Why Radiants are incredibly overpowered, and Mistborn aren't.

[therunner]

17 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I still think the presence of Shardplate in future eras doesn't necessarily indicate a cap on the power limit of weaponry progression. At least I don't think its future appearance offers justification on how ineffective current and near-future weaponry is against it. There's plenty of reasons to keep using armor and tanks long after the enemy has developed nukes, AP rounds and anti-tank missiles. Especially if said armor gives power assist, is a summonable package deal with your magic powerset, and doesn't interfere with using Surges. It absolutely could be as relatively durable in the future, or could be utterly demolished by future weaponry and still see use as a self-regenerating resource that sometimes doesn't take luggage space.

It probably won't turn out this way, but Surgebinders could end up being the glass cannon wizard class who can't use the best armor because it interferes with their magic, which would be an ironic reversal from their historic role. Shardplate's utility is more than defense.

 

On its own I would agree, but Brandon specifically calls out Shardplate as 'powered armor' on multiple occasions (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14085 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3227 as some samples) and says it would resist bullets well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561), and SotD2

Spoiler

the Knight in the exercpt does not seem particularly worried. Scadrians land with ship with several people (plus have ship in orbit), and one Rosharan knight lands on the planet and the knight specifically offers 'their' protection, not protection of their people. (though he can mean their personal unit if they are commander).

That alone says something about power.

All this combined suggest that Shardplate will remain combat relevant even in Era 4, you don't introduce magical powered armor that can resist bullet only to have it not be combat relevant in the actual space opera section of the story.

It probably won't be as unstoppable as it is now, where it is be-all end-all of armor on any planet, but it will probably be formidable.

(Personally I also think it will get some upgrades in the future that will help it remain relevant, when some Bondsmith will change how Orders function a bit, similar to how Ishar originally formed Radiants).

Edited September 18, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

37 minutes ago, therunner said:

On its own I would agree, but Brandon specifically calls out Shardplate as 'powered armor' on multiple occasions (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14085 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3227 as some samples) and says it would resist bullets well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561), and SotD2

  Reveal hidden contents

the Knight in the exercpt does not seem particularly worried. Scadrians land with ship with several people (plus have ship in orbit), and one Rosharan knight lands on the planet and the knight specifically offers 'their' protection, not protection of their people. (though he can mean their personal unit if they are commander).

That alone says something about power.

All this combined suggest that Shardplate will remain combat relevant even in Era 4, you don't introduce magical powered armor that can resist bullet only to have it not be combat relevant in the actual space opera section of the story.

It probably won't be as unstoppable as it is now, where it is be-all end-all of armor on any planet, but it will probably be formidable.

(Personally I also think it will get some upgrades in the future that will help it remain relevant, when some Bondsmith will change how Orders function a bit, similar to how Ishar originally formed Radiants).

I don't know if Brandon has taken into account the difference in calibers that can exist. A .44mag with modern rounds is pushing less than 1400 joules. A 700 nitro or a 50BMG are both capable of pushing 10+x that amount of energy. Hand loaded rounds could push 20,000 joules.  Not to mention all of the different cores and metals that could be used as the bullet itself. 

To say it resists bullets well is a really really broad statement. Its like saying getting into a crash at 10mph is basically the same as getting into a crash at 80mph and everything in-between. 

[Duxredux]

45 minutes ago, therunner said:

On its own I would agree, but Brandon specifically calls out Shardplate as 'powered armor' on multiple occasions (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14085 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3227 as some samples) and says it would resist bullets well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561), and SotD2

  Reveal hidden contents

the Knight in the exercpt does not seem particularly worried. Scadrians land with ship with several people (plus have ship in orbit), and one Rosharan knight lands on the planet and the knight specifically offers 'their' protection, not protection of their people. (though he can mean their personal unit if they are commander).

That alone says something about power.

All this combined suggest that Shardplate will remain combat relevant even in Era 4, you don't introduce magical powered armor that can resist bullet only to have it not be combat relevant in the actual space opera section of the story.

It probably won't be as unstoppable as it is now, where it is be-all end-all of armor on any planet, but it will probably be formidable.

(Personally I also think it will get some upgrades in the future that will help it remain relevant, when some Bondsmith will change how Orders function a bit, similar to how Ishar originally formed Radiants).

Yeah, I can see that. That all makes sense.

As I consider, I think my resistance to Shardplate is how across the board it's overpowered or presented as such. The debate for me at this point I think boils down down to whether Brandon will go with his 2nd law of magic system: limitations are more interesting the powers, or the 0th law: when in doubt always err on the side that is more awesome. It might depend on if he gets his fill of powerarmor doing awesome stuff by the end of SA and once we hit Era 4 or if he wants more awesome punchy-punchy whacky-whacky.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, Duxredux said:

Yeah, I can see that. That all makes sense.

As I consider, I think my resistance to Shardplate is how across the board it's overpowered or presented as such. The debate for me at this point I think boils down down to whether Brandon will go with his 2nd law of magic system: limitations are more interesting the powers, or the 0th law: when in doubt always err on the side that is more awesome. It might depend on if he gets his fill of powerarmor doing awesome stuff by the end of SA and once we hit Era 4 or if he wants more awesome punchy-punchy whacky-whacky.

Ah. The only armor stronger than shardplate is that which the author grants through the need to allow his character to survive until he wants them dead... PLOT ARMOR.  

[therunner]

14 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

As I consider, I think my resistance to Shardplate is how across the board it's overpowered or presented as such.

Shardplate looks overpowered compared to other planets magical artifacts, but on Roshar it is not as OP.  Thunderclasts could probably shatter Plate relatively easily, some Fused can crack it with effectively punches. 
Roshar thanks to the Desolations is just on different level when it comes to combat tech.

It comes down to the fact that Roshar is and will be magi-tech based primarily, but Scadrial (the second primary planet) will have more Earth based tech. So at the moment Roshar has couple of OP things, but the gap will be closing over time.

14 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

The debate for me at this point I think boils down down to whether Brandon will go with his 2nd law of magic system: limitations are more interesting the powers, or the 0th law: when in doubt always err on the side that is more awesome. It might depend on if he gets his fill of powerarmor doing awesome stuff by the end of SA and once we hit Era 4 or if he wants more awesome punchy-punchy whacky-whacky.

I think he will go with 0th law.
One can see how overtime he is removing limitations (e.g. Elantrian capable of using powers off Elantris, Steel/Iron being possibly able to affect EM forces in general, the entire spectrum of spiritual powers) and expanding scope of powers.

To elaborate, in Era 1 Allomancy/Feruchemy was rather clearly defined: Steel/Iron push metal, Pewter increases strength and resilience, F-Iron did not allow you to move when tapping too much etc.
But in Era 2 and WoBs Allomancy is becoming increasingly arbitrary (from my PoV): Steel/Iron could change polarity of atoms, affect non-metallic compounds, allows seeing atoms and Investiture, Pewter could allow Shapeshifting like Returned do, F-Iron automatically strengthens you so you can move yet you cannot hit any harder (which makes so little sense) etc.

I expect that similar things will happen to Surgebinding in second part of SA, or in future eras. That Surges will start doing things that are seemingly not within their purview.

I do hope that he will somewhat reigns himself in, so that powers are clearly understandable by audience, don't feel arbitrary, and don't change to suit the narrative. You know, the whole 'Magic A is Magic A' thing.

Edited September 18, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

Shardplate looks overpowered compared to other planets magical artifacts, but on Roshar it is not as OP.  Thunderclasts could probably shatter Plate relatively easily, some Fused can crack it with effectively punches. 
Roshar thanks to the Desolations is just on different level when it comes to combat tech.

It comes down to the fact that Roshar is and will be magi-tech based primarily, but Scadrial (the second primary planet) will have more Earth based tech. So at the moment Roshar has couple of OP things, but the gap will be closing over time.

I think he will go with 0th law.
One can see how overtime he is removing limitations (e.g. Elantrian capable of using powers off Elantris, Steel/Iron being possibly able to affect EM forces in general, the entire spectrum of spiritual powers) and expanding scope of powers.

To elaborate, in Era 1 Allomancy/Feruchemy was rather clearly defined: Steel/Iron push metal, Pewter increases strength and resilience, F-Iron did not allow you to move when tapping too much etc.
But in Era 2 and WoBs Allomancy is becoming increasingly arbitrary (from my PoV): Steel/Iron could change polarity of atoms, affect non-metallic compounds, allows seeing atoms and Investiture, Pewter could allow Shapeshifting like Returned do, F-Iron automatically strengthens you so you can move yet you cannot hit any harder (which makes so little sense) etc.

I expect that similar things will happen to Surgebinding in second part of SA, or in future eras. That Surges will start doing things that are seemingly not within their purview.

I do hope that he will somewhat reigns himself in, so that powers are clearly understandable by audience, don't feel arbitrary, and don't change to suit the narrative. You know, the whole 'Magic A is Magic A' thing.

I think that is my biggest issue with SA and the future of the cosmere. 

What attracted me to Brandon's writing and the cosmere in general was that they were hard magic systems.  Honestly the softer they get the more turned off I get towards his newer works. 

I really really loved Mistborn. It was outlined with enough rules that it was almost like reading scifi in a fantasy setting. It was one of the things I saw and made note of in an interview (either Orson Scott Card or Brandon Sanderson I can't remember which) where the author was asked about scifi vs fantasy. What is StarWars?  Magic with space ships. 

 

I prefer the mistborn style. Lots of rules on a magic system and everyone is living by them. You are absolutely right. The further the cosmere progresses the more rules don't matter.  This is coming from me who loves the idea of a bendalloy compounder gaining access to aetherbound abilities or Lifts boon. 

Breaking rules is fun but I prefer them to be broken via the rules of other strict systems vs some handwaving and saying "spiritual realmatics mumbo jumbo rule of cool".  

[therunner]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Breaking rules is fun but I prefer them to be broken via the rules of other strict systems vs some handwaving and saying "spiritual realmatics mumbo jumbo rule of cool".  

I agree with that.

I do enjoy SA more than Mistborn, but for reasons completely unrelated to magic system (I am sucker for epics and overcoming inner demons). I would say that Era 1 had probably the best (hardest) magic system to my tastes.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't know if Brandon has taken into account the difference in calibers that can exist. A .44mag with modern rounds is pushing less than 1400 joules. A 700 nitro or a 50BMG are both capable of pushing 10+x that amount of energy. Hand loaded rounds could push 20,000 joules.  Not to mention all of the different cores and metals that could be used as the bullet itself. 

To say it resists bullets well is a really really broad statement. Its like saying getting into a crash at 10mph is basically the same as getting into a crash at 80mph and everything in-between. 

He's said that Wax doing everything right only had a chance of breaking plate in one hit, that's him using Vindication's highest caliber round, while tapping iron and pushing with everything he had.

Spoiler

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385/#e12595

 

 

I'd say that definitely compares to everything short of anti-tank rounds.