Why Radiants are incredibly overpowered, and Mistborn aren't.

[StanLemon]

42 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Even a glancing blow with Plate can break bones.  But anyway,  Atium is a huge advantage to the Mistborn,  it's just not an instant win against a Stormlight user, especially one with Plate. Even the best case scenario won't kill the Radiant outright, more work would have to be done. And Atium runs out fast. It's going to be quite difficult to hit that kill shot even once.  If you have to make that perfect, one-in-a-million strike multiple times your probability of success is greatly reduced. We're probably talking Vin vs. maybe Shallan as 5 Oath Radiant  as far as combat effective level for that Mistborn to consistently beat the Radiant.  But truth is, most Mistborn are going to be at something like Shan Elarial's level of competency and someone like her is not beating the worst Radiant out there.

The odds are nowhere near that bad. You seem to be forgetting Pewter is a thing that exists for starters. They can take a hit from Plate, sure it will likely hurt a lot but at worst a direct punch would only crack bone and then you are forgetting the manual precision Pewter gives. It would be much much easier for a Mistborn to actually hit the eye slit than you think. Now, you're right, Atium does burn quickly but with future sight they will see the opening to get in close with the dagger. And once the dagger is in there then the Mistborn would be given a huge advantage. Either the Radiant keeps it in there and loses most of his manual control over half his body and is burning through a lot of Stormlight just to stay alive, or he pulls it out and blacks out giving the Mistborn a perfect opportunity to strike again. Additionally, if the Mistborn has Chromium and the Radiant has blacked out then they just need to stick their finger through the eye slit and burn it and bam, dead Radiant.

You overestimate Radiants far too much. They aren't overwhelming juggernauts that can't be beaten. In fact it flies entirely in the face of how Brandon writes his stories to assume they are. Sure Radiants are powerful yes and in most fights they would likely win but it isn't one in a million it would be more like one in 10

Edited July 12, 2020 by StanLemon

[Gisaku75]

But at most the radiant can win a clash out of 2. All orders that cannot fly or do not have ranged attacks have no way of hitting a mistborn that flies on steel. The rest have to deal with the atium. And frankly Sharn Elarias' claim is ridiculous, an incompetent Radian cannot beat a mistborn with years of training. Vin is a genius, she is the chosen one with a level of power above the norm, for this she has won. Renarin would be torn to pieces even by a simple well-trained Pewterman.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

The odds are nowhere near that bad. You seem to be forgetting Pewter is a thing that exists for starters. They can take a hit from Plate, sure it will likely hurt a lot but at worst a direct punch would only crack bone and then you are forgetting the manual precision Pewter gives. It would be much much easier for a Mistborn to actually hit the eye slit than you think.

 

26 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

But at most the radiant can win a clash out of 2. All orders that cannot fly or do not have ranged attacks have no way of hitting a mistborn that flies on steel. The rest have to deal with the atium. And frankly Sharn Elarias' claim is ridiculous, an incompetent Radian cannot beat a mistborn with years of training. Vin is a genius, she is the chosen one with a level of power above the norm, for this she has won. Renarin would be torn to pieces even by a simple well-trained Pewterman.

Adolin had to actively restrain himself to not crush a metal canteen. Dalinar easily picked up head sized rocks in one hand. Shardbarer hammers are regularly bent out of place. Grandbows have to have magic to keep them from snapping. I'm sorry but pewter just doesn't cut it, one direct hit and forget bones, it's going to rupture their organs.

And @Gisaku75 

Renarin has two magic systems and doesn't count(also he has future sight)

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

 

Adolin had to actively restrain himself to not crush a metal canteen. Dalinar easily picked up head sized rocks in one hand. Shardbarer hammers are regularly bent out of place. Grandbows have to have magic to keep them from snapping. I'm sorry but pewter just doesn't cut it, one direct hit and forget bones, it's going to rupture their organs.

Vin regularly mentioned how she handled blows that would shatter bones. Pewter makes you pretty durable

[Frustration]

Just now, StanLemon said:

Vin regularly mentioned how she handled blows that would shatter bones. Pewter makes you pretty durable

Shattering bones, and chrushing metal are two different ball parks, and even if their bones survived, their lungs would pop. 

[StanLemon]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Shattering bones, and chrushing metal are two different ball parks, and even if their bones survived, their lungs would pop. 

There are a multitude of scenes with Pewter burners surviving and keep going after what should be instant death hits. There have also been several scenes showing the weaknesses of Plate. I don't discount that on average Radiants are a lot more powerful, but you seem to have it in your head that they are virtually unstoppable. That's not the case, plenty of reasoning have been given to explain that it is not the case. With the exception of Windrunners and Skybreakers no Order of Knights has the maneuverability to match a Mistborn, Pewter gives a Mistborn near perfect dexterity, balance, and manual precision so they could hit marks that would be too hard for most normal people (such as an eye slit). Their entire fighting style is based around dodging. Bludgeoning has been shown to be very effective against Shardplate as well so if a Mistborn is able to get on a decent sized rock they could crack and break Plate with their Pewter enhanced muscles. The books go out of their way to talk about the weaknesses Plate and Blade have but you seem to try and downplay and ignore them. On top of that, Radiants burn through their store of Investiture faster than Mistborn. They use the same store of power for all of their abilities, they take up more space, the more Stormlight a Radiant sucks in the faster it leaks out. Mistborn on the other hand have a different store for each of their abilities, usually have 2-4 vials on them at any given moment, and can turn off/on their use of Investiture instantly to save metals. 

Yes in most fights between an equally skilled Radiant and Mistborn would likely end in the Radiant's victory, but they are nowhere near impossible for a Mistborn to defeat.

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

There are a multitude of scenes with Pewter burners surviving and keep going after what should be instant death hits. There have also been several scenes showing the weaknesses of Plate.

What weaknesses?

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The books go out of their way to talk about the weaknesses Plate and Blade 

Again what weaknesses? You have put up vauge claims without giving a good enough example to back them up.

23 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Bludgeoning has been shown to be very effective against Shardplate as well so if a Mistborn is able to get on a decent sized rock they could crack and break Plate with their Pewter enhanced muscles. 

 What gets them up on par with massive rocks? Because head sized stones are only mildly effective.

26 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

On top of that, Radiants burn through their store of Investiture faster than Mistborn. They use the same store of power for all of their abilities, they take up more space, the more Stormlight a Radiant sucks in the faster it leaks out. Mistborn on the other hand have a different store for each of their abilities, usually have 2-4 vials on them at any given moment, and can turn off/on their use of Investiture instantly to save metals. 

Your fist good point, but you assume that a Radiant has to take in all their spheres at once, which they don't. And unlike Mistborn they can use it whenever while a Mistborn has to disengage in order to get their other metals.

29 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I don't discount that on average Radiants are a lot more powerful, but you seem to have it in your head that they are virtually unstoppable. That's not the case, plenty of reasoning have been given to explain that it is not the case. With the exception of Windrunners and Skybreakers no Order of Knights has the maneuverability to match a Mistborn, Pewter gives a Mistborn near perfect dexterity, balance, and manual precision so they could hit marks that would be too hard for most normal people (such as an eye slit). 

I don't think a Radiant is invincible, but look at their match ups, Szeth is killing entire armies, and Shardbearers, while Kelisier is almost beaten by eight dudes.

A Mistborn killing a Radiant is in my mind about a one in a hundred.

And as for manuverability

Dustbrinngers and Edgedannces have Abrasion.

Lightweavers and Truthwatchers have Illumination which they can use as cover rendering mobility obsolete.

Elsecallers and Willshapers have Transportation.

Stonewards can make their own portable fortresses and trapps.

And Bondsmiths can just sit and generate Stormlight.

[Dunkum he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Dustbrinngers and Edgedannces have Abrasion.

...

Elsecallers and Willshapers have Transportation.

Abrasion is good, but isnt nearly on the level of steel + iron in the hands of a skilled mistborn, especially if the hypothetical fight is set somewhere like a city or the shattered plains where there are various elevation changes and sheer sides and places to use to anchor coins.  Wax, with just steel, can practically fly, and vin and kelsier do even better in most places.

we don't know all that much about how the transportation surge works.  pretty sure we've only seen it used twice, both times for jumps between physical and cognitive, and never from the persepctive of the person doing it.  without more information, I don't think we can reliably say one way or the other how much it would help.

from what we've seen gravitation is the only surge that we can be sure is a match for iron and steel in terms of mobility. and for what its worth, gravitation is better in the hands of someone practiced with it than steel/iron are.  fewer limitations, more control, and less chance of interference by having someone say destroy the rock formation your coin was pushign on.

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

Abrasion is good, but isnt nearly on the level of steel + iron in the hands of a skilled mistborn, especially if the hypothetical fight is set somewhere like a city or the shattered plains where there are various elevation changes and sheer sides and places to use to anchor coins.  Wax, with just steel, can practically fly, and vin and kelsier do even better in most places.

True

25 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

we don't know all that much about how the transportation surge works.  pretty sure we've only seen it used twice, both times for jumps between physical and cognitive, and never from the persepctive of the person doing it.  without more information, I don't think we can reliably say one way or the other how much it would help.

Jashna got a dude to basically fly in Oathbringer.

26 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

from what we've seen gravitation is the only surge that we can be sure is a match for iron and steel in terms of mobility. and for what its worth, gravitation is better in the hands of someone practiced with it than steel/iron are.  fewer limitations, more control, and less chance of interference by having someone say destroy the rock formation your coin was pushign on.

Not much to say here.

[Dunkum he/him]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Jashna got a dude to basically fly in Oathbringer.

can you point me to that?  I dont remember anything like that happening.  I do remember her soulcasting people left and right.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

What weaknesses?

Again what weaknesses? You have put up vauge claims without giving a good enough example to back them up.

 What gets them up on par with massive rocks? Because head sized stones are only mildly effective.

The Coppermind has a summary on it. The eye slits for one. Also head sized stones cracked undamaged Plate with a single blow, not exactly mildly effective. And cracked Plate leaks Stormlight quickly and is far mor vulnerable to breaking. 

Quote

Your fist good point, but you assume that a Radiant has to take in all their spheres at once, which they don't. And unlike Mistborn they can use it whenever while a Mistborn has to disengage in order to get their other metals.

When has a Mistborn ever needed to disengage to drink a vial? Just a short amount of distance which isn't all that difficult unless they are facing a Windrunner or Skybreaker

Quote

I don't think a Radiant is invincible, but look at their match ups, Szeth is killing entire armies, and Shardbearers, while Kelisier is almost beaten by eight dudes.

Szeth was not killing entire armies, and they knew nothing of his powers. Those eight dudes as you say were specifically trained to fight Allomancers. And as Vin and Zane proved, a Mistborn can slaughter hundreds in minutes too

 

Quote

And as for manuverability

Dustbrinngers and Edgedannces have Abrasion.

So? Does that allow them to make three dimensional movements? No. Can they change direction instantly including reverse? Most likely not.

Quote

Lightweavers and Truthwatchers have Illumination which they can use as cover rendering mobility obsolete.

Bronze

Quote

Elsecallers and Willshapers have Transportation.

And? There is nothing that we've seen about Transportation that indicate quick battle manuverability 

Quote

Stonewards can make their own portable fortresses and trapps.

So the Mistborn just waits and hides themselves 

Quote

And Bondsmiths can just sit and generate Stormlight.

Dalinar only did this in a situation that was explicitly presented as unusual.

Edited July 12, 2020 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

Just now, Dunkum said:

can you point me to that?  I dont remember anything like that happening.  I do remember her soulcasting people left and right.

So I don't have the book on me, but she grabbed a guy and threw him and he just kept going hitting multiple other people and changing them into.... Crystal?

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

The Coppermind has a summary on it. The eye slits fore one. Also head sized stones cracked undamaged Plate with a single blow, not exactly mildly effective. And cracked Plate leaks Stormlight quickly and is far mor vulnerable to breaking. 

Small cracks from one rock and a puff of Stormlight from the joints because of another, not great 

Radiants can fix plate not just leak.

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

When has a Mistborn ever needed to disengage to drink a vial? Just a short amount of distance which isn't all that difficult unless they are facing a Windrunner or Skybreaker

Unless their far enough away that a Radiant can't get to them before they finish, stoping to eat metal is suicide.

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Szeth was not killing entire armies, and they knew nothing of his powers. Those eight dudes as you say were specifically trained to fight Allomancers. 

Hundred of soldiers with half shards, two full shardbarers and a man with blade and half shard counts as an army in my book. I seriously doubt even eight people trained to fight radiants are going to be much trouble for Szeth.

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

So? Does that allow them to make three dimensional movements? No. Can they change direction instantly including reverse? Most likely not.

It's good enough that one of them thought that they where ahead of Szeth.

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Bronze

Unless that shows them specifically where the person is  not the illusion all they have to do is make a bigger illusion.

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And? There is nothing that we've seen about Transportation that indicate quick battle manuverability 

What I said under the first quote.

9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

So the Mistborn just waits and hides themselves 

Not very effective when they can just put you in a box.

9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Dalinar only did this in a situation that was explicitly presented as unusual.

He did it twice and by WoB that is something all of them could do. It's one of the Bondsmiths powers.

[Darkfinder she/her]

 

13 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

can you point me to that?  I dont remember anything like that happening.  I do remember her soulcasting people left and right.

Chapter 120 of Oathbringer I belive.

 

[StanLemon]

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So I don't have the book on me, but she grabbed a guy and threw him and he just kept going hitting multiple other people and changing them into.... Crystal?

Transforming people like that was mostly possible do to the Three Realms being close together, Jasnah herself confirms that.

Quote

Small cracks from one rock and a puff of Stormlight from the joints because of another, not great 

It's still a vulnerability. And once a spot is cracked it has been shown to be almost compromised

Quote

Radiants can fix plate not just leak.

Their is no evidence of this

Quote

Unless their far enough away that a Radiant can't get to them before they finish, stoping to eat metal is suicide.

It's literally just a swig of a vile, takes seconds. Like I said unless they are facing a Skybreaker or Windrunner it's easy. Just float in the are for a second, drink, done.

Quote

Hundred of soldiers with half shards, two full shardbarers and a man with blade and half shard counts as an army in my book. I seriously doubt even eight people trained to fight radiants are going to be much trouble for Szeth.

The half shards were only a few people. He had mobility that none of them had. He was a completely unknown problem to them.

Quote

It's good enough that one of them thought that they where ahead of Szeth.

Didn't really help them

Quote

Unless that shows them specifically where the person is  not the illusion all they have to do is make a bigger illusion.

They can sense the source of Investiture, so yeah

Quote

What I said under the first quote.

Not exactly an example, nothing about that had to do with mobility

Quote

Not very effective when they can just put you in a box.

The closest earthshaping abilities we've seen are making stairs, a far cry from telekinetically molding rock

Quote

He did it twice and by WoB that is something all of them could do. It's one of the Bondsmiths powers.

The Stormfather showed surprise that it happened, clearly indicating no other Bondsmith could do it. And he only recharged them by opening a Perpendicularity. His other feat of supercharging Kaladin exhausted him. Also that WoB that you are referring to can't be trusted as Brandon himself stated that he thinks he mislead people with it.

Edited July 12, 2020 by StanLemon

[Dunkum he/him]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So I don't have the book on me, but she grabbed a guy and threw him and he just kept going hitting multiple other people and changing them into.... Crystal?

hmm, I remember that now that you say it, but I don't think thats related to Transportation.  most likely just adrenaline and stormlight.  the transformation part obviously a form of soulcasting

[StanLemon]

If Radiants were truly as powerful as some of you believe, there is nothing that Odium has sent them that we've seen that would be able to defeat an army of them.

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Transforming people like that was mostly possible do to the Three Realms being close together, Jasnah herself confirms that.

Not what I was talking about.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It's still a vulnerability. And once a spot is cracked it has been shown to be almost compromised

Not really in WoR they say it's pretty safe to duel Shardbarers as long as it was only for one shattered peice.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Their is no evidence of this

Kaladin held a Shardhelm together long after it should have shattered by fixing it with Stormlight, and that was a dead plate that didn't belong to him.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It's literally just a swig of a vile, takes seconds. Like I said unless they are facing a Skybreaker or Windrunner it's easy. Just float in the are for a second, drink, done.

A second is all it takes.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The half shards were only a few people. 

The Alethi think otherwise, as one of them described it as "three shardbarers and half an army"

14 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

If Radiants were truly as powerful as some of you believe, there is nothing that Odium has sent them that we've seen that would be able to defeat an army of them.

Thunderclasts, Unmade, the Fused being basically pseudoRadiants, mass mobbing, the more powerful Fused we have yet to see etc etc.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Didn't really help them

Not the point, they where not surprised by it, and a Mistborn would be in the position that they thought Szeth was.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

They can sense the source of Investiture, so yeah

Very well.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Not exactly an example, nothing about that had to do with mobility

If it can be done to the user as well then Elsecallers can move that way, also Transportation is how Oathgates work.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The closest earthshaping abilities we've seen are making stairs, a far cry from telekinetically molding rock

Simply sink the Mistborn in and put a cap on them. Even Vin couldn't get out of that.

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The Stormfather showed surprise that it happened, clearly indicating no other Bondsmith could do it. And he only recharged them by opening a Perpendicularity. His other feat of supercharging Kaladin exhausted him. Also that WoB that you are referring to can't be trusted as Brandon himself stated that he thinks he mislead people with it.

My point still stands until we see otherwise it's rather hard to be misleading when the books support the statement.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Frustration

[StanLemon]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not what I was talking about.

It's exactly what you were talking about

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really in WoR they say it's pretty safe to duel Shardbarers as long as it was only for one shattered peice.

And if that piece is the head?

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin held a Shardhelm together long after it should have shattered by fixing it with Stormlight, and that was a dead plate that didn't belong to him.

The helm was sucking up his Stormlight, which is what Plate does. The closest you could say is that it made it more durable and event that is suspect considering Kaladin's very limited experience with Plate.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A second is all it takes.

Again, only a Windrunner or Skybreaker would even be able to reach the Mistborn

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Alethi think otherwise, as one of them described it as "three shardbarers and half an army"

Because no ever uses hyperbole

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Thunderclasts, Unmade, the Fused being basically pseudoRadiants, mass mobbing, the more powerful Fused we have yet to see etc etc.

Which have caused them how many problems. Oh yeah, very little. Renarin basically single highhandedly defeated a Thunderclast and that is because he can tank anything with F-Gold like healing. Thunderclasts are especially vulnerable to Shardblades. All the Fused we've seen pale compared to a Radiant. The Unmade have so far shown themselves to be more effective against masses of regular people and not very effective against Radiants. 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not the point, they where not surprised by it, and a Mistborn would be in the position that they thought Szeth was.

And a Radiant wouldn't know what to expect from a Mistborn. They knew Szeth had powers but didn't actually know much of what he could do

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If it can be done to the user as well then Elsecallers can move that way, also Transportation is how Oathgates work.

Doesn't mean they can teleport spam in a fight, and Jasnah hasn't really used it in a fight.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Simply sink the Mistborn in and put a cap on them. Even Vin couldn't get out of that.

True, if they get lucky enough to catch the Mistborn in surprise like that. 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My point still stands until we see otherwise it's rather hard to be misleading when the books support the statement.

No it doesn't. I've been making the point that the book doesn't support your statement.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

First, I'm not claiming that Radiants are invincible.  They can be killed,  specifically when caught unaware or have run out of Stormlight. What I am saying is that none of the weapons a Mistborn would typically employ would have any effect on a Radiant with Plate on. The Mistborn can't effect the metals they're wearing because they're made of solid Investiture.  Coins either bounce off or push the Mistborn back. And glass knives? Please. Now if you give them guns it's a different story, but either one gets guns or they get Atium. Narratively the 2 don't exist together,  though there is no other reason for them not to coexist. 

Second, we spent Era 1 Mistborn watching Vin, arguably the greatest and most skilled Mistborn to ever live.  She is atypical.  Many More Mistborn will be at Elerial's skill level than would be at Vin's. So it's fair to use her as a benchmark instead of Vin.  Look, Vin killed a Fullborn.  Do you believe that any Mistborn could have accomplished this? Talk about overestimating. 

Third, Mistborn mobility is great but not insurmountable given the Surges. Some surges can match or surpass that mobility.  Windrunner/ Skybreaker can outmaneuver them, especially in an open plain while Edgedancer can more easily dodge than many opponents a Mistborn would face. Note that the Atium advantage is greatly reduced airborne, especially if they're far away from their anchors. Other surges can negate that mobility.  The Soulcast orders could transform their coins or their metal even at a distance.  The cohesion Orders could move their anchors and throw them off balance,  or even stick them to the ground.  See Amaram vs Kaladin in OB. 

Now if one were to give Mistborn both guns and Atium without adding new abilities to the Radiants then their success rate would rise up to more than one time in fifty.  The odds get even better with plentiful,  difficult to move anchors,  say a city block with skyscrapers.  There are strategies that allow for a Mistborn to win a head to head contest with a Radiant. But the thing about these strategies is that they take time and multiple damage to accomplish, during which time said Mistborn must be perfect.  The Radiant has a much wider margin for error.  And often the most dangerous place in the universe is within Shardblade range of a Radiant in plate. We can agree to disagree if you think a pewter burn can tank a Shardplate punch and keep moving. Shardblade cuts are unblockable with anything a Mistborn may carry.  All that means is that all it takes is one hit, one mistake for the Radiant to render the Mistborn dead or incapacitate him while nothing in the Mistborn arsenal can duplicate this.

[StanLemon]

@Bigmikey357 a fair and concise point. 

The one thing I would like to point out is your comment on most Mistborn won't be like Vin. A completely valid thing. But keep in mind, most Radiants won't be like Kaladin or Szeth either. Remember, Shan wasn't a pushover, Vin had to surprise and trick her in order to win that fight and it wasn't just because Shan had more Atium. Vin herself thinks that Shan was the superior fighter when they were fighting. Now this was well before Vin had peaked but she was able survive an encounter with multiple Inquisitors and even give Kelsier a run for his money during training by that point

Edited July 13, 2020 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The one thing I would like to point out is your comment on most Mistborn won't be like Vin. A completely valid thing. But keep in mind, most Radiants won't be like Kaladin or Szeth either.

Depends on the order Lightweavers I'll give you almost all the time. But Windrunners, Skybreakers and Stonewards will almost always be on that level.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

50 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

@Bigmikey357 a fair and concise point. 

The one thing I would like to point out is your comment on most Mistborn won't be like Vin. A completely valid thing. But keep in mind, most Radiants won't be like Kaladin or Szeth either. Remember, Shan wasn't a pushover, Vin had to surprise and trick her in order to win that fight and it wasn't just because Shan had more Atium. Vin herself thinks that Shan was the superior fighter when they were fighting. Now this was well before Vin had peaked but she was able survive an encounter with multiple Inquisitors and even give Kelsier a run for his money during training by that point

That is also a fair point.  But that's why I brought up the point of the margin of error.  If Vin is fighting,  she beats anyone,  I don't care who it is. She's a murder machine, and if you gave her the full suite of 16 metals + Atium + guns I'd give her even odds to settle for Odium,  much less a mere Radiant.  Kaladin got some tricks but nothing like Vin.  However,  what you're much more likely to get regarding the power scaling would be Shan v Teft. Now based on my criteria for winning strategies,  is someone like Ms. Elarial capable of perfection? I don't think she is. Is someone like Teft capable of pressing their advantage in a  competent enough fashion to defeat a Mistborn? Mostly, though the environment will matter to a much greater degree than they would against the very best. The way I see it, taking the skills of the combatants into consideration,  if the fighters are equally skilled in their respective magic systems,  Radiant beats Mistborn.  If the Radiant is better skilled,  Radiant wins. If the Mistborn is supremely skilled and the Radiant is average,  it's a toss up. The Mistborn can only win consistently if they are much better than the Radiant. This is with plate of course.  Anyone with just a blade facing a Mistborn is likely to have a really bad day.

[Dunkum he/him]

Well, at least a few of us have been at this all day, and I don't think anyone's mind is being changed here.  We're past the point where I feel like arguing further is going to persuade anyone, including whomever else is reading this thread and not commenting, so I plan to leave 1 last post, attempting to sum up my position, and leave it at that (we'll see if i manage this without gettign sucked back in):

so basically, we have 2 cases, the Atium case and the non-atium case.  I think I generally agree with the point that a Mistborn's abilities are generally going to have a very hard time against a radiant with plate and sword in the non-atium case.  Coins alone won't crack plate.  With Duralumin they probably could, though I still think it would take several hits to break a section, but duralumin is a risky move, and duralumin + steel espceically so - with no steel any mobility advantage drops drastically.  regular (maybe flared) steel with a sufficiently heavy anchor might be able to manage it as well, but even so that isn't going to be enough.  between stormlight healing the body, and the potential for stormlight to heal the plate itself (which I agree is likely), the radiant is unlikely to be much deterred by that.  the same more or less applies with pewter with the added concern that being that close leaves you vulnerable to hits by plate and sword, either of which can be deadly.  even if we add in the era 2 metals and allow them those, I don't see it changing the balance much.  with some luck, and/or more or less perfect form it isn't impossible to win, but its not a fight they should take if they have any other option.  way I see it, a mistborn has less than 1% chance of winning here, except maybe in a city, with lots and lots of metal around for them to use as anchors and weapons, maybe.  on an empty stretch of the shattered plains they might have a slim chance as well, using the terrain to their advantage against the 8 orders that can't fly, but on an empty level plain, it pretty much is always going to go to the radiant.

With Atium is a different story.  as mentioned this isn't an automatic win, but I think those arguing against this are discounting just how powerful atium is, and overestimating just how debilitating a head/brain injury would be, even with stormlight healing.  A skilled mistborn with atium to guide them should be able to pull off a kill shot if one presents itself.  and they are going to be able to dodge just about anything that gets sent their way.  and a steelpushed coin or even a dagger through the eyeslit should be disruptive enough to allow for further damage, again with atium to guide the attacks.  a radiant fighting defensively may be able to avoid presenting a target until the atium runs out, in which case we are back to the above case, but I don't consider this to be especially likely - the only way to avoid presenting a target is largely to keep your eyes covered, which will render them mostly blind, not generally considered a good fighting strategy.  a very clever radiant may be able to maneuver the mistborn into a no win scenario, in which case the atium won't help, but this is extremely difficult -  you'd need to get them into a position where even their future sight wouldn't be sufficient to dodge or block the incoming attack.  I can think of scenarios that might work - figthing inside a cave, for instance, and simply bringing the entire roof down with cohesion (i think that would be the right surge for this) - but i'm not sure how you'd get a mistborn into that position in the first place.  I said before that the mistborn gets a kill 70% of the time in this scenario and survives until the atium runs out upward of 90%, and I stand by it - precision and dexterity from pewter, foresight from atium and maneuverability from steel and iron and, if needed, a burst of raw power from duralumin should be enough to get them through this fight.  Even so, i think a radiant has a much better chance against a mistborn with atium than a mistborn without atium has against a radiant.

I haven't touched on era 2 at all, since obviously there are no mistbron in era 2 and no atium, at least not generally accessible, but we know guns can crack plate, so if you did have a mistborn, and especially if you could give them a gun like vindication, then i think, even without atium, that they'd have a reasonable chance.  with atium id bet on gun-weilding mistborn probably 95% of the time.

at any rate, that's where i stand, and at this point you either agree with it or not.  I doubt further dicussion will make much difference either way.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Dunkum
just so many typos

[Gisaku75]

7 hours ago, Dunkum said:

so basically, we have 2 cases, the Atium case and the non-atium case.  I think I generally agree with the point that a Mistborn's abilities are generally going to have a very hard time against a radiant with plate and sword in the non-atium case.  Coins alone won't crack plate.  With Duralumin they probably could, though I still think it would take several hits to break a section, but duralumin is a risky move, and duralumin + steel espceically so - with no steel any mobility advantage drops drastically.  refular (maybe flared) steel with a sifficiently heavy anchor might be able to manage it as well, but even so that isn't going to be enough.  between stormlight healing the body, and the potential for stormlight ot heal the plate itself (which I agree is likely), the radiant is unlikely to be much deterred by that.  the same more or less applies with pewter with the added concern that being that close leaves you culnerable ot hits by plate and sword, either of whcih can be deadly.  even if we add in the era 2 metals and allow them those, I don't see it changing the balance much.  with some luck, and/or more or less perfect form it isn't impossible to win, but its not a fight they should take if they have any other option.  way I see it, a mistborn has less than 1% chance of winning here, except maybe in a city, with lots and lots of metal around for them to use as anchors and weapons, maybe.  on an empty stretch of the shattered plains they might have a slim chance as well, using the terrain to their advantage against the 8 orders that can't fly, but on an empty level plain, it pretty much is always going to go to the radiant.

And why? in the open field the mistborn can fly on steel and bomb the opponent with coins, he only needs a few lucky hits to gain an advantage over the opponent without wasting a lot of resources. For orders that attack from a distance it depends on who has the longest range. And the remote attacks of the radiant consume stormlights while the consumption of steel is constant and can last for hours. Eventually a mistborn against many orders can stall and see who is consuming their resources first. In a passage from the book Adolin remembers seeing a Shardwarrior being killed by an archer after dozens of spearmen had managed to crack the Shardplate. With coins, a misrborn can safely open dozens of cracks which when added together can lead to a break. Or to let the Radiant consume his light.

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

And why? in the open field the mistborn can fly on steel and bomb the opponent with coins, he only needs a few lucky hits to gain an advantage over the opponent without wasting a lot of resources. For orders that attack from a distance it depends on who has the longest range. And the remote attacks of the radiant consume stormlights while the consumption of steel is constant and can last for hours. Eventually a mistborn against many orders can stall and see who is consuming their resources first. In a passage from the book Adolin remembers seeing a Shardwarrior being killed by an archer after dozens of spearmen had managed to crack the Shardplate. With coins, a misrborn can safely open dozens of cracks which when added together can lead to a break. Or to let the Radiant consume his light.

A standard coin will not crack plate. A Radiant does not constantly need stormlight when they don't constantly surgebind. And steel does not last that long.