[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[Shoffart]

I've seen a lot of posts on here saying Dalinars whole unite them thing is insisting he'll take up Tanavasts Shard and become Unity instead of honor. This got me thinking and I just noticed the similiarity to mistborn. In this series we see a Shard choose someone to be its next vessel, and then that same person chosen to be another Shards champion. Dalinar was chosen to be odiums champion. My thought is that the Stormfather was supposed to show the vessels to the person who would become Honors next vessel. So right there we see that odium groomed Dalinar from a young age and Dalinar was also chosen by the Stormfather aka Honor. When Dalinar visits the Nightwatcher Cultivation intervened knowing that Dalinar was odiums champion. I think that the unite them thing isn't about the splinters of Honor, though it very well could be a reference to him eventually becoming Honor, but I think it's about him becoming all three and achieving this figure of Unity. This could go even further. Dalinar may in fact be the person who unites all the Shards and recreates adonalsium. Or I could be completely wrong and he dies who knows 

 

Edit: so I reread the Ascension scene and something that sticks out to me is the way Odium said we killed you. We. We know that Odium killed Honor so I don't think he's referring to him, I think he's referring to Adonalsium. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Shoffart

[Shoffart]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:12 PM, KnightGradient said:

After digesting the book for the past 24 hours, I can safely say it was awesome. But disturbing.

Was nobody else deeply disturbed by Odium Passion? I expected some conniving, backstabbing SOB, who would twist your words and destroy worlds. Instead, he actually seemed to care. Every time Dalinar said "Choose your fighter! One duel for all of Roshar!" Odium would back away, and ask "Are you sure? Do you understand what you are asking?" I don't think that's just how Shards are. Ruin or Autonomy would probably have capitalized on those words, and immediately overpowered Dalinar. 

Moreover, the parsh have it rough. We were promised Voidbringers, and instead got people. Angry people. Angry and right people. Humanity invaded their world, spat on the kindness the Singers offered, and stole their Gods. Then, humans engaged in bloody wars, eventually removed a fundamental part of their existence, made them idiots, and enslaved them. I'm probably in the minority, but Moash was right. Humans don't deserve Roshar anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I love them good guys. The Knights Radiant were amazing here, and the Battle of Thaylen Field was phenomenal, but I have to side with Passion. Rayse's quest to kill the Shards makes sense now; all they do is meddle and interfere. Without the Shard's, the Cosmere would probably be a lot more peaceful, and more prosperous too. Elantris is proof of this. Even with both Shards dead, their world is the most advanced, and while divided, it seems like they've united since we last were on Sel.

Maybe I need to reread Oathbringer, but I think we're seeing the perspective of the bad guys. Guess I understand the Recreance now.

You do realize odiums the reason the humans did all that on Roshar right? Wheh they first appeared Odium was their god and they used void light not stormlight. Odium whipped them into a frenzy and led them to take over Roshar before defecting sides to the parshendi for reasons yet unexplained 

[MistLord he/him]

6 hours ago, MrFunEGUY said:

I don't know that I agree that all other Shardic Intents have an air of neutrality about them. Ruin, for example. But even Preservation wasn't neutral, per se. 

I actually really liked how neutral Ruin seemed to be in Mistborn. Yes, he was out to destroy the world, but that's what entropy does. And entropy is a fundamental part of the world that has got to do with change. As a fundamental part of the universe, it cannot be inherently evil, as that is a human quality. It sucks at times, but it's clear that it's just part of the way things are, and it added to the existential conflict of Mistborn. It reminded me of the Hindu Gods (I forget which ones) and how neither the God who preserves or the God who destroys is any better than each other, but their cycle is what keeps the universe going. 

However, especially from my Christian point of view (which I believe Brandon would share), hatred is never justified. It just doesn't seem to do any good? Whatever hatred can achieve, rationality can do better. Hatred towards someone who has done the most heinous crimes in history is understandable, but is it really neutral in the way Ruin is? Our laws are decided based on policy and decision because we know emotions don't make us objective. Emotions just rile people up, and while this can be positive as it allows us to feel really human, hatred can also be the thing that takes our humanity away. Especially in Christian teaching, forgiveness – letting go of hatred – is powerfully, almost divinely therapeutic. Considering how much Oathbringer deals with forgiveness (and the abundance of Christian imagery) I can't help but feel this supports my feelings. 

I have a theory that Odium has less to do with hate, and more to do with conflict itself, as the multitude of emotions that Dalinar describes when seeing Odium have all to do with conquest. But I need to develop that theory first.

Or maybe I just need to get with the programme and realise Odium is more fundamental than I admit 

1 hour ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well, Ruin really wanted an end to things, in his own words, everything needs an end. He's not bad per say, he's bad without context, same as every single other shard, preservation would stop any change whatsoever, Honor only cares about oaths, not wether they will destroy people like what happened to Szeth, Odium is (per epigraphs of one of the first two books) "god's own divine hatred, without the (I think virtues?) that gave it context". All of these things are good if you give them balance and context, and terrible alone. See Harmony as opposed to either Ruin or Preservation, or Preservation in the context of trying to stop Ruin in HoA. 

The Stormfather said that in one point of the conflict, Honour lapsed into only caring about the wording of oaths, but that he wasn't usually so positivist as to not look at the meaning behind them before that. Kaladin talks to Syl about the subjectivity of Ideals, depending on the Radiant's interpretation of their meaning. So Honour's power definitively takes purpose into mind somewhat at least.

That epigraph is interesting though, you have a point of Odium and Honour maybe being better opposites than I thought. I never considered this because Odium is a traveller, and Honour and Odium were never meant to be paired up in the first place (also, didn't Brandon say no two shards better complemented each other than Preservation and Ruin?).

 

Either way, super hyped to see where this conflict takes us 

[Starla]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Yeah that is why I feel like there has to be more. Sure I get the shock of finding out that you are the bad guys and your god is telling you that you will destroy your world would be pretty strong motivation to not want to use surges anymore but kill your bonded spren as well? Oh and this was motivation enough justification for EVERYONE except the Skybreakers. Now @Ookla the Effervescent mentioned about the shattering of the plains as catalyst makes more sense since they would have actually witnessed the destruction. 

Witnessing some massive destruction could trigger breaking the bonds, though if that's the case, I find it curious that the spren are so angry about it. If the radiants had to break the bond to prevent some planetary catastrophe, I would expect the spren to understand the reasoning behind it and agree to it willingly. For example, an Honor spren would expect their radiant to do whatever is necessary to protect people, even breaking the bond. However now, hundreds/thousands of years later, the Honor spren forbid their kind to bond anyone, so that Syl had to run away to form a bond. Likewise, the Willshaper spren seem to only want to bond Singers, and the Dustbringer spren hate the other radiant orders. I find it surprising that some amicable agreement between radiant and spren couldn't be reached to prevent the impending catastrophe. Perhaps the spren expected the radiant to sacrifice themselves, rather than the spren (i.e. suicide).

[Shardmancer he/him]

Ok!

After long hiatus away from the forums "Oathbringer" lashed me right back.

Great book keep them coming Brandon *There is always another secret*

[StormingTexan he/him]

7 minutes ago, Starla said:

Witnessing some massive destruction could trigger breaking the bonds, though if that's the case, I find it curious that the spren are so angry about it. If the radiants had to break the bond to prevent some planetary catastrophe, I would expect the spren to understand the reasoning behind it and agree to it willingly. For example, an Honor spren would expect their radiant to do whatever is necessary to protect people, even breaking the bond. However now, hundreds/thousands of years later, the Honor spren forbid their kind to bond anyone, so that Syl had to run away to form a bond. Likewise, the Willshaper spren seem to only want to bond Singers, and the Dustbringer spren hate the other radiant orders. I find it surprising that some amicable agreement between radiant and spren couldn't be reached to prevent the impending catastrophe. Perhaps the spren expected the radiant to sacrifice themselves, rather than the spren (i.e. suicide).

Even if the Spren agree to it willingly to save the world in the past that doesn't mean they would be ok with repeating this in the present. Especially with their diminished numbers currently. Still does not make sense to me with the current explanation is why they had to kill their spren. We know there are ways to release them as long as the KR has not spoken their final ideal and presumable at least a decent portion would not be at this level yet. 

[TequilaJack]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

Witnessing some massive destruction could trigger breaking the bonds, though if that's the case, I find it curious that the spren are so angry about it. If the radiants had to break the bond to prevent some planetary catastrophe, I would expect the spren to understand the reasoning behind it and agree to it willingly. For example, an Honor spren would expect their radiant to do whatever is necessary to protect people, even breaking the bond. However now, hundreds/thousands of years later, the Honor spren forbid their kind to bond anyone, so that Syl had to run away to form a bond. Likewise, the Willshaper spren seem to only want to bond Singers, and the Dustbringer spren hate the other radiant orders. I find it surprising that some amicable agreement between radiant and spren couldn't be reached to prevent the impending catastrophe. Perhaps the spren expected the radiant to sacrifice themselves, rather than the spren (i.e. suicide).

Stormfather who was standing in for Honor distrusts humans. He was creating honorsprens after Honor and so his attitude may have filtered in. 

Sprens are nearly a different species. They are pieces of pure power and have pre existed humanity at least at a planetary level. You can't expect them to have same faith in humanity as you and me. For them honor is being true to your Oaths. What you are saying is a justification to oath breaking, and once you go down that route it's a slippery slope. They are spirits and stay true to Oaths irrespective of external influences imo.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by TequilaJack

[TequilaJack]

44 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Even if the Spren agree to it willingly to save the world in the past that doesn't mean they would be ok with repeating this in the present. Especially with their diminished numbers currently. Still does not make sense to me with the current explanation is why they had to kill their spren. We know there are ways to release them as long as the KR has not spoken their final ideal and presumable at least a decent portion would not be at this level yet. 

If you break even after first oath, they die. Syl nearly died and that's after 1 or 2 Oaths. What's the release you refer to here? 

[Starla]

29 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

Stormfather who was standing in for Honor distrusts humans. He was creating honorsprens after Honor and so his attitude may have filtered in. 

Sprens are nearly a different species. They are pieces of pure power and have pre existed humanity at least at a planetary level. You can't expect them to have same faith in humanity as you and me. For them honor is being true to your Oaths. What you are saying is a justification to oath breaking, and once you go down that route it's a slippery slope. They are spirits and stay true to Oaths irrespective of external influences imo.

But what is considering breaking the oaths? If a radiant has sworn an oath to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and he discovers that his surgebinding abilities, and those of his fellow radiants, are in danger of destroying the planet, isn't it his duty to stop it however he can? If breaking the nahel bond protects thousands or millions of people, is that what he needs to do?

I still feel like there should be another way beside breaking the bond. @StormingTexan mentions releasing the bond. I think this is possible. See this WOB (link):

Quote

fangorn: So, if a bonded human were to decide for whatever reason that he/she wanted to retire from being a Radiant, is it possible to do that or is the Nahel bond a lifetime gig?

For example, say Kaladin felt he could no longer uphold the requirements of being bonded to Syl, or eventually he just got old or worn out.

Brandon Sanderson: Retiring from the bond is possible under mechanics I haven't talked about yet in the series.

So why didn't they do this rather than killing the spren? 

[TequilaJack]

18 minutes ago, Starla said:

But what is considering breaking the oaths? If a radiant has sworn an oath to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and he discovers that his surgebinding abilities, and those of his fellow radiants, are in danger of destroying the planet, isn't it his duty to stop it however he can? If breaking the nahel bond protects thousands or millions of people, is that what he needs to do?

I still feel like there should be another way beside breaking the bond. @StormingTexan mentions releasing the bond. I think this is possible. See this WOB (link):

So why didn't they do this rather than killing the spren? 

There is a paradox here. By right humans are the voidbringers and we stole Parshmen planet. So from a Radiant pov it's the Parshmen who are in the right. They are caught in a dilemma to choose between humans vs Parshmen.

It's not really easy to just choose millions of humans as you say and kill Parshmen who are just trying to get back their home planet. More of a moral and philosophical debate than you say...and there seems no resolution. So that's why the Radiants foresook their Oaths. So you kill Parshmen who in this case cannot protect themselves from humans? 

 

And most importantly it was Gavilar and Ghost Bloods (humans ) who was trying to bring back Desolation (and Radiants) while Parshmen were trying to keep their god ( Odium) dead. 

I don't believe their oaths are restricted only to humans and ignores everything else. Doesn't make sense in bigger picture.

As to setting aside being a Radiant, too many explanations possible. Old age, done enough etc. We can only speculate now. Have no idea on this. RAFO, I believe.

Edited November 30, 2017 by TequilaJack

[StormingTexan he/him]

58 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

I still feel like there should be another way beside breaking the bond. @StormingTexan mentions releasing the bond. I think this is possible. See this WOB (link):

It’s also in OB the Captan of the Homorspren ship tells Kaladin there are ways to severe the bond without killing the spren assuming the final ideal has not been spoken or along those lines.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Fulminato he/him]

9 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

It’s also in OB the Captan of the Homorspren ship tells Kaladin there are ways to severe the bond without killing the spren assuming the final ideal has not been spoken or along those lines.

Notum shook his head, then looked away, off into the distance. “I cannot answer. You should not have bonded Sylphrena, either way. She is too precious to the Stormfather.”
“Regardless,” Kaladin said, “you’re about half a year too late. So you might as well accept it.”
“Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.”

Oathbringer Chapter 108 "Honor’s Path"

[tally]

right uh my first post so bear with please 

I finished the book last night damnation THAT ENDING i really need to reread it soon the difference in pace from the shadesmar chapters to the final few... i have loads of questions but  1 pressing one can someone please explain what the dalinars ascension means or is.. so he can now recharge radiants and spheres at will? i really thought he would become the new vessel for honor for a second there i cant remember his new ideal but what new powers does he have now??. Also dalinars refusal YES LAD.

[Blacksmithki]

15 hours ago, MistLord said:

 

The Stormfather said that in one point of the conflict, Honour lapsed into only caring about the wording of oaths, but that he wasn't usually so positivist as to not look at the meaning behind them before that. Kaladin talks to Syl about the subjectivity of Ideals, depending on the Radiant's interpretation of their meaning. So Honour's power definitively takes purpose into mind somewhat at least.

That epigraph is interesting though, you have a point of Odium and Honour maybe being better opposites than I thought. I never considered this because Odium is a traveller, and Honour and Odium were never meant to be paired up in the first place (also, didn't Brandon say no two shards better complemented each other than Preservation and Ruin?).

 

Either way, super hyped to see where this conflict takes us 

To number one, I was referring to a pure intent of Honor the shard, instead of Honor + Tanavast, and from that very quote it would appear that the shard's pure intent is very much as how I referred to it, but yes, given the context of a good vessel, most shards are pretty good.

2: I always saw Autonomy as the opposite of Honor, considering Honor is more or less taking away people's autonomy with oaths, the way I picture a pure shard intent Autonomy world, it would be almost the same as preservation as it would not be possible to interact with anything in any way because that forces it to do something, taking away it's autonomy. There's not like a second definition or really similar word and I'm misunderstanding autonomy is there?

[Fulminato he/him]

1 hour ago, tally said:

right uh my first post so bear with please 

I finished the book last night damnation THAT ENDING i really need to reread it soon the difference in pace from the shadesmar chapters to the final few... i have loads of questions but  1 pressing one can someone please explain what the dalinars ascension means or is.. so he can now recharge radiants and spheres at will? i really thought he would become the new vessel for honor for a second there i cant remember his new ideal but what new powers does he have now??. Also dalinars refusal YES LAD.

from mistborn "ascending" can happen if one person hold an huge mount of investiture (not needed the full shard power, like the lord ruler in the well of the ascension).

for the gemstone recharge, when in the same place an huge amount of investiture is gathered it start to bend the realm borders if you pile enough it can pierce the three realms, they usualy are called 'perpendicularity' and can be used to traver from/to the physical realm to/from shadesmar and

“Have I ever asked how you renew these?” Dalinar held up the sphere, inspecting the ruby at the center. He’d seen these loose, and had always been surprised by how small they actually were. The glass made them look far larger.
Honor’s power, during a storm, is concentrated in one place, the Stormfather said. It pierces all three realms and brings Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual together momentarily in one. The gemstones, exposed to the wonder of the Spiritual Realm, are lit by the infinite power there.

Oathbringer Chapter 64. "Binder of Gods"

[Suteneko]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:54 PM, Andvari said:

Yeah I guess I should re-phrase, I thought it made sense for the Radiants to find out and abandon their oaths, but in OB I didn't think it made sense for the human kingdoms to be SO shaken by this and just throw in the towel. It would have really thrown people, but probably not caused them to just give up and go home. Most people would have been like "I definitely don't have the moral high ground now, but what am I supposed to do, just lie down and die?"

It wasn't the fact that humans were the invaders that broke up the kingdom alliance, it was the combination of things that were revealed at the same time.  It was finding out that Dalinar had actually met Odium and then didn't tell anyone, or finding out that Elhokar had sworn to Dalinar as a High king, etc.  Each kingdom reacted badly to a different revelation, that is why The old crazy king revealed so many.  The invader tidbit was more to break the Radiants than anyone else, specifically people like Dalinar and Bridge Four who are trying to be honorable and just.  However, Kaladin realized the same thing you pointed out, that they can't just lay down and die either.  He didn't like it, but he did realize it.  

I also just remembered that Kaladin, Shallan, or Szeth are going to destroy them (from the back of Way of Kings).  And now that Szeth is on the their side, no matter who it is, it is going to be awful. 

[Suteneko]

16 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

It’s also in OB the Captan of the Homorspren ship tells Kaladin there are ways to severe the bond without killing the spren assuming the final ideal has not been spoken or along those lines.

 

Yeah it doesn't kill the spren, but Kaladin would definitely be dead!  So it is like what some people are saying about when the Radiants gave up, it was going to be either the Spren or the humans dying.  And how many of those Radiants had spoken the final ideal??  So killing themselves would have killed the spren regardless at that point.

[StormingTexan he/him]

5 minutes ago, Suteneko said:

Yeah it doesn't kill the spren, but Kaladin would definitely be dead!  So it is like what some people are saying about when the Radiants gave up, it was going to be either the Spren or the humans dying.  And how many of those Radiants had spoken the final ideal??  So killing themselves would have killed the spren regardless at that point.

Yeah but he says "other ways" which is plural so killing the KR is not the only way at least that is how I read it. Plus the WoB eludes to this as well. No idea what that is and yeah some of the KR would have sworn the 5th Ideal but not all. Which I wonder how many "full" KR are around. I am sure it is different for orders but Nale made it sound like not many Skybreakers were at the 5th level (maybe just him)? I dunno maybe this was the only way. Seems harsh like killing your dog. 

 

[Fulminato he/him]

44 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Yeah but he says "other ways" which is plural so killing the KR is not the only way at least that is how I read it. Plus the WoB eludes to this as well. No idea what that is and yeah some of the KR would have sworn the 5th Ideal but not all. Which I wonder how many "full" KR are around. I am sure it is different for orders but Nale made it sound like not many Skybreakers were at the 5th level (maybe just him)? I dunno maybe this was the only way. Seems harsh like killing your dog. 

 

all the knight in the dalinar vision (feverstone keep, the keep is named in the urithiru gemstone archive) wear their armor, for windrunner (blue plate) mean for sure they swore the fourth oath, we don't know the stonewarden progression, but don't think is much different (so third/fourth oath)

Edited November 30, 2017 by Fulminato

[A Dopey Spren he/him]

The entire book had me on the edge of my seat. As someone previously mentioned, that chapter 'Unity' in which Dalinar finally confronts and overcomes his past, gave me goosebumps.

I never felt much for Elhokar, but when he started speaking the words I was grinning, almost cheering on the train. Quickly followed by a gasp, my jaw dropping and looking about confused when Moash executes him.

Sanderson's talent at yanking the reader's emotions about is both unnerving and extraordinary. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by A Dopey Spren

[Subvisual Haze]

19 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

If you break even after first oath, they die. Syl nearly died and that's after 1 or 2 Oaths. What's the release you refer to here? 

I think Syl was a special case though.  I think the natural process would have been: Kaladin swears conflicting oaths and their bond as a result gradually weakens, Syl returns to her "stupid" windspren state, Kaladin loses his powers.  

I think the critical moment that "killed" Syl was when Kaladin was falling to his doom on the Shattered Plains.  Their bond was weakened, but Syl "cheated" and let Kaladin gasp in one last breath of Stormlight.  Their bond had been weakened to the point where to do this, Syl took a metaphorical bullet for Kal

[EC11 he/him]

Was anyone else a little dissatisfied with the Kholinar arc? I found that was my least favorite part of the books. However, the Shadesmar, Thaylen arc from the end tied up everything nicely.

Odium is an excellent villain.

[TequilaJack]

In the scene where Dalinar meets Odium first time, Odium asks Dalinar if he just made an offer to release him from his bonds. Dalinar answers No.

Maybe the bondsmith can release bonds too in certain circumstances.

 

[StormingTexan he/him]

30 minutes ago, EC11 said:

Was anyone else a little dissatisfied with the Kholinar arc? I found that was my least favorite part of the books. However, the Shadesmar, Thaylen arc from the end tied up everything nicely.

Odium is an excellent villain.

I wouldn’t say disappointed but that was the slowest part to me with it speeding up at the end. I think a lot of people felt the Shadesmar part was the slowest but I didn’t compared to most of the Kholinar scenes.

[Windseeker]

Was anyone else a little dissatisfied with the Kholinar arc? I found that was my least favorite part of the books. However, the Shadesmar, Thaylen arc from the end tied up everything nicely.

Odium is an excellent villain.

I also disliked the Kholinar arc and believe it to be wasted potential. It's one of the parts that feels the most awkward coming from Brandon Sanderson because he's usually the type who really takes his time whenever a major conflict occurs, whereas here he wrapped up a major battle in about a page.

My biggest qualms with the Kholinar arc is the time it took to set it up vs the reward. Objectively speaking, I totally appreciate plot twists, and I am inwardly happy that even the best of plans can be thwarted by unknown variables, which the Voidspren and the Unmade are. However, the way the arc ended bothers me the most, not how it ended. It painted the protagonists as a bunch of emotional, immature brats who can't get anything right due to crippling doubts. Sure, Shallan and Kaladin aren't soldiers in the real sense of the word(Unlike Adolin who shrugged off Elhokar's death because he knew that freezing up wasn't an option), but I want to see these two show their capabilities. I want them to make use of their past experience and show us, the audience, that they have evolved. What good does it do me that Kaladin constantly finds reasons to brood over? It just proves that the journey is barely relevant in his case, as he's still the naive darkeyes from chapter 1 of "Way of Kings" where he wants to save everybody he cares about. The biggest offender here is that, just before the big skirmish, he tells Elhokar, "Save the one you can," an advice that he blatantly ignores. Being conflicted about his views clashing with the Ideals he swears is good, but it shouldn't come at the cost of turning him into a hypocrite.

Shallan is equally guilty. I won't really go into detail about her since her coping mechanism is even weirder than Kaladin's depression, but I can honestly say that this pattern starts to get repetitive. We are 3 books in now, and it's a tad irritating for the protagonists to still carry the demons they supposedly banished in books 1 and 2. I don't want Shallan and Kaladin to miraculously solve all of their problems, but to at least mature and grow a freaking spine! With great power come great responsibilities indeed, yet these two seem perfectly comfortable remaining in their cocoon while whining about how unfair life is to them.