[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Dlyol said:

@maxal It is, of course, the case that nothing forces this plot line to occur as these things have tended to do. Indeed, it may be that the drop in communications is due to a Revolution as opposed to, for example, Odium's machinations. I was suggesting, however, you were overly certain that Elhokar is hated. It strikes me as entirely plausible that a King returning born by a mythical weapon of a deity is the sort of thing that empowers small c conservative pro-monarchy voices in the rioters. From there, it wouldn't be hard for someone of even Elhokar's level of competence to restore order. While the series so far has been awash with low-level resentment of social order, I'm yet to be persuaded what we have seen so far is a pre-revolutionary Alethkar

And I am persuaded what we are seeing are the first step of a pre-revolutionary Alethkar and no some small scale rebellion against the queen. Alethkar hasn't united peacefully, it was devastated by war. The people suffered war, the suffered the Kholins on the pretense the kingdom they will built will be better. It isn't. Is it so hard to imagine the people are actually rebelling against the ruling class? Is it so far-fetched to think they do not care much about the king and they won't bath in his glory upon his mighty return?

The story hasn't been written yet and, for myself, I will not take for granted the people are merely angry at the queen. I will not take for granted Elhokar walking into the city is all it needs to stop rebelling. 

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Adolin is stuck in the tower, same as everyone. And even if he wasn't, what do you expect him to do ? go help with the construction ? he'll get reports via spanreed and send his orders the same way, when the oathgate is opened, he can come and go as he pleases, as the portal is in his city. And restructuring and training their armies is not wasting him away, it's giving him an important task fitting his rank and qualifications. The exploring and micromanaging were Adolin's idea, to get his mind away from his current situation.

Take his battalion to Kholinar and go investigate what is happening out there. They have lost all communication with Kholinar. It makes sense to send someone out there, it makes no sense to send someone unable to command people even if he is the king. While training armies is not wasting time, it remains a task someone else could do: it doesn't need Adolin's specific skills to be efficient, not when there are more important things to take care of.

This text makes me yawn even more when thinking of Highprince Adolin's story arc: sending reports through spanreeds? Sending orders while he remains in Urithiru? I am sorry but I am failing at getting excited over this prospect. 

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

As i said, they will soon realise that there is no time for games, they don't have time for them, and the author doesn't either. But yes, decisions will need to be made, some "boring" meetings will have to take place, what would you rather have him do ? Travel to some forgotten mountain on a quest to find his true self ? please. Adolin will still have to deal with what he did, and get over his insecurities, an eventual ascension changes nothing to that.

Well, Elhokar just expressed that need, and Navani seemed to think it fair. Nobody mentioned it before because no one paused to think about it,and that's pretty telling to me. What Elhokar did was reach out to the man who neatly sidelined him in an attempt to get a workable solution to the whole usurpation problem.

And Adolin's character doesn't need to be the one taking care of the "boring" meetings: this is supposed to be Dalinar's role. What I am concerned about is optimum character development and I honestly do not see what this specific plot arc does for Adolin's character. What else he is supposed to do? This is up to the author, but I thought there were better options than shoe-horn him into the one position making sure he will never have the opportunity to grow nor evolve nor change nor do anything really interesting apart from exactly what he has been doing for two books. My personal opinion is the Highprince arc is not interesting for Adolin's character: it could be interesting for another character (say Kaladin), but not for him, it is about the equivalent of the static arc. He has nothing to learn by becoming a Highprince, nothing to overcome, no adversity, worst he ends up in a position which makes sure he will never rebel, never leave, never break.

The ascension changes everything: the more responsibilities Adolin has, the less likely he is to face whatever is ailing him. This is just how his character is built: so long as he has something else to do, he will NEVER deal with them.

If Elhokar is not smart enough to create a plan to usurp Dalinar, then he isn't smart enough to provide a workable solution. I maintain my point, either Elhokar is being manipulated by other people, either he has master mind a plan or either he has just screwed up to an all new level. Whichever way, I am not buying Elhokar being honest.

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

We know nothing of Elhokar's abilities, he's been kept away from any meaningfull role in the war effort, all we've been allowed to see of him is the foolish extent of his paranoia and his naivety, both are flaws that can be overcome. I don't expect him to suddenly dazzle us with his brilliance, but i believe he will stop letting any passing lighteye make a fool out of him, and start using the brain he's got in his skull for something other than whining.

The rebellion is against the queen nof the king, for all the people know, he's been busy avenging their old king, fighting evil parshmen who turned out to be voidbringers. The author can spin this any way he wants. 

No one is born a good leader, Elhokar probably spent his life believing that by virtue of his high birth he already had the requisite qualities to be one, now he is starting to realise that he in fact isn't, and actually needs to better himself if he has any hope of becoming one.I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

We know Elhokar is unable to lead, is unable to take command of people. We know he isn't a quick thinker, when in the heat of the action, he either becomes indecisive or temperamental. We know he is very self-centered and has one gigantic ego. None of these flaws are going to disappear within a few days: Elhokar is not going to start to become a strong leader just because he wants to. This isn't how it works. You do not grow into a leader: it is either you are born to be one or not. Elhokar just doesn't have it. It is why is thinking a step by step procedure will help him: he has no instinct, no abilities there. It may be he has other abilities, but leadership is just not one of them.

I am also somewhat amused at seeing Elhokar's brain being so highly praised when he has yet to use it. I am very amused at thinking he suddenly has the ability to lead an army into Kholinar to free it when he couldn't lead one chamsfiend hunt and caused the death of 50 men because of his ego. I have a hard time he will suddenly manage to do better because he has yet taken another foolhardy decision in an attempt to be seen as great.

I also have zero desire to see Elhokar grow into a leader: I find it an implausible contrived story arc. 

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Manipulative liar ? Elhokar couldn't maneuver a fly out a window, he never tried to undermine Dalinar, his paranoia led him to grow suspicious of everyone around him, which in turn led to his 'test'. That one on one moment you seem so willing to discard was the first glimpse we had of Elhokar's true character, his budding self awareness and the lengths he'd be willing to go to be worthy of his title. 

And the point was never for him to abdicate, but to put clear lines separating his authority from Dalinar's, while allowing the latter to keep the upperhand as far as surviving the desolation is concerned.

He is a manipulative liar: one doesn't need to be smart to be one. One merely needs to be spoiled and to interface with people willing to give them the sky in confession because they feel guilty towards them. Elhokar faking an assassination attempt was him being a manipulative liar: it took a full book for Dalinar to see through it, so why is it Dalinar ought to have seen it now? Dalinar is willing to give ANYTHING to Elhokar because of his guilt and spoiled children knows how to manipulate parents.

The lengths he is willing to go? He expects to walk into Kholinar and have people acclaim him: he has no idea what he is stepping into. I'll believe in Elhokar so claim reform on the day it actually happens. So far, all he has done is get Dalinar to give up power. It was smart, I'l give him that: he outmaneuver Dalinar, but I am not convinced it was pure happenstance.

Truth is Elhokar will never be a good king, he will never serve this function appropriately. He is not the future of Altethkar. They did not put the right kid onto the throne.

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Can't believe i'm here defending the guy, never even spared him a second thought while reading, thought it was transparent ...

I am always astonished to read so much support for Elhokar's character. People always praise him while arguing Adolin ought to turn evil: I never understood and no I am not buying it. We have to remember who's perspective we are reading and it was Dalinar's. Dalinar doesn't have the capacity to imagine Elhokar trying to undermine him: he reads him as transparent, as genuine, as innocent, as a poor lost little lamb. It doesn't mean he is, it means Dalinar views him this way. He has never been able to be honest when it comes to Elhokar which is about the only smart thing Elhokar said in his life: I did agree with him here. I just do not believe his intentions are as pure as Dalinar thinks they are.

[Dlyol]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

And I am persuaded what we are seeing are the first step of a pre-revolutionary Alethkar and no some small scale rebellion against the queen. Alethkar hasn't united peacefully, it was devastated by war. The people suffered war, the suffered the Kholins on the pretense the kingdom they will built will be better. It isn't. Is it so hard to imagine the people are actually rebelling against the ruling class? Is it so far-fetched to think they do not care much about the king and they won't bath in his glory upon his mighty return?

The story hasn't been written yet and, for myself, I will not take for granted the people are merely angry at the queen. I will not take for granted Elhokar walking into the city is all it needs to stop rebelling. 

Setting aside the fact that Alethkar prior to the riots had neither of the two main pre-requisites for revolution which are economic crisis (although it is likely the Everstorm will cause one) and widespread dissemination of a new idea set which is hostile to existing social arrangements, for arguments sake I will say that Kholinar is now Paris in 1791. Revolutions are not ideologically uniform things. The darkeyes of Kholinar are not a lumpenproletariat. All Brandon has to do is write a perfectly plausible interlude demonstrating that many members of the revolutionary class are increasingly uncomfortable with going so directly against Vorinism and monarchy to introduce the idea of the potential for a Thermidor and then have Elhokar return by Honorblade. Suddenly those people are faced with a king carrying a symbol of their religion that grants him mystic powers and you don't think that those people already nervous might have a change of heart? Sure, the Jacobins of Kholinar (to continue the analogy) would continue in their path but surely enough people would feel the change of weather for Revolutions to run out of the most precious currency of revolutions - momentum. Futhermore, this course would make Elhokar think he did something worthwile (misguidedly but still) and could give him the self-confidence he so sorely lacks. None of this requires them to bask in his glory just certain people making rational decisions in their own self-interest

As for your claims about Alethkar's unification it is perfectly true that it was unified by war but at what point did the Kholins make any promises to darkeyes. Their's was an entirely socially conservative revolution - from the point of view of the average Alethi peasant or urban labourer one set of lighteyes replaced another. Unless I missed it did they promise the end of seignurial dues or lighteyed legal privileges and then fail to deliver? I'm not pretending that the Kholins aren't an oppressive regime but the relevant factor in causing a revolution is not oppressiveness but change in oppressiveness - people can abide a lot its when things get a lot worse that revolutions occur. Things really haven't - indeed if anything the unification of Alethkar and end to war on its soil probably has led to a slight economic improvement in recent years. It may be that they hate the Kholins specifically- my read is that most don't care about them except as just another set of lighteyed overlords who they have been suffering under for centuries. For every Kaladin we've seen we've seen a Gaz or the residents of Hearthstone - accepting the social hierachy and trying to make their own way within it.

Brandon understands all of this. Thats why (whether consciously or not) he immitated Lenin's theory of the Party as Revolutionary Vanguard with Kelsier's crew in Mistborn. So while yes, he may choose to take the Kholinar riots in the Paris 1791 direction (which I sought of also feel is so interesting a plot that it really should have been better prepared with characters to lead it etc) he could easily with all the facts that we know take it in another direction entirely. None of this is to take anything for granted. Rather the opposite. You have decided that Kholinar is in revolution, which it may well be, but is not certain and that the only possible endpoint of that revolution is a set of events that to fully explore the consequences thereof would require several books to themselves. I am suggesting that the riots could be limited in ideological scope and that that could lead to some character development for Elhokar.

p.s. On the Spanreeds, if they were merely cut to Urithiru I might be more persuaded that is revolutionary as it is we know that Hearthstone (and so presumably the rest of Alethkar) is cut off from Kholinar. That makes no sense in the grand darkeyed rising theory - why wouldn't they want to let the rest of their fellows know the Revolution was happening to spread the joyous news and recruit the rest of Alethkar to their camp

Edited September 24, 2017 by Dlyol
Thoughts on spanreed silence

[Rasha]

@Maxal,As @Dlyolsaid, you lack an understanding of how revolution happened in our world. Before the French Revolution happened in the full scale, there had been several uprisings in the century before. What were these uprisings asking for? The intervention of the king, so that their local Lords would behave more fairly when the harvest was bad (seems familiar, huh?)  Of course, they were quelled violently.

 

 

The French Revolution was started in Paris in 1789 (well, not really, it started when the king invoked a "general state assembly" in Versailles to reform the country) and it was mostly led by thinkers and members of a class called the small bourgeoisie that rallied the people for change. Change for what? Do they wanted to get rid of the king? No. Mostly they wanted to be more represented in politics, via a popular assembly. After the battle of La Bastille in Paris, they created a constitutional monarchy. The king himself would not lose his head until 1793,when he was convicted as a collaborator with the foreign invaders (England, Prussia and Austria). Without that, I am willing to bet France would have stayed a constitutional monarchy, just like the UK. 

The French revolution was only possible because there was a middle class between poor and nobles that gave us the tools to build a constitution and to have the ideas necessary to invent a regime different from a simple monarchy. They drew upon the ideas of thinkers going back to ancient Greece (democracy, how to vote, ad which system is best), ancient Rome (for the Res Publica, where the State is only an émanation of the people's will and interests) and Rousseau (Social contract, right to autodetermination). There were other thinkers and sources and different ideas, but I will not list them there. 

 

Roshar has nothing like that. No thinker ever questioned the monarchy (and survived to write publicly about it), no ancient idealozed civilization to draw from, no middle class riddled with ideas of liberty and auto determination, nothing. Roshar has been set-in stone for millenia, with frequent setbacks. The French Revolution has zero probability to happen in Roshar during a desolation with the setting Brandon gave us. There is just no time for it, and the birthing circumstances are simply not there. The only thing that MAY ressemble it is the way of kings, written by a king, which state that the king should serve its people. Not the most revolutionary manual. 

 

I will bet anything that the riots are either an intervention of Odium (directly or indirectly) or people asking for a change of Queen / governance, because people at the top just throw food to rot while the city starve. No democracy will be born there I am afraid. The social constructs are too set in stone for it to happen. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Rasha

[hypatia she/her]

About Elhokar's paranoia - yes, he had cut his own girth but wasn't there also someone manipulating his shardplate?

And wasn't it the deal that Dalinar was made the Highprince of War for his promise "to find out who is trying to kill you"?

I can't remember - do we now know who was trying to kill Elhokar before Graves and Moash?

Edited September 24, 2017 by hypatia

[Aleksiel]

Whether or not Elhokar has some grand scheme is his mind, he essentially persuaded Dalinar to give him the most powerful weapon in his possession - the Honorblade, so that Elhokar can retake the capital and open the Oathgate there. It looked completely sincere and innocent, but it may or may not be so. I do not think Dalinar would have even considered that if it wasn't for Elhokar's haste and insistence plus the pressure to answer him in front of a bunch of people.

[Darvys]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Take his battalion to Kholinar and go investigate what is happening out there. They have lost all communication with Kholinar. It makes sense to send someone out there, it makes no sense to send someone unable to command people even if he is the king. While training armies is not wasting time, it remains a task someone else could do: it doesn't need Adolin's specific skills to be efficient, not when there are more important things to take care of.

This text makes me yawn even more when thinking of Highprince Adolin's story arc: sending reports through spanreeds? Sending orders while he remains in Urithiru? I am sorry but I am failing at getting excited over this prospect. 

It would take him weeks to reach the capital on foot from the shattered plains, and weeks for any reinforcement he asks for to get there, so no, the smart move is to wait for the oathgate to be opened. 

What makes you yawn will happen but we won't need to see it, we don't follow characters through their whole day, he'll have plenty of time to get involved with the more important matters.

If Elhokar isn't suited to solve the Kholinar riot, then Adolin isn't much better, he's also nothing but a lighteyed prince taking part in the opression by your own take on the rebellion.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

And Adolin's character doesn't need to be the one taking care of the "boring" meetings: this is supposed to be Dalinar's role. What I am concerned about is optimum character development and I honestly do not see what this specific plot arc does for Adolin's character. What else he is supposed to do? This is up to the author, but I thought there were better options than shoe-horn him into the one position making sure he will never have the opportunity to grow nor evolve nor change nor do anything really interesting apart from exactly what he has been doing for two books. My personal opinion is the Highprince arc is not interesting for Adolin's character: it could be interesting for another character (say Kaladin), but not for him, it is about the equivalent of the static arc. He has nothing to learn by becoming a Highprince, nothing to overcome, no adversity, worst he ends up in a position which makes sure he will never rebel, never leave, never break.

The ascension changes everything: the more responsibilities Adolin has, the less likely he is to face whatever is ailing him. This is just how his character is built: so long as he has something else to do, he will NEVER deal with them.

This isn't much of a discussion if all you offer is the author will think of something better, i don't even think of it as an arc, his father has been neglecting his duties as Highprince for a while, Adolin and his officers were left in charge, all this will do is officialise the transition.

And you need to make up your minds, either the Highprince position is time consuming and will prevent Adolin from doing anything else of import, or it's a meaningless role that Dalinar can keep since the princedom runs itself ... The middle ground is where you'll find me, taking charge of the princedom will come with some responsibilities, but not nearly enough to chain Adolin down and restrict him to the role. 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

If Elhokar is not smart enough to create a plan to usurp Dalinar, then he isn't smart enough to provide a workable solution. I maintain my point, either Elhokar is being manipulated by other people, either he has master mind a plan or either he has just screwed up to an all new level. Whichever way, I am not buying Elhokar being honest.

We know Elhokar is unable to lead, is unable to take command of people. We know he isn't a quick thinker, when in the heat of the action, he either becomes indecisive or temperamental. We know he is very self-centered and has one gigantic ego. None of these flaws are going to disappear within a few days: Elhokar is not going to start to become a strong leader just because he wants to. This isn't how it works. You do not grow into a leader: it is either you are born to be one or not. Elhokar just doesn't have it. It is why is thinking a step by step procedure will help him: he has no instinct, no abilities there. It may be he has other abilities, but leadership is just not one of them.

I am also somewhat amused at seeing Elhokar's brain being so highly praised when he has yet to use it. I am very amused at thinking he suddenly has the ability to lead an army into Kholinar to free it when he couldn't lead one chamsfiend hunt and caused the death of 50 men because of his ego. I have a hard time he will suddenly manage to do better because he has yet taken another foolhardy decision in an attempt to be seen as great.

I also have zero desire to see Elhokar grow into a leader: I find it an implausible contrived story arc. 

I'll be really curious to know what inate qualities you believe make a person a born good leader or doomed to failure ... 

Elhokar is neither brilliant nor stupid, he is average, average can get you a long way if you're willing to put in the effort. What do you even think leading an army to Kholinar entails ? he's spent enough time around presumably great military minds to pick up what he needs to know to pull out a basic task like this, he won't be formulating intricate strategies, he'll be bringing order to a city in chaos, the Kholin army can do this in their sleep, he won't have to give a single order.

Anyway this will go nowhere, Elhokar will have to wait with everyone for the portal to be opened, unless Dalinar screws up and gives him the blade.

7 hours ago, maxal said:

He is a manipulative liar: one doesn't need to be smart to be one. One merely needs to be spoiled and to interface with people willing to give them the sky in confession because they feel guilty towards them. Elhokar faking an assassination attempt was him being a manipulative liar: it took a full book for Dalinar to see through it, so why is it Dalinar ought to have seen it now? Dalinar is willing to give ANYTHING to Elhokar because of his guilt and spoiled children knows how to manipulate parents.

The lengths he is willing to go? He expects to walk into Kholinar and have people acclaim him: he has no idea what he is stepping into. I'll believe in Elhokar so claim reform on the day it actually happens. So far, all he has done is get Dalinar to give up power. It was smart, I'l give him that: he outmaneuver Dalinar, but I am not convinced it was pure happenstance.

Truth is Elhokar will never be a good king, he will never serve this function appropriately. He is not the future of Altethkar. They did not put the right kid onto the throne.

I am always astonished to read so much support for Elhokar's character. People always praise him while arguing Adolin ought to turn evil: I never understood and no I am not buying it. We have to remember who's perspective we are reading and it was Dalinar's. Dalinar doesn't have the capacity to imagine Elhokar trying to undermine him: he reads him as transparent, as genuine, as innocent, as a poor lost little lamb. It doesn't mean he is, it means Dalinar views him this way. He has never been able to be honest when it comes to Elhokar which is about the only smart thing Elhokar said in his life: I did agree with him here. I just do not believe his intentions are as pure as Dalinar thinks they are.

Most human interactions can be perceived as munipulative, intent is what matters, Elhokar's was never to undermine his uncle, in the context of his paranoia, it makes sense to try anything to see who he can trust.

Elhokar was spoiled, yes, Dalinar's fault not his, as even Sadeas pointed out, doesn't make Elhokar evil, it just adds a hurdle to his path toward bettering himself.

I agree with you he is still lying to himself, he'll soon be desabused of the idea, and we'll have to wait and see how he'll take it, but if we're throwing our opinions around, then i think he'll surprise you and accept to set foot on the harder path.

For the flawed pov, i distance myself enough from the characters to not take their impressions at face value, so no,i don't believe  Elhokar is fooling me, i took in all his appearances  and put 1 and 1 together.

I find your comment about Adolin turning evil amusing, as i believe your theory about Elhokar walking this path nearly as baseless. The nearly part is why i'm willing to discuss it whereas i simply ignore the former.

 

[hypatia she/her]

Now I'm a little bit confused - where is Dalinar considering to give the Honorblade to Elhokar?

Does Elhokar even know about it?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

1 hour ago, hypatia said:

Now I'm a little bit confused - where is Dalinar considering to give the Honorblade to Elhokar?

Does Elhokar even know about it?

He hasn't exactly stated it, others are simply putting two and two together; they need a way to get the other places quickly and unlock the gates, but the only way to do that would be Gravitation style. As Kaladin is away, they do have the Windrunner Honourblade. I don't believe Dalinar has actually told anyone about it, from my recollection of WOR a d these beginning chapters, at to my knowledge he hasn't

[hypatia she/her]

@ParadoxicalZen

Thank you, this is like I remember, but I wasn't sure.

So there is nothing that indicates that Elhokar is manipulating Dalinar in giving him the Honorblade.

And I was confused because the text says Elhokar will wait for Kaladin as a way to fly and to open the Oathgate device in Kholinar.

Does anyone - except of us via WoB - know about the possibility to activate the Oathgate with a Honofblade?

[Frostlander]

This quote from Kaladin's return to Hearthstone is interesting in terms of an Alethi revolution:

Quote

“Will you tell the king?” Aric asked. “That storm ripped away four of our silos. We’ll be starving afore too long, with all these refugees and no food. When the highstorms start coming again, we won’t have half as many homes as we need.”

“I’ll tell Elhokar.” But Stormfather, the rest of the kingdom would be just as bad.

He needed to focus on the Voidbringers. He couldn’t report back to Dalinar until he had the Stormlight to fly home, so for now it seemed his most useful task would be to find out where the enemy was gathering, if he could.

3

In more rural areas, at least, Alethi seem to think that their king just needs to know what's going on so that he can help. (Humorously, Kaladin immediately starts thinking about communicating with Dalinar.) This may not necessarily reflect what urban Alethi think about Elhokar, but I don't think this was a casually dropped line. It seems more likely that Brandon wanted to remind us that at least some people saw Elhokar as king, and a potentially benevolent one, too.

[maxal she/her]

@Dlyol and @Rasha: While your posts were informative and entertaining, I would sate I am more verse within our own modern history than you are taking for granted. The difference is I do not believe modern day examples readily applies to the rebellion we have seen in Kholinar. We have read one chapter from the perspective of an Ardent being outraged at the waste of food and thought she ought to say something. We haven't read the viewpoints of any of the city people nor have we seen how the rebellion started. There are no ways to know if someone capable is leading them or if it just unorganized chaos as you are both suggesting. Merely because such character (a leader) has not been introduced does not mean he/she does not exist. I am willing to way and see what is truly happening out there.

I will thus advise caution in saying the rebellion will be quelled by having the king being involved. The fact it happened within our past doesn't guaranty it will happen within Alethkar. Also, the French Revolution was about one of the worst, stringent revolution which happened after centuries of abuse against a totalitarian system. It led to the Darkness and a large pan of French history most French I have talked to actually wish to forget happened. It reached an end somewhere around the time where Napoleon rose up to be named Emperor. I am unsure of the chronology here, but the Terror followed the Revolution which was followed by the Napoleon years where a French Emperor sought to conquer the world. It was drastic in itself and would be the topic of an entire fictional book series shall an author want to inspire himself from it. Whatever Brandon is planning is probably different in scope even if he may have drawn inspiration within the event itself.

England has also had its fair share of peasant rebellions which usually ended with the kings surrendering more and more of their powers to the parliament up until they held so little of it revolution caused more trouble than good. Democracy isn't always born out of fire and arms, sometimes it is the slow achievement of a society. The people being unhappy about the ruling class in a time where unity is needed may force the hand of said upper class to make concession. We just do not know yet.

All this to say I think it is very hasty to state Elhokar's promptly arrival, with a Honorblade (which he does not currently have even if it is probable he will), will be sufficient to stop the rebellion not when we are so clueless as to what is happening precisely. I would also point out how the rebellion seems in part against the queen and in part against the Ardentia who has been abusing its position, which implies no matter what states of things there are in Kholinar, not everyone might be pleased upon seeing a Honorblade. Elhokar might very well arrive there in the middle of rioting people no caring one bit if he is their "king". The Kholins do not see,m as if they dedicated a great deal of effort to care for their hometown: by all accounts Dalinar, Gavilar, Elhokar have been mostly away for the past decade or so. It is not so far-fetched to think the people will be completely unimpressed by the king walking in.

5 hours ago, hypatia said:

About Elhokar's paranoia - yes, he had cut his own girth but wasn't there also someone manipulating his shardplate?

And wasn't it the deal that Dalinar was made the Highprince of War for his promise "to find out who is trying to kill you"?

I can't remember - do we now know who was trying to kill Elhokar before Graves and Moash?

We do not know about his Shardplate: there are theories, but nothing has been officially confirmed. It is often assumed Graves was behind it.

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

It would take him weeks to reach the capital on foot from the shattered plains, and weeks for any reinforcement he asks for to get there, so no, the smart move is to wait for the oathgate to be opened. 

What makes you yawn will happen but we won't need to see it, we don't follow characters through their whole day, he'll have plenty of time to get involved with the more important matters.

If Elhokar isn't suited to solve the Kholinar riot, then Adolin isn't much better, he's also nothing but a lighteyed prince taking part in the opression by your own take on the rebellion.

Of course Adolin would have a hard time in Kholinar as he too is unlikely to be well received: not only is he the son of the Highprince, he was just a foppish teenager people thought little of last time he was there. His arrival is unlikely to tip the balance nor to convince the rebellion needs to stop, not at first, but at least, he, knows how to command armies, lead men and make quick decisions. The same cannot be said about Elhokar who is likely to get there and expect the rebellion to stop just because he says so.

Also, Adolin would use the Oathgate, just like Elhokar. If they can open it for Elhokar, then can open it for Adolin. 

What makes my yawn is the prospect of transforming Adolin's character into a politician stuck in one location.

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

This isn't much of a discussion if all you offer is the author will think of something better, i don't even think of it as an arc, his father has been neglecting his duties as Highprince for a while, Adolin and his officers were left in charge, all this will do is officialise the transition.

And you need to make up your minds, either the Highprince position is time consuming and will prevent Adolin from doing anything else of import, or it's a meaningless role that Dalinar can keep since the princedom runs itself ... The middle ground is where you'll find me, taking charge of the princedom will come with some responsibilities, but not nearly enough to chain Adolin down and restrict him to the role. 

Some of us just do not like the idea of Adolin being named Highprince. Reasons are various. One of my reasons is we were told in WoK Adolin would be the next Highprince. We were told how well trained he has been for the job. We were told how great of a Highprince he would become someday. Seeing him moving up and truly turning into a great Highprince is just not incredibly interesting, in terms of story telling, because it involves no growth nor development for Adolin's character. He already has the skills to be a Highprince: him occupying the function implies no learning curve, no beginners mistakes, no nothing. There is no challenge into this story, just the boring continuity of what we were told would happen back in WoK. As a reader, I tend to prefer more out of the box story arcs, less planned ones and characters are usually more interesting when forced to go down paths they never thought to walk on. The Highprince story arc does not allow this for Adolin's character which is why some of us find it boring and restrictive. So yes, it makes me yearn for a twist or for anything else to happen then what I am currently foreseeing.

It does not matter how much time being a Highprince consumes or not: the problem is I don't find it an interesting arc to give to Adolin's character.

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

'll be really curious to know what inate qualities you believe make a person a born good leader or doomed to failure ... 

Elhokar is neither brilliant nor stupid, he is average, average can get you a long way if you're willing to put in the effort. What do you even think leading an army to Kholinar entails ? he's spent enough time around presumably great military minds to pick up what he needs to know to pull out a basic task like this, he won't be formulating intricate strategies, he'll be bringing order to a city in chaos, the Kholin army can do this in their sleep, he won't have to give a single order.

Anyway this will go nowhere, Elhokar will have to wait with everyone for the portal to be opened, unless Dalinar screws up and gives him the blade.

Leadership can be achieve through various qualities, but the most important one is having some level of instinct which Elhokar lacks. This is precisely what comes out of his character: he has no sense on whom to trust. Himself? Counselors? His uncle? Each time he tries to trust someone to take his decision, it fails. Why is it? Because he has ZERO instinct when it comes to either trust nor decision making. It is either he believes whichever he'll decide is best because he is the king or he trusts someone to make decisions for him. You can't be a leader of you can't make simple decisions, if you constantly jungle with the idea their ought to be a method to decision making. The truth is some people just never get it: they aren't good leaders. They do not do well within such position and no amount of effort will ever make them improve. 

It isn't a matter of smart or stupid, it is a matter of the ability to lead, to make decisions, to take in all factors and craft something. Elhokar doesn't have this ability. It does not matter how much time he spends next to Kaladin, he isn't going to get them. It is like asking a fish to breath out of the water: he can't. This is why I have been arguing Elhokar should be a follower, not a leader.

So while Elhokar may have some knowledge, he still cannot apply it to real-life problems. For instance, he knew the plan to duel Sadeas, he knew how important it was and yet he screw it up because he was unable to take control of a small crowd. What makes us think he'll suddenly take control of a much bigger, much angrier crowd? On the other hand, we see Adolin aptly stop quarrel and getting the men to work despite their complains: Adolin knows how to take command, Elhokar doesn't. And no, he won't have an illumination where it will magically work because this isn't how it works in real-life. 

4 hours ago, Darvys said:

Most human interactions can be perceived as munipulative, intent is what matters, Elhokar's was never to undermine his uncle, in the context of his paranoia, it makes sense to try anything to see who he can trust.

Elhokar was spoiled, yes, Dalinar's fault not his, as even Sadeas pointed out, doesn't make Elhokar evil, it just adds a hurdle to his path toward bettering himself.

I agree with you he is still lying to himself, he'll soon be desabused of the idea, and we'll have to wait and see how he'll take it, but if we're throwing our opinions around, then i think he'll surprise you and accept to set foot on the harder path.

For the flawed pov, i distance myself enough from the characters to not take their impressions at face value, so no,i don't believe  Elhokar is fooling me, i took in all his appearances  and put 1 and 1 together.

I find your comment about Adolin turning evil amusing, as i believe your theory about Elhokar walking this path nearly as baseless. The nearly part is why i'm willing to discuss it whereas i simply ignore the former.

Did we get Elhokar's viewpoints? No, we didn't. Thus I shall reserve myself a dose of skepticism as to what his intentions really were: just because he claimed they were one thing, just because Dalinar believes him does not mean it is the truth. It merely means Dalinar's character believes it must be the case.

Elhokar is not evil, I do agree with you here and yes he was spoiled. He major problem though is his inability to make decision, to take control and to figure what is the best course of action during events.

For the rest, I will again advise caution into thinking we know a character when we have had no viewpoints. I will advise caution in saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for Elhokar to not have been entirely genuine because readers and Dalinar want to believe he is. More is at work, Ardentia is unhappy, Dalinar isn't making unanimity and Elhokar has been growing angry at his uncle. It is absolutely not far-fetched he would try to seize some power for himself for reasons which aren't genuine nor selfless. It isn't far-fetched to think he might want to make the grab for the greater thing nor that he would refuse outside help. It isn't a matter of adding one and one together: you, I, everyone else, we do not KNOW Elhokar's inner thoughts. We only know how other characters see him. The character told us his motivator was personal fame and glory. You and other readers want to believe he has selfless more noble goals, fine, but you can't say it is a matter of adding one and one together because we never got to read the first "one", much less the second "one. You, I, we are working on assumptions based on Dalinar and Kaladin's impressions (which are flawed as all characters) and our personal impressions on his character. You like him, I don't: you see the positive in him, I see the side of him which may not turn out so well. Who's right, who's wrong? I do not know, but my impressions are not baseless, as you seem to assume, there are plausible within the character we have read so far and they are more likely than you and other readers are willing to accept.

The reason some of us believe there is a rational for Elhokar turning evil is because his character has never expressed any concern towards his people, towards innocents, towards the price of his incompetence apart on "how people viewed him". He doesn't seem particularly close to his family nor does he seem to actually like them. He has no strong ties to the side of good, but he has an innate desire to be powerful and heroic. It tends to be a bad combination. The reasons some of us do not believe Adolin could walk this path is his ties to the side of good are too strong and his character motivators aren't ones which imply "power", "fame" nor "heroism". He has positioned frequently as a defender of the poor people which makes him turning into a slaughterer does not hold the road. Elhokar? Honestly, we do not know... I am amused at how many people just think Elhokar is a good hearten man who just wants to do good: he comes from a family of bloody conquerors and massacres. Is it so far-fetched to think he might have actually inherited some of it? I say not.

3 hours ago, hypatia said:

Now I'm a little bit confused - where is Dalinar considering to give the Honorblade to Elhokar?

Does Elhokar even know about it?

This isn't a done deal yet. Some of us are assuming it may happen.

[hypatia she/her]

@Frostlander

Yes and opposed to this picture of the king - how many people see Dalinar as the one who has killed their families?

Many of the Alethi people nowadays were these crying children and women - they have probably seen him only as the Blackthorn and then never again.

I don't think they know this Dalinar we were presented in the first two books.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

I would like to quickly throw in a theory I came up with while reading these chapters: Mr. T's people are interfering with Dalinar's communications, in order to make it so that Mr. T is the only one Dalinar can turn to. This would explain why Azir is being so unresponsive, despite having a Radiant. It could also explain why Queen Fen suddenly changed her tone. If Mr. T's Diagram followers were near the span reeds, they could potentially tweak or change parts of Dalinar's communications as they are relayed, which could potentially change the tone of Dalinar's message to band together into something less peaceful, all without Dalinar realizing.

[RYANHOME he/him]

@Faceless Mist-Wraith

I not only think Mr. T is editing the communication coming and going from the spanreed hub but he is also behind the riots in Kholinar. We have seen a member from the diagram almost assassinate a king. Would it be that much of a stretch to think he's been prodding the sore points to cause riots?

[Seerow]

7 hours ago, hypatia said:

About Elhokar's paranoia - yes, he had cut his own girth but wasn't there also someone manipulating his shardplate?

And wasn't it the deal that Dalinar was made the Highprince of War for his promise "to find out who is trying to kill you"?

I can't remember - do we now know who was trying to kill Elhokar before Graves and Moash?

This was never confirmed, but my ongoing theory is that this was Elhokar's protoradiancy manifesting.

We already know he's been seeing strange shapes in mirrors, similar to what Shallan saw before (re?)bonding pattern. We also know that a Surgebinder can have issues with Shardplate. Most definitively we have Kaladin getting his stormlight leeched from him into the plate helm he is using as a boxing glove during the Battle Royale, but it seems to me completely reasonable that a surgebinder with no other Stormlight on him might accidentally suck stormlight from the plate they are wearing without being aware they are even doing it. Especially in a life or death situation like being attacked by a Chasmfiend. 

[Emerald101 he/him]

Brandon was asked about this. He RAFO'd, but said it's very difficult to draw stormlight from active shardplate.

Quote

QUESTION

Elhokar's assassination attempt, the drained spheres from his Plate - was that him draining them, Surgebinding?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a RAFO. Good question. Let me say this. Drawing the Stormlight from an active set of Shardplate is very difficult.

(source)

[Steeldancer he/him]

3 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

Brandon was asked about this. He RAFO'd, but said it's very difficult to draw stormlight from active shardplate.

(source)

Probably has something to do with identity. 

[Emerald101 he/him]

I doubt it. Identity comes into play when investiture comes from or moves through a particular individual, becoming keyed to that individual in the process. It applies to things like awakened objects and metalminds, not suits of armor drawing investiture from a container.

[Calderis he/him]

27 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

I doubt it. Identity comes into play when investiture comes from or moves through a particular individual, becoming keyed to that individual in the process. It applies to things like awakened objects and metalminds, not suits of armor drawing investiture from a container.

I disagree. All things have a Cognitive and Spiritual aspect. While this may not be enough in many instances to rekeyed investiture to an inanimate object, if something is able to actively draw on an investiture source, it may be enough to create resistance to a third party attempting to draw on it. 

Plate may also be keyed to the identity of the Radiant who created it, which would explain why it interferes with surges, but didn't for the Radiants. 

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Seerow said:

This was never confirmed, but my ongoing theory is that this was Elhokar's protoradiancy manifesting.

Not really. If Elhokar were a proto-Radiant, then he would have healed his wounds at a fast peace. All proto-Radiants, even the ones not having said the first oaths had the ability to speed up their healing. The fact Elhokar doesn't do it indicates he most likely does not have a Nahel Bond.

 

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. All things have a Cognitive and Spiritual aspect. While this may not be enough in many instances to rekeyed investiture to an inanimate object, if something is able to actively draw on an investiture source, it may be enough to create resistance to a third party attempting to draw on it. 

Plate may also be keyed to the identity of the Radiant who created it, which would explain why it interferes with surges, but didn't for the Radiants. 

My point exactly

The gems are an unkeyed source of investiture, and so can put investiture into the keyed shardplate. Makes total sense.

And I've never thought of gems as being unkeyed before... hmmm. Ideas stir within my brain...

[Dlyol]

9 hours ago, Frostlander said:

 

Quote

“Will you tell the king?” Aric asked. “That storm ripped away four of our silos. We’ll be starving afore too long, with all these refugees and no food. When the highstorms start coming again, we won’t have half as many homes as we need.”

“I’ll tell Elhokar.” But Stormfather, the rest of the kingdom would be just as bad.

He needed to focus on the Voidbringers. He couldn’t report back to Dalinar until he had the Stormlight to fly home, so for now it seemed his most useful task would be to find out where the enemy was gathering, if he could.

3

In more rural areas, at least, Alethi seem to think that their king just needs to know what's going on so that he can help. (Humorously, Kaladin immediately starts thinking about communicating with Dalinar.) This may not necessarily reflect what urban Alethi think about Elhokar, but I don't think this was a casually dropped line. It seems more likely that Brandon wanted to remind us that at least some people saw Elhokar as king, and a potentially benevolent one, too.

Yes! Exactly this. This view, that injustices, when they occur only occur because the king doesn't know or because his advisors are deceiving him, was the norm in almost every pre-modern society. It is central to how feudalism sustains itself as a socioeconomic model and I don't see any reason why Alethkar would be different. Presumably, prior to the Kholin unification, the Highprinces were the focus of this assumption and now it has shifted to the king.

@maxal I did not mean to suggest you don't know your history and I'm sorry if I did. I think on this one we will have to agree to disagree although our positions aren't actually that different in that we are both now cautioning each other in believing too strongly in one narrative as opposed to arguing for another. Is your view possible, certainly maybe even plausible. I don't, however, believe it is probable for three reasons. One is meta-textual - I would imagine something so earthshattering as revolution would have more foreshadowing and I feel that Mistborn is the series in which Brandon explores these themes and I don't think he'll do it twice. The second is my own personal beliefs derived from my life as an aspiring, professional historian and my politics about how human events work as class politics directed by ideology and culture. If there exists in Alethkar a class that is aware of its status as a class and of its class interest then we haven't seen it. Darkeyes are a legally prescribed caste, not a class which is a group of people of common economic interests. There are darkeyed merchants, darkeyed peasants and darkeyed urban labourers all of which are separate classes within the legal caste system with potentially conflicting economic interests. Certainly, we haven't seen anything that resembles a revolutionary ideology. Now I accept that Brandon may not this view of how human events work so my third reason is that by the nature of human beings certain things must be true. There will be people within the Kholinar rioters who are more radical and those who are less. Revolutions depend on instability which means that by their nature they must be themselves unstable. Small changes of momentum in unstable situations can have big consequences. This all being said your explanations fits all the facts and so is completely possible.

8 hours ago, maxal said:

It reached an end somewhere around the time where Napoleon rose up to be named Emperor

This is actually a hotly contested point - when did the Revolution end? In the 1970s a French government minister lost his job for declaring the Revolution was over. The official French understanding of the Revolution is not as of an event but as an ongoing process. Conversely, some historians have said the Revolution ended in 1795, four years before Napoleon or even earlier. Not that this has any bearing on the argument it's just an interesting demonstration of how complicated revolutions can get.

8 hours ago, maxal said:

England has also had its fair share of peasant rebellions which usually ended with the kings surrendering more and more of their powers to the parliament up until they held so little of it revolution caused more trouble than good.

Also, this really isn't true. Working class activism in England - The Peasant's revolt, the Levellers, Chartism didn't succeed at gaining political power until the formation of the Labour party in 1906 and indeed was often brutally suppressed. Parliament was controlled by the aristocracy right up until the end of the 19th century. The fights of British history - The Civil War and the Glorious Revolution - were partly religious and partly about ideology but they were between aristocrats who shared assumptions about economic models and how society should be organised. This points to a third option that neither of us has mentioned but is perhaps the most probable. Lots of sound and fury leading to sufficient concessions in governance to appease the rioters but that leave the fundamentals of Alethi society; feudalism, Vorinism and lighteyed privilege unchanged

Edited September 24, 2017 by Dlyol

[Varenus]

9 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I would like to quickly throw in a theory I came up with while reading these chapters: Mr. T's people are interfering with Dalinar's communications, in order to make it so that Mr. T is the only one Dalinar can turn to. This would explain why Azir is being so unresponsive, despite having a Radiant. It could also explain why Queen Fen suddenly changed her tone. If Mr. T's Diagram followers were near the span reeds, they could potentially tweak or change parts of Dalinar's communications as they are relayed, which could potentially change the tone of Dalinar's message to band together into something less peaceful, all without Dalinar realizing.

 

8 hours ago, RYANHOME said:

@Faceless Mist-Wraith

I not only think Mr. T is editing the communication coming and going from the spanreed hub but he is also behind the riots in Kholinar. We have seen a member from the diagram almost assassinate a king. Would it be that much of a stretch to think he's been prodding the sore points to cause riots?

I think that Kalami is a Diagamist. Here is a post I made in the copycat killer forum: 

Quote

 

Also, Kalami seems like a good candidate for a  Diagamist:

She did not take leave after her husband died

She was there at Sadeas' death

She has studied Vorin theory

She was the one communicating with foreign monarchs during Dalinar's attempt to unify them

And, look how suspicious this is: 

  Quote

“Our ultimate goal is the preservation of all Roshar,” Dalinar said softly. “We’ve seen the cost of division in our ranks. Because of it, we failed to stop the Everstorm. But that was just the trial run, the sparring before the real fight. To face the Desolation, I will find a way to do what my ancestor the Sunmaker failed to do through conquest. I will unify Roshar.”

Kalami gasped softly. No man had ever united the entire continent— not during the Shin invasions, not during the height of the Hierocracy, not during the Sunmaker’s conquest. This was his task, he was increasingly certain. The enemy would unleash his worst terrors: the Unmade and the Voidbringers. That phantom champion in the dark armor.

  She did not gasp because she is surprised to hear Dalinar propose such a lofty goal, but she is surprised to hear such a clear mirroring of Mr.T's own goals.

 It might just be coincidence, but it is suspicious.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Varenus

[RYANHOME he/him]

@Varenus

That is a interesting theory about kalami. The only thing that is nagging at me is why haven't we seen any attempts on dalinar once he veered away from being the warlord. We know the diagram states to kill dalinar expediently if he starts to unify the kingdom. I would think if kalami is a diagramist she would've poisoned dalinar and let the blame lean towards sadeas.

[Varenus]

2 minutes ago, RYANHOME said:

@Varenus

That is a interesting theory about kalami. The only thing that is nagging at me is why haven't we seen any attempts on dalinar once he veered away from being the warlord. We know the diagram states to kill dalinar expediently if he starts to unify the kingdom. I would think if kalami is a diagramist she would've poisoned dalinar and let the blame lean towards sadeas.

I am not saying it's a perfect theory. Just an idea I had. 

Perhaps she was going to leave Dalinar's assassination to Szeth? Really, Mr.T was killing everyone and anyone who  might have been a threat and there was no reason to believe Dalinar, who was only one name on a long list, would survive magically. 

Or perhaps kalami did not realize that Dalinar would be an issue before he mimicked Mr.T?

The diagram actually says:

Quote

 

Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great

Dalinar only recently realized that he needs to unite the whole world, not just Alethkar. And, his attempts at uniting his own country have really only divided it more(Sadeas' betrayal, Sadeas' death, Highprinces staying on the shattered plains, Elhokar acting up, capitol in revolt- which is not Dalinar's fault to be fair). Nothing up until this point has directly threatened Mr.T's plan to rule the world.