[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[Aryanath]

Although I cannot find the specific instance of where I heard/read this, I recall that someone said that Brandon once mentioned that the Kholin branch to which Dalinar and Gavilar belonged to usurped Kholinar from the main branch of the family, or something. Dalinar's tale about finding his sword master's master's master "after we captured Kholinar," confirms some sort of conquest was made. I would appreciate it if someone could shed some further light on all this, or if someone has a WOB on this. I also wonder if something happened to Dalinar's parents early on that spurred him and his brother to conquest. Gavilar is obviously leading the Kholins at a young age: what happened to the father? And is it strange that in young Dalinar's recollections, he thinks little of his parents. There's some mystery here. 

EDIT. I found the quote here:

 

Quote

 

Gavilar was 4th dahn before becoming highprince, for example. His branch of the Kholin family wasn't considered a prime contender for the highprince throne--until he took it for himself.

[–]Enasor 8 points 2 months ago 

His branch of the Kholin family? Does this imply there are other branches of the Kholin family? Meaning, there are other Kholins elsewhere?

[–]mistbornAuthor 22 points 2 months ago 

Well, not as many as there once were...

[–]Enasor 4 points 2 months ago 

Meaning Gavilar killed them? Or had Dalinar kill them?

[–]uchoo786 2 points 2 months ago 

So if I'm understanding this correctly, before Gavilar's branch of the Kholin family started their conquest of Alethkar they conquered Kholinar?

[–]mistbornAuthor 16 points 2 months ago 

Yup. (There's some minor mention of this in Book Three, I believe.)

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Aryanath

[Zea mays]

14 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

The Highstorm at the end of WoR wasn't supposed to happen, though. The Stormfather threw a Highstorm at the Everstorm in direct response to it. That doesn't necessarily poke holes in the hypothesis: Odium could have been well aware of how the Stormfather would react to the first Everstorm, and it is only now that he needs to time Everstorms and Highstorms to coincide. We'll have to see.

If i remember right, The parshendi transformed into Stormform during the last highstorm before the weeping began.

[Alderant]

3 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

If i remember right, The parshendi transformed into Stormform during the last highstorm before the weeping began.

You are correct. The Everstorm was summoned by the Parshendi already in stormform, and the Stormfather brought an abnormally-timed highstorm during the Weeping in order to cleanse the Shattered Plains of the aftermath.

23 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

theory time: the voidsperns want to repeat what Eshonai did with the Parshendi, a mass conversion into stormform. The uncertain assumtion I am relying on here is that a highstorm is needed in order to summon stormspren en masse.

Keep in mind that the Parshendi had captured stormspren as well prior to their conversion. They mentioned during the Eshonai segments of WoR that they had found a more reliable method of transformation during the storms by capturing spren within gems, taking those gems into the storm, and then attuning the proper rhythms. They weren't risking someone going into mateform or whatever by going out en masse into the storm and hoping to attract the stormspren. I think you might be along a good track, though. It's possible that the yellow Voidspren is trying to get the Parshment to Kholinar in anticipation of the next Everstorm strike, or perhaps through the calling of more of her kind of spren to spark a transformation into another form.

42 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

~“Shubreth-son-Mashalan, Sunmaker, the Hierocracy.....”

Is the shin-like name sunmaker’s name or is it a Shin conqueror?

I took this to mean that this was a Shin conqueror predating the Sunmaker. They mentioned Shin invasions in some of the earlier chapters.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Adolin's attitude towards Gaz and Shallan's guards reminds me of Lift with her oath of remembrance- hello edgedancer adolin! Also the more I see of him the more I am convinced that if he were real I would have the most massive crush on him, hes just such a great human

[vividox]

1 hour ago, Duke of Lizards said:

“Adolin, dear,” she said, finally pulling the blanket back down to her shoulders, “I could literally survive being stabbed with a sword through the chest. I think I’ll be fine with some ruffians in the market.”

I think Shallan is getting a little bold with this thought process and it worries me.  As someone stated above, she has already said something along these lines and I'm concerned about this attitude.  Girl, your healing abilities are only as good as the amount of Stormlight that you possess.  Don't get cocky.

Definitely agree with your concerns here, but I get the sense this is more just foreshadowing to Jasnah's return, since Shallan eye-witnessed her being stabbed in the chest. 

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Duke of Lizards said:

“Adolin, dear,” she said, finally pulling the blanket back down to her shoulders, “I could literally survive being stabbed with a sword through the chest. I think I’ll be fine with some ruffians in the market.”

I think Shallan is getting a little bold with this thought process and it worries me.  As someone stated above, she has already said something along these lines and I'm concerned about this attitude.  Girl, your healing abilities are only as good as the amount of Stormlight that you possess.  Don't get cocky.

At least not near the end of the weeping. Wait the first highstorm for that.

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

The Highstorm at the end of WoR wasn't supposed to happen, though. The Stormfather threw a Highstorm at the Everstorm in direct response to it. That doesn't necessarily poke holes in the hypothesis: Odium could have been well aware of how the Stormfather would react to the first Everstorm, and it is only now that he needs to time Everstorms and Highstorms to coincide. We'll have to see.

He doesn't have to time anything. Highstorms travel westward, the everstorm travels eastward, they are bound to meet somewhere. He only needs timing if he wants them to meet somewhere specific.

1 hour ago, Aryanath said:

Although I cannot find the specific instance of where I heard/read this, I recall that someone said that Brandon once mentioned that the Kholin branch to which Dalinar and Gavilar belonged to usurped Kholinar from the main branch of the family, or something. Dalinar's tale about finding his sword master's master's master "after we captured Kholinar," confirms some sort of conquest was made. I would appreciate it if someone could shed some further light on all this, or if someone has a WOB on this. I also wonder if something happened to Dalinar's parents early on that spurred him and his brother to conquest. Gavilar is obviously leading the Kholins at a young age: what happened to the father? And is it strange that in young Dalinar's recollections, he thinks little of his parents. There's some mystery here. 

Maybe their parents died young of natural causes and brandon isn't mentioning them to avoid cluttering the narrative. there are already enough loose threads as it is. if gavilar had killed his parents to take power, I think someone would have remarked on it

[JoyBlu]

On 10/10/2017 at 8:42 AM, SLNC said:

Because it is enough. I mean, Ialai already must suspect Adolin. And she knows him.

"Oh, we'll keep this going, Adolin. Unless you confess." I can already imagine it. Adolin is not the kind of guy, who let's innocents die for him.

I don’t understand why anyone would suspect Adolin as Sadeas’s murderer. I get why “everyone” in Dalinar’s camp would be suspect — but not why Adolin would be singled out. 

On 10/10/2017 at 8:46 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

True, and I understand the motive for the first murder, on Vedekar Perel. It is the second one, on the barmaid, which I can't understand. Adolin doesn't know about it, it has nothing to do with him or Sadeas directly, and is unnecessary detailed and complex for Ialais goal. Something else must be behind this.

The more people who are murdered in the same manner  — then all the murderes will be blamed on one person. (Most likely the person who killed Sadeas  @SLNC I liked your thoughts on Ialai response to Sadeas death. 

On 10/10/2017 at 9:00 AM, SLNC said:

Because to keep up those copy-cat murders, they have to take every murder they can.

Yes, Adolin doesn't know about it yet, but all they need to do is tell him, that there was another murder. I think, that "Ialai needing to be convinced" was just a stalling tactic. To get another murder going. To show, that they have the means and the will to keep going with copying them... unless Adolin confesses.

Ialai must be thinking, I can't prove that Adolin killed Torol, but I don't need any proof. Just pressure him into confessing.

Again — what evidence is there against Adolin other than he belongs to house Dalinar? She may suspect Adolin — but why? 

On 10/10/2017 at 9:10 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Hmm... those are good points. I'm not convinced though. The exactness of the murders... why do you have to confuse me? I'll stay in the Unmade/monster camp for now, but Ialai/Mraize works better than I first thought.

Edit: How is Ialai supposed to know Adolin killed Sadeas though?

Please, some one answer @Toaster Retribution Question. I wanna know too.

On 10/10/2017 at 9:17 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

I might be biased for Mraize, but I wonder if he really is that easy to kill. He is a Worldhopper, and doesn't seem to be scared in the least of Shallan when she points Pattern at him in WoR.

So I know that Mraize is a world hopper because you guys told me. (I read Stormlight before I read any other Sanderson books — now I’ve read all his published stuff and understand the worldhopping thing a little bit) also Coopermind states that he is. How do we know that Mraize is a world hopper? Was that a WoB or should I have gleaned that from reading on my own? Can someone please point me to the evidence? Do we know who he is was in other books? And what his original planet was?

 

@StormingTexan @Darkness @Erunion

As for Zahel, I too assumed he has thousands of breaths in reserve and was subsisting on storm light while on Roshar    He may have to use one this week — but no big deal, right? He should be up so many levels it shouldn’t make a difference  

 

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by JoyBlu
Spelling

[Guest]

 @JoyBlu Simply because Adolin showed open hostility against Torol Sadeas. In the end, it's not important though. Ialai just wants to get back at the Kholins - or more specifically Dalinar. Attacking Adolin is easier and achieves the same.

[Alderant]

23 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

So I know that Mraize is a world hopper because you guys told me. (I read Stormlight before I read any other Sanderson books — now I’ve read all his published stuff and understand the worldhopping thing a little bit) also Coopermind states that he is. How do we know that Mraize is a world hopper? Was that a WoB or should I have gleaned that from reading on my own? Can someone please point me to the evidence? Do we know who he is was in other books? And what his original planet was?

During Shallan's first encounter with Mraize, there are some artifacts in the scene that are very clearly from other worlds (don't have WoR in front of me to tell you just what, maybe someone else can do that), plus 

Spoiler

Iyatil's mask is awfully similar to the masks the people from the other continent of Scadrial wear.

23 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

On 10/10/2017 at 11:10 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Hmm... those are good points. I'm not convinced though. The exactness of the murders... why do you have to confuse me? I'll stay in the Unmade/monster camp for now, but Ialai/Mraize works better than I first thought.

Edit: How is Ialai supposed to know Adolin killed Sadeas though?

Please, some one answer @Toaster Retribution Question. I wanna know too.

I don't think it would be a far stretch for Ialai to suspect Adolin. Adolin was well-known by this point to be a firebrand and was also well-known to hate Sadeas for his role at the Tower in WoK. I've said this before, but it's possible--not likely, but possible--that in his efforts to ensure Dalinar was undermined, he and Ialai had worked up a contingency should he goad Adolin (or any of the Kholins) too far. Sadeas took particular interest in pushing Adolin's buttons, and I can't help feeling that that might have been an attempt to get at Dalinar--bring down the prized son and force Dalinar to reconsider his opposition. I'm inclined to think at this point he targeted Adolin specifically, knowing he could goad him into something rash...I don't know that he intended his own death, but the idea isn't far-fetched, and if Ialai was privy to this maneuvering (which she most likely was, considering how close they were), she could reasonably assume Sadeas pushed Adolin too far and is now working to undermine the Kholins and get her revenge at the same time.

This is largely conjecture, however, and there's only bits and pieces of text to support it, so it's kind of your own choice what you believe.

Edit: Dangit @SLNC, you beat me to the punch.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Alderant

[Guest]

@Alderant

Your answer is more comprehensive though. It is more or less in line of my line of thinking in that regard.

[kari-no-sugata]

4 hours ago, Alderant said:

I think she is being confronted by her pain more often, yes, but I don't think she's really facing it. She's just running from it whenever possible, whether that be through a persona, or alcohol, or losing herself in her studies. But yes, it is definitely coming up more often.

I think her relationship with Pattern seemingly becoming more normal (compared to her first chapter in OB) is a good sign that she is starting to get over her pain at least (though this is another tricky subject that is quite open to interpretation). Initially Pattern seemed quite concerned. If he doesn't bring up the "kill me and get a replacement" option again then that would be a good sign.

 

4 hours ago, Alderant said:

It is indeed a complex topic. Mental illness is never easy. I don't think she wishes to be unhappy or in pain either--in fact, I think she desperately wants to be happy and pain-free, which is why she so desperately avoids thinking about her pain. And we've seen it in other media that when someone learns they have supernatural powers, they do get foolhardy and think "I'm invincible!" to a degree. I don't know. Maybe you're right and she will connect the dots between her resilience and Jasnah possibly surviving, but I just don't think she's made that connection yet.

Actually, it's not just Shallan. Anyone who knows what happened to Jasnah and knows that Radiants could survive such a thing could make the same guess. If we see Shallan raise the subject herself I guess it would either be in a scenario where she confesses her past sins to someone or when Jasnah returns.

[JoyBlu]

@Alderant & @SLNC 

thank you both for your responses. I guess I see where you are coming from. I didn’t really think before about Sadeas pushing Adolin to get at Dalinar and Adolin responding “stronger” than expected. I just saw the whole encounter where Sadeas was murdered as a random coincidence that no one could track the killer.  Not that the murder was random — but the opportunity to murder was random and unexpected— therefore less likely to be found out. I could see Ialai trying to frame Adolin just to make life hard for Dalinar. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by JoyBlu

[Starla]

I’m confused about what the everstorm has done to the parshmen. I assume they have bonded non-void spren. If this is the case, why were they transformed by the everstorm, but never by a highstorm? Does the everstorm provide some sort of healing that restores their ability to bond spren? Does it also carry the normal “good” Listener spren in addition to voidspren? This is probably all RAFO, but I am curious if anyone has insights I’ve missed.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If we see Shallan raise the subject herself I guess it would either be in a scenario where she confesses her past sins to someone or when Jasnah returns.

My thoughts as well. But since we haven't seen any textual evidence of this realization yet, I'm disinclined to think anyone has thought of this...yet. Certainly it would be quite possible for people to discover this, but we have a lot of out-of-world knowledge most of the characters don't have.

 

3 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think her relationship with Pattern seemingly becoming more normal (compared to her first chapter in OB) is a good sign that she is starting to get over her pain at least (though this is another tricky subject that is quite open to interpretation). Initially Pattern seemed quite concerned. If he doesn't bring up the "kill me and get a replacement" option again then that would be a good sign.

I agree, mostly. I believe she is coming to grips with Pattern himself, but she is still parsing Pattern, the Spren, and Pattern, the Blade as two separate things. Her relationship with Pattern and her relationship with Adolin are the only things about her that I truly see as "getting better", though, and like you said, defining "getting over pain" is quite difficult. I don't view pain as gotten over simply because one is aware of it--I see it as forward momentum through that pain to the eventual understanding that lays beyond, e.g. "I understand that although my pain hurts, it was a necessary part of my experiences and has shaped who I am, and I am better for it." That is someone that, to me, has fully gotten over their pain, and right now I see Shallan still shying back from the pain rather than moving through it, which is why I say she hasn't begun getting over it yet.

1 minute ago, Starla said:

I’m confused about what the everstorm has done to the parshmen. I assume they have bonded non-void spren. If this is the case, why were they transformed by the everstorm, but never by a highstorm? Does the everstorm provide some sort of healing that restores their ability to bond spren? Does it also carry the normal “good” Listener spren in addition to voidspren? This is probably all RAFO, but I am curious if anyone has insights I’ve missed.

My best guess is that the Everstorm carried some kind of Investiture separate from the normal stormlight that was able to bridge the broken connection to their Identity...it's probably an RAFO like you said though.

[Starla]

11 minutes ago, Alderant said:

My best guess is that the Everstorm carried some kind of Investiture separate from the normal stormlight that was able to bridge the broken connection to their Identity...it's probably an RAFO like you said though.

Maybe the storm carries "voidlight," which heals the connection, whereas stormlight does not. That sounds ominous, even they bond a good spren. 

[Toaster Retribution]

@JoyBlu I saw you asking about Mraizes worldhopper status, but there is a WoB (apologies if someone already posted it):

Quote

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

Is Mraize a worldhopper? 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Yes, he's been to a few planets, highly supervised by his babsk.

 

[AbsentKeeper]

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I'll go ahead and say it:

I don't think Sah has the right to be as upset as he is at the Alethi.

Obviously, I'm not saying that it was right to enslave them in the first place (however that was done), but we see several times throughout WoK and WoR that they couldn't have taken freedom even if it was offered.

When talking about the first meeting with the Parshendi, Navani says that people have tried setting Parshman free in the wild, and they just stand there until someone else comes and gives them orders. Similarily, when Shallan speaks to the Parshmen on her way to the Shattered Plains, she notices that one of them looks uncomfortable when she asks him if he would rather be free.

So, while I have felt uncomfortable about how the Parshmen are treated since the beginning, I think it's going to be extremely detrimental toward any peace efforts if very many of the newly freed Parshmen share Sah's attitue about humans, especially since it seems like they were genuinely incapable of living normally in slaveform, and the humans had no idea how to restore them if they wanted to.

Edit: it just seems like a case of being mad at someone for something that happened before they were born, which is common enough in real life.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[CaptainRyan]

8 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I'll go ahead and say it:

I don't think Sah has the right to be as upset as he is at the Alethi.

Obviously, I'm not saying that it was right to enslave them in the first place (however that was done), but we see several times throughout WoK and WoR that they couldn't have taken freedom even if it was offered.

When talking about the first meeting with the Parshendi, Navani says that people have tried setting Parshman free in the wild, and they just stand there until someone else comes and gives them orders. Similarily, when Shallan speaks to the Parshmen on her way to the Shattered Plains, she notices that one of them looks uncomfortable when she asks him if he would rather be free.

So, while I have felt uncomfortable about how the Parshmen are treated since the beginning, I think it's going to be extremely detrimental toward any peace efforts if very many of the newly freed Parshmen share Sah's attitue about humans, especially since it seems like they were genuinely incapable of living normally in slaveform, and the humans had no idea how to restore them if they wanted to.

Edit: it just seems like a case of being mad at someone for something that happened before they were born, which is common enough in real life.

I think there is some validity to this claim. There are a few caveats (some of them rather large caveats) that muddy the waters (imo).

1. Emotionally accepting something that you intellectually know can be difficult, if not impossible. Even if these Parshmen could be convinced that they would have all died off without Alethi intervention it would still be difficult to emotionally process that.

2. More telling, the Alethi were not selfless saviours of the Parshmen. As Sah said in one of the chapters, the Alethi ignored Parshmen familial ties and would break up families for profit. There are plenty of examples of Parshmen being used in horrible ways, being treated in horrible ways, etc. Generations of abuse and misuse seem to more than justify their anger and distrust.

3. The Parshmen might not accept that the Alethi did not know how to fix them. Remember, in-world people have decidedly less information than we, as readers, do. Sah mentions that if the Alethi capture them he is afraid that they will change them back into the mindless slave form. He might also think, rightly or wrongly, that there have been people who knew what was going on and did nothing. Gavilar obviously understood what happened and he did nothing to help the slaveform Parshmen that we know of.

[AbsentKeeper]

2 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I think there is some validity to this claim. There are a few caveats (some of them rather large caveats) that muddy the waters (imo).

1. Emotionally accepting something that you intellectually know can be difficult, if not impossible. Even if these Parshmen could be convinced that they would have all died off without Alethi intervention it would still be difficult to emotionally process that.

2. More telling, the Alethi were not selfless saviours of the Parshmen. As Sah said in one of the chapters, the Alethi ignored Parshmen familial ties and would break up families for profit. There are plenty of examples of Parshmen being used in horrible ways, being treated in horrible ways, etc. Generations of abuse and misuse seem to more than justify their anger and distrust.

3. The Parshmen might not accept that the Alethi did not know how to fix them. Remember, in-world people have decidedly less information than we, as readers, do. Sah mentions that if the Alethi capture them he is afraid that they will change them back into the mindless slave form. He might also think, rightly or wrongly, that there have been people who knew what was going on and did nothing. Gavilar obviously understood what happened and he did nothing to help the slaveform Parshmen that we know of.

These are all good points, and it's completely understandable that he is upset about it. I just hope that not too many of the Parshmen jump to these same conclusions...

I don't think we know for sure, but I know many have theorized that Gavilar actually did want to return the Parshmen to normal, albiet for ulterior motives.

[CaptainRyan]

1 minute ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I know many have theorized that Gavilar actually did want to return the Parshmen to normal

I think Gavilar says outright he wants to so that the Heralds will be forced to return.

My point is that, even knowing the Parshmen were enslaved, Gavilar did nothing to help them in the moment (that we know of). We know of no efforts to ease their burdens, to protect them from abuse, etc. In some ways, Gavilar is worse than others because he had knowledge of their predicament but did nothing to help them. To Sah, and other Parshmen who think this way, it shows that the Alethi don't care about the Parshmen except to use them as cheap labor.

[JoyBlu]

@Alderant & @SLNC 

thank you both for your responses. I guess I see where you are coming from. I didn’t really think before about Sadeas pushing Adolin to get at Dalinar and Adolin responding “stronger” than expected. I just saw the whole encounter where Sadeas was murdered as a random coincidence that no one could track the killer.  Not that the murder was random — but the opportunity to murder was random and unexpected— therefore less likely to be found out. I could see Ialai trying to frame Adolin just to make life hard for Dalinar. 

[The Technovore]

On 10/10/2017 at 8:09 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

It's official people! Even Gavilar believes in the power of the high ground!

 

It's over Aladar! I have the high ground! No don't do it- " *slices through Aladar's legs and leaves him to die in the highstorm*

On 10/10/2017 at 7:50 AM, redbishop said:

Murder aside, he's just a great human being.

 

This sentence right here is why I love this fandom.

On 10/10/2017 at 9:10 AM, Aon Ati said:

"...and one of them will betray us." from Way of Kings. STOP SCARING ME! I don't want Kaladin to be the bad guy!

On 10/10/2017 at 9:29 AM, Calderis said:

That wasn't my point at all. It's not just going to be slaves and people who feel disadvantaged. 

It's all going to about choice. The things Kaladin is doing are for the right reasons. He recognizes that yes, these people are angry, but they're angry for reasons that are justified and that the humans here are wrong. What he's learning needs to be learned. 

Dalinar is operating under the idea that all of these Parshmen are Evil. How much different do you think this would be if instead of try to set up the world to kill an enemy, they were looking to the Azir and trying to negotiate and create a lasting peace? 

The more brutal the fighting is to start, the more of the Parshmen will willing throw themselves into Voidforms. What Kaladin is doing is the only way to try and prevent that. They need to be seen for the people they are, and have their Autonomy and dignity both built up and respected. 

I thought something very along these same lines. I think the Parshendi (parshmen... parshpeople?) are just as victimized by Odium as humanity. The Parshendi on the Plains didn't turn over to Odium until humanity left them with no other real options, then he just nudged them in the right direction. I feel like the same thing will happen everywhere else, like in Frankenstein (nice guy tries to fit in, but then gets bullied to the point of breaking until he actually does turn monster.) Some disaster is going to happen in Azir, and the Parshpeople will then turn over in an attempt to defend themselves. Or the Voidspren could just be leading them into a trap where they can be turned.

 

I mean... I feel like Odium orchestrated both sides to create the Everstorm. Fueling natural human failings with war-lust and the Thrill, he caused them to push against the Parshendi until they were desperate. Odium can't directly turn humans (maybe, I think), so instead he influences them to put the Parshendi in a place where he can turn them. What's to stop him from doing the same all over the world? Humanity is scared. The Everstorm is destroying their cities, and out of the ashes come a sentient people that used to be their slaves. How are they going to treat them? How far will they push them? When will they push them too far, and cause them to lose themselves as surely as they were lost before?

[maxal]

Concerning the discussion with respect to Ialai and her potential plans for Adolin, I see many jumped in today and I thought this extract from WoR was appropriate.

Quote

 

Chapter 29

Sadeas taped his finger against the side of his seat. "What was it you said about duelists? That they're brash? Hotheaded?"

"Yes. And?"

"Adolin is both of those things and more," Sadeas said softly, considering. "He can be goaded, pushed around, brought to anger. He has passion like his father, but he controls it less securely.".

Can I get him right up to the cliff's edge, Sadeas thought, then shove him off?

"Stop discouraging people from fighting him," Sadeas said. "Don't encourage them to fight him, either. Step back. I want to see how this develops."

"That sounds dangerous," Ialai said. "That boy is a weapon, Torol."

"True," Sadeas said, standing, "but you are rarely cut by a weapon if you are the one holding it hilt."

 

Torol and Ialai's plan has been to goat, provoke, then harm Adolin in order to get to his father. There is another quote I couldn't find where Sadeas thinks of hurting Dalinar where it would hurt the most, likely referring to his son. Harm Adolin, disarm Adolin, kill Adolin and you harm Dalinar, you disarm Dalinar. You do not kill him, but you severely cripple him.

Ialai once warned Sadeas about Adolin, she warned him the boy was dangerous. She knew her husband was poking a caged whitespine hoping it leash would hold on.

It really isn't such a stretch to think she might spontaneously blame Adolin for Sadeas being dead, even without proof. It wouldn't have been hard for her to find out Adolin has been a part of the searching parties exploring the neighboring pieces. It would be extraordinarily easy for her to make the leap and think, this time around, her husband pushed too hard and cut himself. Even if she isn't thinking of Adolin, we know Bridge 4 were the ones responsible for the scouting effort. She wouldn't be called cunning if her first thoughts didn't go towards someone from Dalinar's camp being the culprit.

Even if she has no proof, even if she doesn't really think Adolin or anyone from Dalinar's camp did it, even if she believes in a chance murderer, she would still try to use it as an opportunity. And what does Ialai want? Well, we do not know this yet, but plausible guesses would be: revenge and political relevance now her partner is dead. She certainly isn't going to side with Dalinar, hence she will oppose him. What better way to do so then to continue dear Torol's work? 

Harm Adolin, disarm Adolin, kill Adolin and then she harms Dalinar, she disarms Dalinar. She does not kill him, but she cripples both his power and his leadership while asserting hers.

My bet is this is exactly what Ialai is trying to accomplish. The details are still unclear, but her end game could very well be it.

 

[JoyBlu]

@maxal thank you for that Torol and Ialai quote. @Toaster Retribution Thank you for the WoB

I didn’t realize that Sadeas’s death by Adolin was foreshadowed  — but it sounds like it was hinted at.

I was thinking about Mraize being with Ialai.  What if she is going to ask Adolin if she can have Mraize join Adolin’s investigation? Have a representative on the team? Do avoid bias . Adolin would have a hard time denying her request.  Then it would be Shallan, Adolin, & Mraize working together  Then Mraize & Shallan could interact publicly in Urithiru without causing suspicion. That could get interesting. I really don’t believe Ialai knows who her husbands killer was — other than suspecting someone in Dalinar’s camp. 

 

As as to how much Ialai knows about the copycat killings (I’m guessing she is behind them) and the about the Ghostbloods (she is too well informed to not know anything about them) and about Mraize’s relationship with Shallan/Veil is yet to be known .

 

 

[flying_shadow]

On 10/10/2017 at 6:04 PM, Extesian said:

braized

Braize? Hmm...