Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

I suspect that suppressing metalic arts would be much more complicated than suppressing light magic. Just like matter is more complex than energy. Not sure what evidence you think indicates there is an all blocking tone?

The fact that one tone blocks all of a shards invested arts, you argue that each pulse would have it's own tone, but that's like saying you would have to use anti-rhythms, tones are greater.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I suspect that inquistiors would be a major challenge for Radiants and have a good chance of beating almost any Radiants. Scadrian Tech is geared toward combating metalborn which is why 8 people had a chance against Kel. Once exposed I suspect that Scadrian's would develop Anti-Radiant tech as well so regular people would have a chance. Roshar is only just starting to develop anti radiant tech.

The Hazekillers had no specifically designed tech, just fight patterns, and Roshar has had two-thoushand years to develop anti shardbearer tactics, but those are no one man, or even eight man opperable.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Not sure what you mean by your f-Nicrosil and f-copper comment. f-copper could probably store heat from a-pewter as pewter arms are not affected much by cold. A-Pewter seem like a universal internal physical donor, and F-Nicrosil seems like a universal investiture receiver making it the most versatile feruchemical metal of all. F-Tin is a universal sensory receiver.

You are confusing copper, with brass, copper is memories, not heat. Copper and Nicrocil store descrete things, once stored you no longer have them, instead of temporarily not having them.

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum containing projectiles piercing the armor not just touching it which is what the aluminum incendiary projectiles would do and does produce the effect of inhibiting stormlight in the region. I thought that was clear if someone took the time to think about it before responding. Thanks for having me clarify.

Aluminum touching plate would not make it cease functioning.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Fabrials are no replacement for physical technology and the understanding that comes from it so will always be at a disadvantage to Scadrial if they never gain an understanding of the physical universe. Where Scadrians with an understanding of physical science will understand why Fabrials act as they do and will be able to find many ways to reverse engineer it exceed their effects beyond just trapping Spren. By your own argument that Roshar will never have advanced physical tech you have admitted that Roshar will always be at a fundamental disadvantage to Scadrial. It really isn't earth tech since it has a Scadrian magic component.

Try that argument again when we can make FTL communication.

[The Technovore he/him]

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Fabrials are no replacement for physical technology and the understanding that comes from it so will always be at a disadvantage to Scadrial if they never gain an understanding of the physical universe. Where Scadrians with an understanding of physical science will understand why Fabrials act as they do and will be able to find many ways to reverse engineer it exceed their effects beyond just trapping Spren. By your own argument that Roshar will never have advanced physical tech you have admitted that Roshar will always be at a fundamental disadvantage to Scadrial. It really isn't earth tech since it has a Scadrian magic component.

Different =! Deficient. The Cosmere is a universe that is being governed by multiple sets of laws, Investiture changes everything because it provides easy access to actual mathematical Infinity. The laws of thermodynamics need not apply. Their direction of development is moving toward the exploitation of Shardic power for the betterment of humanity. Roshar having stormlight in place of electricity or mechanical devices does not necessarily equate to ignorance in those fields, nor in the fields of physics. Roshar will look alien and strange next to Scad tech, but just because they're operating by different rules doesn't mean they're at a disadvantage. They will in all likelihood be capable of everything Scad is, and just as competent reverse-enging Scad tech as they are at reverse-enging Roshar tech. Even this does not trap them on Roshar, because stormlight is likely going to be able to be carried off-planet. It's the entire plot with the Ghostbloods. 

[therunner he/him]

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

https://www2.lbl.gov/MicroWorlds/teachers/massenergy.pdf Mass, Energy, the Speed of Light— It’s Not Intuitive!

 

https://futurism.com/why-do-objects-increase-in-mass-as-they-get-faster-2 Why do Objects increase in mass as they get faster?

Both sources are heavily simplifying (first seems to be targeted at highschoolers and is from 1996 and second is pop-sci), and are presenting information in misleading manner, if you are more knowledgeable than a second year undergrad at university. Einstein himself argued against the concept of relativistic mass (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity#Relativistic_mass_2). This wikipedia article is quite well written and illuminates most misunderstanding of the meaning of those equations, specifically the part on history of the concept of relativistic mass. I have addressed issues with velocity depended mass in gravitating systems in my previous answers, so I shall not repeat my point again, you can look it up. So for fifth time, gravitating mass is not depended on velocity, and your arguments are based on heavily misunderstanding of what the equations say.

To get proper description of gravitational effects of a moving particle you need to go general relativity, special relativity is insufficient (Newton gravity assumes instantaneous effect, in conflict with special relativity). After doing calculations in general relativity you need to take weak field limit to recover something quasi-Newtonian (at this point single gravitational potential is no longer sufficient, and this alone tells you that direct comparison is no longer possible) and then you can get expression for acceleration particle would experience due to gravitational effects of this moving particle. Any effects due to velocity are suppressed by 1/c^2, so to get anything measurable you need to be moving at speed comparable to c. The acceleration would no longer be just along the line connecting the two particles, but would also contain orthogonal terms.

This is due to the fact that proper source of gravitational field is not mass, but stress-energy-momentum tensor, and in off-diagonal terms of this tensor you get effects due to velocity (these effects are sometimes called gravitomagnetic, due to analogy with magnetic field generated by moving charge). Ultimately to then say "mass becomes greater with greater velocity" is incorrect, it would be like saying electrical charge of moving particle is different because its electromagnetic field is different from that of charge at rest. The thing that changes is the produced field, but that field is qualitatively different not quantitatively, and ultimately still depends on the same rest mass/density as the non-moving stress-energy-momentum tensor. I.e. the speed has effects, but does not change mass, and those effects are really complicated.

 

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

So present a scenario where the Skybreaker sets the air on fire before he gets shot out of the sky and fails in his attempt to set the agent on fire because he didn't initially realize that the Agents armor is resistant to division. It is also unlikely that the chemically ignorant Rosharan would think to soulcast O2 for burning to try and counter the firearms at this time.

Skybreaker would apply division to air, not soulcasting they do not have access to that, so no understanding of chemistry necessary. If they cannot target the air they could still target the ground.

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Pewter allomancy is investiture thus is storeable and since Tin-a can be split so can Pewter-a.

It is F-Tin that allows storage of different senses, it has nothing to do with A-Tin. So that is power specified for feruchemical tin (just like feruchemical copper is specific in how it can only store discrete things), for feruchemical nicrosil we have no such statements or evidence of being able to split singular investiture (in this example A-Pewter keyed) into different subsets.

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum would negate the investiture of the plate at the impact sight as well as the person and these were K-Mg-Al incendiary rounds used to create a breach even with minimal to no gap. In addition the finishing stroke was with a sharpened, hardened, aluminum alloy blade powered by Feruchemically tapped Pewter strength (meaning there was allot available to tap).

Your originally postulated bullets had aluminum on the inside not outside. Also all the elements are lighter and softer than most real life metals, so even if you have thin aluminum layer on the outside (which would again require knowledge of opponents armour) it would be quickly stripped by still hard godmetal (as all it would negate is the "magical component of hardness" and at the moment we do not know how large that is but per WoB shardblade could still go through aluminum unless it was thick enough). The rest would be stopped by now again fully magical armor.

Also if even a thin layer of aluminum was this effective against shardplate, then Roshar would have discovered that long ago. They have easier access to aluminum (they can soulcast it) and had 4 millennia of motivation to find a cost effective way to kill shardbearers. Even ordinary soldiers equipped with some aluminum plated weaponry or armor could make a difference if it provided such advantage as you speculate, and yet they have nothing of the sort, not even the elite forces.

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I just finished AoL again and Wax grabbed Marsai dragging her down with him while tapping massive weight and crashed through the floor then flipping on top of her to shield her while storing weight pushing on floor nails to slow their fall  and finally having a heavy weight land on him which was Wayne who took the brunt of the explosion on his back. Wax is why Marisai wasn't injured and Wayne is why Wax wasn't burned.

I literally quoted that passage here few days ago, but in case i quote it again:

"Waxillium dropped out of Wayne's bubble of speed and hit real time, the shift jostling him. The next few moment were a blur. He heard the awesome sound of the explosion above - it hit with a wave of force. He released his metalmind and Pushed against the nails in the floor below them, trying to slow himself and Marasi. He didn’t have enough time to do it well. They crashed into the floor of the next story down, and something heavy landed on them, driving the breath from Waxillium’s lungs. There was glaring brightness and a burst of heat. Then it was over. Waxillium lay dazed, ears ringing. "

This is the entire description of their fall from the moment they crash through floor. He does not store weight, he just releases metalminds so he has his usual weight. He does state that he lied on his back and Marasi was on top of him about a page before this, so I was wrong on that. I do agree that Wayne shielded them from explosion. You also once again did not address my point on how it is realistic to fall ~4m without serious injury even without superpowers, so I still maintain that this is not example of increased resistance of injury (as it would go againts what Brandon intended his powers to be).

 

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I suspect that suppressing metalic arts would be much more complicated than suppressing light magic. Just like matter is more complex than energy. Not sure what evidence you think indicates there is an all blocking tone?

From WoB we know that what A-bronze hears are close to Rhythms, since you can block all Rhythms at once (and different surges do produce different "sounds" as the reaction of voidspren differs), it stands to reason that you can block all metallic arts with one tone (as at the moment all three are now powered by Harmony). So, anti-Harmony suppressors would block all metallic arts (as even feruchemy requires a small amount of power to get going). I do think that in principle already made Hemalurgic constructs would still work, as I do not think they actively need access to Harmony to maintain their function, but this might be wrong.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I suspect that inquistiors would be a major challenge for Radiants and have a good chance of beating almost any Radiants. Scadrian Tech is geared toward combating metalborn which is why 8 people had a chance against Kel. Once exposed I suspect that Scadrian's would develop Anti-Radiant tech as well so regular people would have a chance. Roshar is only just starting to develop anti radiant tech.

While Roshar is only developing anti radiant tech now, they had millennia to develop techniques to fight just Shardbearers. The genaral outcome of that is, just die, because even someone with deadplate and deadblade outclasses normal people by so much it is not even funny. They regularly kill tens to hundreds of people in a single battle, Kelsier had trouble with eight trained people. Now imagine just how much more powerful 4th oath Radiant of any order is, with shapeshifting blade and living plate + surges on top of that. I mean shardblades are designed to fight thunderclasts ~12-15 meters tall rock monsters, mistborn would have no chance against that.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Fabrials are no replacement for physical technology and the understanding that comes from it so will always be at a disadvantage to Scadrial if they never gain an understanding of the physical universe. Where Scadrians with an understanding of physical science will understand why Fabrials act as they do and will be able to find many ways to reverse engineer it exceed their effects beyond just trapping Spren. By your own argument that Roshar will never have advanced physical tech you have admitted that Roshar will always be at a fundamental disadvantage to Scadrial. It really isn't earth tech since it has a Scadrian magic component.

The problem is that to them, magic is science. Spren and surges are a part of their world, and so learning to manipulate them to achieve some effect is literally science/engineering. Just because their world has some things in addition to our, does not make science any different. Sure they will probably develop along different trajectories, but that does not mean they will not develop at all. Also I would bet that Rosharan understanding of chemistry will quickly takeover Scadrial, with soulcasting heavily helping them.

Edited March 14, 2021 by therunner
spelling, more on gravity

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12.3.2021 at 2:35 PM, Frustration said:

1. Scandrial is progressing incredibly slowly, so it will take them a longer time than you think to get there.

That may change, however. In fact it applies to the Northerners only and even among them secret groups are more advanced.

On 12.3.2021 at 2:35 PM, Frustration said:

2. Radiants are something Metalborn aren't, replaceable.

As long as they are in small numbers. The number of Metalborn, however, is in principle unlimited. You could go baby farming and breed allomancers and feruchemist. In fact, there is a precedent.

On 12.3.2021 at 2:35 PM, Frustration said:

3. Scandrial's communication is hundreds of times slower than Roshar's so Roshar will be far faster at mobilizing. 

They have radio. It does not really matter all that much.

[Bejarden he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

As long as they are in small numbers. The number of Metalborn, however, is in principle unlimited. You could go baby farming and breed allomancers and feruchemist. In fact, there is a precedent

Allomancy gets diluted as the bloodline gets further away from the original Mistborns

So eventually there will be no mistborns and very little mistings that will be almost powerless

They are creating Fabrial (for lack of better term) mistborns like that bomb and medallions to combat that

While Radiant will never end

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Allomancy gets diluted as the bloodline gets further away from the original Mistborns

So eventually there will be no mistborns and very little mistings that will be almost powerless

If you let the general population and your breeding group interbreed. Well, technically if you keep the offspring of such intercourse within your breeding group.

If you start out with a large enough breeding group, that is not necessary.

[Gisaku75]

51 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Allomancy gets diluted as the bloodline gets further away from the original Mistborns

So eventually there will be no mistborns and very little mistings that will be almost powerless

They are creating Fabrial (for lack of better term) mistborns like that bomb and medallions to combat that

While Radiant will never end

the Radiant will always be a number limited to a few thousand at a time. And once a Radiant is dead the spren has to choose another candidate who has to reach the third sworn to be a threat. And it's not an immediate process. Southern Scadrials have been making medallions for 300 years, for their entire population as a means of survival. It means a production capacity of tens of thousands of medallions. Which means tens of thousands of F-steel soldiers with hours of speed thanks to the compound.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

It would be far easier to switch suppression of the fused to suppresion of Metalic arts, than leaching to suppresion.

Upon what do you base that? Do you believe they use different mechanics?

 

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Eight trained men, could almost defete Kelsier, and since he beat an Inquisitor we can safely say he is in the upper esilons of Mistborn,

However hundreds of men can be cut down by a shardbearer with ease.

Amaram was a third Dahn General and a SoH, it's safe to say that his guard would be the best, and trained to deal with Shardbearers, but Helaran cut through them without blinking.

Just as not every guard employed by a nobleman on Scadrial was a Hazekiller, so to it can't be inferred that Amaram's guards were trained for that, and even if they were remember they are starting to develop half-shards and aluminium based weapons and defences - it likely is that newer techniques and equipment are being developed.

Remember, the people trying to reclaim the Pillar room only lost because the Defeated One was something they had never learnt to counter - that was a team fighting multiple Fused of different varieties. Do you not agree a single Knight would have had difficulty going even half as far as they did against those odds?

 

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

If anyone but a Kandra uses them it will divide the continents, and if a Kandra uses them, they are begging for a BOndsmith to take control of them, and turn them against Scandrial.

I contest this. Originally, when I learnt that Harmony was sending Kandra into the Cosmere, I thought that that would be dangerous with any shard able to seize control, but now I think only Ruin and Allomancy can so strongly affect them - Preservation couldn't control them due to that power being about sealing rifts, while Ruin can because that power is about widening them. It seems likely that the metallic arts are designed to affect that property, but if you are suggesting connection manipulation allows that, are you also saying a Bondsmith could brute-force control of anyone?

Also, the Bands don't have to be used offworld, there are many roles Kandra can have on Scadrial.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I mean shardblades are designed to fight thunderclasts ~12-15 meters tall rock monsters, mistborn would have no chance against that.

Thunderclasts are way larger than that, they were described as Chasmfiends and in RoW we learn that they would stand around halfway up Uririthiru's fourth tier. As each tier is 18 stories, they would be massive.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

As long as they are in small numbers. The number of Metalborn, however, is in principle unlimited. You could go baby farming and breed allomancers and feruchemist. In fact, there is a precedent.

As I have pointed out above, Metalborn works on spiritual genetics, so while you can increase the quantity of Metalborn, you can't choose the metals. And there are a lot of useless powers.

16 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

the Radiant will always be a number limited to a few thousand at a time. And once a Radiant is dead the spren has to choose another candidate who has to reach the third sworn to be a threat. And it's not an immediate process. 

On the contrary, in RoW Kaladin days that they have more Windrunners ready for the Third Ideal, than they have spren to get them there, they could be replaced in hours.

 

@Ixthos, yes, Suppression blocks all of a certain type of Investiture, but Leaching drains all investiture, not blocking.

The problem with saying that Halfshards are evidence of progression of anti-shardbearer tactics, is that it requires magic to use them, and it took two thousand years to develop.

If you could reword your comments on the pillar room, I don't quite understand.

Duralumin compounders could break into a Kandra, and since that is connection, the same thing Bondsmiths are manipulating I extrapolated.

No I don't think Bondsmiths could control anyone, just as Soothers couldn't, but Kandra are not anyone.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Frustration

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@Ixthos, yes, Suppression blocks all of a certain type of Investiture, but Leaching drains all investiture, not blocking.

Why? The scenes were Wax was subjected to the effects of the cube resemble the scene with Kaladin encountering the suppression fabrial. Also, remember how the fabrial affected Syl. If someone were to describe those two scenes to someone else, without saying what is happening, do you not agree they would say they are identical, based on how they are described.

 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The problem with saying that Halfshards are evidence of progression of anti-shardbearer tactics, is that it requires magic to use them, and it took two thousand years to develop.

Irrelevant - that is a technology in the hands of normal individuals which can allow them to counter magic - if the future SWAT teams use technology to counter a Mistborn, would that invalidate it also? And if we discount half-shards, remember gain that they are also starting to develop aluminium based technologies too, and starting to learn of the impact of aluminium on the magic systems.

 

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If you could reword your comments on the pillar room, I don't quite understand.

Ahhh, sorry. It was mainly to demonstrate the idea that a team of normal people can counter a force that the average Knight Radiant would be unable to face alone - that individuals with sufficient training can potentially beat someone with magical powers, even on Roshar. I.e. if we aren't dealing with a Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario, a team of ordinary people fought well against a team of different types of Fused, which themselves would be able to halt or even kill a Knight, therefore a team of well-trained and well-equipped people can counter a single powerful individual if they are sufficiently trained and equipped, whether they are on Roshar or Scadrial.

 

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Duralumin compounders could break into a Kandra, and since that is connection, the same thing Bondsmiths are manipulating I extrapolated.

No I don't think Bondsmiths could control anyone, just as Soothers couldn't, but Kandra are not anyone.

I'm afraid I don't remember the concept of Duralumin compounders being able to do so, if you could provide a link? Also, remember the reason Kandra can be controlled is because the spikes make cracks, and cracks can be used by Ruin regardless of the source - it implies that someone who is insane is also vulnerable, only much less so than a Kandra as Kandra typically have multiple "cracks" due to the spikes. And if the spikes make it special, it also implies that that power has to be linked directly to the metallic arts.

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Why? The scenes were Wax was subjected to the effects of the cube resemble the scene with Kaladin encountering the suppression fabrial. Also, remember how the fabrial affected Syl. If someone were to describe those two scenes to someone else, without saying what is happening, do you not agree they would say they are identical, based on how they are described.

Leaching is more like a Larkin, than suppresion, it drains your power, it doesn't stop you from using it.

25 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Irrelevant - that is a technology in the hands of normal individuals which can allow them to counter magic - if the future SWAT teams use technology to counter a Mistborn, would that invalidate it also? And if we discount half-shards, remember gain that they are also starting to develop aluminium based technologies too, and starting to learn of the impact of aluminium on the magic systems.

If they use magic they aren't Hazekillers.

25 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Ahhh, sorry. It was mainly to demonstrate the idea that a team of normal people can counter a force that the average Knight Radiant would be unable to face alone - that individuals with sufficient training can potentially beat someone with magical powers, even on Roshar. I.e. if we aren't dealing with a Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario, a team of ordinary people fought well against a team of different types of Fused, which themselves would be able to halt or even kill a Knight, therefore a team of well-trained and well-equipped people can counter a single powerful individual if they are sufficiently trained and equipped, whether they are on Roshar or Scadrial.

I don't disagree I just think that Roshar's number is higher.

26 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I'm afraid I don't remember the concept of Duralumin compounders being able to do so, if you could provide a link? Also, remember the reason Kandra can be controlled is because the spikes make cracks, and cracks can be used by Ruin regardless of the source - it implies that someone who is insane is also vulnerable, only much less so than a Kandra as Kandra typically have multiple "cracks" due to the spikes. And if the spikes make it special, it also implies that that power has to be linked directly to the metallic arts.

Here

Spoiler

Dopetruffles

And finally, whether a duralumin compounder could break into a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, possible, yeah.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Frustration said:

Leaching is more like a Larkin, than suppresion, it drains your power, it doesn't stop you from using it.

That doesn't address my point though, that the scenes are almost identical. Indeed, for all we know the two mechanics are fundamentally linked - I can't remember if there was any indication that the Knights knocked out by the field still retained their Stormlight. Either way, it seems to be more an inference than a confirmed fact that they are different, based on all the descriptions seeming to relate them. Yet even if they are different, would you not agree that they are functionally identical from a practical point of view - Scadrians and Rosharan's both possess the technology to shut down the use of powers by their opponents.

 

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If they use magic they aren't Hazekillers.

At which point then does technology stop being technology and start being magic? the Cosmere is designed to show that magic and technology are linked. Does the use of aluminium in something mean it no-longer is technology and is now magic, even if it is an ordinary item made of aluminium? If someone picked up an aluminium tin and used it to cut a Mistborn, have they used magic agains them? And the point isn't that they are using magic, the point is they themselves don't possess magic - they are ordinary people using tools.

 

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't disagree I just think that Roshar's number is higher.

I'm afraid I don't follow? What number do you mean?

 

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Here

  Hide contents

Dopetruffles

And finally, whether a duralumin compounder could break into a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, possible, yeah.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

 

Again though, that is the use of the metallic arts. Perhaps others can use connection to do this, but that still implies that anyone with a cracked soul can be controlled through sufficiently powerful connection, and also it hasn't been shown to be usable by someone who isn't using the metallic arts. I would be interested to know if another shard could take over a Kandra, and also, if a Bondsmith can steal the spren-bond, if a Bondsmith could cut out the middleman and simply steal the powers of anyone around them, negating the need to control a Kandra.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

That doesn't address my point though, that the scenes are almost identical. Indeed, for all we know the two mechanics are fundamentally linked - I can't remember if there was any indication that the Knights knocked out by the field still retained their Stormlight. Either way, it seems to be more an inference than a confirmed fact that they are different, based on all the descriptions seeming to relate them. Yet even if they are different, would you not agree that they are functionally identical from a practical point of view - Scadrians and Rosharan's both possess the technology to shut down the use of powers by their opponents.

But Scadrial, in draining Roshar's power, also drains their own.

20 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

At which point then does technology stop being technology and start being magic? the Cosmere is designed to show that magic and technology are linked. Does the use of aluminium in something mean it no-longer is technology and is now magic, even if it is an ordinary item made of aluminium? If someone picked up an aluminium tin and used it to cut a Mistborn, have they used magic agains them? And the point isn't that they are using magic, the point is they themselves don't possess magic - they are ordinary people using tools.

  Aluminum isn't dependent on a continuous supply of investiture to work.

20 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I'm afraid I don't follow? What number do you mean?

The number of Hazekillers, needed to kill a Radiant, is higher than the number of Hazekillers needed to kill a Mistborn.

21 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Again though, that is the use of the metallic arts. 

It's still just connection

22 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Perhaps others can use connection to do this, but that still implies that anyone with a cracked soul can be controlled through sufficiently powerful connection, and also it hasn't been shown to be usable by someone who isn't using the metallic arts. I would be interested to know if another shard could take over a Kandra, and also, if a Bondsmith can steal the spren-bond, if a Bondsmith could cut out the middleman and simply steal the powers of anyone around them, negating the need to control a Kandra.

Considering even Shards can't control ayone with cracks in their soul I doubt it's possible.

as for the others, I have no idea.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

But Scadrial, in draining Roshar's power, also drains their own.

As Urithiru demonstrated the effects of countermeasures can potentially be targetted - it is likely that leaching can be targetted to those with a specific type of investiture or even a type of connection.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Aluminum isn't dependent on a continuous supply of investiture to work.

Neither are half-shards.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The number of Hazekillers, needed to kill a Radiant, is higher than the number of Hazekillers needed to kill a Mistborn.

That likely depends on equipment and training of both parties. Kelsier could take down large teams of Hazekillers, while less skilled Mistborn likely could be killed by a smaller team. Each requires unique skills to take on, so it isn't clear which is easier to kill yet, or to slow down or push away.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It's still just connection

Considering even Shards can't control ayone with cracks in their soul I doubt it's possible.

as for the others, I have no idea.

Yet it isn't clear if connection alone is required - it could still depend on the "flavour" of that connection.

Who says the shards can't do that? And again, the only shard shown to be able to control someone with a wounded soul - via spikes - is Ruin.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

As Urithiru demonstrated the effects of countermeasures can potentially be targetted - it is likely that leaching can be targetted to those with a specific type of investiture or even a type of connection.

we have yet to see any evidence for Leaching doing that, a leaching cube drains all investiture.

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

Neither are half-shards.

Yes they are, Fabrials need stormlight to function.

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

That likely depends on equipment and training of both parties. Kelsier could take down large teams of Hazekillers, while less skilled Mistborn likely could be killed by a smaller team. Each requires unique skills to take on, so it isn't clear which is easier to kill yet, or to slow down or push away.

Kelsier was almost beaten by eight, not teams.

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

Yet it isn't clear if connection alone is required - it could still depend on the "flavour" of that connection.

Who says the shards can't do that? And again, the only shard shown to be able to control someone with a wounded soul - via spikes - is Ruin.

We have yet to see any kind of "flavor" for connection, so that doesn't change anything.

But allomancy which is of Preservation could break in, so why not other powers? There is no reason for them to only interact that way with one system.

As for Shards, none of them have done that, and If Ruin could Control Spook he would have.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

we have yet to see any evidence for Leaching doing that, a leaching cube drains all investiture.

That is again assuming that leaching is not the same as suppressing, which again I note the scene descriptions imply are identical or related.

 

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes they are, Fabrials need stormlight to function.

Perhaps, perhaps not - singer forms don't require stormlight, and half-shards haven't been shown to require stormlight to produce their effect. Either way, that does not take away from my main point, that individuals with enough training and the right equipment can take on someone with their own invested capabilities, whether or not they use a gun that uses gunpowder or an steel push or surge of gravity. This is my point.

 

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kelsier was almost beaten by eight, not teams.

I misspoke, but my point stands - a large group of Hazekillers - using that term for any team to counter those with access to invested capabilities - can be beaten by a skilled individual, and a less skilled individual can be defeated by a smaller group of Hazekillers.

 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We have yet to see any kind of "flavor" for connection, so that doesn't change anything.

But allomancy which is of Preservation could break in, so why not other powers? There is no reason for them to only interact that way with one system.

As for Shards, none of them have done that, and If Ruin could Control Spook he would have.

We have - those who are bound to a planet, as it is very clearly dependent on being linked to that planet. In another sense, the metallic arts are all connected to one another due to their shared origins, so a duralumin compounder already has a specific connection they potentially can work through. I am not saying this is the case, only that we can't say it isn't.

Note that it is only when used by an Allomancer, not by Preservation itself - Preservation can't widen cracks by themselves, but Mistborn can, who are arguably connected to Ruin due to their ability to burn Atium, and they can't burn other metals of other shards unless they are connected. Also, I will admit my main objection is from the notion that Harmony is sending agents offworld which any shard can just take control of. Either way, it was shown that Preservation can't take control, but Ruin can, because Ruin's power is about widening cracks. Hemalurgy is connected to Ruin, and Mistborn - and arguably Mistings - are likewise connected to Ruin.

Ruin was controlling Spook, but weakly, and wanted to widen the cracks. Ruin was also being blocked by Preservation. And it should be noted that there are some things the shards can't do that others can, as mentioned earlier. Again, most of my objections aren't saying "this is the case", but rather saying "we can't definitely say this is or isn't the case, as their are unique circumstances that aren't being considered."

[Frustration]

46 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

That is again assuming that leaching is not the same as suppressing, which again I note the scene descriptions imply are identical or related.

The fact is that they are functionally different, while I don't think it is impossible to change Leaching to supression, it will be far easier to change supression of one type to supression of another.

48 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Perhaps, perhaps not - singer forms don't require stormlight, and half-shards haven't been shown to require stormlight to produce their effect. Either way, that does not take away from my main point, that individuals with enough training and the right equipment can take on someone with their own invested capabilities, whether or not they use a gun that uses gunpowder or an steel push or surge of gravity. This is my point.

Every Fabrial needs Stormlight, including half-shards.

I'm saying that if they use Magic they can't be Hazekillers.

49 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

We have - those who are bound to a planet, as it is very clearly dependent on being linked to that planet. In another sense, the metallic arts are all connected to one another due to their shared origins, so a duralumin compounder already has a specific connection they potentially can work through. I am not saying this is the case, only that we can't say it isn't.

Being bound to a planet is not evidence of a "type" or "flavor" of connection.

 

50 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Note that it is only when used by an Allomancer, not by Preservation itself - Preservation can't widen cracks by themselves, but Mistborn can, who are arguably connected to Ruin due to their ability to burn Atium, and they can't burn other metals of other shards unless they are connected. Also, I will admit my main objection is from the notion that Harmony is sending agents offworld which any shard can just take control of. Either way, it was shown that Preservation can't take control, but Ruin can, because Ruin's power is about widening cracks. Hemalurgy is connected to Ruin, and Mistborn - and arguably Mistings - are likewise connected to Ruin.

Aviar are almost Identicle to Allomancy, are you saying they can't?

What About Nergoral, who works on the smae principles?

What about emotion Fabrials, could they do it?

There are dozens of ways to do the same thing in the Cosmere, I don't see why this would be the only time there is only one way.

 

[The Technovore he/him]

8 hours ago, Ixthos said:

if a Bondsmith can steal the spren-bond, if a Bondsmith could cut out the middleman and simply steal the powers of anyone around them, negating the need to control a Kandra.

Alright, so from RoW we know that Bondsmiths can steal a spren-bond, as Ishar almost did to Dalinar's bond with the stormfather. It's generally thought that while Bondsmiths have Connection manipulation power, they do not have full Spiritweb manipulation capabilities, because a Spiritweb is Investiture+Identity+Connection. Thus, unfortunately, Bondsmiths just making people magic or taking magic away isn't likely to be a thing from what we know. Bondsmiths might be able to temporarily mess with a magic user's ability to use their powers, perhaps screwing with a Mistborn's Connection so they don't know how to Mistborn and have to start from scratch? But that's my speculation, that might be Identity instead. 

But, there's a lot we don't know, and Shards aren't so limited, for example we know that Odium could've done a LOT to Hoid's Investiture if he'd felt like it/weren't bound to not harm him.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I would just like to point out that hazekillers do use magic. 

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I would just like to point out that hazekillers do use magic. 

When did they?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When did they?

The ironpullers with the breastplate to redirect incoming coins, the pewterarms with dueling canes, tineye and seeker scouts.  Hazekiller squads were conceived to fight Mistborn and often had mistings in their number. While it's possible to have hazekiller squads out there with no metalborn members that's the mark of a very poor house in Era 1. It's an actual plot point in Well of Ascension.  Remember Cett sent a hazekiller squad at Vin prior to him coming to Luthadel? It had all his remaining metalborn in it including his only Mistborn (he posed as a Seeker).

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The ironpullers with the breastplate to redirect incoming coins, the pewterarms with dueling canes, tineye and seeker scouts.  Hazekiller squads were conceived to fight Mistborn and often had mistings in their number. While it's possible to have hazekiller squads out there with no metalborn members that's the mark of a very poor house in Era 1. It's an actual plot point in Well of Ascension.  Remember Cett sent a hazekiller squad at Vin prior to him coming to Luthadel? It had all his remaining metalborn in it including his only Mistborn (he posed as a Seeker).

The ones Kelsier faught in TFE, were from house Venture, the richest house, and if any of them were metalborn they didn't show it.

Hazekillers are specifically, non-allomancers though in the future it will be all non invested people, trained to fight invested individuals

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 hours ago, Ixthos said:

That is again assuming that leaching is not the same as suppressing, which again I note the scene descriptions imply are identical or related.

Your gem stones stay invested under surpression, while a Leecher wipes out your metal reserves. And obviously a Leecher cannot put you into a coma.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

The fact is that they are functionally different, while I don't think it is impossible to change Leaching to supression, it will be far easier to change supression of one type to supression of another.

Again though, what do you think of how the scenes are described? And why do you think the one is more restricted than the other, unable to be targeted?

 

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Every Fabrial needs Stormlight, including half-shards.

I'm saying that if they use Magic they can't be Hazekillers.

Let us say you are right. That doesn't undermine my main point. I will say this again, and please address this point: I am using the term Hazekiller to refer to someone who doesn't have any internal abilities, but who can use equipment, regardless of the equipment's power source. A Hazekiller - again, defined as someone who isn't metalborn, can't bind a surge with their own innate abilities, has no Breath, etc. - can, alone or as part of a team, stand up to someone who is metalborn, or can bind a surge with their own innate abilities, or has Breath, etc.

All side points to this are irrelevant: whether someone is using a gun that fires bullets via conventional means, or they have a gun that using investiture, someone who is trained to use equipment but can't access investiture within themselves can indeed stand up to someone who can provided they are well trained, and well equipped, and in a team. I find it still to think that future Hazekiller squads - again, remember my broad use of that term - on Scadrial or Roshar or anywhere else, won't make use of their own portable leaching cubes or suppression systems.

 

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Being bound to a planet is not evidence of a "type" or "flavor" of connection.

Are you indicating that you believe all connections are the same?

 

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Aviar are almost Identicle to Allomancy, are you saying they can't?

What About Nergoral, who works on the smae principles?

What about emotion Fabrials, could they do it?

There are dozens of ways to do the same thing in the Cosmere, I don't see why this would be the only time there is only one way.

Brandon had to think before answering if a duralumin compounder could break into a Kandra. That implies pure connection manipulation wasn't on his mind at the time as the necessary component. I am not saying Kandra can't be broken into this way, I'm saying the only example Brandon agreed could work was using the metallic arts. You could well be right, and anyone with connection manipulation could take control of a Kandra. I just think that feels ineligant and implies Sazed is sending out highly suggestible people into the Cosmere to be his agents, and it doesn't acknowledge the possibility that there is more nuance involved than simply controlling connection.

 

10 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Alright, so from RoW we know that Bondsmiths can steal a spren-bond, as Ishar almost did to Dalinar's bond with the stormfather. It's generally thought that while Bondsmiths have Connection manipulation power, they do not have full Spiritweb manipulation capabilities, because a Spiritweb is Investiture+Identity+Connection. Thus, unfortunately, Bondsmiths just making people magic or taking magic away isn't likely to be a thing from what we know. Bondsmiths might be able to temporarily mess with a magic user's ability to use their powers, perhaps screwing with a Mistborn's Connection so they don't know how to Mistborn and have to start from scratch? But that's my speculation, that might be Identity instead. 

But, there's a lot we don't know, and Shards aren't so limited, for example we know that Odium could've done a LOT to Hoid's Investiture if he'd felt like it/weren't bound to not harm him.

That does bring up a major part of all these types of debates (the second being a tendency of overgeneralise and say that X will always beat Y), and that is operating on inference. After all, if we had never read Era 2 and were discussing this, then we wouldn't know about Twinborn, time bubbles, medallions, ranged leaching, etc. and we still don't know the different alloys for shardmetals yet. There are a lot of logical things we can conclude, but that doesn't mean we can definitively state something can or can't be done. Which I know defeats the purpose of these types of discussions, but I do think it is important for all of us to have in the back of our minds when discussing these sorts of things.

 

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Your gem stones stay invested under surpression, while a Leecher wipes out your metal reserves. And obviously a Leecher cannot put you into a coma.

Yet Kaladin didn't go into a coma when first facing the device used as Hearthstone. That is clearly a secondary features, something added on - those are not related. Indeed, it also implies that a Leacher could not only prevent a Radiant from using their abilities, but actively deprive them of Stormlight afterwards. Consider, even if - and I don't think this is the case, but let us suppose it is - a Leacher bomb targets everyone indiscriminatorially. Then the metalborn need only ingest more metal and continue after the effect is switched off, while the Knights would have lost all their reserves. I don't think the effect would have to be targeting both, but if it did then it would be to the metalborn's advantage.

Stormlight is different from metal, and I don't think we've seen an example of something just remove stormlight aside from anti-stormlight. Thus the effect of leaching could well be the exact same as the effect of suppression, only acting on different fuel sources.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

36 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Yet Kaladin didn't go into a coma when first facing the device used as Hearthstone. That is clearly a secondary features, something added on

yes

Quote

- those are not related.

no. If it weren't related, the effect would not be limited to Radiants and would not fail on those of a higher oath.

Quote

Indeed, it also implies that a Leacher could not only prevent a Radiant from using their abilities, but actively deprive them of Stormlight afterwards.

Yes

Quote

Consider, even if - and I don't think this is the case, but let us suppose it is - a Leacher bomb targets everyone indiscriminatorially.

It does not. At a minimum, it does not affect itself.

Quote

Then the metalborn need only ingest more metal and continue after the effect is switched off, while the Knights would have lost all their reserves. I don't think the effect would have to be targeting both, but if it did then it would be to the metalborn's advantage.

Yes

Quote

Stormlight is different from metal, and I don't think we've seen an example of something just remove stormlight aside from anti-stormlight.

What?

Out of gems:

• any Radiant inhaling Stormlight
• Chiri-Chiri
• the Arnist method
• a tuning fork
• whatever device used in Elhokar's feast

Out of Radiants:

• Chiri-Chiri
• modified hordelings
• Fused spears

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Hazekillers are specifically, non-allomancers though in the future it will be all non invested people, trained to fight invested individuals

By definition, but not necessity. You could obviously give a Misting the training, you would, if you were a traditionalist, just not call them Hazekillers.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Oltux72
typo