Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Oltux72 Please don't respond like that, it makes it a little hard to follow your points.

I used the wrong term again, but by "remove" I mean remove in the same way that Leaching does. For the other examples stormlight is no longer where it was, but is still part of the physical realm, even if it is just incorporated into Chiri-Chiri's stomach. The examples you give, the stormlight is still present or incorporated into something else. With metals though, the metal is gone. And as Khriss knows about Leaching, but sees anti-stormlight as something unique, the effects of leaching on stormlight can't be the same as the effects of leaching on metals.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Again though, what do you think of how the scenes are described? And why do you think the one is more restricted than the other, unable to be targeted?

 

Let us say you are right. That doesn't undermine my main point. I will say this again, and please address this point: I am using the term Hazekiller to refer to someone who doesn't have any internal abilities, but who can use equipment, regardless of the equipment's power source. A Hazekiller - again, defined as someone who isn't metalborn, can't bind a surge with their own innate abilities, has no Breath, etc. - can, alone or as part of a team, stand up to someone who is metalborn, or can bind a surge with their own innate abilities, or has Breath, etc.All side points to this are irrelevant: whether someone is using a gun that fires bullets via conventional means, or they have a gun that using investiture, someone who is trained to use equipment but can't access investiture within themselves can indeed stand up to someone who can provided they are well trained, and well equipped, and in a team. I find it still to think that future Hazekiller squads - again, remember my broad use of that term - on Scadrial or Roshar or anywhere else, won't make use of their own portable leaching cubes or suppression systems.

I would say that using any form of invested art would make them not a Hazekiller, but that is just me, I'm sure some people would consider them as Hazekillers, but I wouldn't, because otherwise awakeners could be Hazekillers

Quote

Are you indicating that you believe all connections are the same?

Yes, the only difference is what they are connecting

Quote

Brandon had to think before answering if a duralumin compounder could break into a Kandra. That implies pure connection manipulation wasn't on his mind at the time as the necessary component. I am not saying Kandra can't be broken into this way, I'm saying the only example Brandon agreed could work was using the metallic arts. You could well be right, and anyone with connection manipulation could take control of a Kandra. I just think that feels ineligant and implies Sazed is sending out highly suggestible people into the Cosmere to be his agents, and it doesn't acknowledge the possibility that there is more nuance involved than simply controlling connection.

There are thoushands more fans than there are Dragonsteel, we are going to have more questions than they have thought of.

Spoiler

Yet Kaladin didn't go into a coma when first facing the device used as Hearthstone. That is clearly a secondary features, something added on - those are not related. Indeed, it also implies that a Leacher could not only prevent a Radiant from using their abilities, but actively deprive them of Stormlight afterwards. Consider, even if - and I don't think this is the case, but let us suppose it is - a Leacher bomb targets everyone indiscriminatorially. Then the metalborn need only ingest more metal and continue after the effect is switched off, while the Knights would have lost all their reserves. I don't think the effect would have to be targeting both, but if it did then it would be to the metalborn's advantage.

Stormlight is different from metal, and I don't think we've seen an example of something just remove stormlight aside from anti-stormlight. Thus the effect of leaching could well be the exact same as the effect of suppression, only acting on different fuel sources.

Kaladin is not a good case study, with his whole son of Tanavast thing.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I would say that using any form of invested art would make them not a Hazekiller, but that is just me, I'm sure some people would consider them as Hazekillers, but I wouldn't, because otherwise awakeners could be Hazekillers

Fair enough :-) though I think it is very likely that Brandon

• will keep the term Hazekiller for anti-invested individual teams (and probably used across the Cosmere just like Fabrial will be used for all investiture based devices), and
• will have as part of their standard equipment leaching/suppressing technology

And I think those will likely continue to be employed, and employed effectively, both against those who are native to their world, and against those form other worlds.

 

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, the only difference is what they are connecting

Perhaps, though that does seem like saying you can store your connection to someone you hate, thus starting to feel neutral towards them, then tap it to make someone else fall in love with you, or to tap it to increase your connection to Autonomy, etc.

[Edit] or store your connection to the planet and tap it for one of the above, etc.

 

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There are thoushands more fans than there are Dragonsteel, we are going to have more questions than they have thought of.

Fully agreed :-)

 

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin is not a good case study, with his whole son of Tanavast thing.

Perhaps, though again we have to work with the data we have. It also seems that most of Kaladin's interactions with the suppression systems were determined by how close he was to the fourth oath, as the other windrunners likewise were more resistant. That doesn't address the issue though with leaching and stormlight's potential interactions however.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Ixthos

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Perhaps, though that does seem like saying you can store your connection to someone you hate, thus starting to feel neutral towards them, then tap it to make someone else fall in love with you, or to tap it to increase your connection to Autonomy, etc.

[Edit] or store your connection to the planet and tap it for one of the above, etc.

That is what the connection is to, but you don't have a specific "duralumin connection"

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is what the connection is to, but you don't have a specific "duralumin connection"

Yet you need to store food and drinks in different metalminds, even though you can store both. Connection is connection, but it seems likely that each type of connection is distinct and can't be swapped with another type.

[Frustration]

33 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Yet you need to store food and drinks in different metalminds, even though you can store both. Connection is connection, but it seems likely that each type of connection is distinct and can't be swapped with another type.

Feruchemy is not the only source of Connection,

Bondsmiths make connections, reguardless of the things connected

Edited March 15, 2021 by Frustration

[Bejarden he/him]

There is an Aon for connection although the Coppermind doesn’t know for what.

And Hemolurgy has connection manipulation 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Feruchemy is not the only source of Connection,

Bondsmiths make connections, reguardless of the things connected

Yes, but the point remains - a chef can make different types of meals, but each meal is still distinct from the others. Bondsmiths manipulate connection, but that doesn't mean they can use one type of connection as another type.

 

[Edit]

8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

There is an Aon for connection although the Coppermind doesn’t know for what.

And Hemolurgy has connection manipulation 

Indeed, connection is an important part of realmatic theory.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Ixthos

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

Yes, but the point remains - a chef can make different types of meals, but each meal is still distinct from the others. Bondsmiths manipulate connection, but that doesn't mean they can use one type of connection as another type.

I think we are looking at this differently,

you see a pot and knife and say you can't use one of them to do the work of the other, while I'm calling them both iron.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Frustration said:

I think we are looking at this differently,

you see a pot and knife and say you can't use one of them to do the work of the other, while I'm calling them both iron.

Agreed. In fact I was debating asking what your main point was, as it seemed we were arguing over the same thing. The question then becomes, is the issue about what separates a pot from a knife, or about the properties of iron?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@BenduLuke

Honestly I was only arguing about the efficacy of your scenario.  I don't believe it could even happen,  much less if it actually did and the results of such a confrontation.  I mean your agent isn't even equipped with about the closest thing to an 'I Wing button as Scadrial can make use of. Atium.  So if dude goes in with no knowledge of Radiant abilities and no way to heal from injury he dies. If he knows anything about Radiant abilities he would not fight the Skybreaker in that manner.  Aluminum armor may stop the Shardblade from cutting but it won't stop the momentum of a guy in power armor striking someone with a 6 ft unbreakable stick. I think you are unrealistically boosting Scadrial's advantages while discounting Roshar's completely.  But it's whatever.  As far as the scenario,  if you're looking for a Cosmere valid reason for it to occur then there already is one in the text.  The Ghostbloods.  And they already know the ground and the combatants.  They could certainly whip up a hazekiller type of squad to kill individual Radiants or, more likely,  put a Radiant in a situation where their powers are useless.  And you left out the one real advantage Scadrial has over Roshar.  The Scadrian agents will be Cosmere aware while the Rosharans are not.

@Frustration

I believe that your definition of hazekillers isn't complete enough.  The one gunning for Kelsier may not have had Allomancers in it, it has been awhile since I last read Mistborn, but the squads sent after Vin certainly had invested users. The full definition should be a group of people who use tools and/or techniques to counter powerful Invested Arts users. Excluding say a Thug from a hazekiller squad going up against a Mistborn because he has powers would be incredibly stupid in my opinion.  If I had access to such a person I'm definitely putting him in my squad.  It increases my survival chances. 

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 

I believe that your definition of hazekillers isn't complete enough.  The one gunning for Kelsier may not have had Allomancers in it, it has been awhile since I last read Mistborn, but the squads sent after Vin certainly had invested users. The full definition should be a group of people who use tools and/or techniques to counter powerful Invested Arts users. Excluding say a Thug from a hazekiller squad going up against a Mistborn because he has powers would be incredibly stupid in my opinion.  If I had access to such a person I'm definitely putting him in my squad.  It increases my survival chances. 

That is what a Hazekiller is, an invested individual can still attack other invested individual, but a Hazekiller is a normal person.

it is the actual definition for Hazekillers

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hazekiller

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@Frustration

I read the definition on the coppermind, thank you for providing it. Still I read in the text kill squads with integrated allomancers attacking our protagonists.  That's why I feel the definition is not broad enough.  Either the kill squads with various mistings in it are hazekillers or they aren't.  If they aren't then what would you call them?

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Frustration

I read the definition on the coppermind, thank you for providing it. Still I read in the text kill squads with integrated allomancers attacking our protagonists.  That's why I feel the definition is not broad enough.  Either the kill squads with various mistings in it are hazekillers or they aren't.  If they aren't then what would you call them?

Kill squads.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@Frustration

Not that I know why we're off on this tangent but here goes. For you, all hazekiller squads are kill squads but not all kill squads are hazekiller squads.  Kill squads that employ invested individuals are not hazekillers even when those individuals use the same tactics.  For me, that distinction is functionally irrelevant since the purpose is to kill or at least defend against a magic user much too powerful for one person to handle. I'd call a group of 10 Mistborn a hazekiller squad if they were fighting a Fullborn. But this probably has nothing at all to do with the topic so feel free to think as you wish. 

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Frustration

Not that I know why we're off on this tangent but here goes. For you, all hazekiller squads are kill squads but not all kill squads are hazekiller squads.

Exactly, all Rapiers are swords, but not all swords are Rapiers.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

17 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I used the wrong term again, but by "remove" I mean remove in the same way that Leaching does. For the other examples stormlight is no longer where it was, but is still part of the physical realm, even if it is just incorporated into Chiri-Chiri's stomach.

But removing Stormlight in that sense is trivial. Just exhale. It vanishes by itself. The hard part is getting it out of something that wants to keep it.

17 hours ago, Ixthos said:

The examples you give, the stormlight is still present or incorporated into something else. With metals though, the metal is gone. And as Khriss knows about Leaching, but sees anti-stormlight as something unique, the effects of leaching on stormlight can't be the same as the effects of leaching on metals.

It is unique. A Leecher cannot make things explode or affect static Investiture. No matter how much he leeches you, you stay a Metalborn or Radiant. Raboniel showed us that you can erase the thing that makes a Fused a Fused with antilight.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But removing Stormlight in that sense is trivial. Just exhale. It vanishes by itself. The hard part is getting it out of something that wants to keep it.

It is unique. A Leecher cannot make things explode or affect static Investiture. No matter how much he leeches you, you stay a Metalborn or Radiant. Raboniel showed us that you can erase the thing that makes a Fused a Fused with antilight.

Lets put it this way - what would happen if a Leecher touched a spren? We know that Leecher's powers affect across systems, as shown when Nicki Savage touched Nazh's gun, so what would happen to a spren, remembering that spren are stated to be made out of light (with Rosharan spren being made of stormlight (though some should really be made from a mixture of stormlight and lifelight) and voidspren made of voidlight). My assumption is that nothing would happen to them, they wouldn't evaporate - would you agree? So what would happen if a Leecher touched a stormlight sphere? Would the sphere loose its stormlight, or would the stormlight remain?

Also, with regards to stormlight evaporating, we don't know if the stormlight returns to the spiritual realm, or if it just loses cohesion, and so it still is present in the physical realm but spread out. In short, we know the stormlight goes away, but we can't say it goes away the same way that leeched metal goes away.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 16.3.2021 at 11:02 AM, Ixthos said:

Lets put it this way - what would happen if a Leecher touched a spren? We know that Leecher's powers affect across systems, as shown when Nicki Savage touched Nazh's gun, so what would happen to a spren, remembering that spren are stated to be made out of light (with Rosharan spren being made of stormlight (though some should really be made from a mixture of stormlight and lifelight) and voidspren made of voidlight). My assumption is that nothing would happen to them, they wouldn't evaporate - would you agree? So what would happen if a Leecher touched a stormlight sphere? Would the sphere loose its stormlight, or would the stormlight remain?

Spren are made out of Investiture. Whether it can still be called Light is a question of definition. They are affected by antilight. So yes, they'd presumably react to leeching like a feruchemical store.

But you are making the argument that Leechers and supressor fabrials are different. Stormlight and Spren in gems behave differently. For one, the Stormlight leaks out. Secondly is always active Investiture. If you inhale Stormlight, you will feel the effects. In fact it will heal you whether you want it to or not.

On 16.3.2021 at 11:02 AM, Ixthos said:

Also, with regards to stormlight evaporating, we don't know if the stormlight returns to the spiritual realm, or if it just loses cohesion, and so it still is present in the physical realm but spread out. In short, we know the stormlight goes away, but we can't say it goes away the same way that leeched metal goes away.

In that case Roshar would have been pumped full with Investiture for millenia. That hypothesis has tremendous problems.

[BenduLuke he/him]

On 3/13/2021 at 3:07 PM, Frustration said:

The fact that one tone blocks all of a shards invested arts, you argue that each pulse would have it's own tone, but that's like saying you would have to use anti-rhythms, tones are greater.

The Hazekillers had no specifically designed tech, just fight patterns, and Roshar has had two-thoushand years to develop anti shardbearer tactics, but those are no one man, or even eight man opperable.

You are confusing copper, with brass, copper is memories, not heat. Copper and Nicrocil store descrete things, once stored you no longer have them, instead of temporarily not having them.

Aluminum touching plate would not make it cease functioning.

Try that argument again when we can make FTL communication.

If there is an anti adolnalsium tone then there is a tone that blocks all investiture otherwise you are in need of at least 16 different anti tones.

Hazekillers do have specific tech and techniques. Roshar's anti shardbearer techniques are medievally based until RoW and now we may start to see more advanced tactics, but not weapons yet.

Sorry yeah I got Copper and brass mixed. You would need a different Nicrosil metalmind for each invested ability or source just like you need a different Tin metalmind for each sense. It is the Fering that determines what ability is stored not the invested source. Nocrosil is a metalmind that can store just about anything and the ferring decides which attribute or investure within their access to store and how.

I can see I wasn't clear about what I said about aluminum. the incendiary aluminum bullets don't just touch the shardplate. Even if the bullet itself doesn't penetrate directly the high temperatures of the incendiary chemicals do and those same chemicals also produce temperatures to ignite the aluminum. So the armor, and the knight are pierced by the aluminum and it is burning as well. Both being pierced by aluminum (hemalugically removes all investiture) and burning aluminum (alchemically neutralizes investiture) would be both disabling and potentially deadly to a KR. To make sure decapitation through a produced gap in the armor with an aluminum alloy blade would finish the job.

Right now no one has FTL and we cannot be sure even spanreeds communicate faster than light so definitely table the idea of FTL communication.

On 3/13/2021 at 3:18 PM, The Technovore said:

Different =! Deficient. The Cosmere is a universe that is being governed by multiple sets of laws, Investiture changes everything because it provides easy access to actual mathematical Infinity. The laws of thermodynamics need not apply. Their direction of development is moving toward the exploitation of Shardic power for the betterment of humanity. Roshar having stormlight in place of electricity or mechanical devices does not necessarily equate to ignorance in those fields, nor in the fields of physics. Roshar will look alien and strange next to Scad tech, but just because they're operating by different rules doesn't mean they're at a disadvantage. They will in all likelihood be capable of everything Scad is, and just as competent reverse-enging Scad tech as they are at reverse-enging Roshar tech. Even this does not trap them on Roshar, because stormlight is likely going to be able to be carried off-planet. It's the entire plot with the Ghostbloods. 

Investiture only provides an additonal power source the underlying laws of the Cosmere still mirror our own. Even investiture application is limited by the same general laws we have so understanding the underlying physical laws does provide an advantage and more stable technology and Scadrial is much further progressed at this time. So much so that Scadrians could reverse engineer Stormlight tech, but Rosharan's would have great difficulty reverse engineering Scadrian Tech.

On 3/14/2021 at 3:48 AM, therunner said:

Both sources are heavily simplifying (first seems to be targeted at highschoolers and is from 1996 and second is pop-sci), and are presenting information in misleading manner, if you are more knowledgeable than a second year undergrad at university. Einstein himself argued against the concept of relativistic mass (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity#Relativistic_mass_2). This wikipedia article is quite well written and illuminates most misunderstanding of the meaning of those equations, specifically the part on history of the concept of relativistic mass. I have addressed issues with velocity depended mass in gravitating systems in my previous answers, so I shall not repeat my point again, you can look it up. So for fifth time, gravitating mass is not depended on velocity, and your arguments are based on heavily misunderstanding of what the equations say.

To get proper description of gravitational effects of a moving particle you need to go general relativity, special relativity is insufficient (Newton gravity assumes instantaneous effect, in conflict with special relativity). After doing calculations in general relativity you need to take weak field limit to recover something quasi-Newtonian (at this point single gravitational potential is no longer sufficient, and this alone tells you that direct comparison is no longer possible) and then you can get expression for acceleration particle would experience due to gravitational effects of this moving particle. Any effects due to velocity are suppressed by 1/c^2, so to get anything measurable you need to be moving at speed comparable to c. The acceleration would no longer be just along the line connecting the two particles, but would also contain orthogonal terms.

This is due to the fact that proper source of gravitational field is not mass, but stress-energy-momentum tensor, and in off-diagonal terms of this tensor you get effects due to velocity (these effects are sometimes called gravitomagnetic, due to analogy with magnetic field generated by moving charge). Ultimately to then say "mass becomes greater with greater velocity" is incorrect, it would be like saying electrical charge of moving particle is different because its electromagnetic field is different from that of charge at rest. The thing that changes is the produced field, but that field is qualitatively different not quantitatively, and ultimately still depends on the same rest mass/density as the non-moving stress-energy-momentum tensor. I.e. the speed has effects, but does not change mass, and those effects are really complicated.

 

Skybreaker would apply division to air, not soulcasting they do not have access to that, so no understanding of chemistry necessary. If they cannot target the air they could still target the ground.

It is F-Tin that allows storage of different senses, it has nothing to do with A-Tin. So that is power specified for feruchemical tin (just like feruchemical copper is specific in how it can only store discrete things), for feruchemical nicrosil we have no such statements or evidence of being able to split singular investiture (in this example A-Pewter keyed) into different subsets.

Your originally postulated bullets had aluminum on the inside not outside. Also all the elements are lighter and softer than most real life metals, so even if you have thin aluminum layer on the outside (which would again require knowledge of opponents armour) it would be quickly stripped by still hard godmetal (as all it would negate is the "magical component of hardness" and at the moment we do not know how large that is but per WoB shardblade could still go through aluminum unless it was thick enough). The rest would be stopped by now again fully magical armor.

Also if even a thin layer of aluminum was this effective against shardplate, then Roshar would have discovered that long ago. They have easier access to aluminum (they can soulcast it) and had 4 millennia of motivation to find a cost effective way to kill shardbearers. Even ordinary soldiers equipped with some aluminum plated weaponry or armor could make a difference if it provided such advantage as you speculate, and yet they have nothing of the sort, not even the elite forces.

I literally quoted that passage here few days ago, but in case i quote it again:

"Waxillium dropped out of Wayne's bubble of speed and hit real time, the shift jostling him. The next few moment were a blur. He heard the awesome sound of the explosion above - it hit with a wave of force. He released his metalmind and Pushed against the nails in the floor below them, trying to slow himself and Marasi. He didn’t have enough time to do it well. They crashed into the floor of the next story down, and something heavy landed on them, driving the breath from Waxillium’s lungs. There was glaring brightness and a burst of heat. Then it was over. Waxillium lay dazed, ears ringing. "

This is the entire description of their fall from the moment they crash through floor. He does not store weight, he just releases metalminds so he has his usual weight. He does state that he lied on his back and Marasi was on top of him about a page before this, so I was wrong on that. I do agree that Wayne shielded them from explosion. You also once again did not address my point on how it is realistic to fall ~4m without serious injury even without superpowers, so I still maintain that this is not example of increased resistance of injury (as it would go againts what Brandon intended his powers to be).

 

From WoB we know that what A-bronze hears are close to Rhythms, since you can block all Rhythms at once (and different surges do produce different "sounds" as the reaction of voidspren differs), it stands to reason that you can block all metallic arts with one tone (as at the moment all three are now powered by Harmony). So, anti-Harmony suppressors would block all metallic arts (as even feruchemy requires a small amount of power to get going). I do think that in principle already made Hemalurgic constructs would still work, as I do not think they actively need access to Harmony to maintain their function, but this might be wrong.

While Roshar is only developing anti radiant tech now, they had millennia to develop techniques to fight just Shardbearers. The genaral outcome of that is, just die, because even someone with deadplate and deadblade outclasses normal people by so much it is not even funny. They regularly kill tens to hundreds of people in a single battle, Kelsier had trouble with eight trained people. Now imagine just how much more powerful 4th oath Radiant of any order is, with shapeshifting blade and living plate + surges on top of that. I mean shardblades are designed to fight thunderclasts ~12-15 meters tall rock monsters, mistborn would have no chance against that.

The problem is that to them, magic is science. Spren and surges are a part of their world, and so learning to manipulate them to achieve some effect is literally science/engineering. Just because their world has some things in addition to our, does not make science any different. Sure they will probably develop along different trajectories, but that does not mean they will not develop at all. Also I would bet that Rosharan understanding of chemistry will quickly takeover Scadrial, with soulcasting heavily helping them.

I do understand those equations and the Wiki equations are why Relativity and Quantum Physics don't mix. There is not such thing as a state of zero energy, zero mass for any physical object in the universe so any thing accelerated through space toward the speed of light does increase in mass. Yes those were simple explainations but they were also accurate as far as they went.

I never said the Skybreaker soulcast someone else did, but even so increasing O2 to cause a massive failure of the gun powder would require a knowledge of chemistry for when someone does try that argument in context. Even using division on the air to cause it to burn after failing on the armor is a stretch and the direct physical attack is far more likely.

It is the Ferrring that divides the attributes not the metal used when a metal can contain multiple attributes such as Tin or Nicrosil.

The increased resistance to piercing damage is implied as Wax rips through the floor without so much as a scrape on his exposed skin. He is the reason the others avoided that because he cleared the way. Perhaps he even had some of that durability left since he didn't break bones when he landed or Wayne landed on him.

If you could find the anti-harmony tone you could presumably block feruchemy if all feruchemy operates on the same tone, but not necessarily allomancy or hemalurgy since they are from preservation and ruin respectively and so to be totally countered would need the preservation or ruin tones. That all discounts that each metal has its own unique rhythm indicating that there is not one tone, but a full scale of tones to account for. Stormlight is all at the same tonal value and Voidlight is at another. Lyft was affected not because they were corrupting stormlight but were corrupting the Sybling who operates on Sybling light (a combination of stormlight and lifelight), but she would likely have been unaffected by the device that nullified Kal since she operates on Lifelight. Venli will probaly need anti-warlight to be fully nullified.

Counting on Rosharan Fabrials may be premature now that Navani knows it may be ethically bad to imprison Spren so may have to start from scratch to find a more ethically viable way to accomplish the same "tech".

On 3/14/2021 at 8:05 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

Allomancy gets diluted as the bloodline gets further away from the original Mistborns

So eventually there will be no mistborns and very little mistings that will be almost powerless

They are creating Fabrial (for lack of better term) mistborns like that bomb and medallions to combat that

While Radiant will never end

It has been stated there is baseline at which metal arts wont get diluted past which is at the era 2 level of misting, ferring, twinborn.

On 3/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

@BenduLuke

Honestly I was only arguing about the efficacy of your scenario.  I don't believe it could even happen,  much less if it actually did and the results of such a confrontation.  I mean your agent isn't even equipped with about the closest thing to an 'I Wing button as Scadrial can make use of. Atium.  So if dude goes in with no knowledge of Radiant abilities and no way to heal from injury he dies. If he knows anything about Radiant abilities he would not fight the Skybreaker in that manner.  Aluminum armor may stop the Shardblade from cutting but it won't stop the momentum of a guy in power armor striking someone with a 6 ft unbreakable stick. I think you are unrealistically boosting Scadrial's advantages while discounting Roshar's completely.  But it's whatever.  As far as the scenario,  if you're looking for a Cosmere valid reason for it to occur then there already is one in the text.  The Ghostbloods.  And they already know the ground and the combatants.  They could certainly whip up a hazekiller type of squad to kill individual Radiants or, more likely,  put a Radiant in a situation where their powers are useless.  And you left out the one real advantage Scadrial has over Roshar.  The Scadrian agents will be Cosmere aware while the Rosharans are not.

@Frustration

I believe that your definition of hazekillers isn't complete enough.  The one gunning for Kelsier may not have had Allomancers in it, it has been awhile since I last read Mistborn, but the squads sent after Vin certainly had invested users. The full definition should be a group of people who use tools and/or techniques to counter powerful Invested Arts users. Excluding say a Thug from a hazekiller squad going up against a Mistborn because he has powers would be incredibly stupid in my opinion.  If I had access to such a person I'm definitely putting him in my squad.  It increases my survival chances. 

I was only trying to present a scenario that could happen at this time. Rosharan's can't leave Roshar right now. Scadrian's (yes because of the Ghostbloods most likely) could become aware of Roshar's warlike intentions. Scadrial knows the effects of Aluminum on investiture and knows they might need someone with a wide range of physical abilities to send that won't be handicapped by the aluminum directly. (External Aluminum armor and weapons don't affect internal allomancy and feruchemy). Skybreakers are likely on the warlike side, and are KR's so have those advantages common to all KR's thus the antagonist. The Skybreaker never actually hit the armor with their shardblade, they struck the hardened rifle. The agent had feruchemical strenth, speed, healing, resiliance, reflexes, resistance, and alertness from storing alchemical pewter into their metalminds over a period of time as the traveled to Roshar. That would be enough to match and exceed any physical ability a KR might have with potentially some to spare and could be replenished by burning or flaring more pewter for a relatively short period of time thus the protagonist. (Protagonists always get plot armor).

Seriously though feruchemically tapped abilities have been shown to be some of the most extreme abilities in the cosmere for the length of time they last, and when you fill those same abilities alchemically there is an enormous supply to tap either for extended use or instant access or somewhere in-between. Both experienced failure on their initial attack, but the Agent had the versatility in their abilities and armaments to change tactics more quickly and effectively and so prevailed. There was also no tale tale glow to give away that the Agent was invested, but that was all to obvious with the Radiant so the agent knew they needed anti magic tactics and weaponry.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If there is an anti adolnalsium tone then there is a tone that blocks all investiture otherwise you are in need of at least 16 different anti tones.

I have no idea if an anti-Adonalsium would counter everything or not.

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Hazekillers do have specific tech and techniques. Roshar's anti shardbearer techniques are medievally based until RoW and now we may start to see more advanced tactics, but not weapons yet.

What tech did Hazekillers specifically use, I might have forgotten something.

Dalinar's flashbacks show us, retracting ledges and massive balistas+nets used to counter Shardbearers.

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I can see I wasn't clear about what I said about aluminum. the incendiary aluminum bullets don't just touch the shardplate. Even if the bullet itself doesn't penetrate directly the high temperatures of the incendiary chemicals do and those same chemicals also produce temperatures to ignite the aluminum. So the armor, and the knight are pierced by the aluminum and it is burning as well. Both being pierced by aluminum (hemalugically removes all investiture) and burning aluminum (alchemically neutralizes investiture) would be both disabling and potentially deadly to a KR. To make sure decapitation through a produced gap in the armor with an aluminum alloy blade would finish the job.

Only thing is that there isn't a gap, only another plate.

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Right now no one has FTL and we cannot be sure even spanreeds communicate faster than light so definitely table the idea of FTL communication.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rosharans already have an ansible. (reported by Kurkistan)

Spanreeds are, basically, evidence that FTL is possible in the Cosmere. It's not the only example too. (reported by Blightsong)

Footnote: Heavily paraphrased, aggregated from multiple comments.
OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Investiture only provides an additonal power source the underlying laws of the Cosmere still mirror our own. Even investiture application is limited by the same general laws we have so understanding the underlying physical laws does provide an advantage and more stable technology and Scadrial is much further progressed at this time. So much so that Scadrians could reverse engineer Stormlight tech, but Rosharan's would have great difficulty reverse engineering Scadrian Tech.

They are about equal at the moment.

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If you could find the anti-harmony tone you could presumably block feruchemy if all feruchemy operates on the same tone, but not necessarily allomancy or hemalurgy since they are from preservation and ruin respectively and so to be totally countered would need the preservation or ruin tones. That all discounts that each metal has its own unique rhythm indicating that there is not one tone, but a full scale of tones to account for. Stormlight is all at the same tonal value and Voidlight is at another. Lyft was affected not because they were corrupting stormlight but were corrupting the Sybling who operates on Sybling light (a combination of stormlight and lifelight), but she would likely have been unaffected by the device that nullified Kal since she operates on Lifelight. Venli will probaly need anti-warlight to be fully nullified.

Harmony is a different than Ruin+Preservation it is a Shard unto itself.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Counting on Rosharan Fabrials may be premature now that Navani knows it may be ethically bad to imprison Spren so may have to start from scratch to find a more ethically viable way to accomplish the same "tech".

She doesn't seem intrested in changing, and I doubt the rest of the world is either, the Sibling is the only one who has a problem with it.

[BenduLuke he/him]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have no idea if an anti-Adonalsium would counter everything or not.

What tech did Hazekillers specifically use, I might have forgotten something.

Dalinar's flashbacks show us, retracting ledges and massive balistas+nets used to counter Shardbearers.

Only thing is that there isn't a gap, only another plate.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rosharans already have an ansible. (reported by Kurkistan)

Spanreeds are, basically, evidence that FTL is possible in the Cosmere. It's not the only example too. (reported by Blightsong)

Footnote: Heavily paraphrased, aggregated from multiple comments.
OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

They are about equal at the moment.

Harmony is a different than Ruin+Preservation it is a Shard unto itself.

She doesn't seem intrested in changing, and I doubt the rest of the world is either, the Sibling is the only one who has a problem with it.

Ok so spanreeds are potentially ansibles but at the moment the distances they are used at is so small to make no difference.

Of course since Adonalsium is the primary shard that all other come from it might have that effect.

Shields, aluminum, obsidian, glass, flash bangs, Renett ammunition, dueling canes, (perhaps I am forgetting some). All these things imply anti-metalborn tech.

Balistas and nets are medieval tech, repeating firearms and cars are early 20th century tech. Eventually I expect that Roshar will have a more complete physical and chemical understanding then their advances with magic will really take off, but that could be a ways down the road from where we are. They still use pike lines at this point which is very vulnerable to the tactics and weapons of an early 20th century tech.

Even if there is not gap to allow the helmet to move (That seems unlikely) the Aluminum incendiary round would create one and might even eliminate the armor entirely in at least the region it strikes while burning into the flesh beneath the burning metal pierced armor. Consider burning aluminum neutralizes investiture, and anything or anyone pierced by aluminum loses investiture, and Incendiary aluminum containing rounds do both and are hot enough to cause massive and perhaps explosive injury.

We don't know what Navai's ethics will compel her to do, nor do we know what affect the Sybling bond will require of her with regards to fabrials as they are now being prisons for Spren. As things stand she seems to be in a position of cognitive dissonance and will likely need to find some way to ethically acquire spren which might set back and change fabrial creation as a result in the near term. Of course ethically Rosharan's in general have no problem with all forms of slavery. That is one of the fundamental causes of the war they are involved in. It is one of the major ethical levers that Odium is taking advantage of. Odium may be bad but he is also taking advantage of the passion of slaves who have been abused.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Ok so spanreeds are potentially ansibles but at the moment the distances they are used at is so small to make no difference.

Someone on Roshar can instantly give commands to someone on Scadrial, that is huge.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Of course since Adonalsium is the primary shard that all other come from it might have that effect.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Shields, aluminum, obsidian, glass, flash bangs, Renett ammunition, dueling canes, (perhaps I am forgetting some). All these things imply anti-metalborn tech.

First off only the sheilds and the canes have been used by actual Hazekillers.

Second off, both were used by non-Hazekillers so I don't see why that makes Hazekillers so specialised.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Balistas and nets are medieval tech, repeating firearms and cars are early 20th century tech. Eventually I expect that Roshar will have a more complete physical and chemical understanding then their advances with magic will really take off, but that could be a ways down the road from where we are. They still use pike lines at this point which is very vulnerable to the tactics and weapons of an early 20th century tech.

Cars where made in the late nineteenth century, and Roshar already has aircraft so I don't see your point, Fabrials are what we have to judge Roshar by, not their earth tech.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Even if there is not gap to allow the helmet to move (That seems unlikely) the Aluminum incendiary round would create one and might even eliminate the armor entirely in at least the region it strikes while burning into the flesh beneath the burning metal pierced armor. Consider burning aluminum neutralizes investiture, and anything or anyone pierced by aluminum loses investiture, and Incendiary aluminum containing rounds do both and are hot enough to cause massive and perhaps explosive injury.

Coming into contact with Aluminum will not turn off Shardplates durability.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

We don't know what Navai's ethics will compel her to do, nor do we know what affect the Sybling bond will require of her with regards to fabrials as they are now being prisons for Spren. As things stand she seems to be in a position of cognitive dissonance and will likely need to find some way to ethically acquire spren which might set back and change fabrial creation as a result in the near term. Of course ethically Rosharan's in general have no problem with all forms of slavery. That is one of the fundamental causes of the war they are involved in. It is one of the major ethical levers that Odium is taking advantage of. Odium may be bad but he is also taking advantage of the passion of slaves who have been abused.

Roshar will continue to develop fabrials whatever the Sibling thinks, it's not slavery, you can't inslave a cow, you can't enslave oil, that just doesn't make sense.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Frustration

[Bejarden he/him]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Someone on Roshar can instantly give commands to someone on Scadrial, that is huge.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Isn’t there a distance impact like the farther you are away the less it works

So how would that effect a Spanread on a different planet

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Isn’t there a distance impact like the farther you are away the less it works

So how would that effect a Spanread on a different planet

Just use bigger gems.