The Iriali (Origins)

[I Am A Fish he/him]

I am growing increasingly frustrated by the slow reveal of the Cosmere, I want it all. Now. Hello there. If you are not currently participating in my treasure hunt, ignore this. If you are,

Why am I saying this? good job! You just found a clue. Here it is: K'x jkffgp enwgu gxgtayjgrg, nkmg yjgrg vjg ktkcnk ctg.  

It's pretty simple. I was working on a theory about the Dawnshards, the Sibling, Ashyn, and how the sleepless tied in, when something caught my eye. It was about the Iriali.

They're not from Roshar.

Now this really shouldn't be a surprise. Human's aren't native to Roshar. And we all know that. The thing is, the Iriali aren't from the Rosharan system either.* For you to understand the tangent I'm about to go on, I recommend reading the coppermind page on the Iriali. It's a long, long tangent. 

The more I looked into this, the more intriguing it seemed. I believe Sanderson has purposefully kept the Iriali's origins very vague. But I would not be stopped. You see these are the kinds of things that get me interested. We know that Iriali be important later on. But the operating word is later. I wanted to know then and there. My search for answers sent me on an hour long search through the Coppermind, and Arcanum. The information I gathered lead me to this conclusion.

The Iriali have lived on three planet's.

And I believe I know which ones.

The first thing that I tipped me off is their religion. This is a HUGE clue. There was one. Who became many. This is really, really obvious. Adonalsium and the Shattering. (Though I believe that it has also been colored by Honor's death, or Autonomy's ability to have avatar's.) Or the In other words I believe the Iriali originate from Yolen. This matches up for four reasons:

1. Their religion was evidently based the shattering, even if some details are wrong
2. There was a reason for them to leave: Fainlife 
3. It has been confirmed that large amounts of humans have left Yolen
4. And the Iriali are gonna play a large part in the space age/ final stage of the Cosmere, a stage I believe will be heavily focused on Yolen

Where they went after Yolen becomes a little less clear. There were four or five candidates in my mind, most likely being Nalthis, and Taldain.

After Yolen it's most likely they went to Nalthis. Once again I have less evidence, but there's still some. 

1. There seems to be a unusually high emphasison color's in Iriali society, Ex: Body painting
2. The returned could have influenced the Iriali's religion
3. The Rirans are near definitely from Nalthis:

Quote

JoyBlu

Evi, in Oathbringer, she uses strange idioms and you mentioned you wanna be on the lookout for people who use strange idioms... Is Evi native to Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes... Her people are related to the Iri, who are not native to Roshar. But she is not Iriali herself. And all the Iriali, they are native to Roshar, people who are born now, even if their people aren't. So Evi-- You can say, right, like, no humans are native to Roshar. But, yes, she was born on Roshar.

JoyBlu

...Would she might have some of the same blood in her that Vivenna and Siri would have?

Brandon Sanderson

Viviena and Siri... Oh, from... Ah, I'll RAFO that.

Given this, and the fact that the Riran's have large cultural ties with the Iriali it seems probable that the Iriali have been to Nalthis at one point. 

But where next? This troubled me for a while, and I thought that I had it down to two: Patji, or Threnody. 

It was Taldain.

This matches up pretty well. 

1. The Iriali and Daysiders look pretty similar, lot's of blond hair, and tan/gold skin 
2. Autonomy has had influence on the Iriali's religion, not a large one but this ruled out threnody

Quote

So the Iriali, their religion, the whole the One breaking themselves into the many to experience the universe. You also have Autonomy breaking themselves into many avatars. So I was wondering is Autonomy connected to the Iriali in any meaningful way.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So are the Iriali connected to Autonomy in a meaningful way? 

I'd say no. I mean they're slightly connected, but in a meaningful way, no, they're not connected.

Autonomy did not start the Iriali religion.

     3. The temperature on the Dayside is similar to the Iriali climate, possibly explaining why they picked to live up north

These are my thoughts on the origins of the Iriali. Please say how stoopid I am below. I apologize for the wall of text.

 

 

 

*Brandon hasn't explicitly said this but he's ruled out Roshar, Ashyn and Braize as possible candidates. The only habitable planets in the system. 

Quote

Questioner

The Long Trail of the Iriali, was one of the first three lands Braize?

Brandon Sanderson

Hehehe. No. Excellent question. 

Quote

Argent

How many waves of human populations have migrated to Roshar? So I'm thinking the Ashynites coming from Ashyn, right? Was that just the only humans that ever came as a population?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on if you count the Iriali?

Argent

That's specifically the one I'm thinking of.

Brandon Sanderson

They came in a separate migration.

Argent

Not from Ashyn?

Brandon Sanderson

Not from Ashyn.

Argent

From whatever the Third Land was.

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by I Used To Be A Fish

[Innovation]

Very interesting. I absolutely agree. 

[+Invocation]

I wondered how long it would take this theory to come back up. It does seem very likely that they've migrated through most of the planets in the cosmere over time (and may be the Ones Above on Patji). 

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

I am growing increasingly frustrated by the slow reveal of the Cosmere, I want it all. Now. 

 

3 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

frustrated

Ah yes, a convert.

3 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

Endowment's death,

Uhm, that never happened.

[Commander Azure]

One thing I'd like to know: How could they tell if a random planet, say, Scadrial is their 5th land or 7th land? Is it just the next planet they get to?

[Honorless he/him]

I had the same thoughts regarding the Iriali originally hailing from Yolen and one of the previous lands in the Long Trail (possibly the most recent one, given said world's proximity) being Nalthis, based on the similarity with the colourful hair and Evi's colour idioms.

[Eternal Khol he/him]

5 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

It has been confirmed that large amounts of humans have left Yolen

Where??

 

 

 

5 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

Their religion was evidently based the shattering, even if some details are wrong

Dont know if you saw this WoB

 

Questioner

Is the Iri religion based on knowledge of the [Shattering], anything like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of, yes.

Questioner

But they don't know it?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't know it, yeah. I would say yes, there are echoes of it. There are more recent events that they don't even quite remember that are more influential.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

5 hours ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

There were four or five candidates in my mind, most likely being Nalthis, and Taldain.

For all we know they couldve been to planets we dont know yet.

its not like they are limited to what we know

 

interesting WoB

Podman36

Did the Iriali have inhuman ancestry at some point in the past?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of human. Most would say yes.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

[Vailima]

This is very interesting! It makes me wonder about the diversity between races all over Roshar, I mean I never looked that deeply into it - But sure, they all look so different, I assumed it was just genetic divergence over the millennia but now I realise I need to look into this much more deeply. 

 

[I Am A Fish he/him]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Uhm, that never happened.

*Facepalm*

Sorry,

you do not want to know how late I stayed up working on this. 

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, Vailima said:

This is very interesting! It makes me wonder about the diversity between races all over Roshar, I mean I never looked that deeply into it - But sure, they all look so different, I assumed it was just genetic divergence over the millennia but now I realise I need to look into this much more deeply. 

 

Some of them aren't even pure human, Herdazian, Natanatan, Horneater, etc.

4 minutes ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

*Facepalm*

Sorry,

you do not want to know how late I stayed up working on this. 

I get it.

[I Am A Fish he/him]

6 hours ago, Commander Azure said:

One thing I'd like to know: How could they tell if a random planet, say, Scadrial is their 5th land or 7th land? Is it just the next planet they get to?

 

4 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

Where??

Dont know if you saw this WoB

 

Questioner

Is the Iri religion based on knowledge of the [Shattering], anything like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of, yes.

Questioner

But they don't know it?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't know it, yeah. I would say yes, there are echoes of it. There are more recent events that they don't even quite remember that are more influential.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

For all we know they couldve been to planets we dont know yet.

its not like they are limited to what we know

 

interesting WoB

Podman36

Did the Iriali have inhuman ancestry at some point in the past?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of human. Most would say yes.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

If there are any WoB about the Iriali, I saw them. I wish I hadn't, but I've seen them all. 

I agree that they could've been to a planet we don't know about, but these match up, really, really well.

My answers are one, possibly the Sho Del*. Two, Parshendi. The Iriali been on Roshar for a while, since at least the desolations. Idk, I guess the returned could count as inhuman? 

 

 

*Don't bother looking them up, all you'll get are RAFO's

[Use the Falchion]

I remember the Shardcast crew talking about this! My quick question would be as to why the Iriali went to Nalthis second, when we know that Nalthis is the closest planet/system outside the Rosharan one. Wouldn't it make more sense to go from Yolen to Taldain, then Nalthis, and then Roshar? Either way, good job OP! 

 

 

[I Am A Fish he/him]

Just now, Use the Falchion said:

I remember the Shardcast crew talking about this! My quick question would be as to why the Iriali went to Nalthis second, when we know that Nalthis is the closest planet/system outside the Rosharan one. Wouldn't it make more sense to go from Yolen to Taldain, then Nalthis, and then Roshar? Either way, good job OP! 

 

 

Honestly both ways could totally work, I picked the way I found most likely. But they could be easily interchangeable.

[Eternal Khol he/him]

Ive thought for a little while that maybe that the Ones Above are the future Iriali

[+Invocation]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:47 AM, Use the Falchion said:

I remember the Shardcast crew talking about this! My quick question would be as to why the Iriali went to Nalthis second, when we know that Nalthis is the closest planet/system outside the Rosharan one. Wouldn't it make more sense to go from Yolen to Taldain, then Nalthis, and then Roshar? Either way, good job OP! 

They may have been moving planets while Taldain's lockdown was happening, where their travel got restricted by Autonomy. 

[I Am A Fish he/him]

3 hours ago, Invocation said:

They may have been moving planets while Taldain's lockdown was happening, where their travel got restricted by Autonomy. 

That was kinda my thinking.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Oh man, well I bet you're stoked now after Lost Metals reveal as well as the recent crazy interlude chapter and Tress. Got more clues about them in a year or two than we got in decades. They seriously get around. 

It's clear like the shin they have kept old knowledge better than the other cultures but it doesn't seem to have warped as much as the isolated shin. Be really cool if they are being sheparded by an as of yet unseen shard like intellect or the survival shard. I wouldn't be surprised if they were on nalthis before, maybe on sel, we dont know how long autonomy has blocked travel to their planet so idk if they've been to taldain)

But with the last two there should be some record of them, roshar got its history & progress nuked by countless desolations, Rashek hit the pause button for a millennia there, but the former two seem to have been consistent for all that time. 

(Kind of crazy to think the two major sharld worlds barely started developing tech and knowledge within the last century or so.. nalthis and sel should be full on sci fi worlds by comparison haha.. Though I guess having Elantrians and gods in power might have led to being stagnant as well..)

But yeah, he's clearly saving the lore for the iriali til era 4, when well discover their whole pilgrimage was to lead up to that big confrontation in dragonsteel.. So just have to wait till like 2043 or so after stormlight 10 and mistborn 13

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

I had always assumed the Iriali had some Elantrian ancestry hence the metallic skin/hair. Or maybe it is the other way around. And that this would be the "inhuman" ancestry and that also is a reason between the similarity in names "Ire" and "Iri". But maybe I should not have assumed all that, sounds like maybe there is still more debate.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

I just listened to the shoemakers interlude chapter on my current graphic audio relisten and id totally forgotten he said the seventh land would be when they rejoined with the One..

Roshar is the fourth land. They leave in era 2, end up in scadrial next during W&W (since that takes place in between book 5-6 of stormlight) tress is way later but we don't know how long it had been, gotta be fairly recent so that would be the sixth land.. so wherever they went next is their final destination. (Also nale is a dick haha that poor dude, especially since he realizes the desolation has begun a few months later) 

Good point! That would make a lot of sense if they originated on Sel. That's the only other culture with predominantly light coloring. 

[boolamoo]

I'm of the opinion the Iriali started in UTol and their religion is based on Virtuosity splintering herself, being more recent than the shattering.

[listerfeend]

So, just my interpretation of things. I've been under the impression that the Iri's "Many from One" kind of religious belief could simultaneously be an echo of the Shattering, as well as a literal interpretation of their creation. The one Shard we have the least amount of information on is "Prudence/Wisdom/Intellect/Whatever the name is that we haven't been given yet". It's my belief that this Shard either completely or partially Splintered themselves, and made the Iriali to go out into the Cosmere and experience all that they can. This belief comes from their myth of "the One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so the One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to the One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One."

In my opinion, the description of the One knowing everything, and having experience with nothing, would align well with the vague description of a Shard with the Intent similar to Wisdom/Prudence. How exactly that all would work is a bit beyond me at the moment, though I suspect that the Shard in question probably didn't completely Splinter, and left at least a small chunk of themself whole, so as to guide the Iri through their Long Trail. If this is true, it seems likely to me that this Shard is either in hiding somewhere, not Invested to a planet, or has taken up residence in some uninhabited planet somewhere, and exists in some kind of "stasis", able to take in the experiences of the individual splinters of themself from afar.

[Keats.The.Listener He, Him]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:03 PM, boolamoo said:

I'm of the opinion the Iriali started in UTol and their religion is based on Virtuosity splintering herself, being more recent than the shattering.

I like the idea of them having been on UTol. The lands could be:

Yolen

UTol

Nalthis

Roshar

Scadrial

Lumar

??? The Grand Apparatus???

[+Child of Hodor]

They started either on Yolen or Taldain is my guess as well. I could see them having been on both. It just makes sense from a Cosmere meta narrative standpoint for Yolen to be the first and the one they return to at the end. Since it feels like that's how the Cosmere is going. Yolen is where it started and people like Khriss say they can't find it so currently in the middle portion of the Cosmere we aren't getting stories set on it (except for tidbits here or there). 

A god being split to pieces fits both Adonalsium and Autonomy. Autonomy fits slightly more because she's doing it on purpose and Adonalsium didn't really want to be torn apart as far as we can tell. But it could be a slight conflation of the two or a misunderstanding. Or an after the fact justification *watches God torn to pieces* "oh, no, you see the thing is he meant to do that."

My favorite idea for the Iriali is that they spent time on Sel and they were the OG Elantrians. The modern Elantrians discovered the city fully built but completely unoccupied. Like everybody up and left. 

Empty Elantris and the Iriali - Cosmere Discussion - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

 

Edited July 10 by Child of Hodor

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

A god being split to pieces fits both Adonalsium and Autonomy. Autonomy fits slightly more because she's doing it on purpose and Adonalsium didn't really want to be torn apart as far as we can tell. But it could be a slight conflation of the two or a misunderstanding. Or an after the fact justification *watches God torn to pieces* "oh, no, you see the thing is he meant to do that."

Those two theories are probably dead already, Iriali's religion is not meaningfully connected to Autonomy, or the Shattering.

Spoiler

Solfor (paraphrased)

So the Iriali, their religion, the whole the One breaking themselves into the many to experience the universe. You also have Autonomy breaking themselves into many avatars. So I was wondering is Autonomy connected to the Iriali in any meaningful way.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So are the Iriali connected to Autonomy in a meaningful way? 

I'd say no. I mean they're slightly connected, but in a meaningful way, no, they're not connected.

Autonomy did not start the Iriali religion.

DragonCon 2019 (Sept. 2, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is the Iri religion based on knowledge of the [Shattering], anything like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of, yes.

Questioner

But they don't know it?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't know it, yeah. I would say yes, there are echoes of it. There are more recent events that they don't even quite remember that are more influential.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

My favorite idea for the Iriali is that they spent time on Sel and they were the OG Elantrians. The modern Elantrians discovered the city fully built but completely unoccupied. Like everybody up and left. 

Empty Elantris and the Iriali - Cosmere Discussion - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

But this? I like this theory. It makes sense and explains why Elantris was abandoned and even why Iriali have golden skin and hair, if they are somewhat similar to silvery Elantrians. Good one! It doesn't necessarily mean Iriali originated on Sel.

[morcey2]

Quote

So, just my interpretation of things. I've been under the impression that the Iri's "Many from One" kind of religious belief could simultaneously be an echo of the Shattering, as well as a literal interpretation of their creation. The one Shard we have the least amount of information on is "Prudence/Wisdom/Intellect/Whatever the name is that we haven't been given yet". It's my belief that this Shard either completely or partially Splintered themselves, and made the Iriali to go out into the Cosmere and experience all that they can. This belief comes from their myth of "the One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so the One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to the One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One."

I have to disagree partially.  I think that Wisdom/Prudence/etc. would have already had many experiences:

Good decisions come from Wisdom.
Wisdom comes from Experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions. 
  (with apologies to Mark Twain.)
Therefore, it can't be Wisdom who is out gaining experiences. 

I personally like the Iriali-built-Elantris theory.   I have no theory as to where they originated, but that was one of their pit-stops. 

Edited July 10 by morcey2