Why Radiants are incredibly overpowered, and Mistborn aren't.

[Frustration]

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ultimately we have only one data point, which is Kaladin, and we know nothing more about struggles of others like Jasnah. Everything we say is equally as likely and until we get more data we won’t know how hard it is.

We have Lopen too, and he didn't struggle with any of his ideals.

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

We have Lopen too, and he didn't struggle with any of his ideals.

He isn't at 4th Ideal.

[Frustration]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He isn't at 4th Ideal.

Yet, and we saw how hard it was for Kaladin to say the third.

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

Yet, and we saw how hard it was for Kaladin to say the third.

And for Teft it wasn't?

[Frustration]

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And for Teft it wasn't?

For Lopen it wasn't.

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Teft didn't swear 4th Ideal, he was close, like Kaladin but didn't say the words. He could have been stuck on it for years if not for his death. He's not an example.

Ehm, he basically summoned Phendora into a Shardblade, something Kalading could not until after swearing 4th Ideal.
And Kaladin was basically as close to 4th as you could get (based on multiple comments).

If Teft was not literally on the verge of swearing the 4th Oath then and there, then there is a big question of why he was able to summon his spren like that.
I mean, throughout the book he repeatedly expressed the sentiment of the Oath to himself (forgiving himself for his parents, for his addictions, and resolving to do better). He was mentally in a good place to swear that Oath and mean it. And even if not on the spot, he clearly would not struggle with it to the extent of Kaladin. 

I mean there is literally this sentence in RoW:

Quote

Teft was forgiven. Teft was forgiven and he was close.

right before he summons Phendora as semi-blade. He is killed like ~20 seconds afterwards.

He forgives himself, he accepts his failures, which seems to be the spirit of the 4th Oath, accepting that there will be failures along the path of trying to protect. Like Kal failed Tien and many others, like Teft failed his parents (in his eyes) and Bridge 4 (in Oathbringer), and himself (with firemoss, also Oathbringer).

If anything for Teft the biggest hurdle was the 3rd Oath, where it took literal invasion of Urithiru for him to get his rust together. (huh, kinda like Kaladin and 4th Oath actually, never noticed that).

Quote

Ultimately we have only one data point, which is Kaladin, and we know nothing more about struggles of others like Jasnah. Everything we say is equally as likely and until we get more data we won’t know how hard it is.

We have limited information on Jasnah, which suggests it is not as difficult.
We have limited information form example of Teft, who per the book was shortly before his dead closer to 4th Oath than Kaladin was (who never managed to summon Syl like that), and clearly did not have the same mental hangups like Kaladin (based on his internal voice in the rest of RoW).

We also have WoBs that most Radiants are not as damaged as our batch, that Radiants can be ready to swear higher Oaths sooner than lower Oaths (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15259), that Radiants could swear Oaths on the spot (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15704). 

All of this suggests that higher Oaths are not necessarily more difficult than lower Oaths, and that Kaladin's struggle with 4th Oath is kind of an outlier.
I mean, most of the Windrunners don't have survivor's guilt and clinical depression, unlike Kal.

Edited August 10, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ehm, he basically summoned Phendora into a Shardblade, something Kalading could not until after swearing 4th Ideal.
And Kaladin was basically as close to 4th as you could get (based on multiple comments).

Teft was still affected by suppressor fabrial and had to be healed by Lift every few hours to stay awake. Because he faced Moash he was able to get closer to 4th Ideal, but he still didn't say the words. And he didn't summon her as a Shardblade, not physically. It was a titanic effort for them to do.

Quote

Moash’s Shardblade met something in the air—a phantom spear shaft, barely coalescing between Teft’s hands—and stopped. It threw sparks, but it stopped. Teft gritted his teeth and held on as Moash finally showed an emotion. Surprise. He stumbled back, his eyes wide.
Teft let go, and Phendorana appeared beside him on the ground, puffing from exertion. He felt sweat trickling down his brow. Manifesting her like that—even a little—had been like trying to push an axehound through a keyhole. He wasn’t certain he, or she, could do it a second time.

 

21 minutes ago, therunner said:

We have limited information on Jasnah, which suggests it is not as difficult.
We have limited information form example of Teft, who per the book was shortly before his dead closer to 4th Oath than Kaladin was (who never managed to summon Syl like that), and clearly did not have the same mental hangups like Kaladin (based on his internal voice in the rest of RoW).

There are around 200 Radiants as of the end of RoW. Only 2 of them are confirmed to be of 4th Ideal, 1 other is dead but was really close to it. That's 1%. Not a lot right now. If it is so easy why it's so low?

24 minutes ago, therunner said:

All of this suggests that higher Oaths are not necessarily more difficult than lower Oaths, and that Kaladin's struggle with 4th Oath is kind of an outlier.

If Kal was an outlier then other Windrunners would reach the 4th ideal before him. None did despite having a full year. If his struggle was so unusual, why didn't others reach it first if they had it so easy? 

Just because someone can swear all oaths at once, doesn't mean most will be like that. 

[Through the Living Elan He/Him]

Doesn’t R-Odium say that whole thing about how everyone will be coming to attack Roshar once they realize how powerful surgebinding is in RoW? 

[Duxredux he/him]

I'll note that if the validity of the Oaths are up to the interpretation of the spren in conjunction with whomever is the arbitrator, generally the Stormfather, then it may have been far easier and more common for Radiants to progress to higher Oaths - when there wasn't a major risk for the spren to become a Deadeye if the Radiant violated the Oaths. For modern spren if the Radiant dies, the spren keeps their mind. For pre-Recreance spren, the death of her Radiant was enough to put Syl in a reaaaally long coma, so it seems that there may have been incentive for the spren to accept higher Oaths more readily to grant greater protection for their Radiant. These days spren probably are more cautious when binding their Radiant to additional Oaths.

I'll also note that near Honor's death, it sounds like he wasn't very picky about whether or not someone could keep an oath when they made it. I'm not great on Rosharan timelines, but between Honor and the Stormfather protecting spren, Oath arbitration may have been more lax pre-Recreance as well..

Edited August 11, 2023 by Duxredux
clarity

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Teft was still affected by suppressor fabrial and had to be healed by Lift every few hours to stay awake. Because he faced Moash he was able to get closer to 4th Ideal, but he still didn't say the words. And he didn't summon her as a Shardblade, not physically. It was a titanic effort for them to do.

And I am saying that had he had a minute more, he would have sworn the Ideal. And that with being so close he would no longer require healing. He was not ready for most of RoW, but he was clearly making his way there, even before facing Moash. Facing Moash was the final push that got him to the point that had he known the Words (or had slightly more time) he could have sworn the Ideal.

And he did summon her as Shardblade, or as close as possible, he used her to stop Honorblade. How would that happen otherwise?

Again, Kaladin was unable to do even that, so in that moment Teft was closer to 4th Ideal than Kaladin ever was up until his suicide attempt, and he clearly did not struggle with it.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

There are around 200 Radiants as of the end of RoW. Only 2 of them are confirmed to be of 4th Ideal, 1 other is dead but was really close to it. That's 1%. Not a lot right now. If it is so easy why it's so low?

I am not saying it is easy, just that it is not as difficult as you are trying to portrait it.

Note that Radiants are publicly a thing for ~2 years only, and they already have 2 people on 4th Oath. I mean, Raboniel is impressed with how quickly they are progressing in Oaths despite having no guidance!

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

If Kal was an outlier then other Windrunners would reach the 4th ideal before him. None did despite having a full year. If his struggle was so unusual, why didn't others reach it first if they had it so easy?

Because they don't know what the Ideal is supposed to be?  You need Intent, and you need to know the words.

Also, Kaladin was the longest on 3rd Oath by several months, there are what ~50 3rd Oath Windrunners, including him and Teft? With many of them being on that Oath for possibly as little as few weeks (we see the one get Shardblade in the first few chapters).  And they don't know what the next Ideal is, they are working blind.

Only 4 Windrunners had been at 3rd Ideal about as long as Kaladin, those being Teft, Drehy and Skar. So we can say that after being on 3rd Oath for roughly a year, about 50% were ready for 4th Ideal. Now, that is most likely biased sample, however it still shows it is more common then you present it as.

Again, Teft shows no hangups Kaladin does, regarding acceptance of failure. The few he has, he lets go off rather quickly. That is what suggests that Kaladin is the outlier, not the rule.

Kaladin swore all his Ideals in high pressure situations (2nd Ideal, facing horde of Listeners; 3rd Ideal, after being nearly killed by Moash protecting Elhokar; 4th Ideal, suicide attempt), but that does not mean that all Windrunners need such motivation to get to that point (Lopen being great counterexample).

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Just because someone can swear all oaths at once, doesn't mean most will be like that. 

I never said that, no need to straw man my argument.

I am just pointing out that there is no evidence of higher Oaths being inherently more difficult to swear.
 

Edited August 11, 2023 by therunner

[PinkPlasma she/her]

 

On 7/9/2020 at 2:15 AM, Frustration said:

So I often come across topics that involve fights between Brandon's magic users and one of the most often talking points is how overpowered Mistborn are. I however have a hard time seeing that especially from the perspective that Stormlight Archive has given me. So I'm going to give a run down on how the two compare, and later an all out comparison from all magic systems.

 

1. Attack

Radiant- Shardblade, enhanced with Plate (Division, Gravitation, Transformation buffs when applicable)

Mistborn-Pewter, Steel, Dur-aluminum

In the offensive category the Radiant takes a huge advantage over their Mistborn counterparts, as most if not all of their attacks are one shot kills, on any non-Radiant, while A Mistborn's best is deadly it just isn't on the same level, Dur-aluminum can get it there but that make it a one time use.

 

2. Defence

Radiant- Shardplate, Shardblade, (Illusion, Tension buffs, when applicable)

Mistborn- Pewter, Steel

While a Radiant can shrug off basically anything a Mistborn is basically a glass cannon, and can only take so much punishment

 

3. Healing

Radiant- Stormlight, (Progression buffs, when applicable) 

Mistborn- Pewter

While A Radiant can basically live through anything as long as they have stormlight, a Mistborn only has a boosted recovery and no regeneration.

 

4.  Sensory 

Radiant- Spren, Stormlight, (Potential Tension/Cohesion buff when applicable)

Mistborn- Tin, Bendalloy, Bronze

Mistborn Actually wins this one being able to get more think time, and greater sensory input as well as an investiture detection.

 

All in all While a good build Mistborn just simply aren't up to the level of punishment a Radiant can dish out, and can't do enough damage of their own to be an effective match up.

i think this is a bit of an unfair comparison frustration. of course a 4th ideal radiant is more powerful than a mistborn. i mean 5th ideal bondsmiths are more powerfull than fullborn to put some perspective on the table. like. fullborns are nuts. they are so many powerscales above a mistborn it's not even funny. but we've generally as a community decided that a group of 5th ideal radiants could probably win against a fullborn, if they played it right and had near infinite investiture.

most comprable to a mistborn is probably a 3rd ideal radiant. the only real flaw that a radiant has, is how it uses investiture. but even this is a pretty small flaw, and hard to exploit without some serious risk. the only other flaw is how long it takes them to reach potential. a recruit mistborn, is infinitly more useful than a recruit radiant. all a recruit radiant is essentially the same as A pewter and F gold(with some obvious differences but functionally similar enough) that is, most definitly. net enough to win against an equally trained mistborn. they will have the advantage in reach, damage, durability, and speed.

a radiant who has gotten to a point where they have plate has some serious experience on the table, and those are pretty few and far between. not only that, but there is a limited number of how many radiants the world can have. there are only so many spren. allomancy doesn't have this problem, it can have as many mistborns as harmony wants. so yes, the radiant is more powerfull in a one on one when both are at their prime, but the effort and difficulty for a radiant to get to their prime is much much harder than some consistent night time training, and a bit of natural skill. difficult enough that in the whole series, we have seen a total of 2 radiants get close to the prime capability. the feasibility of a mistborn makes up for its downfalls when you consider how hard it is to get a hold of a radiant capable of beating them. send a team of mistborn to roshar to take out all the world leaders? nothing the radiants could do about it before it was too late I guarantee you. an army of soldiers where every 10 are mistborn, vs all the radiants?

i mean we haven't even delved into the teamwork potential of mistborn here, thats almost frightening to think about, espicially if we assume that only half of those would be as skilled as kelsier in his prime. and im fairly confident many were more skilled than kelsier in mistborn history, not to mention alll mistborn we've seen were working on half potential. the fact that it's even a debate over weather a mistborn is better than a full radiant makes me frightened for scadrial at war, especially when mistborns aren't the best it can offer. so yes, I agree that 1 on 1, radiants are just definitively better, I think that's probably good, because if they weren't scadrial would by far be the most powerfull planet in the cosmere.

Edited August 11, 2023 by PinkPlasma
making it easier to read, so its not a giant text block lol

[PinkPlasma she/her]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Ehm, he basically summoned Phendora into a Shardblade, something Kalading could not until after swearing 4th Ideal.

i was so confused until i realized it was because of the dampining during the invasion. ToT

I was like "teft summoned a shardblade tons of times, what are they talking about?"

[Notsav95]

 

On 8/11/2023 at 11:11 AM, PinkPlasma said:

i was so confused until i realized it was because of the dampining during the invasion. ToT

I was like "teft summoned a shardblade tons of times, what are they talking about?"

I read it as him being close to his fourth ideal, but it was also a real do or die situation, could have just been a big push. 

On 8/10/2023 at 4:35 PM, Frustration said:

We have Lopen too, and he didn't struggle with any of his ideals.

Tbph he didn't have as much baggage going on as many of the radiants. That being said, remember he's the first one we really see using regeneration outside of Kal and he's one of the last from the original group to get to his third ideal. His cousin gets there before him and it's purely because he doesn't realise how he's harming others unintentionally with his behaviour. 

 

On 8/10/2023 at 4:58 PM, Frustration said:

Yet, and we saw how hard it was for Kaladin to say the third.

As I said above, there was a lot of baggage with Kal in particular with the third oath, it seems to be the case for most of the windrunners. None of the windrunners encounter their ideals by themselves, it comes from the journey they take. Kal is *stubborn* and he's the first one to do it in awhile. You can look at him as a windrunner and go "Okay, in order to meet this ideal I need to find someone or something I hate and see how that relates to me and my other ideals". Teft has to deal with the trauma of his actions leading to his family and village's deaths. Lopen just needs to realise that he's hurting people he likes, instead of lightening up the situation like he thinks he is. Also as said above, he took a fairly long time going from ideal 2 - 3

[Frustration]

On 8/11/2023 at 3:59 AM, PinkPlasma said:

 

i think this is a bit of an unfair comparison frustration. of course a 4th ideal radiant is more powerful than a mistborn. i mean 5th ideal bondsmiths are more powerfull than fullborn to put some perspective on the table. like. fullborns are nuts. they are so many powerscales above a mistborn it's not even funny. but we've generally as a community decided that a group of 5th ideal radiants could probably win against a fullborn, if they played it right and had near infinite investiture.

most comprable to a mistborn is probably a 3rd ideal radiant. the only real flaw that a radiant has, is how it uses investiture. but even this is a pretty small flaw, and hard to exploit without some serious risk. the only other flaw is how long it takes them to reach potential. a recruit mistborn, is infinitly more useful than a recruit radiant. all a recruit radiant is essentially the same as A pewter and F gold(with some obvious differences but functionally similar enough) that is, most definitly. net enough to win against an equally trained mistborn. they will have the advantage in reach, damage, durability, and speed.

No, it is a perfectly fair comparison. An allomancer at full power should be compared to a radiant at full power.

A 3rd oath Radiant would be more comparable to a Mistborn who could only burn 10 metals.

On 8/11/2023 at 3:59 AM, PinkPlasma said:

a radiant who has gotten to a point where they have plate has some serious experience on the table, and those are pretty few and far between. not only that, but there is a limited number of how many radiants the world can have. there are only so many spren. allomancy doesn't have this problem, it can have as many mistborns as harmony wants.

That is not true, The Stormfather can make Honorspren whenever he feels like. And with each subsequent generation Allomancy gets weaker.

On 8/11/2023 at 3:59 AM, PinkPlasma said:

the feasibility of a mistborn makes up for its downfalls when you consider how hard it is to get a hold of a radiant capable of beating them.

Do you know how hard it is to get ahold of a Mistborn at all?

The next confirmed one isn't for another hundred years.

Even during their prime there were maybe a hundred Mistborn.

On 8/11/2023 at 3:59 AM, PinkPlasma said:

an army of soldiers where every 10 are mistborn, vs all the radiants?

That's a really small army.

On 8/11/2023 at 3:59 AM, PinkPlasma said:

the fact that it's even a debate over weather a mistborn is better than a full radiant makes me frightened for scadrial at war, especially when mistborns aren't the best it can offer. so yes, I agree that 1 on 1, radiants are just definitively better, I think that's probably good, because if they weren't scadrial would by far be the most powerfull planet in the cosmere.

Um... No.

Mistings are 1 in 1000.

For each misting Nalthis gets 1000 breath.

For each Mistborn probably close to 100,000.

Nightblood took 1000 breath to make.

And breath do not get collectively weaker, or rely on chance.

Even just by population distribution of magic Scadrial is far weaker than Nalthis.

[Duxredux he/him]

On 8/11/2023 at 0:23 AM, therunner said:

I am just pointing out that there is no evidence of higher Oaths being inherently more difficult to swear.

Would you consider the Skybreaker statistics and views from the past 4500 years noting the plateau at the 3rd Ideal and the rarity of the 5th Ideal as evidence? I'm addressing this concept but directing my thoughts to the thread in general, so no, this mini-essay isn't aimed at you therunner. It's about how the Oaths intrinsically are about self-improvement.

I think there's multiple ways of viewing the concept of the difficulty of a task or lifestyle, and they come from different angles.

Here's one viewpoint. Belief and who a person's contemporaries are have powerful influences on what people achieve. For years a human running a sub 4 minute mile was considered impossible. Despite Olympic athletes training and aiming for it, no one seemed to be able to do it.. it seemed beyond the limits of human will and endurance. Between 1937 and 1945, seven world records were set, the one in 1945 at 4:01.4 which held for nearly a decade. From a purely mechanical standpoint it should have been feasible, yet no one could do it, athletes repeatedly almost breaking 4 minutes but not quite. 9 years later in 1954, Roger Bannister did what many considered impossible and ran a 3:59.4 using other runners to pace himself. His record lasted less than 2 months when he was beaten by John Landy who knew Bannister, knew he was faster than him, and he broke the 1945 record by a full 3.4 seconds. Landy had never been able to break 4 minutes before he heard Bannister had. That 9 year gap is the longest gap in records set for the mile from then up until the current world record which was set in 1999. Notably the previous record set in 1993 was beaten by both the first and second place runners in the same race in 1999, their times are 3:43.13 and 3:43.40 respectively, and they remain the top two fastest mile runs recorded. Considering they finished within 0.27 seconds of each other, I find it plausible that neither would have broken the record had they not been running together.

Brandon has a similar story with the writing group he was in back in his college days. A huge percentage of his group went on to become professionals in the writing industry, if not authors, and he considers it not too surprising that once one person broke out, so many others were able to as well.

Who you are with and what you think is difficult or impossible affects how difficult something is to achieve. It's why what Roger Bannister did was so noteworthy - and it happened in part because he looked at his objective and believed it was possible from a purely mechanical standpoint, prior history not withstanding. It's not that surprising that Bridge Four became the core of the Windrunners considering who they were running with. That said, what Kaladin finds difficult as a Radiant probably will effect what the other Windrunners consider difficult.

From a purely mechanical standpoint yes, it's possible to swear all 5 Ideals in a row, but we're not just talking mechanics, we're also talking about how people and spren perceive the Oaths. I won't discourage people from thinking from a purely mechanical standpoint - it's what let Bannister do what he did and can be a powerful mindset, but dismissing how hard it can be for one person to accomplish something because it was so easy for another - particularly regarding self-change - that can be incredibly damaging.

Another viewpoint. To take the moral from Disney's Ratatouille, not everyone can become a 5-star chef, but a 5-star chef can come from anywhere. Not every Skybreaker is suited to become the embodiment of the Law otherwise there would be far more 5th Ideal Skybreakers flying around, but that isn't to say any given individual Skybreaker couldn't do it. Being a Radiant is a hard lifestyle and not every person who swears the Oaths will want to swear the higher Oaths. Look at how many debates there have been on which power a 17th Shard member would want and how many pass on Radiance.

From a juggling standpoint, Oaths are cumulative, not substitutive. Experts can juggle over a dozen balls, but I have major difficulties going from 2 balls to 3. 5 is impossible for me right now. It's why being a part of two Orders is technically possible but very difficult. Sure, I can throw five balls into the air, but keeping them in the air? Juggling world records are measured not only on quantity of props thrown but also on duration of successful passes. Swearing 5 Ideals in a row is different from living and maintaining all 5 ideals.

I'm sure there are other perspectives, but when talking about the Oaths and their relative difficulty, don't forget to consider that you're also talking about self-change, the permanence of the change, and what that topic means to people.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Duxredux
clarity

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Would you consider the Skybreaker statistics and views from the past 4500 years noting the plateau at the 3rd Ideal and the rarity of the 5th Ideal as evidence? I'm addressing this concept but directing my thoughts to the thread in general, so no, this mini-essay isn't aimed at you therunner. It's about how the Oaths intrinsically are about self-improvement.

 Skybreakers under Nale are not a good sample, as per WoBs they are kinda straying, and they are clearly reverent of Nale to unhealthy degree. Nale himself is insane and cannot be a good guide for other Skybreakers.

What note do we have that most Radiants plateaued at 3rd Ideal? I do not recall such, that however means little.

I would say that 1st Oath and 2nd Oath are somewhat easier, being relatively self-selecting (i.e. 1st to commit to improving oneself towards some Ideal, 2nd to basically pick which path to follow). Then even if only ~10% reach the next stage for each additional Oath, higher Oath will be increasingly rare.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

I think there's multiple ways of viewing the concept of the difficulty of a task or lifestyle, and they come from different angles.

Who you are with and what you think is difficult or impossible affects how difficult something is to achieve. It's why what Roger Bannister did was so noteworthy - and it happened in part because he looked at his objective and believed it was possible from a purely mechanical standpoint, prior history not withstanding. It's not that surprising that Bridge Four became the core of the Windrunners considering who they were running with. That said, what Kaladin finds difficult as a Radiant probably will effect what the other Windrunners consider difficult.

I agree that this is a valid viewpoint and Kaladin even worries that in a sense it might be true (that others are ready but holding back).

However, in this case Kaladin is sort of 'paving the path' he is the first Windrunner in millenia, has no guidance and clinical depression on top of that. Despite that he is on 4th Oath in little over 2 years.

He kind struggled with 3rd Oath, but from what we see that did not go over to his squires. Some had more difficulty than he did (Lopen , Teft especially), others had (seemingly) rather easy time (Huio), but no indication that they believed this to be difficult because of Kaladin.

For 4th Oath, we don't yet have other books, but Teft does not seem to struggle with the ideas behind the 4th Ideal at all, nor does he ever really think about how difficult it would be.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

From a purely mechanical standpoint yes, it's possible to swear all 5 Ideals in a row, but we're not just talking mechanics, we're also talking about how people and spren perceive the Oaths. I won't discourage people from thinking from a purely mechanical standpoint - it's what let Bannister do what he did and can be a powerful mindset, but dismissing how hard it can be for one person to accomplish something because it was so easy for another - particularly regarding self-change - that can be incredibly damaging.

Exactly! We are talking about people and their growth/readiness.

How could some Oaths be generally more difficult if we are talking about mindset, one you are even guided towards?
Some mindsets are surely alien, however 'I can't save everyone/I accept I will fail' are not particularly rare mindsets. Why would it be inherently more difficult to accept you cannot save everyone than to accept you must also save those you don't want? If anything, 3rd oath to me is the one that sounds more difficult.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Another viewpoint. To take the moral from Disney's Ratatouille, not everyone can become a 5-star chef, but a 5-star chef can come from anywhere. Not every Skybreaker is suited to become the embodiment of the Law otherwise there would be far more 5th Ideal Skybreakers flying around, but that isn't to say any given individual Skybreaker couldn't do it.

I would say this is flawed analogy.
Oaths follow one another, someone who would be ready to 'Be law', could be stopped by lower Ideal (e.g. swearing to follow someone/some external thing) and never get there. 5-star chef does not have to follow preset trajectory.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

 Being a Radiant is a hard lifestyle and not every person who swears the Oaths will want to swear the higher Oaths. Look at how many debates there have been on which power a 17th Shard member would want and how many pass on Radiance.

Two points
1) Radiants are self-selecting. They won't 'pass on it' because every single Radiant chose it. You won't be Windrunner unless you want to protect people. Windrunner would not choose to become Skybreaker, but that means very little.
Also, some people here seem to view Oaths as very inflexible, e.g. Windrunner could not attack if there is even a chance innocent would get hurt, which is clearly not the case.

2) Once you are truly ready to swear some Oath (e.g. your mindset is aligned with it) then how could you not want it? Since it is something you believe in.
Sure sometimes you can know it is true and right, and not want to accept it (e.g. Kaladin), but how common are such extreme trauma?

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

From a juggling standpoint, Oaths are cumulative, not substitutive. Experts can juggle over a dozen balls, but I have major difficulties going from 2 balls to 3. 5 is impossible for me right now. It's why being a part of two Orders is technically possible but very difficult. Sure, I can throw five balls into the air, but keeping them in the air? Juggling world records are measured not only on quantity of props thrown but also on duration of successful passes. Swearing 5 Ideals in a row is different from living and maintaining all 5 ideals.

I severely disagree here.

Sometimes they are substitutive, e.g. in Skybreakers. 3rd Ideal overrides the 2nd (they now follow some specific code/person instead of seeking justice). And we know that 5th Ideal will override the 3rd in turn.

Sometimes they are completely independent, like with Truths of Lightweavers. No Oaths to hold there, only knowing oneself.

Sometimes they are cumulative, but they are not independent, like with Windrunners. There 3rd Oath builds upon the 2nd (dedicating yourself to protecting without exception due to personal feelings/blindspots). 4th does not ask you to protect less, but to accept that you are not all powerful and you will fail. Not building on 3rd Ideal, but not exactly conflicting with it either. So not much juggling necessary.
Edgedancers also don't have conflicts that would make maintaining them at the same time difficult. 2nd Ideal: Remember the forgotten. 3rd Ideal: Listen to the ignored.Again, building on top of one another. First you notice/remember those are forgotten, then you listen to those no one is listening to. No juggling to be had.

So I don't think juggling metaphor is suitable, Ideals are related and sometimes override one another.

It is however true that based on Skybreakers and Windrunners, 4th Ideal is the one were Oaths stop directly building on the previous one.
 

Edited August 24, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I think there's multiple ways of viewing the concept of the difficulty of a task or lifestyle, and they come from different angles.

Here's one viewpoint. Belief and who a person's contemporaries are have powerful influences on what people achieve. For years a human running a sub 4 minute mile was considered impossible. Despite Olympic athletes training and aiming for it, no one seemed to be able to do it.. it seemed beyond the limits of human will and endurance. Between 1937 and 1945, seven world records were set, the one in 1945 at 4:01.4 which held for nearly a decade. From a purely mechanical standpoint it should have been feasible, yet no one could do it, athletes repeatedly almost breaking 4 minutes but not quite. 9 years later in 1954, Roger Bannister did what many considered impossible and ran a 3:59.4 using other runners to pace himself. His record lasted less than 2 months when he was beaten by John Landy who knew Bannister, knew he was faster than him, and he broke the 1945 record by a full 3.4 seconds. Landy had never been able to break 4 minutes before he heard Bannister had. That 9 year gap is the longest gap in records set for the mile from then up until the current world record which was set in 1999. Notably the previous record set in 1993 was beaten by both the first and second place runners in the same race in 1999, their times are 3:43.13 and 3:43.40 respectively, and they remain the top two fastest mile runs recorded. Considering they finished within 0.27 seconds of each other, I find it plausible that neither would have broken the record had they not been running together.

Brandon has a similar story with the writing group he was in back in his college days. A huge percentage of his group went on to become professionals in the writing industry, if not authors, and he considers it not too surprising that once one person broke out, so many others were able to as well.

But once one person is able to do it others find it easier, to the point that multiple High Schoolers have run sub 4 miles.

The orders teach their younger members what oathes to say, all they need is for one member to do it.

Now that Kaladin has done it I fully expect others to do it in short order.

 

Not to mention the narrative reason that Kaladin has to be the first one to each new ideal because he's the character we've been following.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

I agree with a lot of this.  While there are strategies an Allomancer can come up with to kill a Surgebinder, I think the base power of any Surgebinder is too hard to ignore. (imo stormlight healing is OP and basically ends the argument itself).  Even the most powerful Allomancer with Atium can’t catch a Windrunner if they fly away, much less if they have living Shardplate on.  
 

I love seeing the creative ideas people come up with for how an Allomancer could win in a fight.  Like I don’t think Shallan is going to beat Vin in a 1v1.  But if we staged 100 random fights, I’d bet money on Radiants winning 75%+.  And that’s assuming many Mistborn do have small amounts of Atium they can use.  Atium could give Mistborn an advantage, but Stormlight healing is OP and could probably outlast it.  

[Saxsoon]

I agree with everything we have seen so far

 

BUT

 

Brandon is going to make a story where these systems mix. I have a feeling that duralumin push right through the spine of plated Radiant is going to kill and shock many of us

Frankly Sanderson is not going to create an intergalactic cosmere war if it is so one sided.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Saxsoon

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

13 hours ago, Saxsoon said:

I agree with everything we have seen so far

 

BUT

 

Brandon is going to make a story where these systems mix. I have a feeling that duralumin push right through the spine of plated Radiant is going to kill and shock many of us

Frankly Sanderson is not going to create an intergalactic cosmere war if it is so one sided.

With the existance of anti light and allomantic grenades I wouldn't be shocked if the future fights of the cosmere are more tech based than power based nearly entirely.  How do you take over a world where they can have tech specifically designed to defend against your magic systems?  

Both sides are going to have access to city, country, potentially world ending investirure fueled nuclear options. 

Future books will likely be more subterfuge and political intrugue than the all-out battles. I forsee a lot of tiptoeing around. 

Some cold war type stuff.  

Both sides have tools for that.  Even if it turns out Roshar has 1 shot potential always vs Scadrials tech. I wouldn't put anything past the people who have discovered making hemalurgic spikes into bullets... whats stopping them from making a leeching bullet or one that triggers some sort of harmonium/trellium explosive tips?  

Roshar can have all the power in the world. Until they can take it off planet and compete with the tech I don't know how they will be able to perform.  

Also don't underestimate the fact that the ghostbloods already have recon going on and most of Roshar is ignorant to what's going on. Kelsier is going to know about antilight before Navani knows what an allomancer is.  

[Frustration]

18 hours ago, Saxsoon said:

Brandon is going to make a story where these systems mix. I have a feeling that duralumin push right through the spine of plated Radiant is going to kill and shock many of us

Lezian showed us how well that worked.

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Lezian showed us how well that worked.

2 stage projectile - aluminum shrapnel with steel part - Mistborn pushes on steel part but it's aluminum that spikes into Radiant's spine - they can't heal that now and can't move at all. 9/10 Radiants don't have reverse lashing to attract non-aluminum parts away from them. This would work with normal steel pushing (not for plated Radiants, 3 stage projectile for that, with something very dense for a tip, with aluminum in between) but requires super precision. But aluminum always works so...

Edited September 11, 2023 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Lezian showed us how well that worked.

Stormlight healing is bonkers. 

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

2 stage projectile - aluminum shrapnel with steel part - Mistborn pushes on steel part but it's aluminum that spikes into Radiant's spine - they can't heal that now and can't move at all. 9/10 Radiants don't have reverse lashing to attract non-aluminum parts away from them. This would work with normal steel pushing (not for plated Radiants, 3 stage projectile for that, with something very dense for a tip, with aluminum in between) but requires super precision. But aluminum always works so...

That is the trick to tech. Any WoB talking about guns vs shardplate, I believe, has been directed at turn of the century ballistics. Fast forward to modern day loads and then combine that with these sorts of ideas and shardplate will not be nearly as busted as it is. Plus, as you pointed out, aluminum stops healing. 

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That is the trick to tech. Any WoB talking about guns vs shardplate, I believe, has been directed at turn of the century ballistics. Fast forward to modern day loads and then combine that with these sorts of ideas and shardplate will not be nearly as busted as it is. Plus, as you pointed out, aluminum stops healing. 

SotD 2 spoilers
 

Spoiler

Shardplate seems to continue to be used, even in combat, to the far future of Cosmere. So while it may not be as busted as now, it is still going to be a good defense.

 

[Duxredux he/him]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:22 AM, therunner said:

SotD 2 spoilers
 

  Hide contents

Shardplate seems to continue to be used, even in combat, to the far future of Cosmere. So while it may not be as busted as now, it is still going to be a good defense.

 

Spoiler

I still think the presence of Shardplate in future eras doesn't necessarily indicate a cap on the power limit of weaponry progression. At least I don't think its future appearance offers justification on how ineffective current and near-future weaponry is against it. There's plenty of reasons to keep using armor and tanks long after the enemy has developed nukes, AP rounds and anti-tank missiles. Especially if said armor gives power assist, is a summonable package deal with your magic powerset, and doesn't interfere with using Surges. It absolutely could be as relatively durable in the future, or could be utterly demolished by future weaponry and still see use as a self-regenerating resource that sometimes doesn't take luggage space.

It probably won't turn out this way, but Surgebinders could end up being the glass cannon wizard class who can't use the best armor because it interferes with their magic, which would be an ironic reversal from their historic role. Shardplate's utility is more than defense.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Duxredux
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