[OB] Honor's Perpendicularity

[+Extesian]

This is a tenuous theory, but here goes...

We know that Honor's perpendicularity moves. (and I'll spoiler quotes for size reasons)

Spoiler

QUESTION

Is it possible that someone could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

...Can we know how?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?

QUESTION

Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. So you’ve adopted the term “Shardpool.” That was never really my term, but I’ve started using it. What happens with a Perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You’ve seen another one--

QUESTION

Yeah, yeah I know these.

BRANDON SANDERSON

You know which one I’m referencing?

QUESTION

Yes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That you didn’t see a Pool from?

QUESTION

Oh wait… [Laughter]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, he knows, so… We’ll move on.

QUESTION

Why??!! [general protest, laughter]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

ARGENT

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but Honor’s Perpendicularity moves.

QUESTION

Woah...so...Highstorm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[hems and haws]

QUESTION

So, I don’t know if this is a RAFO sort of question, but you call them Perpendicularities, will we see this sort of thing created?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, Perpendicularities can be created. You’d need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini Perpendicularity and slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

QUESTION

So it’s just a question of skill, not a question of--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. It’s hard to pull off...but some of the powers are built to do it.

So understandably a possible theory is that it's in the Highstorms. But I just read something I'd never seen before, a scene from between WoR and Oathbringer that Brandon published on the Tor website back in 2014. 

Quote

Stormlight was precious here. It was power, currency, even—perhaps—life. Without it, she’d be defenseless.

“Can I use this Light to return?” she asked him.

“Here?” He shook his head. “No. We must find a stable junction. Honor’s Perpendicularity, perhaps, though it is very distant. But Jasnah, the grinders will soon be!”

So the Highstorm containing the perpendicularity doesn't make sense to me. The Highstorms sweep across Roshar pretty fast, so there's no way they could catch up with it, there's no reason to go north or south because it covers the continent. For it to be very distant, and them to walk to it, it must be in a relatively set location at the time of these events, not sweeping across the continent. So to me that largely rules out the Highstorm.

Now, we know from here that Jasnah, after escaping the Cognitive Realm, ended up in the Unclaimed Hills.

Quote

QUESTION

In the Epilogue of Words of Radiance, Jasnah is talking with Hoid and Hoid mentions a nearby village. Is it Hearthstone?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No it is not. Good question. Because they're out in the Unclaimed Hills somewhere. They're not even in Alethkar.

So I know Jasnah elsecalled to that location, that's made clear by her means of arrival, Hoid and WoBs. We know that Jasnah could not Elsecall directly out of the Cognitive Realm without getting to a 'juncture' (a perpendicularity). Perhaps that just as she didn't have enough Stormlight (it would surprise me if one can only Elsecall near a perpendicularity as that would make it a pretty useless power). So to me, the reason they need to find a juncture is presumably to either access more Stormlight (as we know the Cognitive Realms is Stormlight-poor), or more likely because with the amount she has she needs to be much closer to a place where the boundaries between the realms are particularly thin.

We also know from WoR that she didn't mean to Elsecall to exactly where she was, because she was trying to escape.

Quote

Wit strolled up beside her. "You realize we're at least a week away from civilization. Did you need to Elsecall this far out in the middle of nowhere?".

"I was somewhat pressed at the time of my escape. I'm lucky to be here at all".

But as she's in the Unclaimed Hills, which are between Alethkar and the Shattered Plains (well, part of them anyway), I'm assuming she didn't Elsecall to somewhere completely random on Roshar, but just to somewhere pretty near the point that she left the Cognitive Realm. This would also make sense given the Unclaimed Hills are a kind-of appropriate distance from where she entered the Cognitive Realm, given Ivory said the perpendicularity is very distant, and given we know it took her a long time from  entering the Cognitive Realm before arriving back in the Physical Realm - but it's not like she's on the other side of Roshar. For reference, here's the Roshar map.

So, on these bases, and admitting there are quite a few assumptions there, I think at the time of her escape, she needed to get to Honor's perpendicularity, which was in or near (relative to Roshar) the Unclaimed Hills. Add to that the idea that Honor's perpendicularity was in that location for long enough for Ivory to say they needed to get there (I think that would be difficult if it was moving constantly over a large distance). The question is then why would it be there, as opposed to anywhere else in Roshar, at that time.

Which brings me to my idea. Part of the Unclaimed Hills is wedged right between Alethkar and the Shattered Plains. Basically it's all largely north, but part is north-west, between the two regions. What is going on in the Shattered Plains at the time, that is going on a lot less everywhere else in Roshar? The active use of investiture, through both some live-spren surgebinding and of course through quite a bit trapped-spren surgebinding (in the form of many of the world's Shardblades in use there).

So my theory is that Honor's perpendicularity moves around Roshar towards the place that has the most active use of investiture. Not in the form of spren, they are everywhere (except Shinovar) but their investiture is not being used, nothing is being drawn from the Spiritual Realm. Same with the Highstorms, where investiture can be trapped by spheres but is not actually being drawn on. I think when Stormlight is being drawn from the Spiritual Realm, Honor's perpendicularity basically gravitates towards it. The reason the perpendicularity isn't in the Shattered Plains is because that's not the only place investiture is being used. Most of it is there, but there is still some Shardblades and Shardplate being used, and drawing investiture through the Stormlight trapped in Spheres, in other parts of Roshar, particularly Alethkar. Which drags the perpendicularity slightly further west, and a little north. Into the Unclaimed Hills (or thereabouts).

So that's that. I simply couldn't find enough evidence on this subject to be at all confident about this theory. And there are a number of assumptions. But I feel it has some backing and I wanted to put it out there for thoughts, corrections, dismantling or perhaps support.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Ookla the Indivergable

[AeonaRin]

Yeah, I never believed Honor's perpendicularity was in the Highstorms and for the same reason you mentioned - Jasnah's chapter. But I didn't have any ideas for an alternative. So have my upvote because your theory is at least something

I'm awaiting the discussion. 

[Pagerunner]

One more quote for you:

Quote

Q: Both times when Kaladin has had to survive a Highstorm outside, he finds himself in an area of unnatural calm. Is the eye of the Highstorm not entirely in the physical realm? I've had this feeling that the calm area pulls people into Shadesmar, at least a little…

 

A: This is not 100% physical realm.

Source

I'm on the fence. On one hand, the eye of the Highstorm is indeed a weak point in the boundary between realms. On the other hand, Brandon does imply that Jasnah uses Honor's perpendicularity in WoR. But back to the first hand, Elsecallers don't need a Perpendicularity to transition, so maybe Jasnah just got a hold of some Stormlight.

It's an interesting mystery. I have some off-the-wall ideas I've posted elsewhere about Honor's perpendicularity being stationary on another planet. We'll see what we get come November, when Jasnah is back with the crew. 

[Overlord Jebus]

What if the Perpendicularity is linked somehow to the Oathgates and activating one temporarily moves the Perp to that gate, allowing for travel?

[Spoolofwhool]

35 minutes ago, overlordjebus said:

What if the Perpendicularity is linked somehow to the Oathgates and activating one temporarily moves the Perp to that gate, allowing for travel?

If that were the case then she would've appeared in the Shattered Plains or Urithru as I think she would've had to cross over very close to the perpendicularity.

[Andy92]

Potentially useful quote from The Way of Kings (Chapter 2):

Quote

This far into the Unclaimed Hills, the highstorms were incredibly powerful. 

Maybe it's not a general highstorm that causes the Perpendicularity, but a strong concentration of a highstorm's power? I do think your theory of high Investiture concentration near the Perpendicularity has merit, but maybe it's something that the strength of a highstorm can play a factor in. This might also explain why Kaladin briefly slips in and out of the Cognitive Realm while he was tied up in a highstorm. 

[Overlord Jebus]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

If that were the case then she would've appeared in the Shattered Plains or Urithru as I think she would've had to cross over very close to the perpendicularity.

I agree she's a bit far away for it to be something that simple. Maybe it draws a line between the two places currently being traversed and she ended up somewhere along that line.

[Argent]

5 hours ago, Extesian said:

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

ARGENT

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but Honor’s Perpendicularity moves.

So, to give you a little context, I was (mis)remembering that "deleted scene" you referenced above, the one where Jasnah gets trapped in Shadesmar for a bit. I remembered that the scene referenced Honor's Perpendicularity and Jasnah's need to reach it in order to leave, but I (perhaps incorrectly) thought that it is the way she actually left. Brandon's reply is also not entirely useful because it could be interpreted both ways - "Yes, Jasnah needed a Perpendicularity to escape, but Honor's moves so she couldn't use that one" or "Yes, Jasnah needed a Perpendicularity, but Honor's moves so she had to wait until it was in a good spot for her". 

I think I have to agree with you that my original guess - that Honor's Perpendicularity travels with the highstorms - was probably wrong. There are some ways I could rationalize it (maybe it is fairly stationary but highstorms passing through it drag it a little), but I don't think that would be profitable.

5 hours ago, Extesian said:

So I know Jasnah elsecalled to that location, that's made clear by her means of arrival, Hoid and WoBs. We know that Jasnah could not Elsecall directly out of the Cognitive Realm without getting to a 'juncture' (a perpendicularity). Perhaps that just as she didn't have enough Stormlight (it would surprise me if one can only Elsecall near a perpendicularity as that would make it a pretty useless power). So to me, the reason they need to find a juncture is presumably to either access more Stormlight (as we know the Cognitive Realms is Stormlight-poor), or more likely because with the amount she has she needs to be much closer to a place where the boundaries between the realms are particularly thin.

I think I am on board with all of this.

Actually, I think I am on board with a lot of the rest. Amusingly, the only thing I don't like is your conclusion - the analysis is quite fine. I'll have to see if I can come up with something I am happier with.

[Andy92]

Any way that the Perpendicularity follows the current location of the Stormfather? 

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Andy92 said:

Any way that the Perpendicularity follows the current location of the Stormfather? 

Only thing I can think of against that right now is that when asked about how far away a Radiant can be from their Spren, Brandon said that the Stormfather is a bit more omnipressant than normal Spren. Omnipresant defintition 2 is: (of God) present everywhere at the same time.

So.. your idea is a bit of a maybe/maybe not situation. It's still a good idea though, especially after Honor splintered.

[Andy92]

@The One Who Connects I actually searched over at Theoryland after posting that comment and found the same thing as you, so it might be doubtful if the Stormfather is "everywhere." Maybe it could still be something along the lines of "where the Stormfather is investing most of his energy" or something like that. 

[Bcknight2]

Do we know for sure that the perpendicularity moves in the cognitive realm? 

If not, here's my theory:

In the cognitive realm the perpendicularity exists at a stable location, the storm origin.

In the physical realm there is a large concentration of investiture at the origin. When a highstorm passes through the origin it sucks up a lot of investiture and carries it away from the origin. The physical location of the perpendicularity is not the origin or the highstorm, but the "center of mass" between those two large concentrations of investiture. Meaning that when the highstorm first leaves the origin the perpendicularity is closer to the storm, but as it loses investiture and investiture flows back to the origin, the location shifts closer to the origin.

This could explain how Ivory referred to the perpendicularity as "far away", how the perpendicularity moves, and why Jasnah may have appeared in the middle of nowhere rather than in a "shardpool" if she traveled through a perpendicularity.

[Argent]

13 minutes ago, Bcknight2 said:

Do we know for sure that the perpendicularity moves in the cognitive realm? 

If not, here's my theory:

In the cognitive realm the perpendicularity exists at a stable location, the storm origin.

In the physical realm there is a large concentration of investiture at the origin. When a highstorm passes through the origin it sucks up a lot of investiture and carries it away from the origin. The physical location of the perpendicularity is not the origin or the highstorm, but the "center of mass" between those two large concentrations of investiture. Meaning that when the highstorm first leaves the origin the perpendicularity is closer to the storm, but as it loses investiture and investiture flows back to the origin, the location shifts closer to the origin.

This could explain how Ivory referred to the perpendicularity as "far away", how the perpendicularity moves, and why Jasnah may have appeared in the middle of nowhere rather than in a "shardpool" if she traveled through a perpendicularity.

That's a clever idea, I think (and makes certain amount of sense), but I think it makes Ivory too technically correct. His words would not be untrue, but they don't feel like they convey this kind of meaning. I do like the idea of the Origin being a source of investiture, essentially, and the highstorm periodically picking up a bunch of it and redistributing it around the world.

[Fezzik]

Maybe that is what the clouds are in shadesmar. Investiture heading back to the "Sun", which is the Origin.

[+Extesian]

Thanks for the input all. With the Highstorm creating a thinness between the realms (and nb they're already thin on Roshar to begin with) maybe the Highstorm would be another 'junction' they could get through, though if so I think it would just be for thinness, I expect you couldn't get investiture from it because otherwise spren wouldn't be so starved of Investiture - they'd just all drink their fill each Highstorm. Brandon has referred to Stormlight being a 'lightbulb', to the Spiritual Realm. Perhaps if there was a Highstorm at the time they could have used that but the need to get to Honor's Perpendicularity indicates there wasn't one available, and I think supports the idea Honor's Perpendicularity isn't in the Highstorm. 

@Argent thanks for the feedback. I would have come to the same conclusion during the signing. It was only because I freshly read the Jasnah scene I realized the wording and context doesn't fit well. And my conclusion was the only part that was pure speculation so I agree that I don't like it so much myself. It was just an attempt to reconcile the information that was new to me, and I think it has flaws. But I'm glad it's promoting discussion of other places the Highstorm could be, and why it's there. I think the most important idea I had is that the Highstorm moves, but not constantly (or at least not quickly). And @Pagerunner I was a fan of the idea of it being on a moon or planet, but I think Ivory would struggle to recommend that as an option if that's the case. It would take a long time to get there if it was (if it was even possible to get there).

@Bcknight2 that's a really interesting idea about Highstorms picking up investiture from Origin. It's made me think of something. Jasnah was in the Cognitive Realm on land ie where it is water in the Physical Realm. So it would be a lot harder for them to get to somewhere that is land in the Physical Realm. That gives some credibility to the idea that the Perpendicularity was not in land at the time. They could have gotten through it there normally then elsecalled to the Unclaimed Hills. My problem with this is the same reason I figured that the Perpendicularity was near the Unclaimed Hills at the time - she was in a rush to escape, which shouldn't have been the case if she'd already gotten out of the Cognitive Realm and just trying to elsecall home. I got to the idea of it gravitating towards kinetic investiture by figuring it was near the Unclaimed Hills but maybe the idea has relevance even if it wasn't. 

But some interesting things to deal with there. How did they get to the Perpendicularity without Stormlight if it was on land? What exactly makes the walls between the realms thin at the Highstorm if not a Perpendicularity? (Though the Highstorm sucking up investiture at origin could do that). Hopefully more insights will help us iron this out. 

[Fezzik]

What about greatshells as perpendicularities? Same issues as highstorms for why she came out in the middle of nowhere, but that is the other theory I've seen.

[Thanatos]

Isnt there a WoB where he says the Highstorm where already on Roshar before the Shards got their? 

If so the Highstorm is of Uncle Andy (Adonalsium)

---

Edit.

Found it.

  

Quote

Here is a WoB stating the highstorms were there before Honor and Cultivation got to Roshar

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’ll tell you this. The highstorms predate [the shattering of Adonalsium], and there was a lot of natural evolution on Roshar resulting in a lot of what we have there.

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Thanatos

[Farnsworth]

I like this idea, but I'm pretty sure that perpendicularities are in Greatshells because

ED spoilers

Spoiler

"Old White Hair" who is likely Hoid jumped into one.

Since Hoid can't Elsecall so far as we know, and we know he didn't die, he must have managed to get out somehow, and the only way I can think of is a perpendicularity.

[Bcknight2]

@Figberts I prefer the semi-serious explaination provided in this post: 

That seems more believable to me, in a totally ridiculous Hoid way, than the greatshells being perpendicularities. 

The WOB in the original post states that perpendicularities are 1. large concentrations of Investiture, that are 2. particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards. I don't feel like greatshells adequately meet either requirement.

[Yata]

On 11/5/2017 at 3:25 AM, Figberts said:

I like this idea, but I'm pretty sure that perpendicularities are in Greatshells because

ED spoilers

  Hide contents

"Old White Hair" who is likely Hoid jumped into one.

Since Hoid can't Elsecall so far as we know, and we know he didn't die, he must have managed to get out somehow, and the only way I can think of is a perpendicularity.

This is really unlikely as Hoid explicity said that he "spent an year inside of a greatshell" and this is really aganist the idea he throwed himself in the beast to worldhop....It's possible he used the Greatshell to hide himself, or maybe as a way (or a backlash) to manipulate Fortune

Edited May 12, 2017 by Yata

[+Extesian]

Yeah as people have indicated, there are issues with the greatshell perpendicularity idea and I don't think Hoid's digestive adventure is enough to suggest they have them. I don't rule it out, with the kind of Investiture required to keep them from collapsing it's conceivable tiny perpendicularities could form but I have real doubts, and can't imagine Hoid spending so long in one when there are other ways out of Roshar.

Either way I couldn't believe that Honor's Perpendicularity would be in one, even if it does move. I concede it is possible, it fits the moving story, but I can't see why it would only be in one and it wouldn't make sense for it to switch. And of course all indications are that He only has one.

I'm curious about any other optiobs though for where it could be, why it would be in the ocean (which I increasingly think is possible) or otherwise why it would be around the Unclaimed Hills if not for my questionable 'gravitating-towards-kinetic-investiture' theory

[Djarskublar]

Well, I kind of head-canoned it that with the line between the Realms being so thin on Roshar, she just had to find somewhere where it was thin enough she could get out. The way Ivory was wording it implied to me that there are other 'junctions' than just 'perpendicularities.' I thought Ivory was saying 'we need to get somewhere you can get out of here, maybe Honor's Perpendicularity would be a good option, though it is far away.' My thought was that maybe there are other junctions, but they are like natural springs, and aren't always there when you need it. So Ivory was suggesting Honor's because it is at least stable, even though it is distant.

Something I would like clarification on @Argent. In that WoB is this sentence: "What happens with a Perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point." When he said that about creating perpendicularities, did his tone convey that he meant that they are all purely attuned to a Shard, or that it is easier to create one that is attuned purely? It can be read both ways, and you were obviously there to hear it.

And another note, this WoB was specifically talking about creating a perpendicularity. I don't think we need to just focus on Honor's perpendicularity. I think we need to figure out why there was one there at that time. It wasn't necessarily Honor's. It could have just been something natural, something some spren helped make, or something else entirely. On the other hand, this thread is supposed to be about Honor's perp, so maybe we just need to broaden the discussion on where/what it could be.

I subscribed to the Highstorm = Honor's theory, but you all have convinced me otherwise, so now I need to figure this out! My first idea is that the Origin is it, and it functions similarly to the Well, except that instead of just pooling, the power is dispersed into the Storm. That provides a pretty good outlet for the power broken-Honor is leaking, since I don't see how the spren actually tone down that power. There has to be a reason for the power entering the Storm, and that could explain it. That's the problem on Sel, no good outlet. I have some other ideas for where it could be, but they are more or less formless at the moment.

[Thanatos]

This is what i sent my little bro earlier.

 

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormlight

First part says;
'Stormlight is a form of Investiture brought by the Highstorms of Roshar.'

So if the Highstorms were there pre-shattering of Uncle Andy then the Highstorms are not of Honor. 

But Honor now controls them. No doubt from his investing in Roshar.

Its just not his Investiture (Stormlight).

Edited May 12, 2017 by Thanatos

[+Extesian]

Thanks for the input @Djarskublar, my main aim of the post was to establish, as much as possible, that Honor's Perpendicularity isn't in the Highstorms, and then throw up one alternative. I'm also very happy for the discussion to expand to other perpendicularities generally on Roshar though as I do agree with you that they may have just come through another one (not Cultivation's as we as good as know that's in the Hornearter peaks). With the realm boundaries on Roshar being thin I could definitely see other perpendicularities forming and Ivory leaves distinct room for that possibility.

But I agree junctions sounds like more, and I definitely still think the Highstorms may be one (or at least thin enough to count as a junction, if not a slide-in slide-out Shardpool). I also agree that Origin could be a likely option for such a juncture, or potentially Honor's Perpendicularity  (though the problem there is we have no indication that Origin moves).

And thanks @Thanatos, definitely the Highstorms predate the arrival of the Shards and they are invested now. However i don't believe we know for sure that they were invested by Adonalsium, they may have just been part of the ecosystem and subsequently invested by the Shards. Either way they're highly invested now, which probably explains the thin boundaries between the realms there. Whether or not they have a Perpendicularity is another matter. I'm fond of the idea they don't naturally have investiture, they pick it up each cycle from Origin. 

[Thanatos]

The Knights Radiant powers are from the Spren, of Honor and Cultivation. 

I see Stormlight as the metal of Mistborn. It powers the connection to the shards power.

If say Wax went to Roshar, Sel or the other planets and burnt the native steel he could still use allomancy.

I see the Highstorm as an Uncle Andy investiture.

Spren of Honor and Cultivation = Lerasium. (analogy)

One makes knights radiants the other mistborn.

Ones powered by stormlight the other metal. 

Metal is special in the cosmere for some unknown reason. Maybe an uncle andy reason.

(above are two texts i sent my bro earlier today as we have been talking about this interesting thread, ohh and if i have not said so yet good theory OP).

...

Edit.

Theres nothing to confirm Stormlight comes from Honor. We only know that Honor now controls the Highstorm. His 'metal' is spren which Brandon has confirmed is a type of metal.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Thanatos