[OB] Honor's Perpendicularity

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Theres nothing to confirm Stormlight comes from Honor. We only know that Honor now controls the Highstorm. His 'metal' is spren which Brandon has confirmed is

This seems to imply that stormlight is composed of Honor and Cultivation's investiture, at least in some part, currently. Being able to create a nahel bond spren, which is of Cultivation and Honor from stormlight indicates this.

Quote

DJARSKUBLAR

So, say you have a gold/gold Twinborn and they worldhop to Roshar and they study the magic and do the whole Khriss and Nazh thing for a while so that they know a lot about the magic, but they've also left themselves a lot of options with what they can do. So then they manage to pull up a gold shadow of them having actually become a Surgebinder and then kind of meld themselves with that shadow a bunch, could they change their Cognitive Identity enough so that they could, like, tap a lot of Gold and grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

DJARSKUBLAR

They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

BRANDON SANDERSON

They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

DJARSKUBLAR

So if they had Regrowth cast on them, would that do it?

BRANDON SANDERSON

hems and haws for a second.

DJARSKUBLAR

A really, really big Regrowth like in the middle of a Highstorm.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hmmm, this, you are getting to the realm of plausibility at that point. I still don't think gold is the way to do it. I think you just get all that Investiture. It would become sapient by you sticking a whole bunch of Investiture, and then you can bond to that. But it's not like people gain what you would have done. Does that make sense? That's just what's going to happen, is you're gonna, you can create a, potentially create a spren that way, but you are more likely to end up with something like Nightblood. But you could potentially create a spren, but I mean you're just gonna end up...

DJARSKUBLAR

So there are more optimal ways to do that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, go bond a spren. (evil grin of course)

DJARSKUBLAR

But you can't easily bond multiple, and if you did this you could maybe get multiple.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Nyeaaahhh... The spren still has to choose. If you want to be a Surgebinder, the choice is being made. You can't fake your way into it. Decision and Honor are too much a part of Surgebinding for you to be able to fake your way into that. Other magics you might be able to do that. Other magics that don't require, like, Surgebinding works because a piece of Honor or Cultivation or a mix has chosen you specifically. There is will from the actual Investiture involved in it in Roshar.

DJARSKUBLAR

Okay.

BRANDON SANDERSON

So it's not something you can cheat your way into, right. But cheating your way into Breath might be easier, right.

[Source]

 

[Thanatos]

Spoolofwhool,

Um not sure what your getting at here.

Highstorms existed befor Uncle Andy was shattered.

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormlight

First part says;
'Stormlight is a form of Investiture brought by the Highstorms of Roshar.'

So if the Highstorms were there pre-shattering of Uncle Andy then the Highstorms are not of Honor. 

But Honor now controls them. No doubt from his investing in Roshar.

Its just not his Investiture (Stormlight).

[Argent]

7 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Something I would like clarification on @Argent. In that WoB is this sentence: "What happens with a Perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point." When he said that about creating perpendicularities, did his tone convey that he meant that they are all purely attuned to a Shard, or that it is easier to create one that is attuned purely? It can be read both ways, and you were obviously there to hear it.

I neither remember, nor do I think I could interpret tone for you  The recording should still be available, however, so you can check the transcript document for AU Chicago for a rough timestamp, and then jump to that time in the audio.

[Spoolofwhool]

@Thanatos

I'm aware of that. However, i think that Cultivation and Honor have changed the composition of stormlight and highstorms since their arrival. Afterall, crem, a significant trait of highstorms which existed before Cultivation's arrival,  is influenced  by Cultivation now. I see no reason why stormlight couldn't have undergone a similar change. This would resolve the issue of being of a different shard that was brought up with regards to creating a spren. 

[Thanatos]

Spoolofwhool

And yet Stormlight plays the same role as metals in Mistborn.

Plus its never mentioned that Stormlight is of Honor.

Stormlight which powers both Honor and Cultivation powers via spren.

I see Stormlight as a kinetic energy of the Highstorms.

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Spoolofwhool

And yet Stormlight plays the same role as metals in Mistborn.

Plus its never mentioned that Stormlight is of Honor.

Stormlight which powers both Honor and Cultivation powers via spren.

I see Stormlight as a kinetic energy of the Highstorms.

Roshar and the high storms existed prior to Honor and Cultivation arriving, yes. By investing into an existing system though, their investiture would have colored the system.

Stormlight most likely existed in the storms prior, but assuming that multiple shards investing into the world left that system unchanged is presumptive.

Spren also existed on Roshar prior to the Shards, and yet we know that Spren are not just of Adonalsium. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Calderis

[Djarskublar]

@Thanatos That WoB that Spool cited above heavily implies that Stormlight is of Honor, Cultivation, or a mix of the two. I effectively asked if you could make a Surgebinding spren of a type we had already seen by using Preservation's power. The answer was no, since it didn't have the right Intent. On the other hand, Stormlight could potentially be used to do that. Spren that are involved in Surgebinding are composed of Honor/Cultivation, so if Light has the right Intent to make them, it stands to reason that Light is of them. Now, that's not a guarantee, but it makes it highly likely. I seem to recall a WoB that the Storm was always Invested, but it is more so now than it was before H/C moved in.

And I went and listened to that audio several times about creating a perpendicularity, and it seems like he was saying that they are easier to make if attuned to one Shard. It can still be taken either way easily, but I felt that it could be taken that way slightly (seriously, it's slight) more easily. Also, shortly thereafter he hems and haws over whether the Storm is Honor's perpendicularity. He didn't directly RAFO it, so that suggests to me that it's close, but not quite on the money and he didn't want to say more. In other words, something That gave me the immediate idea that maybe the Stormfather is it. It makes a kind of sense, but I'm not sure if it is entirely reasonable. So saying that it is the highstorm is close, but not technically correct. We also don't know if the Stormfather is always in the storm or not, but I don't think it's a silly presumption.

[Spoolofwhool]

On 5/12/2017 at 10:19 AM, Thanatos said:

Spoolofwhool

And yet Stormlight plays the same role as metals in Mistborn.

Plus its never mentioned that Stormlight is of Honor.

Stormlight which powers both Honor and Cultivation powers via spren.

I see Stormlight as a kinetic energy of the Highstorms.

Stormlight doesn't play the same role as metals though. In the Metallic Arts, the structure of the metals shapes the investiture, giving the specific effects. On the other hand, with stormlight, it is the source of investiture for processes which require it. 

And yes, while it hasn't been explicitedly stated that stormlight is of Honor and Cultivation, there is nothing which says it isn't currently, and the WoB I provided does point to that fact. 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Thanatos]

Spoolofwhool

Apologies i was quite drunk last night. I kept repeating myself for no reason. On a one way path. Lol.

Give me time to wake up and ill reread yours and others post and get back to you

[Thanatos]

Ok to ive had some time to think about the Stormlight.

I stll think that its an Uncle Andy investiture that is generated by the Highstorms as a byproduct. 

Ive read somewhere a WoB (but i cant track it down) that metal is special in the Cosmere. Spren are Honor and Cultivations god metal. 

And like allomancy you need...

From the coppermind:

'Energy does not come from one's own body, as happens in Feruchemy, but from Preservation himself.

Metal is not the source of Allomancy's power.^[8] Rather, metal is what is called a focus--a necessary component to a manifestation of Investiture (magic system), but not the source of the power itself. When an Allomancer burns a metal, that metal's specific molecular structure acts as a conduit to Preservation, and then the Allomancer is granted an ability corresponding to the metal, hence the metal "focuses" Preservation's power to the user.'

I see Stormlight as the 'focus' and a necessary component to a manifestation of Radiant powers, not the source of power. Just like metal for allomancy. 

I understand were just speculating. If someone gets the opportunity to ask Brandon if Stormlight is of Honor or Uncle Andy that would not only be awesome but will clear the issue up.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Ok to ive had some time to think about the Stormlight.

I stll think that its an Uncle Andy investiture that is generated by the Highstorms as a byproduct. 

Ive read somewhere a WoB (but i cant track it down) that metal is special in the Cosmere. Spren are Honor and Cultivations god metal. 

And like allomancy you need...

From the coppermind:

'Energy does not come from one's own body, as happens in Feruchemy, but from Preservation himself.

Metal is not the source of Allomancy's power.^[8] Rather, metal is what is called a focus--a necessary component to a manifestation of Investiture (magic system), but not the source of the power itself. When an Allomancer burns a metal, that metal's specific molecular structure acts as a conduit to Preservation, and then the Allomancer is granted an ability corresponding to the metal, hence the metal "focuses" Preservation's power to the user.'

I see Stormlight as the 'focus' and a necessary component to a manifestation of Radiant powers, not the source of power. Just like metal for allomancy. 

I understand were just speculating. If someone gets the opportunity to ask Brandon if Stormlight is of Honor or Uncle Andy that would not only be awesome but will clear the issue up.

There is much debate about the focus. The two most common threads I've seen for Roshar are Spren and Bonds. I'm a believer of the bonds theory, and I believe @Spoolofwhool a proponent of the Spren theory.

We know that Stormlight isn't the focus because it is an indeterminate fuel for all surgebinding. In the example of metal as Scadrial'focus, the molecular structure of the metal type is what determines which allomantic power is used by the fuel of Preservation's power. 

Stormlight is used to fuel all surgebinding, not determine which surge is able to be used, so we know it is not the focus in this instance. 

[Spoolofwhool]

37 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

I see Stormlight as the 'focus' and a necessary component to a manifestation of Radiant powers, not the source of power. Just like metal for allomancy

I see. Then do you have an explanation for the actual source of investiture for surgebinding as well as an explanation for how stormlight specifically shapes this power differently for each Knight Radiant? Otherwise, from how I see it if stormlight were the focus, then each Radiant holding stormlight would shape the power the same way, therefore resulting in no different powers across the different orders. 

@Calderis Is correct about my opinion on the matter.

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Thanatos]

Different spren give different powers. I assume you can only bond with 10 different spren. Given the 10 orders of radiants. (Excluding voidspren) 

Without the focus point (Stormlight) you dont get the powers of said bonded spren. Just a shard blade or whatever you want the spren to appear in the PR as. Like a majestic fork lol.

[Calderis]

@Thanatos your description places the Spren as the focus as they are the determining factor for the power. Stormlight is the same for all Radiants. If the Stormlight were the focus, it would only provide 1 power and there would need to be something else for each individual power, like how there is a different metal for each power in Allomancy. 

[Thanatos]

Calderis

Not necessarily. The spren gives you connection to use Honor or Preservation investiture. The type of spren gives you the potential abilities. 

Stormlight powers said abilities. 

 

 

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Not necessarily. The Spren gives you connection to use Honor or Preservation investiture. The type of Spren gives you the potential abilities. 

Stormlight powers said abilities.

What you just said is either 1) The "Type of Spren" is the Focus, or 2) Nothing mentioned in your statement is the Focus.

• Stormlight is out because it powers said abilities. Preservation technically powers your Allomantic abilities, not the Metal.
• Spren on it's own gives you the connection to power(Like Lerasium does, and Lerasium isn't the Focus)
• The Type of Spren equates to the Type of Metal, which is a Focus and they both determine what power(s) you get

That is all you mentioned, and exactly what it implies. Thus, Calderis's statement is still more or less correct: "Your description places the Spren as the focus as they are the determining factor for the power."

[Thanatos]

No spren is like Larasium. It gives you the connection to the shards investiture. 

Lerasium gives powers of a Mistborn.

Lerasium alloys give a specific power.

Spren (depending on its type) gives a specific Surgebinding power.

Metal is the focus of Lerasium.

Stormlight is the focus of Surgebinding.

The metal/stormlight runs out and they cannot access the shards power/investiture.

[The One Who Connects]

26 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

No Spren is like Lerasium. It gives you the connection to the shards investiture. 

From your prior post:

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

The Spren gives you connection to use Honor or Preservation investiture.

While it may be the side effect, this is exactly what Lerasium does. Thus, all Nahel Spren are like Lerasium in this regard.

Burning Lerasium increases your connection to Preservation, making you Mistborn in the process (or a stronger one if you were already a Mistborn)
Bonding Nahel Spren increases your connection to H/C, making you a Surgebinder in the process

26 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Lerasium gives powers of a Mistborn.

Becoming Mistborn is a side effect of increasing the connection to Preservation, which is a side effect of Burning Lerasium(IIRC, the main effect is an Allomantic power, like what Atium's got) Becoming Mistborn via Lerasium is a side effect of a side effect, and not really part of the discussion for that reason

---

26 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Metal is the focus of Allomancy.

Stormlight is the focus of Surgebinding.

The Metal/Stormlight runs out and they cannot access the shards power/investiture.

Stormlight is a Mists analogue though, lacking the "filter" that a Focus provides

The "running out or fuel" for a Focus is a non-equivalent comparison. Commands, the Focus on Nalthis, don't run out of power like Metals do.

Edited May 14, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Calderis]

@Thanatos the main problem here is your arguing a predefined term as something it's not, because your seeing the word focus for what it's common usage is, and not for it's predefined realmatic usage. 

Metal is the focus for Scadrial, and shapes the power of Preservation into the applicable allomantic power. 

Commands on Nalthis determine what Breath, the Stormlight analog there, makes an awakened object do. 

Under that predetermined usage of the word focus, Stormlight as the fuel for surgebinding, cannot be the focus. The focus is what will determine the way that Stormlight, the investiture, manifests. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Calderis

[Thanatos]

Metal powers the connection. Without it you have no powers. Its the conduite to Preservations investiture.

Think of it like this:

Person - Fuel - Access to Shards investiture (aka ability).

Elend - Metal - Lerasium. 

Kaladin - Stormlight - Spren.

Vasher - Colour from nearby objects - Breath.

For a person to gain the ability they need to first have the access to the investiture. Then they need the fuel to use the ability they gain. 

Mistborn or Mistings can still use metal from other planets.

With Breath, if theres no colour around, things like awakening would not work. Colour is the fuel.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Thanatos

[Spoolofwhool]

I'm pretty sure it's breath that is the fuel for awakening, which is why breath runs out eventually. Colour is just some side effect of the process which is consumed, like water on Taldain or heat on Roshar. 

Furthermore, the intermediary is suppose to shape the power. Colour doesn't. Whichever colour is consumed doesn't change the outcome of the awakening, unlike the command. 

[+Extesian]

Thanatos the point is that, yes, the spren gives access to Investiture, like Lerasium, but that with Scadrial that alone lets the allomancer access investiture from an external source. With Roshar it's different, Stormlight is then needed as an intermediate way to access the external investiture. It's referred to as a lightbulb to the Spiritual Realm. A focus is the thing that determines the way that investiture is used. So on Scadrial once you're an allomancer the way the investiture is used is determined by the metal you burn. On Roshar, the Stormlight does not choose the way investiture is used, it provides access to the investiture. The thing that determines the way it is used (the focus), the thing that determines whether you lightweave or change gravity bonds or soulcast things, is either the TYPE of spren (inkspren, honorspren etc) or the type of bond to that spren. If it's the type of spren, the spren is both the equivalent of lerasium and the focus. But any nahel bond is the lerasium equivalent, the particular spren that bond is with is the focus.

For other systems the focus is your own willpower, you choose how the investiture is used (awakening for example).

And you should probably make a new thread if you want to discuss this further, my original post here has been derailed a fair bit, I want it to be about perpendicularities on Roshar more specifically

Edited May 14, 2017 by Extesian

[The Technovore]

(sorry to derail but)

I just love that we're calling god "Uncle Andy" now.

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by The Technovore

[Thanatos]

As per the coppermind:

'Furthermore, color is drained from nearby objects as fuel for the Awakening process. This can manifest, for example, as a red scarf being bleached grey. The Breaths can be recovered from the Awakened object (in some cases), but the color drain is permanent.'

colour is the fuel.

Edit.

Apologies for derailing the thread. 

Also Uncle Andy is a term my little bro came up with. He got tired of say Adonalsium all the time so shortened the name for ease during conversations.

2nd edit.

Last one sorry.

As per coppermind for Surgebinding:

'In addition to being fuel for Surgebinding, Stormlight...'

so its confirmed that;

1. Metal is fuel for Mistborns.

2. Stormlight is fuel for Surgebinding.

3. Colour is fuel for BioChromatic.

The Dor is different as the shards are trapped in the CR. We dont know how it worked prior to Dominion and Devotions shattering.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Thanatos

[Yata]

33 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

As per the coppermind:

'Furthermore, color is drained from nearby objects as fuel for the Awakening process. This can manifest, for example, as a red scarf being bleached grey. The Breaths can be recovered from the Awakened object (in some cases), but the color drain is permanent.'

colour is the fuel.

Breath are slowly consumed in Awakening.

The Color seems to be an extra you Need to performe the Breath trasfert (like the Heat when you trasfert Stormlight).

What you have to understand is that: Breath, Stormlight, Mists, Dor and other things are Simply amount of Investiture. More precise, they are Kinetic Investiture....every One of them could fuel every magic system with the right "trick". They could have different proprierties for the Shard's Investiture they are made from...but they are mainly the same thing.

You could in theory, fueling Surgebinding with Breath or also with the Mists or with the Preservation's stream you gain from burning a metal. It Will be hard like Hell...but you could do It.

All this kinetic Investitures act as fuel for magic, you could not generate Energy/Power from nothing...the magic (at least the end positive ones) needs a source of power to act.

The Focus instead It's something that "shape" the effect the magic has. You could think to It as an interface.

It's the "man in the middle" between the fuel and the effect.

The Nalthis' focus is Command and the Breath thanks to the Command is imprinted with the right Cognitive Aspect to Place upon the target.

Similary the metal is the Filtrer for the Preservation's Power to be traslated into an effect.

Or the Form is the way a simple kinetic Investiture like the Dor turns into an effect.

 

I suggest to avoid to put the lerasium in the discussion as It adds only confusion without explain nothing...as the Lerasium is not a core part of the Metallic Arts at all.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Yata