the mountain does.

I disagree that a duraluminum fueled pewter punch is in any way stronger than a plate assisted punch from a Radiant. To say they are about the same is generous in my opinion. The couple of times we've seen of the pewter duraluminum combo does not support the assertion. Powerful but not one punch obliterates the countryside. Maybe a Fullborn or Pewter compounder could generate the type of force you seem to imply but not a Mistborn.

@Frustration already referenced the size differential between actual size and what you think the size of a Chasmfiend is.

Chasmfiends are flesh and blood but they are also oh, I don't know, maybe 10 or twenty times the weight of a semi truck. That carapace takes several people hours and large hammers to Crack if one doesn't have Shardblade handy. Again I must reiterate, don't send Vin up against that with the expectation that she could slay it solo.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

Ok, I'm on the phone, so I put this together on a bunch of free time while out and about, sorry about formatting and not being able to quote. This is a first response to @therunner, and will not have time to do much of a proper response to many of these other ones for maybe a day or so. I'm working, and this formatting is a bit random point for random point as they came out, but it should still be legible.

Are you seriously using writer question answers for what ifs for straight kal vs Vin metrics, probably assuming fighting in the same styles and patter as a random encounter, none of this knowledge on who and preparation, weaponry, etc? And she wasn't even used to fighting so much a master spearman even, with most masters coming with her with knives or sword, at least those who moved with enhanced speed, and he would outrange her in ways she definitely wouldn't expect? But even he says at that point without those odd, she wins in the back alley random encounter with both not having all their war weaponry profiles. I expect this shows more of the grit of her overall talents here, and less all the tools, it is listed as a fight, and not her just cutting his windpipe at night after all. It doesn't matter if this is 'before plate', this is not at all the situations referred to, and doesn't answer a better set of questions.

Oh, and your are not charitable with 'since you included keslier a godlike person, so that all mborns are him so this that means everyone is as good as kaladin'. No, I didn't use Kelsier, lol, I used Wax, Vin, and Zane, and Wax was not even a Mistborn, but a lesser that I used. Furthermore that wasn't about 'overall goodness of all mistborns are going to be l33t overall top Mistborn fighters in all of these things', it was specifically used to make a point about how it seems every other one is pulling off some sort of extreme agility feat every other day. It is that trait they tend to share so highly among just about any mb I can think of. Thank you for pulling yet another example out in the survivor, because on steel he was one with balance in them also in another level. And we don't know enough about the other two who had Wax's combo, the main sentences in question seemed to be mainly about their rarity, not their skills. When do much of the samples tend to aggregate, from most people of the airborne metalborne skillet, even without pewter, that does tend to reinforce my thoughts that I do think they are in another level of agility, by the time they start to pass Mistborn training, because do much of it demands it for them to survive and not fall, and hone the heck out of that trait. And you should keep in mind, that I even said I think edgedancers might be the order that is finally more agile in that category, but also how I think the metalborne can still manipulate their toolset for yet another critical advantage despite that loss. Oh, while I'm about it I feel I should point out there is a 5th metal I've been overlooking from the 2nd era that would also aid their overall agility profile. Speed bubbles, like Wayne uses them to absolutely flabbergast dozens of enemies trying to hit him. Imagine him using them while also flying about at high speeds. It would be like the pursuer, but only slightly less effective. Better even, since on top of being able to choose to come in flying when you leave a bubble towards another better angle, they can keep repeating the process easily, not having just 4 shots and then recharge which stressed even Kaladin. Yoy wouldn't be able to get too close as it would bring them in, so you launch your attack run, but at the same time with flight and all the others, so much better. But with this agility hack, you could always start your attack sweep from the worst angles for the radiant, and only maybe a few orders woul have a good shot of containing the mistborn in range of them to not bubble and appear at their back again. And I still don't want to even bother with the hack that is Atium.

You are right, vs some orders they might have completely changed disadvantages, but vs most, played well, they should still have a toolset to gain an edge. What makes the Mistborn great, is that they have far more than just two surges and an effect to help them, which makes them able to switch things up, and not fail when relying on a different strategy.

And what do you mean that Renarin as a good argument to counter Atium, even if it is true that he could, which I think he might? No. Atium would need that one person fighting them without even being a normal radiant, but also part voidbinder to win that fight? Don't you understand how silly that is? You might as well bring other partial mistborns into this then. Or the mists, you know, someone like Rashek, but maybe not even near his level, not even a full feurochemy, but gold, plus Mistborn? Or steel? I don't think you want to go down this road of 'but if we had a full radiant + extra on the side, we could beat atium', as by those same rules, the floodgates really open for the Mistborn victory. You don't even need fullborn, just a single Mistborn with the ferring of steel would give the power to give entire teams of radiants a very bad day. A bit like how Renarin is only partially one of the other type of magic user too. Also, if you need the one person in the entire world to be nearby for you to win, and you are planning battles and random encounters with an enemy? You've already lost most of the fights that would need to come in anyway. That is literally a one man crutch supposed to prove 10 entire orders are better man on man? If anything I'm your entire premise shows that a radiant could not beat a fully prepped mborn with Atium, without help.

Not sure on the numbers of 20-30x strength only from dura comes in (though even with that number, you still admit it is enough, but it would limit my secondary effects of forcing off the shield). I'd like to see the math on that, was it stated somewhere a cap on dura? Because you then make it so that hours of amplification can only go 10x the normal amount of boost, there is something wrong there, very wrong. Can we accept that a very basic thing, punching full force can probably be done dozens of times with flaired pewter with a LOT left to spare? We've seen something similar before. So pretend hits at 100 pounds of strength, Vin flairs, hits a wall that needs 36000 pounds of pressure to break, and does it with 15 flaired punches (100x3x15 is 35k), each with the strength of three of her, and still has an hour of strength left. A bit would have been drained, but those where still basic punches, not anywhere near described as being able to burn it like that, full force be darned. Are you now saying, if she burned it with duralumin on another pillar of the same wall, she couldn't get it with a single punch, even though it would have went through the entire stockpile of pewter? It's explicitly mentioned to be 'ALL the potential of X into one'. The math on that would be 30x (your number), times 100, which would be about 6k short of breaking the pillar, which would be easy enough without the super boost. Something doesn't make sense. She should have far more than that, hours of small 2x to 3x work into one shot. Maybe it was math for outright lifting strength, if one could lift this much then, then this much there, compared to end strike power magnification, which to to the nature of how this foeced is derived, should multiply a little faster, with both figures having slightly different calculations. Where are these calculations you mentioned? I'd be very much interested to see them, and try and figure where they or me went wrong, because something implicit in the wording and implication of all of it being used at once almost always lands higher than that.

I gave both the ability to know who the other is, with the assumption that this will be in some later war where both encounter each other, and it won't take long for either to figure out the others. I just think this knowledge helps the far more flexible fighter more often. Aka, the mistborn who has 16+ things they can do, not counting weapons and the like. Many of the things like speed bubbles, and superior agility is something that will be really hard to prep for, even if they wanted to. But fighting shardbearers, and knowing their small sets of power combos? It is a tall order, but the things you would be preparing for would be of a far more straightforward level.

And no, with plate, they might be comparably fast, but even with the radiant trying not to get hit, the very agile Mistborn, if a veteran with using his various power sets, should still be able to land that hit more often than not. But note, even this I say many will still fail, and probably die. Just that it is more often than not.

Why in the world do you assume they are less agile only because somehow the Mistborn wear less? The consistency of the showings between the better marks from both, while neither was wearing much difference. The tassels if the mistcloak aren't making it less than the bulkiness of a cloak, and it wasn't that Kaladin or Shall in were all wearing a bunch of fancy suits of armor.

I'm gonna go check all of the horseshoe chapters in book later. You are probably right, but it was never how I pictured it mentally, surprising. It still won't win these fights though. It should still push with enough force for them to be airborne, then push an attack and switch out of range, before resorting to other things as mentioned and going for a rather aggressive airborne attack. And you can still push off of liquids, by the same manner you can die by hitting the water hard enough. It will take more effort, but with a constant pulling back in that windmill, a more powerful Mistborn should at least still be able to stay aloft even with doing it over a more liquid ground. I do think this might also have the effect of making them slower, but I'm not sure. I'll look into that later.

I'm also going to do the math on the speed trips later, but I did say in this I was never fully sure anyway. I did say I was making assumptions on map size, mostly on travel time with the assumption due to the last empire being kind of world spanning to me, it would also have been farther given mid to top right. Still, in the combat field, neither of these high ends are likely to be seen by either. But it was worth pointing out, and thanks for going into some of the math.

I like your idea about the nets, coupled with other abilities, and gunpowder based weapons to assist in delivering them, and the extra agility and positioning hacks? Yeah, I think that could really work well. Even to a degree where simply sword slashes won't completely leave you unhindered in a quick enough time.

Why do you think making coins slippery, which they don't even touch, would be a problem? Even if they touched the ones in their pouch, somehow, which would be doubtful unless they already won, that would still only hinder the Mistborn until such a time that they realized that, and went to mental metal control methods to move the coins where they wanted.

Also, why do you think suddenly having them go anchor hunting to begin with is such a big win for them? I don't think you understand this isn't something new to the mistborn knowledge, many have tried, very few have succeeded. Not even Vin managed to use coin depravity strategies on any of the two Mistborn she tried them on successfully, and she was metalborne and could push them away easier than any radiant. Even if they couldn't fly outright with horseshoe method, even an attack against the armor of the radiant without dura, would give a temporary anchor to push on, potentially losing balance on the radiant, and also pushing the Mistborn to where it is undoubted they could end up using their coins. Furthermore, this goes right into the mentality of why the horseshoe strategy isn't usually seen in combat. But it is no more complex than half of the combat pull push combos they do all the time. I highly doubt any of the radiants will be as good at winning by anchor as the Mistborn will be at not only being fine, even if they lose anchor support for a moment (so many times they do), as the Mistborn is at punishing them for that assumption. And it isn't even as if it does sink (which not many order can even do), that a Mistborn couldn't simply pull it back out on the way out, and when they see what is happening, none others should be lost nearly as easily.

Traveling with the hammer, and flying about would not slow them down as much as you think, as their agility is often based on what they anchoring towards and against, and they are already the 'heavy' factor in that equation. This will not mess up their flight like it would nearly to any degree as it would if they where actively in the way of outright flying. The anchor will push against the both just the same. It's interesting though that was an actual oversight I didn't consider, but it turns out that it is only less of a factor in 'flight' and agility when being used by someone who uses their combined weight as the heavy pull and push anyway. Furthermore, when in actually combat, they then even have that hammer as an own anchor if they ever needed corrections, but they probably would rather keep it in most situations and use that mainly in a place where they could keep it in line with their own weight until needed.

Also, I get the idea even if a bunch more radiants had plate, they still could not just make a run for an enemy stronghold, because it doesn't make narrative sense, and the powers of the enemy, while different, and not with plate, have some very powerful tools. They did have a lot more users of plate in the past, and barely won many desolations.

Frustration · March 24, 2021

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

Are you seriously using writer question answers for what ifs for straight kal vs Vin metrics, probably assuming fighting in the same styles and patter as a random encounter, none of this knowledge on who and preparation, weaponry, etc? And she wasn't even used to fighting so much a master spearman even, with most masters coming with her with knives or sword, at least those who moved with enhanced speed, and he would outrange her in ways she definitely wouldn't expect? But even he says at that point without those odd, she wins in the back alley random encounter with both not having all their war weaponry profiles. I expect this shows more of the grit of her overall talents here, and less all the tools, it is listed as a fight, and not her just cutting his windpipe at night after all. It doesn't matter if this is 'before plate', this is not at all the situations referred to, and doesn't answer a better set of questions.

Brandon often in these kinds of things says that (Insert Mistborn here) stabs them in their sleep, that's not a fight, but Brandon counts it.

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

And what do you mean that Renarin as a good argument to counter Atium, even if it is true that he could, which I think he might? No. Atium would need that one person fighting them without even being a normal radiant, but also part voidbinder to win that fight? Don't you understand how silly that is? You might as well bring other partial mistborns into this then. Or the mists, you know, someone like Rashek, but maybe not even near his level, not even a full feurochemy, but gold, plus Mistborn? Or steel? I don't think you want to go down this road of 'but if we had a full radiant + extra on the side, we could beat atium', as by those same rules, the floodgates really open for the Mistborn victory. You don't even need fullborn, just a single Mistborn with the ferring of steel would give the power to give entire teams of radiants a very bad day. A bit like how Renarin is only partially one of the other type of magic user too. Also, if you need the one person in the entire world to be nearby for you to win, and you are planning battles and random encounters with an enemy? You've already lost most of the fights that would need to come in anyway. That is literally a one man crutch supposed to prove 10 entire orders are better man on man? If anything I'm your entire premise shows that a radiant could not beat a fully prepped mborn with Atium, without help.

1. Renarin is only the first, Rlain is another corrupted Truthwatcher and we know there will be more.

2. We have already gone over Twinborn, Halfborn, even Fullborn in the course of this topic, and if you want to go full on Mists and bring shards into this, just know that Odium on his own is capable of killing Harmony.

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

Not sure on the numbers of 20-30x strength only from dura comes in (though even with that number, you still admit it is enough, but it would limit my secondary effects of forcing off the shield). I'd like to see the math on that, was it stated somewhere a cap on dura? Because you then make it so that hours of amplification can only go 10x the normal amount of boost, there is something wrong there, very wrong. Can we accept that a very basic thing, punching full force can probably be done dozens of times with flaired pewter with a LOT left to spare? We've seen something similar before. So pretend hits at 100 pounds of strength, Vin flairs, hits a wall that needs 36000 pounds of pressure to break, and does it with 15 flaired punches (100x3x15 is 35k), each with the strength of three of her, and still has an hour of strength left. A bit would have been drained, but those where still basic punches, not anywhere near described as being able to burn it like that, full force be darned. Are you now saying, if she burned it with duralumin on another pillar of the same wall, she couldn't get it with a single punch, even though it would have went through the entire stockpile of pewter? It's explicitly mentioned to be 'ALL the potential of X into one'. The math on that would be 30x (your number), times 100, which would be about 6k short of breaking the pillar, which would be easy enough without the super boost. Something doesn't make sense. She should have far more than that, hours of small 2x to 3x work into one shot. Maybe it was math for outright lifting strength, if one could lift this much then, then this much there, compared to end strike power magnification, which to to the nature of how this foeced is derived, should multiply a little faster, with both figures having slightly different calculations. Where are these calculations you mentioned? I'd be very much interested to see them, and try and figure where they or me went wrong, because something implicit in the wording and implication of all of it being used at once almost always lands higher than that.

If Duralumin gave as much a boost as you claim Vin could have escaped from her prision in HoA by burning duralumin, steel and pewter.

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

I gave both the ability to know who the other is, with the assumption that this will be in some later war where both encounter each other, and it won't take long for either to figure out the others. I just think this knowledge helps the far more flexible fighter more often. Aka, the mistborn who has 16+ things they can do, not counting weapons and the like. Many of the things like speed bubbles, and superior agility is something that will be really hard to prep for, even if they wanted to. But fighting shardbearers, and knowing their small sets of power combos? It is a tall order, but the things you would be preparing for would be of a far more straightforward level.

People keep saying Mistborn are more versitile, so let's do a comparison, what can you steelpush? Metal, that's it.

What can you use Gravitation on? Just about anything.

and on top of that 16 things you can do, but half of them might as well be useless, good luck killing a Radiant with copper, or gold for that matter.

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

Why in the world do you assume they are less agile only because somehow the Mistborn wear less? The consistency of the showings between the better marks from both, while neither was wearing much difference. The tassels if the mistcloak aren't making it less than the bulkiness of a cloak, and it wasn't that Kaladin or Shall in were all wearing a bunch of fancy suits of armor.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

Also, I get the idea even if a bunch more radiants had plate, they still could not just make a run for an enemy stronghold, because it doesn't make narrative sense, and the powers of the enemy, while different, and not with plate, have some very powerful tools. They did have a lot more users of plate in the past, and barely won many desolations.

They survived two desolations with barely a year break towards the end, earlier desolations did not have Radiants and those were far more destructive.

therunner · March 24, 2021

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Are you seriously using writer question answers for what ifs for straight kal vs Vin metrics, probably assuming fighting in the same styles and patter as a random encounter, none of this knowledge on who and preparation, weaponry, etc? And she wasn't even used to fighting so much a master spearman even, with most masters coming with her with knives or sword, at least those who moved with enhanced speed, and he would outrange her in ways she definitely wouldn't expect? But even he says at that point without those odd, she wins in the back alley random encounter with both not having all their war weaponry profiles. I expect this shows more of the grit of her overall talents here, and less all the tools, it is listed as a fight, and not her just cutting his windpipe at night after all. It doesn't matter if this is 'before plate', this is not at all the situations referred to, and doesn't answer a better set of questions.

Yes I do. He is in the end the ultimate authority, per his statement on battlefield Kaladin wins, encounter not on battlefield, Vin wins. And that is for 3rd oath. I would say it does show something, you are of course free to disagree, but Radiants do have advantage in most regards, espacially on 4th oath.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Oh, and your are not charitable with 'since you included keslier a godlike person, so that all mborns are him so this that means everyone is as good as kaladin'. No, I didn't use Kelsier, lol, I used Wax, Vin, and Zane, and Wax was not even a Mistborn, but a lesser that I used. Furthermore that wasn't about 'overall goodness of all mistborns are going to be l33t overall top Mistborn fighters in all of these things', it was specifically used to make a point about how it seems every other one is pulling off some sort of extreme agility feat every other day. It is that trait they tend to share so highly among just about any mb I can think of. Thank you for pulling yet another example out in the survivor, because on steel he was one with balance in them also in another level. And we don't know enough about the other two who had Wax's combo, the main sentences in question seemed to be mainly about their rarity, not their skills. When do much of the samples tend to aggregate, from most people of the airborne metalborne skillet, even without pewter, that does tend to reinforce my thoughts that I do think they are in another level of agility, by the time they start to pass Mistborn training, because do much of it demands it for them to survive and not fall, and hone the heck out of that trait. And you should keep in mind, that I even said I think edgedancers might be the order that is finally more agile in that category, but also how I think the metalborne can still manipulate their toolset for yet another critical advantage despite that loss. Oh, while I'm about it I feel I should point out there is a 5th metal I've been overlooking from the 2nd era that would also aid their overall agility profile. Speed bubbles, like Wayne uses them to absolutely flabbergast dozens of enemies trying to hit him. Imagine him using them while also flying about at high speeds. It would be like the pursuer, but only slightly less effective. Better even, since on top of being able to choose to come in flying when you leave a bubble towards another better angle, they can keep repeating the process easily, not having just 4 shots and then recharge which stressed even Kaladin. Yoy wouldn't be able to get too close as it would bring them in, so you launch your attack run, but at the same time with flight and all the others, so much better. But with this agility hack, you could always start your attack sweep from the worst angles for the radiant, and only maybe a few orders woul have a good shot of containing the mistborn in range of them to not bubble and appear at their back again. And I still don't want to even bother with the hack that is Atium.

True you did not include Kelsier, only Vin and Zane (my points on them being outliers stand). I included him because he is considered on par and potentially better when it comes to steel/iron and yet he does not even approach feats you mention for Mistborn (true flight without ground support). You used them to support agility/grace of mistborn in general, I countered for why I think these are outliers. Speed bubbles are inded a useful tool to quickly reposition in battle, but are only useful at a distance, otherwise your oponent is in bubble with you. In contrast pursuer could shift into his form and use it to escape close quarters, something speed bubble would not allow, so they are considerably less effective, or more specifically a different tool altogether.

With speed bubbles you can reposition from a distance of about 1 meter which should be enough to allow better striking angles, simplifying landing a good hit on Radiant. Of course to land a disabling hit you would need to use duralumin+pewter or duralumin+steel temporarily negating any advantage unless the strikes disables opponent. And Radiant can also move and does not need to stand around waiting to be hit.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

And what do you mean that Renarin as a good argument to counter Atium, even if it is true that he could, which I think he might? No. Atium would need that one person fighting them without even being a normal radiant, but also part voidbinder to win that fight? Don't you understand how silly that is? You might as well bring other partial mistborns into this then. Or the mists, you know, someone like Rashek, but maybe not even near his level, not even a full feurochemy, but gold, plus Mistborn? Or steel? I don't think you want to go down this road of 'but if we had a full radiant + extra on the side, we could beat atium', as by those same rules, the floodgates really open for the Mistborn victory. You don't even need fullborn, just a single Mistborn with the ferring of steel would give the power to give entire teams of radiants a very bad day. A bit like how Renarin is only partially one of the other type of magic user too. Also, if you need the one person in the entire world to be nearby for you to win, and you are planning battles and random encounters with an enemy? You've already lost most of the fights that would need to come in anyway. That is literally a one man crutch supposed to prove 10 entire orders are better man on man? If anything I'm your entire premise shows that a radiant could not beat a fully prepped mborn with Atium, without help.

Well Renarin blocks futuresight of a Shard, I think little atium is of no consequence to him. I do not see why that is silly, he bonded a spren albeit altered one, others started doing the same so he is not unique and with time there will surely be more than the 2 right now. He is not full Radiant + extra, he is something different, perhaps analogous to Twinborn. Obviously Fullborn would win, no one disputes that, I also stated in my previous posts that Mistborn with f-steel would have better chance against 4th oath Radiant, so I agree with you there. It was example meant to highlight that some particular orders (corrupted Truthwatchers) can potentially counter the greatest tool in Mistborn arsenal.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Not sure on the numbers of 20-30x strength only from dura comes in (though even with that number, you still admit it is enough, but it would limit my secondary effects of forcing off the shield). I'd like to see the math on that, was it stated somewhere a cap on dura? Because you then make it so that hours of amplification can only go 10x the normal amount of boost, there is something wrong there, very wrong. Can we accept that a very basic thing, punching full force can probably be done dozens of times with flaired pewter with a LOT left to spare? We've seen something similar before. So pretend hits at 100 pounds of strength, Vin flairs, hits a wall that needs 36000 pounds of pressure to break, and does it with 15 flaired punches (100x3x15 is 35k), each with the strength of three of her, and still has an hour of strength left. A bit would have been drained, but those where still basic punches, not anywhere near described as being able to burn it like that, full force be darned. Are you now saying, if she burned it with duralumin on another pillar of the same wall, she couldn't get it with a single punch, even though it would have went through the entire stockpile of pewter? It's explicitly mentioned to be 'ALL the potential of X into one'. The math on that would be 30x (your number), times 100, which would be about 6k short of breaking the pillar, which would be easy enough without the super boost. Something doesn't make sense. She should have far more than that, hours of small 2x to 3x work into one shot. Maybe it was math for outright lifting strength, if one could lift this much then, then this much there, compared to end strike power magnification, which to to the nature of how this foeced is derived, should multiply a little faster, with both figures having slightly different calculations. Where are these calculations you mentioned? I'd be very much interested to see them, and try and figure where they or me went wrong, because something implicit in the wording and implication of all of it being used at once almost always lands higher than that.

First 100*3*15 is 4500, not 35k, so she would need to hit that wall ~120 times, not 15 times. Second applying 15 punches consecutively would not be enough to break the wall you need to apply the pressure at once (of course weakening the structural integrity would work, but that would be entirely different calculation).

I do agree that something does not make sense with duralumin, and thinking about it more I do think 20-30 multiplier seems too low. However, the feats suggest that it does not work like straightforward compression (instead of 1 hour at 2x strength get 1 second at 7200x strength) otherwise her hits with duralumin would do far more damage than shown (both in headbutting and in Koloss kicking). I would assume that like with feruchemy there is some inefficiency that causes loss, with the inefficiency greater the more you try to compress it. Otherwise you could have a 1kg of pewter implanted, then burn duralumin and probably shatter the planet, or at least crust and I do not think that is where Mistborn are going.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

I gave both the ability to know who the other is, with the assumption that this will be in some later war where both encounter each other, and it won't take long for either to figure out the others. I just think this knowledge helps the far more flexible fighter more often. Aka, the mistborn who has 16+ things they can do, not counting weapons and the like. Many of the things like speed bubbles, and superior agility is something that will be really hard to prep for, even if they wanted to. But fighting shardbearers, and knowing their small sets of power combos? It is a tall order, but the things you would be preparing for would be of a far more straightforward level.

Everything you were writing down implied that Mistborn prepared to fight Radiant, and Radiant did nothing at all to prepare the same. While Mistborn have 16 powers,

5 are useless in fight - Gold, Zinc, Brass, Aluminum, Cadmium..since shardplate resists external investiture rioting/soothing wont work, knowing your past in the middle of battle is not particularly useful, aluminum would just do nothing useful at all, and slowing yourself down in the middle of fight is very dumb idea
2 are situational - Copper, Bronze...useful for either sneak attacks, or locating illusions
2 others would require touch and prolonged contact to do anything - Nicrosil, Chromium
1 just boosts others (duralumin)

You are left with 6 metals, 2 of which just enhance physical capabilities of a person (with Tin being arguably a potential weakness) so nothing Radiants are not used to. So mistborn effctively has only 4 tools, steel/iron (which might as well be one when fighting someone with no metal on them, as godmetal would resist pulls), Electrum and Bendalloy. Duralumin could make pewter dangerous as well, but they would need to get close first. So Radiant needs to limit their mobility near them (to negate Bendalloy) and have a way of shielding themselves from distance to protect from steel pushes (half-shard, or living blade in shape of shield should do nicely). So ultimately I would say that Mistborn are more limited in straight-up fight than Radiants are, altough some orders are of course even worse for attacks (Truthwatchers come to mind, but they still have shards and are harder to kill to boot).

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

And no, with plate, they might be comparably fast, but even with the radiant trying not to get hit, the very agile Mistborn, if a veteran with using his various power sets, should still be able to land that hit more often than not. But note, even this I say many will still fail, and probably die. Just that it is more often than not.

Speed =\= agility, blocking a big hammer does not take much finesse.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Why in the world do you assume they are less agile only because somehow the Mistborn wear less? The consistency of the showings between the better marks from both, while neither was wearing much difference. The tassels if the mistcloak aren't making it less than the bulkiness of a cloak, and it wasn't that Kaladin or Shall in were all wearing a bunch of fancy suits of armor.

Because you know, lugging around something that wears just as much as you and is not particularly aerodynamic will make you less agile. Armor or heavy weaponry will make you less agile, period. And mistborn would need some form of durable weapon to crack/shatter plate.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

I'm gonna go check all of the horseshoe chapters in book later. You are probably right, but it was never how I pictured it mentally, surprising. It still won't win these fights though. It should still push with enough force for them to be airborne, then push an attack and switch out of range, before resorting to other things as mentioned and going for a rather aggressive airborne attack. And you can still push off of liquids, by the same manner you can die by hitting the water hard enough. It will take more effort, but with a constant pulling back in that windmill, a more powerful Mistborn should at least still be able to stay aloft even with doing it over a more liquid ground. I do think this might also have the effect of making them slower, but I'm not sure. I'll look into that later.

Yeah, but they cannot fly and because they require ground most orders have either a way to complicate Mistborns life quite a bit (tension, cohesion, abrasion, soulcasting), or they will have air superiority (gravitation), this covers 8 orders.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

I'm also going to do the math on the speed trips later, but I did say in this I was never fully sure anyway. I did say I was making assumptions on map size, mostly on travel time with the assumption due to the last empire being kind of world spanning to me, it would also have been farther given mid to top right. Still, in the combat field, neither of these high ends are likely to be seen by either. But it was worth pointing out, and thanks for going into some of the math.

True, but your arguments partly relied on superior speed of mistborn, which they do not have. For Kals trip I used coppermind on Roshar + the book (5-6 chapter Oathbringer), for Vin it was map of Final Empire + note on that F city on Coppermind.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Why do you think making coins slippery, which they don't even touch, would be a problem? Even if they touched the ones in their pouch, somehow, which would be doubtful unless they already won, that would still only hinder the Mistborn until such a time that they realized that, and went to mental metal control methods to move the coins where they wanted.

Because Mistborn will rely on firm anchors to move around, if someone with abrasion makes them slippery so that any amount of force that is not directly from the top will make them move, that will make Mistborns life complicated. Abrasion could do this, as it can be used to eliminate friction entirely.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Also, why do you think suddenly having them go anchor hunting to begin with is such a big win for them? I don't think you understand this isn't something new to the mistborn knowledge, many have tried, very few have succeeded. Not even Vin managed to use coin depravity strategies on any of the two Mistborn she tried them on successfully, and she was metalborne and could push them away easier than any radiant. Even if they couldn't fly outright with horseshoe method, even an attack against the armor of the radiant without dura, would give a temporary anchor to push on, potentially losing balance on the radiant, and also pushing the Mistborn to where it is undoubted they could end up using their coins. Furthermore, this goes right into the mentality of why the horseshoe strategy isn't usually seen in combat. But it is no more complex than half of the combat pull push combos they do all the time. I highly doubt any of the radiants will be as good at winning by anchor as the Mistborn will be at not only being fine, even if they lose anchor support for a moment (so many times they do), as the Mistborn is at punishing them for that assumption. And it isn't even as if it does sink (which not many order can even do), that a Mistborn couldn't simply pull it back out on the way out, and when they see what is happening, none others should be lost nearly as easily.

Well you kept talking about how they can fly, I was pushing back on that. They cannot fly outright, and destabilizing anchors would not be winning strategy for Radiant, just a way to complicate Mistborn's life. Lot of Radiant can anchor hunt without moving (tension, cohesion, soulcasting) so they would not give it away making it a surprise for Mistborn. How would attack on armor give them anchor? They could not even push on it at all?

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Traveling with the hammer, and flying about would not slow them down as much as you think, as their agility is often based on what they anchoring towards and against, and they are already the 'heavy' factor in that equation. This will not mess up their flight like it would nearly to any degree as it would if they where actively in the way of outright flying. The anchor will push against the both just the same. It's interesting though that was an actual oversight I didn't consider, but it turns out that it is only less of a factor in 'flight' and agility when being used by someone who uses their combined weight as the heavy pull and push anyway. Furthermore, when in actually combat, they then even have that hammer as an own anchor if they ever needed corrections, but they probably would rather keep it in most situations and use that mainly in a place where they could keep it in line with their own weight until needed.

Well I disagree with you there, especially if we are talking about 6 feet tall 150 kg heavy hammers, it would completely ruin there center of gravity + aerodynamics. They are still moving through air + use proprioception to navigate, shardhammer is neither aerodynamic nor they have proprioception in it. Since the hammer would be heavier than they are they would most likely be able to only either push away from it, or pull to it, without moving the hammer. So if they left it lying around it would be good target for Radiant.

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Also, I get the idea even if a bunch more radiants had plate, they still could not just make a run for an enemy stronghold, because it doesn't make narrative sense, and the powers of the enemy, while different, and not with plate, have some very powerful tools. They did have a lot more users of plate in the past, and barely won many desolations.

But they won them all, and in most desolations Heralds needed to teach people how to cast bronze and other basic knowledge, they spend most of the fighting with few Radiants and less organized force than they have now. Right now they have multiple fully developed kingdoms, and they are still barely holding on. Ultimately while Radiants are stronger than Fused, there is more Fused + they can come back so they have numbers and experience advantage for most of the time.

Edited March 24, 2021 by therunner

Enter a username · March 24, 2021

I'm siding with the Mistborn for a number of reasons:

Bendalloy. While the Radiant simply can't make any real plans, the Mistborn can pause time whenever they want and carefully formulate a plan.
Pewter, though this one is more psychological. While I fully agree that the Radiant would be just as strong, if not stronger, they'd be used to a huge advantage over an opponent. Pewter would level the playing field at least somewhat, and the Radiant would have to adapt. Mistborn on the other hand, fight other Mistborn and Misting kill squads on a semi-regular basis. They know how to fight someone who matches their strength and agility.
Nicrosil. People have said that chromium would take a few seconds to wipe a Radiant's Stormlight reserves, but what about the opposite route? A massive burst of Stormlight followed by none at all will shock the Radiant much more than their Stormlight quickly being drained.
Electrum. I have seen this mentioned, I haven't seen it really discussed the way iron or pewter have. Being able to see what plans end in failure before completing them is a huge asset. (Clarification: I know that electrum only works a few seconds into the future. What I mean by this is being able to cancel an attack knowing that carrying through would have killed you.)
Steel. Pushing coins into the Radant's plate might not crack it, but it will chip away at their Stormlight. In addition, it allows for a range of mobility only outclassed by Windrunners and Skybreakers- and even then, the Radiant has to engage eventually. And concerning the Stoneward scenario mentioned earlier, the Mistborn could put their anchor on the ground the Stoneward is standing on.
A Mistborn's fuel will last much longer than a Radiant's. Metals burn much slower than Stormlight leaves, and can be turned on and off at will. Comparing sixteen gemstones to sixteen metal vials, the Radiant would have to use a gemstone... maybe every minute or two. The Mistborn would only have to use a metal vial several minutes after the last one. Then there's the problem of Stormlight leaking faster when the Radiant is holding more, and being consumed whenever the Radiant experiences any bodily damage, no matter how minor, or whenever the plate cracks at all. Metal vials will last longer than Stormlight, unless the Mistborn acts like an idiot and wastes all the combat-useful metals in each one on duralumin the first chance they get. The Mistborn just has to outlast the Radiant, because the Radiant will run out of Stormlight and that will rob them of a major advantage.
Planning. As mentioned above, bendalloy allows the Mistborn time to carefully formulate plans mid-battle.The only plans a Radiant can use are those they brought in from before the battle started, which can quickly fall apart.
Ranged attacks. The only ranged attacks a Radiant can use require a somewhat significant use of Stormlight. A Mistborn's ability to Steelpush coins is comparatively much cheaper.

And I'm not even considering atium, because that usually lasts a minute or two, which is more than enough time with all the advantages I just mentioned. Even with near-invincible armor and an instant death sword, how do you fight someone who can clearly see both the immediate future and how that future affects them?

Even without atium, a Radiant can't outplan someone who can lay out specific plans whenever they want, outlast someone whose fuel lasts longer, or outthink someone who can literally see the how your strike affects them before you make it. I know about that one WoB that said that Vin could sometimes defeat 3rd ideal Kaladin, but she was missing several metals that would have given her a big advantage, and Kaladin is far from an average Windrunner.

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

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