[OB] Oathbringer WoB

[maxal]

16 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

So it's not tin foil... because you've had the same thoughts? No, it's completely tin foil. We have no idea why Jasnah is on the cover, but she more than deserves a place in the spotlight. After all, it's all thanks to her proactive research that our main cast even knows about the threat they're facing. Not only is this book the return of Jasnah from the dead, it's the book where apparently she gets majorly involved in some huge-chull battle.

Whom deserves to be on the cover and whom doesn't is a highly subjective question. I would have personally prefer to see someone more important to the main narrative than Jasnah and while her research is important she herself hasn't been much more than a minor supporting character. She served as the "wise mentor" within WoK and she was absent from WoR. She had only two viewpoints, one of them being the prologue. She has had little character development, so far, and while things will eventually change, Brandon explicitly stated her role would be small within future books (up until book 6). Characters such as Teft and Moash likely had more exposition within the narrative than Jasnah.

As such, I do feel it is perfectly justified to state I would have preferred to see currently more important characters onto the cover, characters such as Dalinar and/or Shallan. And since, considering all the numerous WoB where Brandon warns his readers over Jasnah's small role, I do find this choice dubious. It might have been made for the right reasons, but a part of me can't help to think there was other purposes behind this choice, especially considering how they chose to draw her.

Her just being back also is highly spoiler-y for future readers, especially for book 3. So no, I do not think it is "tin foil" to think the reasons behind choosing Jasnah might have been in part driven by the need to put a gorgeous woman flaunting her curves onto the cover. Might. May not also, but it might and I am wondering about it. 

This being said, if I am to believe the numerous comments I have read across the fandom, this covers is the least preferred of all covers, many disliking it for various reasons. Most often named are: too old-fashioned, Jasnah's position and facial expression is too odd, the background is uninteresting, the choice of Jasnah due to circumstances and all is criticized.

Thus myself not being entirely enthralled by it hardly is an exception: a lot of readers are ambivalent about it. My reasons may not be everyone's reasons, but I have seen more than one individual sharing those thoughts.

22 hours ago, Kelly.N said:

I completely disagree. Jasnah is dressed practically for battle, and in no way does Whelan emphasize her curves. To me, she looks exactly like a powerful woman her age should. Also, Kaladin was not on the cover of WoK, and Shallan was not on the cover of WoR, so I don't understand why anyone expected Dalinar to be on the cover of OB. While I do agree that putting Jasnah on the cover was a tad spoilery, I think you are only seeing what you want to see regarding her figure. I am a woman who is all for desexualizing the media when it comes to women, but I truly believe Michael Whelan chose to do this scene for the cover because he felt it best conveyed the theme of Oathbringer, not to pander to Brandon's female readers.

It isn't her clothing which is the issue, but her pose which is unnatural and made just so we could get a full frontal. Her facial expression is also very odd and not very eye pleasing, IMHO. As a woman I get a relent from old-fashioned fantasy covers from the 80s and no I didn't enjoy watching it. I can't expect everyone to share my views, but I do think they are valid views to share.

The reason I wanted Dalinar onto the cover is he remains the only character among the main three we didn't really see: we saw him in Shardplate, but it hardly counts as we don't see him, him and I would have loved to see him.

Something else I forgot to mention: previous covers where made to show the world behind the characters. While we did see Kaladin and Shardplated Dalinar, we mostly saw the Shattered Plains. Shallan's drawing was a masterpiece in itself. Onto the Oathbringer cover, all we see is Jasnah. I can't see no other reason to go forth with this cover but the intention to show... Jasnah. Her and only her. Had they put her through a piece of gorgeous world-building, I would have had different commentaries, but they didn't. Of all cover characters, she is the biggest. And yes this does fuel some of my thinking.

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by maxal

[Vissy]

29 minutes ago, maxal said:

Whom deserves to be on the cover and whom doesn't is a highly subjective question. I would have personally prefer to see someone more important to the main narrative than Jasnah and while her research is important she herself hasn't been much more than a minor supporting character. She served as the "wise mentor" within WoK and she was absent from WoR. She had only two viewpoints, one of them being the prologue. She has had little character development, so far, and while things will eventually change, Brandon explicitly stated her role would be small within future books (up until book 6). Characters such as Teft and Moash likely had more exposition within the narrative than Jasnah.

As such, I do feel it is perfectly justified to state I would have preferred to see currently more important characters onto the cover, characters such as Dalinar and/or Shallan. And since, considering all the numerous WoB where Brandon warns his readers over Jasnah's small role, I do find this choice dubious. It might have been made for the right reasons, but a part of me can't help to think there was other purposes behind this choice, especially considering how they chose to draw her.

Her just being back also is highly spoiler-y for future readers, especially for book 3. So no, I do not think it is "tin foil" to think the reasons behind choosing Jasnah might have been in part driven by the need to put a gorgeous woman flaunting her curves onto the cover. Might. May not also, but it might and I am wondering about it. 

This being said, if I am to believe the numerous comments I have read across the fandom, this covers is the least preferred of all covers, many disliking it for various reasons. Most often named are: too old-fashioned, Jasnah's position and facial expression is too odd, the background is uninteresting, the choice of Jasnah due to circumstances and all is criticized.

Thus myself not being entirely enthralled by it hardly is an exception: a lot of readers are ambivalent about it. My reasons may not be everyone's reasons, but I have seen more than one individual sharing those thoughts.

It isn't her clothing which is the issue, but her pose which is unnatural and made just so we could get a full frontal. Her facial expression is also very odd and not very eye pleasing, IMHO. As a woman I get a relent from old-fashioned fantasy covers from the 80s and no I didn't enjoy watching it. I can't expect everyone to share my views, but I do think they are valid views to share.

The reason I wanted Dalinar onto the cover is he remains the only character among the main three we didn't really see: we saw him in Shardplate, but it hardly counts as we don't see him, him and I would have loved to see him.

Something else I forgot to mention: previous covers where made to show the world behind the characters. While we did see Kaladin and Shardplated Dalinar, we mostly saw the Shattered Plains. Shallan's drawing was a masterpiece in itself. Onto the Oathbringer cover, all we see is Jasnah. I can't see no other reason to go forth with this cover but the intention to show... Jasnah. Her and only her. Had they put her through a piece of gorgeous world-building, I would have had different commentaries, but they didn't. Of all cover characters, she is the biggest. And yes this does fuel some of my thinking.

 

Take a look at the cover again. It's not exactly what you'd call "curvy". It's what you'd call "badass". I think you're letting your perception get too dominated by your sexism. Once again, you have no idea what scenes we will see in the book. You're simply assuming that Brandon did not make the cover decision on the basis of the book's content, you assume he made it on the basis of pure marketability (because Jasnah is such a popular and recognizable character, right?). More likely is that Jasnah was chosen for the cover because, as Kelly said, it conveys a central scene of the book in which Jasnah is likely going to be a key figure. And just because someone is getting little character development or PoVs in a book does not mean that they are not important to the plot.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Pattern]

@maxal: Your assuredness that the cover is not fitting lets me think you are a beta reader already knowing Oathbringer. I would like to postpone my judgment whether the cover is fitting or not until I have read the book myself. Sexism in the cover I cannot find, however hard i look. Of course, Jasnahs pose is unnatural. Naturally her gaze would be directed to the wall she seems to be soulcasting, so we would see her highly descriptive back; lets call the pose artistic freedom...

So what did we get in the first three books?

The Way of Kings:     Flashback: Kaladin;    Prologue: Szeth;        Cover: Dalinar (and Eshonai in the backgroud)
Words of Radiance:   Flashback: Shallan;    Prologue: Jasnah;     Cover: Kaladin + inside picture of Shallan
Oathbringer:              Flashback: Dalinar;     Prologue: Eshonai;    Cover: Jasnah

So Jasnah was already featured in a prologue, her appearing on a cover is not so surprising then. Perhaps it's also some kind of making up for her having been gandalfed out of Words of Radiance. So perhaps she does get some good screen time in Oathbringer, not necessarily in her own POV.

My thoughts on the interlude novella: I guess it will feature a side character or a main character of the past five books, definitely a character having no or only very little screentime in the main arc. Perhaps Elhokar is due and we get some more insight to his motives.

[Frostlander]

I suspect that Sanderson has more of a say in marketing than many authors, but sometimes marketing teams will let the author "choose" the cover. As in "you can choose which image of war, or battle or action scene you want to feature on the cover." It's possible that, despite his popularity, there are still some compromises with the publisher.

If they wanted a battle or action scene and he gave Whelan a handful to choose from, maybe this was the one from the book that made the best, least spoilery cover. And (this is my fault), but if I hadn't read the artist's explanation of how he designed the image, I'd just be speculating like crazy and not worrying about this so much.

[maxal]

12 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Take a look at the cover again. It's not exactly what you'd call "curvy". It's what you'd call "badass". I think you're letting your perception get too dominated by your sexism. Once again, you have no idea what scenes we will see in the book. You're simply assuming that Brandon did not make the cover decision on the basis of the book's content, you assume he made it on the basis of pure marketability (because Jasnah is such a popular and recognizable character, right?). More likely is that Jasnah was chosen for the cover because, as Kelly said, it conveys a central scene of the book in which Jasnah is likely going to be a key figure. And just because someone is getting little character development or PoVs in a book does not mean that they are not important to the plot.

I find it intrinsically fascinating disliking a book cover which happens to feature a woman has suddenly turned me into a sexist 

@Rob Lucci: You do not know me, you never met me, you have no idea what kind of individual I am, so I would kindly ask you to refrain on making baseless judgments onto my person on the basis of myself disliking a fantasy book cover. You get to attack my arguments, my wordings, my thoughts, not my person. Never my person. You aren't to attempt at discrediting me because it is easier to attack the messenger than the message. Am I being clear? 

For the rest, I would like to state had Oathbringer's cover been Taln and had it been drawn to look like this:

Spoiler

I would have had the exact same comments. I would criticize the choice of Taln as I would feel there currently are more important characters to put onto the book cover. I would also state I find the cover to be old-fashioned and stereotyped which would make me think if there aren't other reason behind choosing Taln for this cover.

My disliking the cover has nothing to do with a woman being on it, it has to do with how she was chosen to be portrayed. My perspective, your perspective. Simply because I don't like something, simply because I think marketing might be involved simply because I think the "artistic freedom" they took to draw Jasnah is old-school and a tad stereotyped does not make me the bearer of the world ignominies. 

10 hours ago, Pattern said:

@maxal: Your assuredness that the cover is not fitting lets me think you are a beta reader already knowing Oathbringer. I would like to postpone my judgment whether the cover is fitting or not until I have read the book myself. Sexism in the cover I cannot find, however hard i look. Of course, Jasnahs pose is unnatural. Naturally her gaze would be directed to the wall she seems to be soulcasting, so we would see her highly descriptive back; lets call the pose artistic freedom...

If I were a beta reader, I would be seriously trespassing my vows of secrecy, now wouldn't I?  My assurance comes from the many WoB where Brandon did warn Jasnah would not be getting a big role into the next book. Mind, what Brandon refers to as a "small role" and what readers may perceive as a "small role" could be entirely different. It could be I will totally agree with the cover once I read the book, who knows? As of now however, I do have reticence. 

[Vissy]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

I find it intrinsically fascinating disliking a book cover which happens to feature a woman has suddenly turned me into a sexist 

@Rob Lucci: You do not know me, you never met me, you have no idea what kind of individual I am, so I would kindly ask you to refrain on making baseless judgments onto my person on the basis of myself disliking a fantasy book cover. You get to attack my arguments, my wordings, my thoughts, not my person. Never my person. You aren't to attempt at discrediting me because it is easier to attack the messenger than the message. Am I being clear? 

For the rest, I would like to state had Oathbringer's cover been Taln and had it been drawn to look like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

I would have had the exact same comments. I would criticize the choice of Taln as I would feel there currently are more important characters to put onto the book cover. I would also state I find the cover to be old-fashioned and stereotyped which would make me think if there aren't other reason behind choosing Taln for this cover.

My disliking the cover has nothing to do with a woman being on it, it has to do with how she was chosen to be portrayed. My perspective, your perspective. Simply because I don't like something, simply because I think marketing might be involved simply because I think the "artistic freedom" they took to draw Jasnah is old-school and a tad stereotyped does not make me the bearer of the world ignominies. 

If I were a beta reader, I would be seriously trespassing my vows of secrecy, now wouldn't I?  My assurance comes from the many WoB where Brandon did warn Jasnah would not be getting a big role into the next book. Mind, what Brandon refers to as a "small role" and what readers may perceive as a "small role" could be entirely different. It could be I will totally agree with the cover once I read the book, who knows? As of now however, I do have reticence. 

Calling out your biases is not attacking your person - that is, as you said, attacking your arguments, your wordings and your thoughts. You're free to call out the cover, and we're free to find the holes in your reasoning. No cover is perfect, but calling it old-fashioned is a *bit* of a stretch. How is a lithe woman carrying a Shardblade "old-school"? Would not the old-school thing have been to put her into chainmail bikini?

[Guest]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

For the rest, I would like to state had Oathbringer's cover been Taln and had it been drawn to look like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

I would have had the exact same comments. I would criticize the choice of Taln as I would feel there currently are more important characters to put onto the book cover. I would also state I find the cover to be old-fashioned and stereotyped which would make me think if there aren't other reason behind choosing Taln for this cover.

My disliking the cover has nothing to do with a woman being on it, it has to do with how she was chosen to be portrayed. My perspective, your perspective. Simply because I don't like something, simply because I think marketing might be involved simply because I think the "artistic freedom" they took to draw Jasnah is old-school and a tad stereotyped does not make me the bearer of the world ignominies. 

I'm sorry, @maxal, but you can hardly objectively compare how Jasnah is portrayed on the Oathbringer cover with the way Thor(?) is drawn in your linked picture. Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion on Jasnah's portrayal, but this comparison is so far off, that I actually think it detrimental to your arguments. It is so overly sexualized, that in comparison Jasnah seems rather prude and tasteful on the Oathbringer cover, even with her curves.

Your point, that Jasnah might not be important enough to be on the cover, on the other hand, is more than valid, but it wouldn't be the first time, that Brandon has said something and changed his mind later. Regarding him saying, that Jasnah doesn't have a big role in the next book.

[Pattern]

9 hours ago, maxal said:

If I were a beta reader, I would be seriously trespassing my vows of secrecy, now wouldn't I?  

Nah, more like "I know what's happening in the book, hell, how can I write about the cover I am disliking, without telling anything?"

Actually, perhaps the cover of the UK version would be more to your liking, though that also seems to be showing Jasnah. (I accidentally preordered the UK version before any covers were released so I didn't look carefully enough which version I ordered, resulting in a later delivery - still arguing with myself whether to cancel and order the US version or not (would be 10€ more though, so perhaps I'll stay with the UK version and buy the e-book on release...).

Have a look at that cover and tell my what you think about that?

Spoiler

---

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Pattern

[Starla]

I barely noticed Jasnah when I first saw the cover, much less what she's wearing. My eyes immediately went to the thunderclast. I still can't believe our heroes be dealing with those in Oathbringer. I though the transformed parshmen would be the worst of it in this book, but egads, it looks like things are escalating quickly. Can't wait to see how they deal with the new threats.

[maxal]

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

I'm sorry, @maxal, but you can hardly objectively compare how Jasnah is portrayed on the Oathbringer cover with the way Thor(?) is drawn in your linked picture. Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion on Jasnah's portrayal, but this comparison is so far off, that I actually think it detrimental to your arguments. It is so overly sexualized, that in comparison Jasnah seems rather prude and tasteful on the Oathbringer cover, even with her curves.

Your point, that Jasnah might not be important enough to be on the cover, on the other hand, is more than valid, but it wouldn't be the first time, that Brandon has said something and changed his mind later. Regarding him saying, that Jasnah doesn't have a big role in the next book.

Yeah.... Upon retrospective, I have to admit I haven't chosen the best possible imagery to validate my point  It was indeed Thor because, huh, I was looking out for something very stereotypical, but male oriented. Thor is kinda of the first thing which pop into my mind  Blame Chris Hemsworth 

How about this instead?

Spoiler

It is probably more representative and closer to the Jasnah cover: it isn't the drawing is bad or anything, but it is cliche and stereotypical. Of course, the character is fully clothed, but the pose is unnatural and made to emphasis his physical attributes and not his personality. He has the same ecstatic expression Jasnah has on cover which only exacerbates those impressions.

There is also this post I stumbled upon on Reddit which made me laugh:

https://thoughtsonfantasy.com/2017/07/18/how-to-make-a-cliched-high-fantasy-cover/

While the Jasnah's cover does not entirely follow the same steps as within this post, it does recoup a few elements.

Bottom line is, whenever I look at the Oathbringer cover, if I didn't know any better, I would think the book was published within the early 80s, not the 21st century. 

If I look at fantasy in a general manner, female characters are, as a rule of thumb, more often then not described as beautiful and/or gorgeous. For instance, every single female character within WoT is described in a physically flattering manner while descriptions of male characters, on average, avoid any mention pertaining their level of "handsomeness". It is such I never thought of Mat as being particularly handsome and was surprised to see so many readers picture him as such, but I never thought for one second any of the girls was anything less then beautiful in their own unique ways. 

The fact many authors rely so strongly onto their female's characters physical attributes has bothered me as a character should primarily exists for its personality, its actions, its individuality, not its physic. Take Jasnah. Yes, she is drop-dead gorgeous. I do not mind she is drop-dead gorgeous, after all, characters are allowed to be handsome, if it serves the story (and I think it does in her case) and, quite frankly, Brandon hasn't overdone it in any of his books. This however does not constitute her driving attribute. Before being beautiful, Jasnah is incredibly smart, determined, courageous and prone to reason outside of her emotions. How she feels about things simply isn't a driving factor when it comes to her decision making. She also readily faces the Vorin church and public judging eyes by proclaiming herself an atheist. The mental strength required to attack oneself, all by yourself without the support of a group, is absolutely outstanding and it has made her a memorable character despite not having had many viewpoints, despite having been primarily absent from WoR. 

So why, when I look at the book cover, am I not seeing those attributes? Of course, I do understand artistic license and I have not criticized the fact she is hobbling into the air (others have), but I do critic the expression of her face and the fact the major "attribute" of Jasnah's character the cover puts in strong evidence is "beautiful". I don't mean to say they ought to have drawn her as ugly, but there are ways to capture the essence of character without solely relying on its physics and as of such, I do find this cover has missed the point of her character which, to my eyes, makes it a tad stereotypical. Stormlight is supposed to be the benchmark for modern epic fantasy: I wished Brandon and his team had taken the opportunity to innovate by going for a less cliche book cover.

Also, before someone mentions it, no, I would not appreciate my favorite, Adolin, being drawn with such an odd facial expression showing off his abs while supposedly being into an action scene, but not being drawn as if he were.

As to Jasnah and her role, as I said, I am basing myself on WoB and the WoB (which I can't locate anymore) was made after Oathbringer was written. Of course, what Brandon refers to as "small" and what us readers will feel is "small" may two entirely different things. We'll have to read the book to find out.

17 hours ago, Pattern said:

Nah, more like "I know what's happening in the book, hell, how can I write about the cover I am disliking, without telling anything?"

Actually, perhaps the cover of the UK version would be more to your liking, though that also seems to be showing Jasnah. (I accidentally preordered the UK version before any covers were released so I didn't look carefully enough which version I ordered, resulting in a later delivery - still arguing with myself whether to cancel and order the US version or not (would be 10€ more though, so perhaps I'll stay with the UK version and buy the e-book on release...).

Have a look at that cover and tell my what you think about that?

I am glad you are bringing forth the UK cover because I absolutely love it. I have nothing negative to say about it except perhaps pointing out Jasnah having a bang is kinda of odd (I never pictured her with one, but alright, I could get used to it, this isn't a big deal) and her facial features could have been made prettier (I find the nose is oddly drawn, but this too isn't a big deal, this is a very minor critic), but I would say this cover depicts the essence of her character much better than the US cover. It also depicts a key scene from the previous which was a shocking moment for several readers and as such I find it fitting even if spoiler-y.

When I see this cover, I see badass, I see determination, I see strength, I see the one character whom has always stood up, alone, against adversity and might be all poised and elegant, but does have an edge to her which I definitely think this picture is emphasizing. More importantly, I want to read this character. I really do, but the other one onto the US cover, not so much. In fact, not really. 

And this cover definitely does not rely on Jasnah being beautiful to pass a message or to carry on an ambiance which is why I find it modern and more to my personal tastes.

[+Extesian]

@maxal I’m half way on this. Firstly, I too far prefer the UK cover. The US cover is interesting because it gives us actual kinda-spoilers, but the UK one is WAY cooler, she looks like a cool, calm bad-chull. In defence of the US cover, Jasnah’s strengths, other than her intellectual fearlessness, are her actual fearlessness and willingness to protect humanity. And yeah, while the pose and look is stylized, it’s still showing her protecting a city from a demon while looking like she’s way too cool to be scared. That’s the Jasnah I know and love. So I do think the cover shows far more than just her sexiness (and I do maintain her sexiness isn't in your face or superficial - it's a warrior-woman sexiness). But totally agree the UK one is more sophisticated.

 

But then I hate the vast majority of covers, especially in the US market, for the vast majority of Sanderson books. Hate them. The in-book artwork and such is magnificent, but there just keeps being these cartoonish, WoT-style covers. Stormlight particularly is not a rusting cartoon, covers should be dark, moody and realistic, not like Saturday morning animations. Storming publishers. Luckily I read the e-books.

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

@maxal I’m half way on this. Firstly, I too far prefer the UK cover. The US cover is interesting because it gives us actual kinda-spoilers, but the UK one is WAY cooler, she looks like a cool, calm bad-chull. In defence of the US cover, Jasnah’s strengths, other than her intellectual fearlessness, are her actual fearlessness and willingness to protect humanity. And yeah, while the pose and look is stylized, it’s still showing her protecting a city from a demon while looking like she’s way too cool to be scared. That’s the Jasnah I know and love. So I do think the cover shows far more than just her sexiness (and I do maintain her sexiness isn't in your face or superficial - it's a warrior-woman sexiness). But totally agree the UK one is more sophisticated.

 

But then I hate the vast majority of covers, especially in the US market, for the vast majority of Sanderson books. Hate them. The in-book artwork and such is magnificent, but there just keeps being these cartoonish, WoT-style covers. Stormlight particularly is not a rusting cartoon, covers should be dark, moody and realistic, not like Saturday morning animations. Storming publishers. Luckily I read the e-books.

I feel I need to mention the things I do like about the US covers because not everything is negative. The overall picture with the thunderclast looming in the background, I find it fascinating, but it is completely lost onto the actual book cover. I do agree Jasnah is willing to protect humanity, it definitely is one of her strength, but I think it is lost within the US cover due to her detached expression. Of course, her sexiness is warrior related which is probably why many are fine with it, but I do no get why she needs to be warrior-sexy. What purpose does it serve? Kaladin was not warrior-sexy onto his cover, neither was Dalinar, so why is Jasnah drawn this way? The other cover is not sexy, not in the slightest way and it conveys a much stronger, powerful imagery than the US cover, IMHO.

In shorts, a character does not need to be drawn as sexy in order to pass a valid message. In fact, the strongest message are those passed without relying on physical attributes, no matter what they might be.

I am with you when it comes to fantasy book covers. I do dislike most of them and I wished publisher would steer away from the cliche covers. I think the UK cover does a good job of modernizing book covers. Also, it does have an Eastern feel which I know is intentional, but I had trouble catching just by reading the book.

[Ammanas]

@maxal Thanks for the insight! Also apologies for my original post that started all the cover controversy. I feel it was worthwhile to mention and have a possible conversation about, but it seems like things got heated. Personally I lean more towards your view of things, but can see the reasoning of other perspectives.

[maxal]

21 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

@maxal Thanks for the insight! Also apologies for my original post that started all the cover controversy. I feel it was worthwhile to mention and have a possible conversation about, but it seems like things got heated. Personally I lean more towards your view of things, but can see the reasoning of other perspectives.

Yeah... It got heated and I'll admit I did not see it coming. I didn't think it would catch on as it did. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by maxal

[Guest]

@maxal

I agree with many of your points, but I think, that you are overanalyzing a bit. Sure, Jasnah has a heroic pose and certainly looks beautiful the way she is drawn, but my main takeaway actually was, that she looks like she is determined. But maybe, that is because I already know, that she is supposed to be gorgeous, as I have read the books. It's always very hard to put inner traits into a picture of someone, just as it is hard to learn someone's traits from just looking at their appearance in real-life. I understand your criticism, but I really don't see how someone could draw Jasnah and still show her most inner traits, that many of us only know, because we already had a deeper insight into her character. Book covers aren't made for that. They are made to sell books. They are made to intrigue the potential reader, so that he buys the book.

If Brandon sells a few more copies, because Oathbringer has an attractive heroine on the cover, that is just fine by me.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Kaladin was not warrior-sexy onto his cover

He wasn't? Yeah, he has some scars on his forehead, but other than that, I would describe him as a rather handsome fellow, also depicted in a strange pose, wielding Stormlight and a spear.

I think, the problem is, that we are used to men being the stereotypical soldiers, while women aren't. Thus a man depicted as a warrior is considered normal, while a woman depicted as a warrior is somewhat odd and stirs up controversy. I don't think, that that will ever change.

Edited July 21, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern]

On 9.7.2017 at 4:08 PM, maxal said:

Shuffling all of those together and taking the WoB into consideration, I do think Taln is the one. Why? Because he is the only one which would contain a spoiler Brandon isn't willing to drop just yet, meaning his real identity.

Lets bring this thread back to topic.

I also think the person being called Taln would be a good option for the interlude novella, especially since his delusions could give us insight into the time between the Prelude and the Prologue of Way of Kings - hopefully more than "it burns...it burns..." and, if he really is Taln, more first hand information about the Oathpact.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Pattern

[Vissy]

Sorry for the accusatory language, @maxal . Looking back on my posts, they came across very badly. I did not mean to act so rudely towards you.

I agree about the Taln interlude. One other reason for including it into Oathbringer would be that it's a good opportunity to let us readers know bits and pieces about the Sons of Honor, through Taln's tortured psyche. This way you wouldn't give away too much at once, but just enough to make it interesting, while developing, setting up and perhaps even advancing an important character's story arc.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[maxal]

20 hours ago, SLNC said:

@maxal

I agree with many of your points, but I think, that you are overanalyzing a bit. Sure, Jasnah has a heroic pose and certainly looks beautiful the way she is drawn, but my main takeaway actually was, that she looks like she is determined. But maybe, that is because I already know, that she is supposed to be gorgeous, as I have read the books. It's always very hard to put inner traits into a picture of someone, just as it is hard to learn someone's traits from just looking at their appearance in real-life. I understand your criticism, but I really don't see how someone could draw Jasnah and still show her most inner traits, that many of us only know, because we already had a deeper insight into her character. Book covers aren't made for that. They are made to sell books. They are made to intrigue the potential reader, so that he buys the book.

If Brandon sells a few more copies, because Oathbringer has an attractive heroine on the cover, that is just fine by me.

He wasn't? Yeah, he has some scars on his forehead, but other than that, I would describe him as a rather handsome fellow, also depicted in a strange pose, wielding Stormlight and a spear.

I think, the problem is, that we are used to men being the stereotypical soldiers, while women aren't. Thus a man depicted as a warrior is considered normal, while a woman depicted as a warrior is somewhat odd and stirs up controversy. I don't think, that that will ever change.

To me the issue isn't how beautiful Jasnah is, but how her physic is what this cover is using to market her character. These are my impressions anyway, but you are right in saying I am perhaps being a tad nip picky. I'll admit I have gotten very sensitive over these issues ever since I have had kids of my own. I am terribly frustrated to see so little positive female main protagonists within kid's oriented shows. Unless the shows is about girls putting on make-up and shopping, the hero always is a little boy (therefore, if it's interesting, then it is targeted towards boys). For instance, why does Paw Patrol have 5 male dogs and only one female dog who happens to be dressed in pink with ridiculous lulus and being unnerved? Why not 3 male dogs and 3 female dogs? Why can't the engineering dog be female? Or the police dog? I also have issues with super-heroes in general: they never bothered me before up until I realize how stereotypical their physic is, how obvious their physic is. Once within the toy store I realize I couldn't buy those to my little boy, why all the muscles? Why market physic and not personality, accomplishment? Why always market the superficial? So when I saw the Oathbringer cover, to me, it was just yet another instance where physic is put on the forefront and I did not expect it out of Brandon Sanderson.

As for stereotypical soldier, I would say the female warrior is quite a prevalent trope within fantasy, but many authors (and countless game designers) feel the need to also make her sexy. That's where I am bothered. Why always sexy? Male warriors often aren't sexy within the slightest way, hey, I would take more sexy male warriors, but my problem is when it comes to female, sexy is almost always there. I don't mind it exists, I mind it is majorly what is marketed.

18 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Sorry for the accusatory language, @maxal . Looking back on my posts, they came across very badly. I did not mean to act so rudely towards you.

Thanks for your apologies  I suggest we shake hands, put this behind us and keep on discussing 

18 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I agree about the Taln interlude. One other reason for including it into Oathbringer would be that it's a good opportunity to let us readers know bits and pieces about the Sons of Honor, through Taln's tortured psyche. This way you wouldn't give away too much at once, but just enough to make it interesting, while developing, setting up and perhaps even advancing an important character's story arc.

 

20 hours ago, Pattern said:

I also think the person being called Taln would be a good option for the interlude novella, especially since his delusions could give us insight into the time between the Prelude and the Prologue of Way of Kings - hopefully more than "it burns...it burns..." and, if he really is Taln, more first hand information about the Oathpact.

On the light of finding the novella character is somewhat spoiler-y, I do think Taln fits. I also think now is a good time to spend more time with him. I was intrigued by him in WoK, but I'll admit I have little interest into the crazy character trope, so my interest vane away in WoR. I am wiling to put it back on track, so if Brandon finds an interesting story arc for him he wants to include within this book and thus solve the question as to whom he is, then sure, why not?

Other contenders, Taravangian, but I doubt it. He just does not fit and Brandon did say he had an interlude or something, so he is a no to me.

Moash remains a very solid contender to me.

Someone I don't think anybody mentioned, but how about Amaram? 

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

Someone I don't think anybody mentioned, but how about Amaram? 

Ooooooo. I would love to hate him. 

[maxal]

Just now, Calderis said:

Ooooooo. I would love to hate him. 

Yeah... We need someone to love to hate, now don't we?

[+Ravioli]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Yeah... We need someone to love to hate, now don't we?

Spoilers, the entire book is from Amaram's POV.

[frozndevl]

Interesting conversation here, i have to echo that I found Jasnah's facial expression to be one of determination.

I would support a Taln interlude just so Brandon could be toying around with the idea of an unreliable narrator. He could throw some serious curveballs at the readers going down that road.

[Steeldancer]

IMO idrc who's on the cover as long as it looks cool. And it looks cool. 

[Kered]

So, we know who the main interlude character is now, Eshonai's sister. Any thoughts on the spoiler Brandon refers to? I've been thinking, but haven't come up with anything solid. 

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, Kered said:

So, we know who the main interlude character is now, Eshonai's sister. Any thoughts on the spoiler Brandon refers to? I've been thinking, but haven't come up with anything solid. 

Eshonai being dead. The moment we'd heard that Venli was the main interlude character, everyone would've wondered "but why Venli? Why not Eshonai, when she is going to have a flashback sequence at some point?"