Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

Frustration · March 23, 2021

4 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Going to point out two things here, the first 'one of the reasons I support the radiants so heavily', I would add, even if you can prove one order at 4th oath does have a decided edge, which I think might even have the advantage the depending on the powers of elsecallers and bondsmiths, at best you are only proving a smaller subset, much less than the majority of the Radiants at the fourth oath, have an advantage. That in fact, does not prove Radiants stronger at that level. Only some of them.

My point was that no Radiant could be captured like that, capturing Radiants is ludicusly difficult, I had an entire thread about it a while back.

5 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Second, are you trying to say stonewards create stone, or would come from the stone itself and surprise them? A smart mistborn would be gliding at least a little in the air vs a stoneward anyway to begin with. Or do you mean an elsecaller soulcasting the air to stone? Then that goes back to my first point there.

Either way it's almost instantanious.

Bigmikey357 · March 23, 2021

Duraluminum is a boss magnifying ability. A run-of-the-mill Mistborn could likely kill a 2nd Oath Radiant and give severe problems to a 3rd Ideal. But as strong as it is I don't think it beats Plate. And the main strike against that Mistborn is that without a healing factor their attack must be either instantly lethal or crippling. The thing about a 3rd Ideal Radiant is that they have at least one attack that's instantly lethal if it lands, 2 or 3 for some Orders. A 4th Ideal Radiant has 2 attacks that are instantly lethal or crippling, without any reference to their Surges. We've seen dead Plate punches kill people. Every time a Radiant levels up the Mistborn loses their margin for error. Radiant makes a mistake? Most things they can heal from and learn from. Mistborn makes a mistake? They may come out of it with a dead limb at best. Most times they end up just dead.

Good point about Medallions making a big difference. Problem is that they are unkeyed, meaning anyone can use them regardless of connections with a Shard. Get the Medallion, gain the ability. I can't imagine a total victory by a Scadrian army even if every troop they had ran on the Medallion tech. Same problem with guns if you can get them to work on Roshar. Any buff you give to Scadrial can be just as easily be given to Roshar after one or 2 battles. It takes longer for Scadrians to duplicate Rosharan advantages with the Spren. Nobody is jumping from no oath strength to 5 Ideal advantages in days or even months. Scadrial loses their advantages much more quickly than Roshar, at least on Roshar.

AirsickAviar · March 23, 2021

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My point was that no Radiant could be captured like that, capturing Radiants is ludicusly difficult, I had an entire thread about it a while back.

I'm confused. Was I mentioning something where a mistborn would try and capture a radiant? If this is some A>B, and B>C, then A>C logic, then understand, that is fallacious. Just because one can be trapped more easily, does not mean that translates to battles against others just as easily. The two are very different things.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Either way it's almost instantanious.

When it is done, yes. Since you are mentioning this in this way, I am going to assume you mean Jasnah's near instant soulcasting touch, where she simply palms soldiers in the one battle for the wall killing them instantly. She can kill some at a distance, but she definitely needs to have some distance factor, or she wouldn't want to have gotten in as close as she did many times. But she can do much of it at a distance, it does seem to be up in the air for me as in 'why I had elsecallers and bondsmiths as my possible orders with an advantage, depending on the full range of their powers', which seems to be nebulous at the moment. As for stonewards, are you saying they can instantly surround people with stone at a distance? That is not how we have seen the surge work. Not from Dalinar's visions or from even the Fuzes's glimpses of how they use what would be considered the same surge in combat. Which should tell us something. No, those fuzed with the same display of stone powers would not kill a mistborn in an open field, they would be prey with equal knowledge of the other's abilities. Being able to jump up from walls or surrounding floors and surprise them, encasing them in stones and the like, would do them no good for the flying mistborn, waiting for them to reveal themselves and act accordingly.

The Technovore · March 23, 2021

@AirsickAviar, Mistborn "fly" based on their ability to steelpush, which has a height limit and mobility limit. I can see a Mistborn being able to perhaps scatter coins around a field so they can keep themselves in the air and maneuver, but that requires more control than a Gravitation Surgebinder just pointing themselves in a direction. Gravitation Surgebinders also don't have a height limit. The point is that they can stay out of reach. I mentioned ways that they can nullify a Metalborn's offensive ability, but I didn't say they were running. A Gravitation Surgebinder can do the trick with launching projectiles too. A Skybreaker has division, and Windrunners have reverse lashings that something something idk makes you a projectile magnet.

The point of throwing up protective walls is that duralumin + pewter is a one-shot trick (unless they have multiple vials.) You waste that shot on a wall instead of the Radiant, you're in trouble. The CR... I mean fair, but yea, soulcasting.

The point is, is that a Mistborn going on the offensive against and aware enemy is going to be hard against most orders. I would have faith that such a hit would be really destructive, but it needs to catch them unawares or it will fail. And remember--every move the Mistborn makes is a move the Radiant is also making. A Mistborn spraying out coins is an opportunity for a Radiant to get close and apply a surge. A Mistborn hitting the stone wall instead of the Radiant is a Mistborn briefly vulnerable to a shardblade going through the wall and into them.

"Metalborn don't need to use their legs." Okay, but pewter doesn't make you invulnerable to pain. Vin had to flare pewter to keep lucid after breaking her leg in TFE, but she couldn't do anything to fight (granted TLR had other things going to help with that but). And unsplinted broken legs are going to be dangling and moving as the Mistborn moves. That's a lot of pain (speaking from experience) and is going to cripple a mistborn.

I think a great point that's being overlooked in the Mistborn's favor is the fact that when they're not contesting other Mistborn, they have no reason to stick to daggers. A Mistborn fighting Radiants could totally hold a mace, greatsword, or warhammer, and that's going to do a lot more against Sprenplate.

I'm not totally discounting your scenario, I think it has merit, I'm just pointing out that if certain things happen, that same scenario can turn agains the Mistborn. It's hard to disable a Radiant, but I can totally see a duralumin-fueled ambush completely killing a Radiant. It just gets dramatically more toss-uppy when the Radiant actually realizes they're being attacked.

(Also we don't know that lightweavers aren't proficient with soulcasting, we just know that Shallan isn't very good with it. Different Radiants have different proficiencies with their surges. I would bet that there would be Jasnah-esque Lightweavers and Shallan-esque Elsecallers in SAs future when it comes to soulcasting)

Frustration · March 24, 2021

3 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

I'm confused. Was I mentioning something where a mistborn would try and capture a radiant? If this is some A>B, and B>C, then A>C logic, then understand, that is fallacious. Just because one can be trapped more easily, does not mean that translates to battles against others just as easily. The two are very different things.

My point is that even without any fuels Radiants still have blades and plate, making them one man armies. A Mistborn without fuel is an ordinary human.

4 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

IWhen it is done, yes. Since you are mentioning this in this way, I am going to assume you mean Jasnah's near instant soulcasting touch, where she simply palms soldiers in the one battle for the wall killing them instantly. She can kill some at a distance, but she definitely needs to have some distance factor, or she wouldn't want to have gotten in as close as she did many times. But she can do much of it at a distance, it does seem to be up in the air for me as in 'why I had elsecallers and bondsmiths as my possible orders with an advantage, depending on the full range of their powers', which seems to be nebulous at the moment. As for stonewards, are you saying they can instantly surround people with stone at a distance? That is not how we have seen the surge work. Not from Dalinar's visions or from even the Fuzes's glimpses of how they use what would be considered the same surge in combat. Which should tell us something. No, those fuzed with the same display of stone powers would not kill a mistborn in an open field, they would be prey with equal knowledge of the other's abilities. Being able to jump up from walls or surrounding floors and surprise them, encasing them in stones and the like, would do them no good for the flying mistborn, waiting for them to reveal themselves and act accordingly.

Venli made an entire section of Urithiru fluctuate and Willshapers are less attuned to that sort of thing than Stonewards.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

7 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Duraluminum is a boss magnifying ability. A run-of-the-mill Mistborn could likely kill a 2nd Oath Radiant and give severe problems to a 3rd Ideal. But as strong as it is I don't think it beats Plate. And the main strike against that Mistborn is that without a healing factor their attack must be either instantly lethal or crippling. The thing about a 3rd Ideal Radiant is that they have at least one attack that's instantly lethal if it lands, 2 or 3 for some Orders. A 4th Ideal Radiant has 2 attacks that are instantly lethal or crippling, without any reference to their Surges. We've seen dead Plate punches kill people. Every time a Radiant levels up the Mistborn loses their margin for error. Radiant makes a mistake? Most things they can heal from and learn from. Mistborn makes a mistake? They may come out of it with a dead limb at best. Most times they end up just dead.

Good point about Medallions making a big difference. Problem is that they are unkeyed, meaning anyone can use them regardless of connections with a Shard. Get the Medallion, gain the ability. I can't imagine a total victory by a Scadrian army even if every troop they had ran on the Medallion tech. Same problem with guns if you can get them to work on Roshar. Any buff you give to Scadrial can be just as easily be given to Roshar after one or 2 battles. It takes longer for Scadrians to duplicate Rosharan advantages with the Spren. Nobody is jumping from no oath strength to 5 Ideal advantages in days or even months. Scadrial loses their advantages much more quickly than Roshar, at least on Roshar.

I agree. They make a mistake, and they are dead. They are fragile. But either's primary strike in this case would end it. This is a first to land that strike contest. The radiants definitely have more options to strike, but the mistborn they have the advantage of the dexterity and speed combo to be able to land a hit that would still defeat the radiant of even the fourth oath, except for a couple orders (friction manipulation), that probably can beat them in that department, but then they would have the flight advantage. And given how little things in the way tended to trip up Lift, and the ability to easily manipulate metal and where it is at (they could get an edge to where to set up that strike point for this attack), I don't see a point where a veteran mistborn who knows what to expect from these radiants, would not be able to pull it off more times than not.

The Technovore · March 24, 2021

3 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Duraluminum is a boss magnifying ability. A run-of-the-mill Mistborn could likely kill a 2nd Oath Radiant and give severe problems to a 3rd Ideal. But as strong as it is I don't think it beats Plate. And the main strike against that Mistborn is that without a healing factor their attack must be either instantly lethal or crippling. The thing about a 3rd Ideal Radiant is that they have at least one attack that's instantly lethal if it lands, 2 or 3 for some Orders. A 4th Ideal Radiant has 2 attacks that are instantly lethal or crippling, without any reference to their Surges. We've seen dead Plate punches kill people. Every time a Radiant levels up the Mistborn loses their margin for error. Radiant makes a mistake? Most things they can heal from and learn from. Mistborn makes a mistake? They may come out of it with a dead limb at best. Most times they end up just dead.

Good point about Medallions making a big difference. Problem is that they are unkeyed, meaning anyone can use them regardless of connections with a Shard. Get the Medallion, gain the ability. I can't imagine a total victory by a Scadrian army even if every troop they had ran on the Medallion tech. Same problem with guns if you can get them to work on Roshar. Any buff you give to Scadrial can be just as easily be given to Roshar after one or 2 battles. It takes longer for Scadrians to duplicate Rosharan advantages with the Spren. Nobody is jumping from no oath strength to 5 Ideal advantages in days or even months. Scadrial loses their advantages much more quickly than Roshar, at least on Roshar.

So this is something I've been thinking about. I've been assuming this would be occurring on Roshar, but the more I think about the more I realize that if we're looking at Era 2 Scad v Roshar, Roshar would be the attacking force. Scadrians don't have access to the CR, but Rosharan's do, therefore if anyone's going to be invading anyone, it would be a Rosharan force showing up in the Scadrian CR, then making the transition over via Bondsmith perpendicularity. This complicates things for Roshar.

We know that a Shard's investiture can be accessed anywhere (see, Allomancy working on Roshar, which taps into Preservation/Harmony). Which means the Surges and Stormlight should work. The hard part is the Nahel bond. The spren are splinters of Honor with a little Culti thrown in, and Honor is invested and Connected to Roshar, which means that actual Radiants likely wouldn't be able to make it to Scad (Bondsmiths maybe, but that's complicated and unknown.)

So... Scadrians can unkey their magic system and give it to anyone through medallions. I have to assume it's somehow possible for Roshar as well. Perhaps gemhearts?... but unfortunately considering this really kills the fun of the scenario. A Roshar force without Radiants entering Scad would cause some brief chaos and be a crisis for Elendel but eventually the police force and militia would rally and the guns would annihilate the dudes with spears (and fabrials, probably). So in this scenario we have to either ignore that inconvenient little rule about the CR, or we have to understand exactly why Sanderson has Scad v Rosh only occurring in Era 4 when both planets crack Physical Realm FTL.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My point is that even without any fuels Radiants still have blades and plate, making them one man armies. A Mistborn without fuel is an ordinary human.

But that is that exact a beats b which beats c does not necessarily mean a beats c fallacy I mentioned. Yes, if resorted to no powers, than a mistborn loses, what of it? If it is about potential in this fight, know that 2 mistborn took out an entire fortification of soldiers, and killed like 1000 soldiers in just the span of 10 minutes, and Vin then might as well have been the one to fight an army by herself, even if it really did drain her and take her out of the fight of energy for some time (but consider, to do the same amount of damage on the enemy, vs the odds she had, not even old Dalinar surrounded by the Parhendi even came close. And he was also largely brutalized and drained just as well. No, if it was vs fighting armies like that I would have taken Vin every time). But this isn't who can damage an army. This is about hyper powered fighters vs hyper powered fighters. This isn't about 'what if we take away ability 1 and ability 2, and who has the most value? No, in a fight, if ability 1 and 2 are so good they can take the place of the other not having 1, 2 or 3, then it doesn't matter. You trying to make the point like that is fallacious. I don't care if Radiants specific extra abilities make it harder for them to be captured. In an everyday combat situation, that ability might be much less useful than others.

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Venli made an entire section of Urithiru fluctuate and Willshapers are less attuned to that sort of thing than Stonewards.

She joined the stone, going to a frequency where it was malleable. She joined it, became it, and was able to even be absorbed into the stone, talking to it. A large section of stone, but not doing to it what you are implying here. She wasn't just summoning a fresh wall to smother everyone. I think you really rate what she did more effectively for combat here than I think it properly demonstrates at all. Others with the same ability in the Fuzed, if they were near that powerful, really, really lowballed their showings then in that same book.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

44 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Mistborn "fly" based on their ability to steelpush, which has a height limit and mobility limit. I can see a Mistborn being able to perhaps scatter coins around a field so they can keep themselves in the air and maneuver, but that requires more control than a Gravitation Surgebinder just pointing themselves in a direction. Gravitation Surgebinders also don't have a height limit. The point is that they can stay out of reach. I mentioned ways that they can nullify a Metalborn's offensive ability, but I didn't say they were running. A Gravitation Surgebinder can do the trick with launching projectiles too. A Skybreaker has division, and Windrunners have reverse lashings that something something idk makes you a projectile magnet.

Going as high as they do, over the tops of towers and having a bird's eye view of a city, is high enough. Enough to clear any extra helps for the surgebinding, and still bring all the weapons needed in the pockets of the mistborn. At that height, what weapons a windrunner going to use on them? I don't see them reverse lashing a couch in the air. If they brought bows or something like that, the mistborn should just disable that first, without needing any duralamin. Beyond that... Typical lashed things like furniture? That is a weapon for the windrunners when they brought a bunch of stuff to lash. At these heights, the windrunner and skybreaker both would have to get closer than the mistborn to do damage. But I do agree, in so doing that, they will be more vulnerable. Though, the skybreaker could simply break apart the projectiles. I could see a lot of games though, feigning strength, keeping duralamin, from the first hit, to a bunch of duds disintegrated, until a close one, that moves far quicker than expected. You would still have to plan the hits though. I would imagine they should bring vials of the stuff. If the proper distances are maintained, the mistborn should keep out of attack range of the surgebinders, for the second or two it takes to refill their metals via vials, since they would be having a greater range of attack themselves.

44 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

The point of throwing up protective walls is that duralumin + pewter is a one-shot trick (unless they have multiple vials.) You waste that shot on a wall instead of the Radiant, you're in trouble. The CR... I mean fair, but yea, soulcasting.

They would have to get through the wall themselves. If they are soulcasting, they are not flying. I expect a mistborn will be at this stage. And this mistborn, would be safe enough where a second or two disabled shouldn't kill them straight off. Besides, these shots aren't even met necessarily to kill the radiant, only force them to commit. If they aren't willing, then keep at that safe point.

44 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

"Metalborn don't need to use their legs." Okay, but pewter doesn't make you invulnerable to pain. Vin had to flare pewter to keep lucid after breaking her leg in TFE, but she couldn't do anything to fight (granted TLR had other things going to help with that but). And unsplinted broken legs are going to be dangling and moving as the Mistborn moves. That's a lot of pain (speaking from experience) and is going to cripple a mistborn.

I think a great point that's being overlooked in the Mistborn's favor is the fact that when they're not contesting other Mistborn, they have no reason to stick to daggers. A Mistborn fighting Radiants could totally hold a mace, greatsword, or warhammer, and that's going to do a lot more against Sprenplate.

Using a duralamin hit with a mace on shardplate shouldn't take out a mistborn from a fight anywhere near what it took for Vin to have broke her leg though. Provided they landed it cleanly anyway. My point with the legs is they shouldn't have to do what Kaladin did when he broke his legs, or even necessarily what Vin did. The ideal attack to take advantage of that awesome strike would be to have better tools than either of those situations used. Like what you just pointed out. In this world, the Mistborns would have discounted their daggers long before this point in the world.

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar
Air weapon clarification.

Bejarden · March 24, 2021

I would say that a duraluminium mace=Shard hammer hit with Shardplate so it will crack the plate but not break it I believe

Compounding would get greater affects of course

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

would say that a duraluminium mace=Shard hammer hit with Shardplate so it will crack the plate but not break it I believe

Compounding would get greater affects of course

You do realize shard hammer was just a weapon designed to be wielded by a person in shardplate who did not have a blade, by mundane technologies as they had no idea how to make a shardblade?

IE, I have a strong suspicion it is just a really tough hammer made of really good, but normal metals. But so heavy, no normal person could lift it an use it without shardplate. Nothing the Scadrians could not recreate exactly, and knowing the abilities of mistborns, probably even make a better version than a shardhammer for this purpose. And they could wield it without needing the Dura. That just makes it go so far beyond it....

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar

Bejarden · March 24, 2021

2 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

You do realize shard hammer was just a weapon designed to be wielded by a person in shardplate who did not have a blade, by mundane technologies as they had no idea how to make a shardblade?

IE, I have a strong suspicion it is just a really tough hammer made of really good, but normal metals. But so heavy, no normal person could lift it an use it without shardplate. Nothing the Scadrians could not recreate exactly, and knowing the abilities of mistborns, probably even make a better version than a shardhammer for this purpose. And they could wield it without needing the Dura. That just makes it go so far beyond it....

Yes that was exactly what I was going for and yes I did know that

I was using the anolagy because we have seen shardhammers before

The Technovore · March 24, 2021

23 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

They would have to get through the wall themselves. If they are soulcasting, they are not flying. I expect a mistborn will be at this stage. And this mistborn, would be safe enough where a second or two disabled shouldn't kill them straight off. Besides, these shots aren't even met necessarily to kill the radiant, only force them to commit. If they aren't willing, then keep at that safe point.

I don't really have any problems with the rest of your post, but I'm not sure what to make of this paragraph.

You did a lot of talking about fallacies, but skating right past my mention in the post you quoted where a shardblade can go through that same wall easily... hmm. Also, I'm not talking about Radiants soulcasting & flying, no Radiant has Transformation and Gravitation. Maybe I wasn't very clear in the quoted paragraph, but I was talking about your rebuttals to my mentioning of the different Radiant powers making it difficult for a Mistborn to get close. "I expect a mistborn will be at this stage." ...Flying and Soulcasting? Interesting powerset that Mistborn has...

In close melee combat a second or 2 is MORE than enough to get you killed, especially when the enemy knight doesn't even need to put any force into their swing (effortless cutting).

Also, Steelpushing has a really nice tall height limit, but the point is is that that height limit is still there. A Gravitation Radiant can go higher. Talking about projectiles, I wasn't thinking furniture, rather than a coin or perhaps a small lead ball. A Gravitation Radiant can send them flying at high speed, which is investiture-intensive but can kill a surprised Mistborn immediately (although honestly I think a Mistborn is capable of dodging it). Duralumin is awesome, my point is that unless you're taking a Radiant by surprise, landing that hit is going to be pretty difficult, a lot of Radiant Orders have a lot of options for mobility or defense.

Bigmikey357 · March 24, 2021

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

I agree. They make a mistake, and they are dead. They are fragile. But either's primary strike in this case would end it. This is a first to land that strike contest. The radiants definitely have more options to strike, but the mistborn they have the advantage of the dexterity and speed combo to be able to land a hit that would still defeat the radiant of even the fourth oath, except for a couple orders (friction manipulation), that probably can beat them in that department, but then they would have the flight advantage. And given how little things in the way tended to trip up Lift, and the ability to easily manipulate metal and where it is at (they could get an edge to where to set up that strike point for this attack), I don't see a point where a veteran mistborn who knows what to expect from these radiants, would not be able to pull it off more times than not.

And the Radiants heal. Say your Mistborn does all this fighting and maneuver, lines up the perfect shot, tries to execute. The spren sends a warning or even reacts on it's own and that strike either completely misses or just clips the Radiant. Maybe the warning isn't in time and the Mistborn delivers a strike that would kill most people. Well unless he completely pulped the skull or decapitated him that Radiant survives. They may have a hard time but they are still combat effective.

A mistborn can hold off a Second Ideal Radiant pretty handily in most cases, no magical soul severing weapons, no armor, nacient surges and limited healing. Living Shardblade at 3rd takes more consideration, more care, but the healing is faster, the Surges are stronger, and Stormlight grants a bit more vitality, maybe not as much as a pewter burn but more than merely human base. But that 4th Ideal, that Living Plate and Blade combo? You may be confident enough to pit a Mistborn against someone in a quarter ton of non-magically reactive (no steel pushes etc al) armor that makes one nearly as dexterous and quick as any Thug, whose every punch might as well be duraluminum fueled for the damage inflicted on the guy getting punched. I'm betting on the guy who has all that and needs only one opening to destroy his opponent's ability to fight at the very least.

@BenduLuke

Iron burns at about 1500°C. There is no way any human body can even reach such a temperature without every fluid in their body explosively combusting. Chemical burning and Allomantic burning are not the same, not by a long shot.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And the Radiants heal. Say your Mistborn does all this fighting and maneuver, lines up the perfect shot, tries to execute. The spren sends a warning or even reacts on it's own and that strike either completely misses or just clips the Radiant.

They win, or they don't. They either miss, or they don't. But the mistborn's have the better speed and agility here vs most radiants. But getting hit by the equivalent of a shardhammer with the equivalent of at least dozens of shardbearers worth of strength is going to end the fight, if it lands. Trying to pretend otherwise is a bit silly. Yes, a Dura + pewter push, with such a weapon would have that power. To pretend otherwise is to not understand one or both of those metals being burned.

Due to the nature of the mistborn, and all of the extra abilities here, I have them hitting that when they are practiced, more times than not, vs most radiants. And btw, 'just clipping them', will still hit them like a mack truck in this case. It might not kill them, but it will probably give enough of a jolt to give the mistborn time to remetal up. A more direct strike, will simply win it in the mistborn's favor. So again, it either hits, or it doesn't. Healing in this context for the Radiant is irrelevant.

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar

The Technovore · March 24, 2021

1 minute ago, AirsickAviar said:

They either miss, or they don't. But they have the better reflexes here. But getting hit by the equivalent of a shardhammer with the equivalent of HUNDREDS of shardbearers worth of strength is going to end the fight, if it lands. Trying to pretend otherwise is a bit silly. Yes, a Dura + pewter push, with such a weapon would have that power. To pretend otherwise is to not understand one or both of those metals being burned.

Due to the nature of the mistborn, and all of the extra abilities here, I have them hitting that when they are practiced, more times than not, vs most radiants. And btw, 'just clipping them', will still hit them like a mack truck in this case. It might not kill them, but it will probably give them enough of a jolt to give the mistborn to remetal up. A more direct strike, will simply win it in the mistborn's favor. So again, it either hits, or it doesn't. Healing in this context for the Radiant is irrelevant.

Mmm. I'm going to have to agree with this.

Look, say it clips a Radiant on the shoulder or sort of kinda hits their side. Let's say the Radiant saw it coming and tried to move to the side, so it hit their shoulder. First thing that'll happen is the local sprenplate is going to shatter. Second thing that'll happen is that hammer is going to separate the joint from the socket. Third thing that will happen is the kinetic energy is going to send that guy flying. He's going to be spinning violently, and if their arm doesn't completely come off because stormlight, it will be totally destroyed. The Radiant launches away some 20ft, spinning, and slams into a rock, cracking and breaking their plate more. They're dazed, but stormlight keeps them awake. They realize their arm is totally useless. The Mistborn is downing another vial and moving in. The stormlight starts to reknit the flesh together in their shoulder, but the pain is great. The Radiant staggers to their feet. The Mistborn drills a single lead ball right through the Radiant with a durasteel push, smashing through that weakened sprenplate. Actually it was eight lead balls. The Radiant staggers again, still alive but now their stormlight healing is working overtime just to keep them alive. The Mistborn has caught up to them now. The Radiant summons their sprenblade and swings but the Mistborn easily sidesteps. The Mistborn delivers a hammer-blow straight to the head. And then does it again. One more time for good measure.

Mistborn wins. One hit may not kill the Radiant, but it can shift momentum quickly enough that the Mistborn has victory.

Alt ending: Actually it was eight lead balls. The Radiant staggers again, still alive but now their stormlight healing is working overtime just to keep them alive. The Mistborn has caught up to them now. The Radiant throws up their hand and uses their lingering stormlight to escape to the CR. They spend the next month struggling to survive before finding a perpendicularity. Mistborn still mostly wins.

Bejarden · March 24, 2021

I see this working one time but then Radiants will know to throw up a shield when this happens

which will hurt but will not incapacitate

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

You did a lot of talking about fallacies, but skating right past my mention in the post you quoted where a shardblade can go through that same wall easily... hmm. Also, I'm not talking about Radiants soulcasting & flying, no Radiant has Transformation and Gravitation. Maybe I wasn't very clear in the quoted paragraph, but I was talking about your rebuttals to my mentioning of the different Radiant powers making it difficult for a Mistborn to get close. "I expect a mistborn will be at this stage." ...Flying and Soulcasting? Interesting powerset that Mistborn has...

Apparently I will endeavor not to talk about fallacies, as apparently that is an irritation, sorry. I will just try and explain it other ways, similar principle. I wasn't trying to skate by anything. I was just thinking, if they build a wall, they can charge in after them, sure. But in that same time, a metalborn could simply leap that wall just as well. Unless you are saying they built a wall in them, which goes back to the previous point in soulcasting, and obviously we are talking just a couple orders here.

And obviously with the fighting in the air and ways to combat soulcasting, it was me talking generalities, about the two different scenes we are envisioning, between a radiant, and a mistborn. One, if they were dealing with a soulcaster, and the other if they were against a skybreaker or a windrunner. I figured that was obvious as well, but I have a failing in communication sometimes, and will try and make that clearer.

A skybreaker or a windrunner would need to get in the danger radius of a mistborn first, not the other way around. I believe I already said as much, forcing them to commit.

A elsecaller may have an advantage, depending on if they can just summon at a distance the air the mistborn breathes into fire. But for instance, if they have to get close enough to summon that wall, or like how Jasnah constantly relied on going out and touching a soldier causing that first reaction, weaving in and out of them doing that (like how it was described in the battle at the end of book 3)... Then I would say the mistborn can definitely get close enough in to kill them. It will definitely be a lot much of a roll of the dice than just about any other order though. If the elsecaller plays it smart, I say they win perhaps 80% of those rounds to be honest. It only goes to 100% if some of the limits I am not so sure about do or do not exist in the right ways on their power.

And again, if this is about stoneward's walls, I still don't find them a threat here.

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Also, Steelpushing has a really nice tall height limit, but the point is is that that height limit is still there.

Mentioning a limit out of bounds doesn't do anything though, not really worth mentioning. It doesn't give them a useful point of comparison in a fight, as an SR71 can go way higher than an F35, but one is far better at war in the sky than the other one, and it isn't the one that can go higher. Height in war is only useful if it can give you an edge, or in this contest, if it does. This? It gives them no edge, they can both fly, and focus on each other. And the mistborn would prefer this sort of contest I think, with the radiant trying to keep their distance, having more practice with it, compared to most of the sparring in the air they would be used to. But to finish them off, the mistborn would want that anyway. So again, back to square one. I don't think this is an argument for either the windrunnners or stormbreakers.

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Also, Steelpushing has a really nice tall height limit, but the point is is that that height limit is still there. A Gravitation Radiant can go higher. Talking about projectiles, I wasn't thinking furniture, rather than a coin or perhaps a small lead ball. A Gravitation Radiant can send them flying at high speed, which is investiture-intensive but can kill a surprised Mistborn immediately (although honestly I think a Mistborn is capable of dodging it). Duralumin is awesome, my point is that unless you're taking a Radiant by surprise, landing that hit is going to be pretty difficult, a lot of Radiant Orders have a lot of options for mobility or defense.

Didn't consider lead balls. I would hope they wouldn't be dumb enough to choose them vs a metalborn :), but I see your point. It would be clumsy though. Due to the nature of their lashings, effecting gravity direction, and that heavy objects fall faster, it would really narrow their options. And only a few set of options at once. No where near the shear scope of this sort of combat in the tools of a mistborn. This is something they could deal with, and far easier than some of the other everyday training in mistborn sparring that I think they would have went through, this I can only really see going one way on a large scale. And it is not something I expect a radiant wanting to keep stormlight will suffer for too long, thus serving the purpose here to bring the fight to closer combat.

Why I don't disagree, it is a hard ask. A lot of radiants are slippery, no pun intended. It's just I have full faith that mistborns can hit hard targets, as they also are freakishly agile, quick, can also fly to at least catch up or harass wr/sb's and getting them to either give up and leave, giving them the battlefield, or risking getting into a closer confrontation, in which I still think, the metalborn at least has a better than even chance. At the very least, not a bad one. I find this true vs most orders, despite their good sets of abilities. And in outright flying speed, given the rate at which Vin and co when they mastered the full portfolio were able to move through the empire with only flying horseshoes, they might even have the better top speed. Idk though, that would probably take some figuring out on the 'how long', and more importantly 'how much miles does this journey translate to', but with an even scale of the maps on my mind, I always figured them faster, but not with a degree of certainty.

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I see this working one time but then Radiants will know to throw up a shield when this happens

which will hurt but will not incapacitate

In that case, I could see another adjustment where the strikes would be done in a manner to be able to pound a shield into submission. Result? Broken hands. Reprieve, enough for more metals.

Even a shield isn't going to stop all of that kinetic energy. I could even see it coming with enough force to hit that shield where it itself will hit with enough force to hurt. Pray that the radiant expects the force on the shield, because if he is holding that sucker improperly braced... It's the difference of a stunning attack, or that of crippling your arm altogether. Such incredible shard hammer attacks, with the strength of someone who already has 3x the strength of a man, hundreds fold, is going to pack one hell of a whallop, when put on a hammer point. No matter what shield you are holding. That energy needs to go somewhere.

Chances are, it sends them flying, or at the very least. That still serves the mistborn. They would probably be better served in planning for such a strike, and striking first. They have the shapeshifting blades. I still don't think they have the reflexes of a mistborn, but those blades have possibilities none of them seem to have mastered. They will win more often if they try not to make this a power contest against a pewter+dura+warhammer strike. In that case, they will lose more often.

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar

Frustration · March 24, 2021

1 hour ago, AirsickAviar said:

But that is that exact a beats b which beats c does not necessarily mean a beats c fallacy I mentioned. Yes, if resorted to no powers, than a mistborn loses, what of it? If it is about potential in this fight, know that 2 mistborn took out an entire fortification of soldiers, and killed like 1000 soldiers in just the span of 10 minutes, and Vin then might as well have been the one to fight an army by herself, even if it really did drain her and take her out of the fight of energy for some time (but consider, to do the same amount of damage on the enemy, vs the odds she had, not even old Dalinar surrounded by the Parhendi even came close. And he was also largely brutalized and drained just as well. No, if it was vs fighting armies like that I would have taken Vin every time). But this isn't who can damage an army. This is about hyper powered fighters vs hyper powered fighters. This isn't about 'what if we take away ability 1 and ability 2, and who has the most value? No, in a fight, if ability 1 and 2 are so good they can take the place of the other not having 1, 2 or 3, then it doesn't matter. You trying to make the point like that is fallacious. I don't care if Radiants specific extra abilities make it harder for them to be captured. In an everyday combat situation, that ability might be much less useful than others.

She joined the stone, going to a frequency where it was malleable. She joined it, became it, and was able to even be absorbed into the stone, talking to it. A large section of stone, but not doing to it what you are implying here. She wasn't just summoning a fresh wall to smother everyone. I think you really rate what she did more effectively for combat here than I think it properly demonstrates at all. Others with the same ability in the Fuzed, if they were near that powerful, really, really lowballed their showings then in that same book.

Ok, first off please don't double post(posting twice without someone else posting) it's against site policy

Second, if someone can lift 1,000 pounds easily, and I cannot lift 1,000 pounds, that is A>B>C

I don't care if it's a falicy or not I'm not getting in a fight with them, because I will lose, no questions asked.

Radiants can kill a Mistborn instantly, Mistborn cannont kill Radiants Instantly, Radiants can heal from everything short of death, Mistborn cannont. Radiants can make mistakes Mistborn cannot. I don't care wether you call it a fallicy or not until you can prove that Mistborn can overcome that disadvantage my stance is set.

Third

Quote

"The stone near her hand began to undulate, like ripples on the surface of a pond. A tone surged through her, then began to pulse with the song of a rhythm she'd never heard, but somehow always known. A profound, sonorous rhythm, ancient as the core of Roshar.

The entire wall followed suit, then the ceiling and the floor, surrounding her with a beautiful rhythm set to a pure tone."

-Rhythm of War page 780

The entire area of stone moved, it later talkes about the ancient listeners making axes by dipping sticks into the stone, she doesn't need to make stone, any stone will do, with the power of plate and shardtools dirt can be removed and the stone beneath exposed, with that any Mistborn who sets foot on stone nearby will have it turned to liquid beneath them, and have their feet trapped like Kaladin in OB. Only I don't think snapping their feet in half is an effective stratagy.

24 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

They win, or they don't. They either miss, or they don't. But the mistborn's have the better speed and agility here vs most radiants. But getting hit by the equivalent of a shardhammer with the equivalent of at least dozens of shardbearers worth of strength is going to end the fight, if it lands. Trying to pretend otherwise is a bit silly. Yes, a Dura + pewter push, with such a weapon would have that power. To pretend otherwise is to not understand one or both of those metals being burned.

Due to the nature of the mistborn, and all of the extra abilities here, I have them hitting that when they are practiced, more times than not, vs most radiants. And btw, 'just clipping them', will still hit them like a mack truck in this case. It might not kill them, but it will probably give enough of a jolt to give the mistborn time to remetal up. A more direct strike, will simply win it in the mistborn's favor. So again, it either hits, or it doesn't. Healing in this context for the Radiant is irrelevant.

Radiants with stormlight alone are on par with thugs, give them surges, and plate and no metalborn short of steelrunners can compete.

Dalinar fell through three buildings and was still in good enough shape to kill his opponent, a truck is not even close to enough.

According to Ivory in a cut scene from WoR only a crushing blow to the head can kill someone holding stomrlight, so unless your attack is enough to go through plate AND pulverize the skull the Radiant will live.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ok, first off please don't double post(posting twice without someone else posting) it's against site policy

Second, if someone can lift 1,000 pounds easily, and I cannot lift 1,000 pounds, that is A>B>C

I don't care if it's a falicy or not I'm not getting in a fight with them, because I will lose, no questions asked.

Radiants can kill a Mistborn instantly, Mistborn cannont kill Radiants Instantly, Radiants can heal from everything short of death, Mistborn cannont. Radiants can make mistakes Mistborn cannot. I don't care wether you call it a fallicy or not until you can prove that Mistborn can overcome that disadvantage my stance is set.

First, I hid my last double post, after your first mention of that in the other thread. But I don't feel like going through all my double posts and doing the same thing. But I will keep that in mind in the future. Thanks for the heads up.

Second, I would, If I knew that person was on one of those shows where they were too big and slow to get out of their own bed without help, like someone on those shows. The ABC is in this case is a general term, because you often run into a lot of situations in real life where a rifleman kills a rocketman very easily, who kills a tank very easily, but that tanks is who also can just trample the first rifleman very easily, who has no practical weapons against it. Aka, rock paper scizzors. But real fight scenarios in real combat with real soldiers are far more complex than that. So no, just stating one trait of anything, where dozens are often just as critically important, even before you get into conditions of terrain or side factors, is silly. That was my point. Vs everything else, being the one most easily capable of being trapped in an underground vault does not mean anything, if you are also the one who can just look at any living thing in sight and vaporize their very subatomic atoms with a glare (we do not have that here, but just to demonstrate directly how your analogy would fall apart one could, but also was trapped in that vault). By your own logic, that person would be unable to compete with a radiant, because 'they were easily trapped in a vault without a fight, and could not do anything, so they must be worse when fighting a radiant!'. No, that is not how this works. The mistborn has a LOT of other VERY useful tools for a LOT of situations, some of which where never even really realized to their fullest potential in any book yet (similar to the radiants). That does not mean because they don't have the tools to do one task (escaping a box with very little resources where they are concerned), they might not have exceedingly better ones for another (fighting a radiant in open combat).

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The entire area of stone moved, it later talkes about the ancient listeners making axes by dipping sticks into the stone, she doesn't need to make stone, any stone will do, with the power of plate and shardtools dirt can be removed and the stone beneath exposed, with that any Mistborn who sets foot on stone nearby will have it turned to liquid beneath them, and have their feet trapped like Kaladin in OB. Only I don't think snapping their feet in half is an effective stratagy.

More or less what I said. The wall became locked in her tone, so that she was one with it in frequency. She could then manipulate the entire stone at will, in this more liquid state. Sculpt out of it... Make weapons out of it. Walk into it and talk to it (as she does later). Everything I said. It was not a part of 'snap my fingers, oh, you rock, go rock monster, run over there, smash. Oh, instantly transport yourself to make a wall right around trapping that mistborn. No, that was not at all how it was described. Nor was that how that surge was used by the fuzed, or in Dalinar's visions in a warzone. If they could just wave their hands and turn the very stone and earth of the battlefield to instantly surround, trap, or kill - you would see them FAR more often than we do, but we do not. Because it is never described as working like that.

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Radiants with stormlight alone are on par with thugs, give them surges, and plate and no metalborn short of steelrunners can compete.

Perhaps less outright durable than any thug flairing it, but with the ability to heal, that becomes redundant, and yes, I would say that makes them MORE than on par with any thug. It makes them far beyond them. But that is as if you are comparing one metal that vs the whole package of a radiant, shardplate included, as if that is the whole argument. A mistborn has far more tools than that. A mistborn can take that Pewter, and suddenly not just be 3 times stronger, but 3000 times stronger for a split second, or have that durability 3000 stronger while connecting with that hit, if it is done cleanly.

EDIT:

I read it the first time and understood, but for some reason going back through while writing I missed it. This was about reflexes, wasn't it? No, I do not believe they are better than a thug with only stormlight, nor even on par with them. Maybe in plate they finally beat them. But vs a mistborn? Who has enhanced tin senses to help guide them? Who usually constantly trains vs others who shoot very, very fast projectiles at them? Flying in the air in such ways that make them constantly have to shift their weight in ways far more complex than simply shifting gravity, and learning to be so graceful as to stun a room between just two mistborns? There are like three metals feeding off each other more than just pewter that together, makes an agility package unlike anything I think any shardplate even can compete against. The only time I think it becomes comparable, or maybe even bested, is when we talk about the friction surge of the edgedancers for instance, properly trained. But even then I admitted this in my discussion on where and how they beat even them, but it is more about their air power then, and gaming against their friction via their other metals (like pushing and pulling on metals, tripping their set friction parameters, like how Lift fails, but a lot more direct, and controlled sabotage). In general, no, I don't believe for one second that a radiant is anywhere near as dextrous, and fast as a mistborn, properly trained, weaving in between attacks in combat, etc. It just goes super next level if you add in Atium, and then it's game over.

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar fell through three buildings and was still in good enough shape to kill his opponent, a truck is not even close to enough

Him falling through three buildings does not tell us much. Did you know such people have survived IRL, during earthquakes? Bizarre survivor stories, often done in 'safe' areas, where the walls and falling debris were less likely to kill them, like around doorways. It is not as if you necessarily need shardplate to survive such a thing, except for maybe the blow that might blast you through that far. It isn't like the entirety to the building hit him, no, probably just a few walls, and maybe a few random objects. And a distance. Keep in mind, even then it is tenous, it is completely random chance. Others we see falling cliffs, etc - in shardplate, and DYING. Either way, him surviving this does not tell us much. It is incredibly less impressive as even getting hit in the head with a shardhammer just 3 times. Much less the damage that we are talking about.

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

According to Ivory in a cut scene from WoR only a crushing blow to the head can kill someone holding stomrlight, so unless your attack is enough to go through plate AND pulverize the skull the Radiant will live.

Yet Eshonai, holding stormlight drowned. So many radiants holding stormlight... Died via other means. Yes, it is the most direct method of killing them, but hardly necessary. Punish them enough with a strong, decisive blow right through their chest for instance would not only debilitate them to the point like Jasnah on the ship (she fled to shadesmar because she was in REAL danger, not 'aha, you cannot kill my, my spren ivory said if I hold stormlight, you would have to crush my skull). No, the other attack did just fine in rendering her in such a state, that if such a person wanted to follow through, they could have killed her if she didn't escape them.

The attacks we are talking about here, would far exceed the ability to end the fight, with the radiant either losing stormlight, and dying before being able to be healed completely, or simply incapacitated healing long enough where they can't protect themselves from that lethal blow. You act as if none of the radiants fighting all those fuzed care when they are starting to wrack up all those wounds and damage. They are far more mortal than you seem to want to pretend.a

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar
Fixed me missing the point on dexterity, so I added my thoughts on that.

Frustration · March 24, 2021

5 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Second, I would, If I knew that person was on one of those shows where they were too big and slow to get out of their own bed without help, like someone on those shows. The ABC is in this case is a general term, because you often run into a lot of situations in real life where a rifleman kills a rocketman very easily, who kills a tank very easily, but that tanks is who also can just trample the first rifleman very easily, who has no practical weapons against it. Aka, rock paper scizzors. But real fight scenarios in real combat with real soldiers are far more complex than that. So no, just stating one trait of anything, where dozens are often just as critically important, even before you get into conditions of terrain or side factors, is silly. That was my point. Vs everything else, being the one most easily capable of being trapped in an underground vault does not mean anything, if you are also the one who can just look at any living thing in sight and vaporize their very subatomic atoms with a glare (we do not have that here, but just to demonstrate directly how your analogy would fall apart one could, but also was trapped in that vault). By your own logic, that person would be unable to compete with a radiant, because 'they were easily trapped in a vault without a fight, and could not do anything, so they must be worse when fighting a radiant!'. No, that is not how this works. The mistborn has a LOT of other VERY useful tools for a LOT of situations, some of which where never even really realized to their fullest potential in any book yet (similar to the radiants). That does not mean because they don't have the tools to do one task (escaping a box with very little resources where they are concerned), they might not have exceedingly better ones for another (fighting a radiant in open combat).

again, how do Mistborn beat Radiants, they are increadibly fast, magical tanks that deal infinate damage.

15 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

More or less what I said. The wall became locked in her tone, so that she was one with it in frequency. She could then manipulate the entire stone at will, in this more liquid state. Sculpt out of it... Make weapons out of it. Walk into it and talk to it (as she does later). Everything I said. It was not a part of 'snap my fingers, oh, you rock, go rock monster, run over there, smash. Oh, instantly transport yourself to make a wall right around trapping that mistborn. No, that was not at all how it was described. Nor was that how that surge was used by the fuzed, or in Dalinar's visions in a warzone. If they could just wave their hands and turn the very stone and earth of the battlefield to instantly surround, trap, or kill - you would see them FAR more often than we do, but we do not. Because it is never described as working like that.

Rise up a wall, turn the stone beneath them to liquid until they sink under and turn it solid an leave them for dead, you don't nead the ability to make new thunderclasts

24 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Perhaps less outright durable than any thug flairing it, but with the ability to heal, that becomes redundant, and yes, I would say that makes them MORE than on par with any thug. It makes them far beyond them. But that is as if you are comparing one metal that vs the whole package of a radiant, shardplate included, as if that is the whole argument. A mistborn has far more tools than that. A mistborn can take that Pewter, and suddenly not just be 3 times stronger, but 3000 times stronger for a split second, or have that durability 3000 stronger while connecting with that hit, if it is done cleanly.

Even if you shatter the plate that won't kill them, but you no longer have any pewter and are going to die.

26 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Him falling through three buildings does not tell us much. Did you know such people have survived IRL, during earthquakes? Bizarre survivor stories, often done in 'safe' areas, where the walls and falling debris were less likely to kill them, like around doorways. It is not as if you necessarily need shardplate to survive such a thing, except for maybe the blow that might blast you through that far. It isn't like the entirety to the building hit him, no, probably just a few walls, and maybe a few random objects. And a distance. Keep in mind, even then it is tenous, it is completely random chance. Others we see falling cliffs, etc - in shardplate, and DYING. Either way, him surviving this does not tell us much. It is incredibly less impressive as even getting hit in the head with a shardhammer just 3 times. Much less the damage that we are talking about.

Renarin jumps off buildings onto his head sveral times without a scratch

when has anyone in plate died solely from a fall?

46 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Yet Eshonai, holding stormlight drowned. So many radiants holding stormlight... Died via other means. Yes, it is the most direct method of killing them, but hardly necessary. Punish them enough with a strong, decisive blow right through their chest for instance would not only debilitate them to the point like Jasnah on the ship (she fled to shadesmar because she was in REAL danger, not 'aha, you cannot kill my, my spren ivory said if I hold stormlight, you would have to crush my skull). No, the other attack did just fine in rendering her in such a state, that if such a person wanted to follow through, they could have killed her if she didn't escape them.

Eshonia didn't drown until she ran out of Stormlight.

Obviously Jasnah was not in real danger as her body was left there after she had been stabbed.

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

The attacks we are talking about here, would far exceed the ability to end the fight, with the radiant either losing stormlight, and dying before being able to be healed completely, or simply incapacitated healing long enough where they can't protect themselves from that lethal blow. You act as if none of the radiants fighting all those fuzed care when they are starting to wrack up all those wounds and damage. They are far more mortal than you seem to want to pretend.

How many Radiants have died since the series started?

Seven, now if we exclude the almost Radiants that barely could draw Stormlight we have three.

Three in over a year of fighting, now if we take out the one that was killed while unconsious we have two, two Radiants in over a year, who actually died in combat.

Very mortal.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

I think you may have missed my edit on the dexterity and speed, or if you didn't, what did you think?

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

again, how do Mistborn beat Radiants, they are increadibly fast, magical tanks that deal infinate dam

Hmm. I don't think it's not a close fight regardless, but I'll play. "How do Radiants beat Mistborn, they are incredibly fast, super agile, and they also have an infinite damage weapon that can kill them no matter what if they hit them with it". Oh, and just to make sure of it, with atium can even see what the opponent is going to do. And land that hit, 1000% out of 1000. And I don't even have to resort to that latter argument, while true.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Rise up a wall, turn the stone beneath them to liquid until they sink under and turn it solid an leave them for dead, you don't nead the ability to make new thunderclasts

"Turn the stone beneath them to liquid", I believe I made the point when you first brought up stonewards, in my first response about it 'any smart mistborn, upon knowing the powers of the radiants, will be HOVERING IN THE AIR starting any confrontation with a stonewarden. How are they going to be sinking? Do they not know mistborns can fly, or did they forget? Also, rising up a wall? A little less creative than the coming out of the floor or jumping through a wall already in place like I expect a smart stoneward would try and do, which is why I suggested a smart mistborn would already be countering that. And I don't believe I said they were trying to make thunderclasts, just 'rock monster', but you can also add that to the tally of things stonewards cannot do, because I've already started that list in this thread.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Renarin jumps off buildings onto his head sveral times without a scratch

when has anyone in plate died solely from a fall

Well either Adolin or Dalinar was at one point worried about the concept of falling over, and it seemed adolin correctly judged it could end up killing eshonai, who had the upper hand on him the entire time. But few people just fall, so I don't see we will ever know that much. But since it has done at least massive damage every time (like how it finished off Gavilar, and largely damaged the rest of his armor more), I don't see much difference. Those 3 shardbearers that Szeth killed? That one lashing that was the main way to kill the one could be something similar to a fall. In reverse, instead of him being the one falling into something bad, it fell into him. Not quite the same, but I don't see how that shifts the point here.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Even if you shatter the plate that won't kill them, but you no longer have any pewter and are going to die.

So if getting hit by a shardhammer a couple times cracks, getting hit by it with the force magnified by a thousand.... Does nothing more than shatter that plate?

Not sure where you are going with this. Unless you think no attack possible can break shardplate and punch through it all in one go. But attacks have already done that. In fact, a dirty style of fighting in the arena was to mortally wound, or cripple people you didn't like, by gaming a certain sort of strike on a weakened plate section, that would puncture through and hurt them before the fight could be called upon the removal of the plate section. There is always a breaking point for everything. Even a point where the force coming through cannot simply be deflected from a shattering plate. Now if you think the force hitting a plate that would shatter if it was a hundred times less strong just goes away? Not sure what to think about that. Other than that makes no sense at all.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How many Radiants have died since the series started?

Seven, now if we exclude the almost Radiants that barely could draw Stormlight we have three.

Three in over a year of fighting, now if we take out the one that was killed while unconsious we have two, two Radiants in over a year, who actually died in combat.

Very mortal.

And how many Mistborns died in the three books we got? 5? Possibly? Idk, it is about the same number.

Without factoring in a lot more, like how in neither one of them, was there a great deal of them being put in harms way on screen (or the book equivelent of that), most such things are rare.

Now also factor in the idea that in battles and desolations, we often had apparently had entire orders, where there were hundreds, largely decimated in the aftermath, if we are to believe the visions. Oh wait, I am going to assume back in those ancient days, those ancient radiants were all headshotted, cleanly, blasted open and their skulls crushed! Oh yes, that was probably it. Now it makes more sense. In fact, heralds, a good deal more stronger, seemed to usually die in a bit of a number as well, until that last desolation, when they got 'lucky' and only one died. But in the end, that turned out really lucky. But that is neither here nor there.

The point is: they aren't nearly as immortal as you claim, even if only a handful died in the books so far in the current era.

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar

Frustration · March 24, 2021

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

I think you may have missed my edit on the dexterity and speed, or if you didn't, what did you think?

I did, I still had the page open from before you did that.

2 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

EDIT:

I read it the first time and understood, but for some reason going back through while writing I missed it. This was about reflexes, wasn't it? No, I do not believe they are better than a thug with only stormlight, nor even on par with them. Maybe in plate they finally beat them. But vs a mistborn? Who has enhanced tin senses to help guide them? Who usually constantly trains vs others who shoot very, very fast projectiles at them? Flying in the air in such ways that make them constantly have to shift their weight in ways far more complex than simply shifting gravity, and learning to be so graceful as to stun a room between just two mistborns? There are like three metals feeding off each other more than just pewter that together, makes an agility package unlike anything I think any shardplate even can compete against. The only time I think it becomes comparable, or maybe even bested, is when we talk about the friction surge of the edgedancers for instance, properly trained. But even then I admitted this in my discussion on where and how they beat even them, but it is more about their air power then, and gaming against their friction via their other metals (like pushing and pulling on metals, tripping their set friction parameters, like how Lift fails, but a lot more direct, and controlled sabotage). In general, no, I don't believe for one second that a radiant is anywhere near as dextrous, and fast as a mistborn, properly trained, weaving in between attacks in combat, etc. It just goes super next level if you add in Atium, and then it's game over.

On the contrary every time we get a detailed description of Stormlight's effects it talks about the urge to move, it's enhancement of reflexes, Plate is even more extreme, Dalinar is able to cross what seems to be large areas in the space of ten accelerated heartbeats.

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Hmm. I don't think it's not a close fight regardless, but I'll play. "How do Radiants beat Mistborn, they are incredibly fast, super agile, and they also have an infinite damage weapon that can kill them no matter what if they hit them with it". Oh, and just to make sure of it, with atium can even see what the opponent is going to do. And land that hit, 1000% out of 1000. And I don't even have to resort to that latter argument, while true.

Given that it would take 2-3 bullets in the same spot to break plate Duralumin-steel is at best a two hit kill. Just about every Radiant Order is faster than Mistborn

and to top that off all you need to do to become immune to Atium is hang out around a corrupted Truthwatcher.

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

"Turn the stone beneath them to liquid", I believe I made the point when you first brought up stonewards, in my first response about it 'any smart mistborn, upon knowing the powers of the radiants, will be HOVERING IN THE AIR starting any confrontation with a stonewarden. How are they going to be sinking? Do they not know mistborns can fly, or did they forget? Also, rising up a wall? A little less creative than the coming out of the floor or jumping through a wall already in place like I expect a smart stoneward would try and do, which is why I suggested a smart mistborn would already be countering that. And I don't believe I said they were trying to make thunderclasts, just 'rock monster', but you can also add that to the tally of things stonewards cannot do, because I've already started that list in this thread.

It doesn't matter if they are flying, sink the coin in stone, and they will fall in.

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

So if getting hit by a shardhammer a couple times cracks, getting hit by it with the force magnified by a thousand.... Does nothing more than shatter that plate?

The amount of pewter you would have to consume to get to thousands of time strength is unreal, Druralumin+pewter is roughly equal to the strength on Shardplate normally, maybe a bit better depending on how much you had, but thousands of times power is an unreal amount.

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Not sure where you are going with this. Unless you think no attack possible can break shardplate and punch through it all in one go. But attacks have already done that. In fact, a dirty style of fighting in the arena was to mortally wound, or cripple people you didn't like, by gaming a certain sort of strike on a weakened plate section, that would puncture through and hurt them before the fight could be called upon the removal of the plate section. There is always a breaking point for everything. Even a point where the force coming through cannot simply be deflected from a shattering plate. Now if you think the force hitting a plate that would shatter if it was a hundred times less strong just goes away? Not sure what to think about that. Other than that makes no sense at all.

we have yet to see an attack both break and go through plate, I won't rule it out as impossible, just outside of anything a MIstborn is capable of producing under normal circumstances.

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

And how many Mistborns died in the three books we got? 5? Possibly? Idk, it is about the same number.

Seven, actually but that isn't the point, they didn't spend a year in continuous combat, against an opponent that outnumbers them 1,000 to one.

50 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Now also factor in the idea that in battles and desolations, we often had apparently had entire orders, where there were hundreds, largely decimated in the aftermath, if we are to believe the visions. Oh wait, I am going to assume back in those ancient days, those ancient radiants were all headshotted, cleanly, blasted open and their skulls crushed! Oh yes, that was probably it. Now it makes more sense. In fact, heralds, a good deal more stronger, seemed to usually die in a bit of a number as well, until that last desolation, when they got 'lucky' and only one died. But in the end, that turned out really lucky. But that is neither here nor there.

The point is: they aren't nearly as immortal as you claim, even if only a handful died in the books so far in the current era.

Unmade and Thunderclasts are the answers I'd give you, that and mobbing them en mass.

Honestly it's become a problem for me while reading SA, none of the characters feel like they are in dnager, they keep surviving more and more ludicous things, I have no fear of any of them dying.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Frustration

The Technovore · March 24, 2021

37 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

I believe I made the point when you first brought up stonewards, in my first response about it 'any smart mistborn, upon knowing the powers of the radiants, will be HOVERING IN THE AIR starting any confrontation with a stonewarden. How are they going to be sinking? Do they not know mistborns can fly, or did they forget?

I love the potency of this friendly debate, and I'm enjoying the contest of points, I hope you and @Frustration (and all the others reading and participating :D) are as well.

I want to address this, because there's an important distinction to make. Mistborn don't fly. They push and pull on metal, and when pushing on metal below them, they can "fly", which is really more "being shoved into the air". It takes some real control and effort to float only a little in the air, since that requires a balancing of pushing just enough. They also rely on anchors not getting messed with. How would they sink? Well, if the stone turns to liquid and their coin sinks into it, that will either mess with the Mistborn's anchor, or remove it completely. They're pretty vulnerable to anchor manipulation when the floor is undulating and rippling. It'd also be bad for them if the "Soulcasting at range" Radiants just start poofing coins to smoke underneath them.

Now, if I were a Mistborn on an open battlefield in Roshar, I'd completely litter the battlefield with coins, that way I'd always have an anchor somewhere to keep my mobility. However a Stoneward or Willshaper would definitely be keeping me on my toes, any anchors I have near them would be quickly disappearing or moving. I wouldn't want to approach one on foot or relying on a coin or five. I'd probably just go for a Durasteel bullet or if I'm from Era 2 Scad, an actual bullet. (A bunch of actual bullets. Like tons. Maybe explosive ammo.)

Now, if this fight was happening on Scadrial, in a town where I have anchorpoints everywhere and many of the buildings are wood instead of stone, it'd be a different story. Mistborn are far more mobile in urban environments, and the Radiants would have a hard time getting away from me. On Scad a Gravitation Radiant would be my biggest threat, as they'd be just as mobile as me, and have obstacles to disappear behind and potentially take me by surprise.

I wonder how a combat-oriented Lightweaver would fare against a Mistborn. By Oath 4 or 5, would their illusions be able to produce sound? I could see being very intimidated as a Mistborn being surrounded by a dozen copies of the Lightweaver, all holding sprenblades, and I don't know which one is real. Soulcasting would be real threat to, even if they couldn't just target the air I breathe, they could splash down blankets of oil, make my anchors disappear, soulcast me into stone or metal, even just a small soulcast under my feet could make me lose my footing just enough for them to get a sprenblade through my neck.

AirsickAviar · March 24, 2021

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

On the contrary every time we get a detailed description of Stormlight's effects it talks about the urge to move, it's enhancement of reflexes, Plate is even more extreme, Dalinar is able to cross what seems to be large areas in the space of ten accelerated heartbeats.

Pure forward motion, with assisted power and strength, yeah, they can move fast in shardplate. More speed than pure agility, but it is still part of the puzzle. They have the urge to move. Yeah, still not impressed. In terms of accuracy, Vin ended up trying to learn, and perfecting movement on floating on pin pricks, from Zane, who had the agility control to not move, at a perfect position in gravity, find it, on nothing but a single coin, almost like walking. As these mistborns pushed themselves, they could do things that only with their agility could they do, and they have ways to force their balance and body to a degree that shardplate, simply can't practice, even if the body movements would have more power to jump faster. They have combat feats, no one I can see has matched, from flying down through stairwells, around the outside, to over the floor of a fortification, while fighting some 30 guys (knowing they can kill, so not like these shardplate wars where they can tank everything, no, she was dodging, far more impressive in agility in the overall package), while then simultanouesly pulling on metal from various points, in that one battle where she ended up massacring some like thousand people in like 10 minutes. Granted, Zane did help clear some other floors. But she was hauling, moving at speeds around obstacles, between floors, and attacks, that if it was just the way Dalinar or Kaladin's "had an urge to move" in combat was described, I think she would have died if she was moving that slow. Granted, she was next level, but her potential was still low compared to a full mistborn like Elend, and when they start to come back (I think they will at some point), they will have her stories to really practice and take all of this to the next level. No, you are not going to win this point here I don't think. So many different fights, where we can see all the things they can do with their body in movement. Things they HAVE to do to survive, something that Kaladin and the rest have much less to worry about.

It should be noticed, a non-full metalborn, but a twinborn in Wax, is doing things like flying about, and mid-air having the concentration to shoot guns out of people's hands, and does a lot of the same amazing things that Vin, Zane did. Maybe neither of them have the inhuman marksmanship down, guns didn't exist. But a huge amount of the same style showcasing of simple impossibilities with agility in combat in combinations of flying, coinshot movements with precision (that is always the key for them), are there. It seems to be a thing with them, and with Vin and Zane, they have the Pewter and Tin to help with the metalsight and pushing/pulling body precision of center as well. It just all gels, and we have enough different sources from different users of it, where anything short of Dalinar jumping outside, running at different angles around between 10 attackers, while launching absolutely stellar distant attacks, and close ones is going to cut if for me. No, they do not have the agility. They might possibly have better straightforward speed from leg power, and that is only in some circumstances. But that isn't the whole package of how much better I feel a full mistborn is in potential to them. Some orders might get it closer, like 3 to 4, with either gravity lashings or friction alteration. But I still feel in general, they are simply outclassed in the ability to simply exist in motion, dodging everything, hitting everything, aka - the upper reaches of dexterous combat maneuverability. I understand it isn't "everything" in that last hyperbolic sentence, as not everything can be, but it is the closest I have seen it to perfect anywhere in the Cosmere, and sometimes better sword training would have done more where the combat speed was more than there.

Oh, and btw, when they need pure speed, when top speed actually matters, Vin traveled from the Fadrex to Luthadel, in a much shorter span of time shorter than Kaladin took from the Scattered Plains to 90 miles out of his hometown. Now the distance though, that we need to calculate. It's not like they both can't travel large distances in a heartbeat.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Given that it would take 2-3 bullets in the same spot to break plate Duralumin-steel is at best a two hit kill. Just about every Radiant Order is faster than Mistborn

and to top that off all you need to do to become immune to Atium is hang out around a corrupted Truthwatcher.

Oh, that's all? Hang around the one guy in the world who can prevent atium from giving them the victory? Not even going to bother to respond to that one, I think just bringing up the question is enough, unless you don't. Anyway, why does it take 2-3 bullets at best to kill? Ok, we have confirmation, in the books of the stormlight archives, it takes 2, or 3 strikes of a shardhammer to BREAK plate. We know it isn't special metal, or a special hammer, other than it was simply made super heavy and strong that only a shardbearer could wield it. We also know that it takes about 2 guys to lift the thing. All of this we know. We also know that pewter flairing, with 3x strength, that should be more than enough to still even be agile with it. And with practice, probably even easier.

So, now as a benchpad for the basics, fighting with basic forms, without any dura pushes, if they let them hit, we can see easily a mistborn should be able to break plate with three swings? That might even get them the victory vs an untrained noob radiant, but it would be hard as heck. But now I want to take this a step further.

What do we know of Pewter? It can last hours, giving 2 or 3x the strength, depending on the flairing. That is through all the time you burn it. It isn't like tin, which can burn like 6 to 10 hours iirc, I may have my exact specifics off, but close enough.

What do we know of Duralamin? It takes all the power of the store of metals in you, and releases it all at once, in a moment, with all of the power it has. So, for every second you were a few times stronger than you were. For the period of HOURS. It multiplies. How much do you think it takes to make that ridiculously high? And keep in mind, it will only take at max, about what, 3 swings, something super low, to actually break it? Granted, thousands might be a wild estimate, but even if it is more likely in the hundreds, it is still FAAAAR more than anyone would ever need to break plate, and it would be overkill enough to pound you right through.

None of these facts are really contestable. It is how the magic, the metals, the plate, the shardhammer, everything, has been described, in all of their books. It is how these things should work, when brought together, by a mistborn who knew that they were going to have to be fighting radiants, and decided to have such a hammer made, and practiced with it, should be doing. Just because mistborns haven't need to ever use such an overkill use of duralamen towards a single point target in the past with a hammer, only means they never had to face something like shardbearers to force themself to have to learn to use their powers and abilities in ways to actually damage them. Like, really f them up. Because that is what the power we are talking about should add up to. Vin did something similar, and exploded a man's skull. Completely via unarmed means, without even applying that much effort, it was the dura+pewter strength. I don't even remember seeing shardplate do that, even when hitting unarmed foes, which we have seen. Now, could you imagine if a mistborn like that, was holding a shardhammer when that happened, and hit ANYONE with it? Much more, focused on a single point, with full force, and not a sweeping attack? Maybe no one else in this thread imagined it, but I almost immediately saw the possibilities with it. One hitting a shardbearer should be easy.

And no, it would not take an absurd amount of Pewter. Just enough to have a normal load, that would normally last you hours. Like, not even a vial. And then a little bit of dura.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

It doesn't matter if they are flying, sink the coin in stone, and they will fall in.

What does that matter? In this world, I imagine this fictional fight is going to be in the future from this story, when they get to start seeing each other in these worlds in force. The next line of mistborns are undoubtedly going to know ALL about Vin, her story, and how she used her powers in really good ways.

You do realize, she figured out how to use pulls and pushes to actually STAY afloat, and never hit the ground? With only 2 or 3 rotating horseshoes? Elend figured out the same thing in a few hours, but ended up using coins iirc (not horseshoes, I remember that for sure, but he was looking for them). Neither the horseshoes nor the mistborn ever touches the ground.

That might as well be true flight, it might be magnetic cylindrical action, of pulling on one, pushing the other out, pushing on the other at an angle, then throwing the back one now forward, and repeat, but it is controlled, just as surely as a jet aircraft engine. That is flight, and so is that. This isn't the guided hopping they started with. Unending, controlled flight, and it doesn't matter what ANYONE does by making the ground liquid. Because they WOULD NOT have to touch it. These are the mistborns they will face in almost all certainty in the future.

I think people discounting the ability to actually fly now probably are more trapped in the thinking of pure coinshots or era2. It's been awhile since we had a true mistborn, one that can both pull and push. You need to be able to do both to then avoid the ground as your anchor point. And then simply practice for a few hours, and then you can then master moving all of your anchor points till you can fly at hundreds of miles an hour with all your anchors coming with you across the country

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

we have yet to see an attack both break and go through plate, I won't rule it out as impossible, just outside of anything a MIstborn is capable of producing under normal circumstances

But it makes sense, both from a story standpoint and a mathematics standpoint from a basic level, knowing the attacks, powers and values. This is the if they were never seen dying in a black hole, they are to be assumed to be black hole proof argument. #Facts. #RadientsAreTougherThanABlackHole.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Unmade and Thunderclasts are the answers I'd give you, that and mobbing them en mass.

Honestly it's become a problem for me while reading SA, none of the characters feel like they are in dnager, they keep surviving more and more ludicous things, I have no fear of any of them dying.

Or maybe that they are all more mortal as a concept of the descriptions of their powers, but most of the characters have unending plot armor for what SHOULD kill a person who normally would have killed them with their powers? I can think of a number of times that happened.

It wouldn't make logical sense for them to fear the fuzed at all if they were all as nigh indestructible as you claim. They might as well all march and take back the Alethic capital in force at this point, if you can't kill them by anything but the supernatural means of smashing their helmet and crashing their skulls. That makes no story sense though, so I assume they aren't nearly so powerful, which I think is the reasonable thing we should do.

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

want to address this, because there's an important distinction to make. Mistborn don't fly. They push and pull on metal, and when pushing on metal below them, they can "fly", which is really more "being shoved into the air". It takes some real control and effort to float only a little in the air, since that requires a balancing of pushing just enough. They also rely on anchors not getting messed with. How would they sink? Well, if the stone turns to liquid and their coin sinks into it, that will either mess with the Mistborn's anchor, or remove it completely. They're pretty vulnerable to anchor manipulation when the floor is undulating and rippling. It'd also be bad for them if the "Soulcasting at range" Radiants just start poofing coins to smoke underneath them.

No, they have true flight at this point. Read my last reply to @Frustration for my rational. By the time such a fight like this is likely to happen for me, I would also imagine these mistborns would be practiced in the ways of Vin, the legend. And probably by a newer infusion of pure mistborn lines, if I had to guess.

They would have the same flight that you could call any jet aircraft from having, not relying on the ground at all.

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar
Added response to @Technovore, 2nd Edit, Had a thought to add to Dexterity Argument

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

Recommended Posts

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

wheelbarrow

Stormgate

The Technovore

Posted Images

Bigmikey357 he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

The Technovore he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

The Technovore he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

Bejarden he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

Bejarden he/him

The Technovore he/him

Bigmikey357 he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

The Technovore he/him

Bejarden he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

The Technovore he/him

AirsickAviar he/him

Recently Browsing 0 members