The Art of Game Creation

[Straw he/him]

42 minutes ago, TJ Shade said:

Hmm yeah, voting sounds good. Though I could do a mix of both, because I still need to have a single originator for the attack, because if not, elim kills would be invisible to target scans. So, voting to determine the target, and a random elim who voted for the target to be the attacker? 

Yeah, that'd make sense. Announcing the result of the vote to all the voters would also be good, since that allows them to get a better idea of who might be on their team.

[Ashbringer he/him]

So of course I failed to put this in the proper thread, so here we are. I had an idea for a Roshar game that could be cool to pull off, probably a LG. I know I’m too new at this to be a GM (for now...) but helping someone make this game take off would be really fun, and perhaps let me co-GM with someone more experienced.

Synopsis:

Spoiler

After the events of Oathbringer, Szeth and his cohort (Elims) infiltrate the “corrupt” Shin High Council (Village) with the intent on removing them from power and gaining control of their seven remaining Honorblades. Two “guest stars” have also arrived in Shinovar, bent on using the chaos to their own will.

Instead of using Radiants (save for Szeth and perhaps a Kaladin role), players will carry Honorblades that grant them Surges, which can be passed around, Willed to players in case of lynching, taken from kills, and “retrieved” by Stone Shamans. 

I’d have to change some surges (particularly Gravitation, as it’s only in Elim hands), but I like the perpetuating roles. Depending on player quantity, some Honorblades may not be used. Players can hold multiple Honorblades, but they only get a set amount of Stormlight (probably the 2 charges every 3 turns) to use the Surges they provide.

 

Elim Roles: Szeth (Radiant, Gravitation, Nightblood?), Kaladin (Radiant, Gravitation, Adhesion), Rogue Honorblade Bearer(s), Vanilla. Have an Elim kill. Szeth’s Cohort wins if they reach parity OR control all the Honorblades at the end of any turn.

Village Roles: Honorblade Bearer(s), Stone Shamans (can scan for and steal Honorblades), Vanilla. The Shin High Council wins if they kill all of Szeth’s Cohort.

Secrets: Secrets! Win if they reach their individual secret goals, but their “win” will probably not end the game. May have a kill.

 

^ The premise is a little risky because it’s a scenario that will likely come about in Stormlight 4 or 5, but if it’s advertised as a  hypothetical I think it’s fine.

... tada!

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

17 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

So of course I failed to put this in the proper thread, so here we are. I had an idea for a Roshar game that could be cool to pull off, probably a LG. I know I’m too new at this to be a GM (for now...) but helping someone make this game take off would be really fun, and perhaps let me co-GM with someone more experienced.

Synopsis:

  Hide contents

After the events of Oathbringer, Szeth and his cohort (Elims) infiltrate the “corrupt” Shin High Council (Village) with the intent on removing them from power and gaining control of their seven remaining Honorblades. Two “guest stars” have also arrived in Shinovar, bent on using the chaos to their own will.

Instead of using Radiants (save for Szeth and perhaps a Kaladin role), players will carry Honorblades that grant them Surges, which can be passed around, Willed to players in case of lynching, taken from kills, and “retrieved” by Stone Shamans. 

I’d have to change some surges (particularly Gravitation, as it’s only in Elim hands), but I like the perpetuating roles. Depending on player quantity, some Honorblades may not be used. Players can hold multiple Honorblades, but they only get a set amount of Stormlight (probably the 2 charges every 3 turns) to use the Surges they provide.

 

Elim Roles: Szeth (Radiant, Gravitation, Nightblood?), Kaladin (Radiant, Gravitation, Adhesion), Rogue Honorblade Bearer(s), Vanilla. Have an Elim kill. Szeth’s Cohort wins if they reach parity OR control all the Honorblades at the end of any turn.

Village Roles: Honorblade Bearer(s), Stone Shamans (can scan for and steal Honorblades), Vanilla. The Shin High Council wins if they kill all of Szeth’s Cohort.

Secrets: Secrets! Win if they reach their individual secret goals, but their “win” will probably not end the game. May have a kill.

 

^ The premise is a little risky because it’s a scenario that will likely come about in Stormlight 4 or 5, but if it’s advertised as a  hypothetical I think it’s fine.

... tada!

If you sign up for an LG now, you'll probably have played enough games to run one by the time your turn comes up. The LG signup list shows 11 games already allocated, though skipping ahead is common.

What kind of abilities would you give to surges? They're not usually the same across Stormlight games.

I had a game idea with this premise with needlessly broken mechanics, but maybe there's salvagable elements you can use.

[Straw he/him]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

So of course I failed to put this in the proper thread, so here we are. I had an idea for a Roshar game that could be cool to pull off, probably a LG. I know I’m too new at this to be a GM (for now...) but helping someone make this game take off would be really fun, and perhaps let me co-GM with someone more experienced.

Synopsis:

  Reveal hidden contents

After the events of Oathbringer, Szeth and his cohort (Elims) infiltrate the “corrupt” Shin High Council (Village) with the intent on removing them from power and gaining control of their seven remaining Honorblades. Two “guest stars” have also arrived in Shinovar, bent on using the chaos to their own will.

Instead of using Radiants (save for Szeth and perhaps a Kaladin role), players will carry Honorblades that grant them Surges, which can be passed around, Willed to players in case of lynching, taken from kills, and “retrieved” by Stone Shamans. 

I’d have to change some surges (particularly Gravitation, as it’s only in Elim hands), but I like the perpetuating roles. Depending on player quantity, some Honorblades may not be used. Players can hold multiple Honorblades, but they only get a set amount of Stormlight (probably the 2 charges every 3 turns) to use the Surges they provide.

 

Elim Roles: Szeth (Radiant, Gravitation, Nightblood?), Kaladin (Radiant, Gravitation, Adhesion), Rogue Honorblade Bearer(s), Vanilla. Have an Elim kill. Szeth’s Cohort wins if they reach parity OR control all the Honorblades at the end of any turn.

Village Roles: Honorblade Bearer(s), Stone Shamans (can scan for and steal Honorblades), Vanilla. The Shin High Council wins if they kill all of Szeth’s Cohort.

Secrets: Secrets! Win if they reach their individual secret goals, but their “win” will probably not end the game. May have a kill.

 

^ The premise is a little risky because it’s a scenario that will likely come about in Stormlight 4 or 5, but if it’s advertised as a  hypothetical I think it’s fine.

... tada!

As Devotary said, the abilities and Stormlight mechanics for LG13/LG67 aren't necessarily the standard surge abilities and won't fit every game perfectly. If you want surge ideas, here's a list of other games that had some:

• MR2 (Gravitation (three versions), Division, Progression, Illumination)
• MR19 (Adhesion, Abrasion, Progression, Illumination, Transformation (two versions), Transportation, Tension)
• LG30 (Adhesion, Division, Abrasion, Illumination (two versions), Transportation (two versions), Cohesion)
• QF25 (Illumination, Transportation, Cohesion)

You can also come up with your own surge ideas or ask other people here for their ideas.

Once you get a more solid list of rules, I'll comment on that, but it looks good so far!

As for premise, don't worry about that.  We've had Mistborn Era 4 games and other hypotheticals.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Straw

[Ashbringer he/him]

Hmm. Let me see. The problem is Gravitation is only in Elim hands, and Adhesion, Division, and Tension can only exist with one Honorblade apiece.

Adhesion: Roleblock a player. (Only in Kaladin + Bondsmith blade.)

Gravitation: Track a player to see their targets. (Only in Kaladin + Szeth.)

Division: Night kill. (Only in Dustbringer blade.)

Abrasion: Cancel all actions targeting you, in exchange for cancelling all your other actions this turn.

Progression: Protect a player from night kills.

Illumination: Protect a player from non-kill actions (roleblocks, vote manip, scans).

Transformation: Scan a player for Honorblade ownership or for alignment.

Transportation: Move a player’s vote, at the expense of canceling your own vote.

Cohesion: Redirect all actions performed by a player onto another player. (Only in Willshaper blade.)

Tension: Grant a player 2 Stormlight charges. (Only in Bondsmith blade.)

 

I was also thinking the two Radiants (perhaps a Village Radiant as well) could get extra Stormlight as a passive (3 instead of 2 every 3 turns?) and Szeth’s Nightblood could combine 3 charges plus the Elim kill to make the kill bypass any roleblocks/protection/evasion.

Gravitation, Transportation, and Cohesion need some work, but the rest seem alright.

[Straw he/him]

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Hmm. Let me see. The problem is Gravitation is only in Elim hands, and Adhesion, Division, and Tension can only exist with one Honorblade apiece.

Adhesion: Roleblock a player. (Only in Kaladin + Bondsmith blade.)

Gravitation: Track a player to see their targets. (Only in Kaladin + Szeth.)

Division: Night kill. (Only in Dustbringer blade.)

Abrasion: Cancel all actions targeting you, in exchange for cancelling all your other actions this turn.

Progression: Protect a player from night kills.

Illumination: Protect a player from non-kill actions (roleblocks, vote manip, scans).

Transformation: Scan a player for Honorblade ownership or for alignment.

Transportation: Move a player’s vote, at the expense of canceling your own vote.

Cohesion: Redirect all actions performed by a player onto another player. (Only in Willshaper blade.)

Tension: Grant a player 2 Stormlight charges. (Only in Bondsmith blade.)

 

I was also thinking the two Radiants (perhaps a Village Radiant as well) could get extra Stormlight as a passive (3 instead of 2 every 3 turns?) and Szeth’s Nightblood could combine 3 charges plus the Elim kill to make the kill bypass any roleblocks/protection/evasion.

Gravitation, Transportation, and Cohesion need some work, but the rest seem alright.

How many actions do people get each turn? Given the Bondsmith blade, I'm assuming at least two actions.

Hmm, so looking at these blades, here are my thoughts:

Dustbringer: Probably best used as a vigilante, rather than using it to dodge kills. This blade is probably the one that is most in need of possible balancing, due to how unbalanced the game would become if an eliminator managed to get it.

Edgedancer: This blade is basically just a healer who can self-protect. Not in need of any particular balance changes.

Truthwatcher: I don't see the Truthwatcher using Illumination much, since the chance of blocking a kill is a lot better. That basically just makes this blade a weaker Edgedancer. Pretty useful for balance if you feel that an Edgedancer would be too strong.

Lightweaver: I can only really see people using the scan on this one.

Elsecaller: As with the Lightweaver blade, I can only see people using the scan.

Willshaper: Redirecting is best for this one, since you can test for kills. For this blade, can you redirect someone from no action?

Bondsmith: Tension seems pretty strong, since you can give someone a total of four extra Stormlight charges. I'm assuming that they can't use it on themselves, since then they could give other people a total of eight extra charges.

So, my initial suggestions are:

• Watch out for the elims getting the Dustbringer blade.
• Make Transportation better. Maybe make Illumination also return a fake scan result, since really only an elim would have Illumination on them.
• Watch out for role duplicates. There are two healing blades and two scanning blades.
• The Bondsmith blade seems very strong with how much it can boost up a role. If I'm reading it, it could produce six kills/heals/scans/redirects depending on which blade it's paired with, which is very strong. I'd advise just making it a straight siphon (one to one instead of one to two).

[|TJ| he/him]

So... I think I went a little over-board.

MR##: Lode of Luthadel
Luthadel is besieged by the armies of Ashweather Cett and Straff Venture! They are here for the Lord Ruler’s rumoured Atium hoard, and they will not stop until the city is theirs! 

Factions:

Spoiler

• Venture Loyalists: Their wincon is to eliminate all of the Cett Opportunists and Straff Mercenaries.
• Cett Opportunists: They are one of the semi-eliminator factions. Their wincon is to outnumber the sum of the other two factions. They do not share a doc, but are given the identity of one of their team-mate. They have an eliminator kill each cycle.
• Straff Mercenaries They are one of the semi-eliminator factions. Their wincon is to outnumber the sun of the other two factions. They do not share a doc, but are given the identity of one of their team-mate. They have an eliminator kill each cycle.

Eliminator Team Mechanics:

Spoiler

• Each member of the faction is given the identity of a single member of their faction via their GM PM. For example: A will be given the identity of B, B will be given the identity of C, and so on until the last member is given the identity of A. 

Eliminator Kill Mechanics:

Spoiler

• Each cycle, Cett Opportunists and Straff Mercenaries are entitled to a kill.
• Each member of the semi-eliminator faction is to vote for a player to be killed. 
• The player with the highest votes is killed, and the kill is assigned to one of the players who voted for them. 
• If the vote is a tie, a random player sharing the tie is killed.
• If the player with the highest votes is a member of their faction, the player with the second highest votes is killed instead, and so on.
• The selected attacker’s normal action is cancelled and the elim kill takes the precedence.

Roles:

Spoiler

• Coinshot: You can burn steel and redirect an action on your target to a random player.
• Lurcher: You can burn iron and protect your target from attacks.
• Tineye: You can burn tin and follow your target to identify their target.
• Thug: You can burn pewter and survive one attack/lynch per game.
• Rioter: You can burn zinc and anger your target to increase their suspicion. Your target can only vote on the player they voted on in the previous cycle. If they don't, their vote is moved to the said player. Rioting cannot be used in C1.
• Soother: You can burn brass to calm down your target and Soothe away their suspicion. Your target cannot vote on a player they voted on in the previous cycle. If they do, their vote is cancelled. Soothing cannot be used in C1. 
• Smoker: You can burn copper and protect you and another player of your choice from being Seeked, Soothed or Rioted.
• Seeker: You can burn bronze to see the metal burned by your target.
• Terrisman/Terriswoman: You can learn a random fact about a random player each cycle. It could be the target of the player, the attacker of the player, or the action the player took. 

Faction-specific Roles:

Spoiler

• Vin: You can use all 8 basic allomantic metals, but can only burn one metal per cycle under normal circumstances. Check the next section for more. You cannot burn the same metal in consecutive cycles.
• Zane: You have 90% chance of killing your team-mates each cycle (I'm only half-joking ). You do not think you are sane, and as such, have no control over your actions. Each cycle, you burn a random metal but you get to decide your targets after learning the metal being burned. You can burn the same metal in consecutive cycles.
• Gneorndin Cett: You can use all 8 basic allomantic metals, but can burn only one metal per cycle under normal circumstances. You do not have access to either atium, or duralumin, or both. You cannot burn the same metal in consecutive cycles.

Mistborn-specific Actions:

Spoiler

• Atium: Once per game, a Mistborn can use atium to know all the attacks placed on them in the current cycle at the time they wish. They can then take an extra action to counter the attacks placed on them. Zane has control over burning atium, and the extra metal during this cycle. 
• Duralumin: Once per game, a Mistborn can use duralumin to boost an allomantic metal of their choice to affect two targets, instead of one. Cycles in which duralumin is burned are the only cycles in which 2 actions can be taken. Zane can learn the allomantic metal to be burned for the cycle, and then choose to burn duralumin.
• Cycles in which atium and duralumin are used are the only cycles with 2 actions.  

Basics:

Spoiler

• Day and Night turns are merged into a single Cycle. 
• Each Cycle lasts 48 hours.
• Players have one action per cycle (unless the player is a Mistborn burning duralumin or atium).
• PMs are closed permanently. 

Order of Actions:

Spoiler

• Coinshot
• Smoker
• Rioter, Soother
• Lurcher
• Eliminator Kill
• Tineye, Seeker, Terrisman

Questions: 
Thoughts on the new Rioter and Soother roles? They are fine.
Should the mistborn be given an extra action in the cycle they burn atium as well, to react for the information they receive? Yes.
Should Zane be able to select the metal which is boosted by duralumin? Give him the random metal for the cycle, then let him decide if he wants to use duralumin or not.
Are atium and duralumin over-powered? No.
Are the mistborn themselves over-powered? No.
Should I change the A-B B-C system of elim identity chain to A-B B-A chain in order to keep the PMs open? No.
Should I have a normal action for the person who happens to submit the elim kill as well? No.
How should the voting for the elim kills be revealed to the elims? If the vote is:
A (5) 
B (3)
C (2)
Here, do we reveal the identity of the players (A, B, C) the elims voted upon? Or just that “Player A had 5 votes and were attacked”? Reveal the killed player.
Are the team balanced or is the Cett team a bit weak due to the lack of a Mistborn? Add a faction-specific role or a Mistborn, or buff them during distribution.
Is the wincon fine being last team standing for all the factions? Nope, change it to make the elims win when they outnumber the sum of the other two factions. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by TJ Shade
Struck out resolved questions. Edited stuff. Added Gneorndin. Added OoA.

[Mat he/him]

First I'd like to say I would 100% play this.

24 minutes ago, TJ Shade said:

Questions: 
Thoughts on the new Rioter and Soother roles?
Should the mistborn be given an extra action in the cycle they burn atium as well, to react for the information they receive?
Should Zane be able to select the metal which is boosted by duralumin?
Are atium and duralumin over-powered?
Are the mistborn themselves over-powered?
Should I change the A-B B-C system of elim identity chain to A-B B-A chain in order to keep the PMs open? 
Should I have a normal action for the person who happens to submit the elim kill as well?
How should the voting for the elim kills be revealed to the elims? If the vote is:
A (5) 
B (3)
C (2)
Here, do we reveal the identity of the players (A, B, C) the elims voted upon? Or just that “Player A had 5 votes and were attacked”?
Are the team balanced or is the Cett team a bit weak due to the lack of a Mistborn?
Is the wincon fine being last team standing for all the factions? 

They seem fine, but I dunno if it would be a problem if the target player claimed just they were targeted. It could create some interesting paranoiac scenarios.

That seems like a good idea.

Yeah, but maybe the cycle in which duralumin is used is random.

No, for the reason that there are no killing allomantic roles. 

Nah, there's only one per faction, though I would suggest giving Cett something special, either an anonymous Mistborn or something else.

I dunno. Pm's are a good feature to have, and some elim connection would probably be good.

Don't they all submit a vote for an elim kill anyway?

Just that Player A had five votes and was attacked. Maybe not even the number of votes.

See above, I think Cett needs a faction-specific role.

As long as every faction has equal members. But then the 'eliminator' factions would have an advantage in knowing a member... maybe the 'village' faction does have more members...

Edited June 27, 2020 by Matrim's Dice

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

The village could be balanced out via better roles. I think that would work fine.

Also came up with a potentially broken strategy, but I’m not sure whether I should share it or try to exploit it

[Mat he/him]

16 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

The village could be balanced out via better roles. I think that would work fine.

Also came up with a potentially broken strategy, but I’m not sure whether I should share it or try to exploit it

You could tell TJ privately. 

[|TJ| he/him]

1 hour ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Yeah, but maybe the cycle in which duralumin is used is random.

Hmm, might not be feasible as Zane might die before that cycle. 

1 hour ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Don't they all submit a vote for an elim kill anyway?

Not the vote itself. One of the voter gets assigned as the killer for that cycle. Should I let them use their role action along with elim kill as well? 

As for the Cett faction, I was initially planning to have Allrianne Cett have a powerful vote manip role (original Rioting without self vote cancel) but I realised it might be too powerful. 

Thanks for the feedback, Matrim. 

25 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Also came up with a potentially broken strategy, but I’m not sure whether I should share it or try to exploit it

Please do reveal it Pyro. xD 

[Straw he/him]

For the Rioter and Soother roles, I assume the target is told they were Rioted or Soothed? If so, that seems fine, and it an interesting take on the Rioter/Soother.

Giving them an extra action to burn Atium/Duralumin seems like a good idea.

It'd probably make the most sense to have Zane be able to choose which cycle he burns Duralumin, but his pre-chosen metal is the metal that's boosted. That seems like the best way to go with the spirit of the role.

Atium and Duralumin don't seem particularly strong. If anything, BTW, how exactly are you handling Atium? You obviously can't be on 24/7 to update them as to who's attacking them. My suggestion for a possible Atium change would be to have them avoid all actions that targeted them, and learn which actions they would have been targeted with.

Mistborn aren't that strong, especially Zane.

The current chain system seems fine, but it's completely up to you. I could see either way working. The one disadvantage to pairs is that it means the elim teams have to have even numbers of players.

I would advise having their action be canceled.

Only have the top vote be revealed. Otherwise, if someone was skipped over, they would know that that person was probably a member of their team.

Cett is fine depending on role distribution and numbers, but you could always give them a Mistborn or some other unique role. 

For the eliminator factions, you could probably change it to having a majority over the other two factions combined. If Cett or Straff manages that, they'd have control of the lynch and would very likely win.

How exactly does Pewter work? Is it one kill/lynch for the whole game, or one per cycle? If it's the latter, I'd recommend changing it.

What facts can a Terrisman learn?

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

Okay, basically, the plan'd be for the elims to each vote for themselves C1. Then, if the vote count was revealed, they'd all know they're teammates.

I think the partners would work well, as you can balance the numbers of the two factions against the village to make sure it's even. It also would allow PMs, as well as enable a really interesting strategy.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Well. That one upped my Honorblade game proposal by a long shot... 

I think Cett having a Mistborn would be fine. He did have one in WoA, but he got himself killed by Vin in the second chapter or something. Just make it so he can’t use Duralumin or has some other handicap like Zane’s.

I’ve always wondered if Mistborn should be ruled as if they have limited metals. ie they can use all 8 abilities, and in Vin’s case start with them all, but only have 1 use of each ability until replenished somehow (randomly getting metals at the end of the cycle, perhaps). It would also let the Coinshot have a traditional kill role without turning Vin or Zane into Coinshot spammers. But it makes more sense in a game where metals are an actual resource. (All the game’s I’ve read through give the Village “Mistborn” a random Misting ability each cycle, which just seems weird. It works as a nice handicap on Zane, though.)

Other then that, looks great!

To Straw’s comments on my Surge ideas, I agree Transportation needs to change (probably to some redirect - I’ll think about it). I’m also not happy with Gravitation, more magic-wise than balance.

Illumination: I could extend to affecting the user and the target, or “portraying” a role instead of covering it (blade ownership or alignment) with the caveat that both you and the target appear the same way. (So an Elim could make a themself and a fellow Elim look Village, or make a real Villager and themself look Elim.) And perhaps lying about Roleblocks as well - telling the Roleblocker it went through while it actually fails? 

Tension: I didn’t want to duplicate actions, so you can’t use, say, Division twice in one turn. With that caveat I think it’s alright for a 1>2 endowment. However, whether there should be a cap on indistinct actions (ie if someone got multiple Honorblades, then got Tension boosted) I’m not really sure.

Lastly on the Dustbringer blade: I’m hoping if the Bearer got outed they would start using Abrasion, but that wouldn’t work forever, especially with Szeth’s Nightblood-boosted kill and with the Bondsmith blade possibly in the wrong hands.

I do want for the village to have some kind of kill so they can recover Blades and hunt after suspicions. But there isn’t really any solution for preventing the Elims from randomly killing the Dustbringer Honorblade Bearer N1 unless Honorblades no longer transfer on death. Perhaps a Stone Shaman could see who has Blades as of the end of the Day turn, as I’m hoping player passing Blades happens at least semi-frequently.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

48 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I’ve always wondered if Mistborn should be ruled as if they have limited metals. ie they can use all 8 abilities, and in Vin’s case start with them all, but only have 1 use of each ability until replenished somehow (randomly getting metals at the end of the cycle, perhaps). It would also let the Coinshot have a traditional kill role without turning Vin or Zane into Coinshot spammers. But it makes more sense in a game where metals are an actual resource. (All the game’s I’ve read through give the Village “Mistborn” a random Misting ability each cycle, which just seems weird. It works as a nice handicap on Zane, though.)

If you're looking for ideas on how to do a resource management thing with allomancy, I'm pretty sure it was in LG35. I can't remember the specifics, but you could get vials of different metals, and you could only use your ability if you had that metal.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

If you're looking for ideas on how to do a resource management thing with allomancy, I'm pretty sure it was in LG35. I can't remember the specifics, but you could get vials of different metals, and you could only use your ability if you had that metal.

I think I read one like it. I'm just saying it would be odd immersion-wise to have that vial limit on Mistborn and not Mistings.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I think I read one like it. I'm just saying it would be odd immersion-wise to have that vial limit on Mistborn and not Mistings.

It was a limit on everyone. Or are you specifically talking about Mat's game?

[Mat he/him]

3 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Mat's game?

*visible confusion*

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

*visible confusion*

Did I mix up who made which game? I don't even remember which game I'm talking about anymore.

[Ashbringer he/him]

TJ’s game.

I was just trying to suggest a way for Mistborn to be more player-controlled, and having Coinshots have kills, while also not turning the Mistborn into de facto Coinshots. More limited than random abilities.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 minute ago, Ashbringer said:

TJ’s game.

I was just trying to suggest a way for Mistborn to be more player-controlled, and having Coinshots have kills, while also not turning the Mistborn into de facto Coinshots. More limited than random abilities.

Yeah that makes sense. Also I think the game I was thinking of was LG34, not LG35. Maybe.

[Straw he/him]

6 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Yeah that makes sense. Also I think the game I was thinking of was LG34, not LG35. Maybe.

Funnily enough, both LG34 and LG35 had vial mechanics.

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

I’ve always wondered if Mistborn should be ruled as if they have limited metals. ie they can use all 8 abilities, and in Vin’s case start with them all, but only have 1 use of each ability until replenished somehow (randomly getting metals at the end of the cycle, perhaps). It would also let the Coinshot have a traditional kill role without turning Vin or Zane into Coinshot spammers. But it makes more sense in a game where metals are an actual resource. (All the game’s I’ve read through give the Village “Mistborn” a random Misting ability each cycle, which just seems weird. It works as a nice handicap on Zane, though.)

The Mistborn in LG3 worked that way.

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

To Straw’s comments on my Surge ideas, I agree Transportation needs to change (probably to some redirect - I’ll think about it). I’m also not happy with Gravitation, more magic-wise than balance.

Illumination: I could extend to affecting the user and the target, or “portraying” a role instead of covering it (blade ownership or alignment) with the caveat that both you and the target appear the same way. (So an Elim could make a themself and a fellow Elim look Village, or make a real Villager and themself look Elim.) And perhaps lying about Roleblocks as well - telling the Roleblocker it went through while it actually fails? 

Tension: I didn’t want to duplicate actions, so you can’t use, say, Division twice in one turn. With that caveat I think it’s alright for a 1>2 endowment. However, whether there should be a cap on indistinct actions (ie if someone got multiple Honorblades, then got Tension boosted) I’m not really sure.

Lastly on the Dustbringer blade: I’m hoping if the Bearer got outed they would start using Abrasion, but that wouldn’t work forever, especially with Szeth’s Nightblood-boosted kill and with the Bondsmith blade possibly in the wrong hands.

I do want for the village to have some kind of kill so they can recover Blades and hunt after suspicions. But there isn’t really any solution for preventing the Elims from randomly killing the Dustbringer Honorblade Bearer N1 unless Honorblades no longer transfer on death. Perhaps a Stone Shaman could see who has Blades as of the end of the Day turn, as I’m hoping player passing Blades happens at least semi-frequently.

The role/alignment change for both of them sounds good for Illumination. I don't think the roleblock one matters all that much, but it'd probably make more sense to just tell them that it failed.

Makes sense with Tension. Maybe make it so everyone can only use actions from one blade each turn? That way they can still use actions, they just can't use division+progression or something like that.

The Stone Shamans seem like a decent way to counterbalance that. So, as of now, I think the Stone Shamans can see who has a blade (but not which one) and can confiscate blades from a player?

[Ashbringer he/him]

Gotcha.

The problem with Stone Shamans is that if they can see who has Blades, they can narrow down Elims easily, or at least who Szeth and Kaladin are. I think they can hold Honorblades, but I doubt they would ever start with one. I’d have to decide if they could use their powers though.

Maybe Nightblood could scan as and get passed around like an Honorblade 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Ashbringer

[|TJ| he/him]

11 hours ago, Straw said:

For the Rioter and Soother roles, I assume the target is told they were Rioted or Soothed? If so, that seems fine, and it an interesting take on the Rioter/Soother.

Well.. not exactly what I had in my mind. So they would not be told that they were Rioted or Soothed. But if a player is Rioted, and votes for a different player next cycle, their vote moves automatically to the one they voted last cycle. Similarly, if a player is Soothed, and votes for the same player next cycle, the vote moves to a different player, possibly one chosen by the Soother. Is this bad? Should I just tell them they were Rioted or Soother?

11 hours ago, Straw said:

Atium and Duralumin don't seem particularly strong. If anything, BTW, how exactly are you handling Atium? You obviously can't be on 24/7 to update them as to who's attacking them. My suggestion for a possible Atium change would be to have them avoid all actions that targeted them, and learn which actions they would have been targeted with.

I hadn't thought of that xD. I mean, it's only one cycle, I probably could, but yeah, it would cause some problems. Avoid all actions on them seems a little too over-powered, as they already have a passive Thug Ability. My idea was that they could know what attacks they were facing, and prevent the most dangerous one. I'm planning to just give them the info of all attacks on them placed till the point they use Atium, and not update them after that. This makes them choose the optimum time to use atium during the cycle. This.. probably should have been a secret, seeing as now everyone will probably put in actions at the last moment  OR
They burn atium anytime in the cycle. I give them all the actions on them so far. I also give them the actions placed on them as and when I see them. They have an extra 10 minutes after the rollover to put in their actions. I think I prefer this one. 

11 hours ago, Straw said:

The current chain system seems fine, but it's completely up to you. I could see either way working. The one disadvantage to pairs is that it means the elim teams have to have even numbers of players.

Yeah, I dislike it because it will make it easier of the other teams to guess the no. of teammates remaining. Also, the pairs system will result in a elim kill votes also being in clusters of two, which I dislike. Could I have A-B B-C system and still have the PMs open? Surely they'll be paranoid that villagers will pull the "Hey I'm an elim, and I know you're an elim" move, so they'll likely distrust any alignment-claim, but I'm not sure. 

11 hours ago, Straw said:

Cett is fine depending on role distribution and numbers, but you could always give them a Mistborn or some other unique role. 

Planning on a hazekiller role who is immune to all types of allomancy, and can protect one player from all types of allomancy OR A Mistborn who does not have atium and/or duralumin, like Ash suggested. Which one is better? 

11 hours ago, Straw said:

For the eliminator factions, you could probably change it to having a majority over the other two factions combined. If Cett or Straff manages that, they'd have control of the lynch and would very likely win.

Hmm, I was thinking they couldn't completely control the lynch because they wouldn't know their teammates, but I suppose they would have deduced their teammates by then. Unsure about this one. 

11 hours ago, Straw said:

How exactly does Pewter work? Is it one kill/lynch for the whole game, or one per cycle? If it's the latter, I'd recommend changing it.

Yes, it's for the whole game, but I'm kinda rethinking the Thug role. With 2 (possibly 3?) Mistborn in the game, that's already 3 double lives. I'm not sure of the implications of any more double lives, probably the game will be too long? Is it fine?

11 hours ago, Straw said:

What facts can a Terrisman learn?

Basically the Archivist role from Striker's game. Target scan, inverse target scan, role scan. Not alignment scan though. 

9 hours ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Okay, basically, the plan'd be for the elims to each vote for themselves C1. Then, if the vote count was revealed, they'd all know they're teammates.

Well, for that, first of all, everyone should think like you.  Secondly, as the vote is a huge 1-1-1-1-1-1 (for example) tie, and everyone is an elim, no one would die, and the result of the vote will not be revealed. 

8 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I’ve always wondered if Mistborn should be ruled as if they have limited metals. ie they can use all 8 abilities, and in Vin’s case start with them all, but only have 1 use of each ability until replenished somehow (randomly getting metals at the end of the cycle, perhaps). It would also let the Coinshot have a traditional kill role without turning Vin or Zane into Coinshot spammers. But it makes more sense in a game where metals are an actual resource. (All the game’s I’ve read through give the Village “Mistborn” a random Misting ability each cycle, which just seems weird. It works as a nice handicap on Zane, though.)

Planning on making Vin unable to burn the same metal in two consecutive cycles. How about that? 
I think I was going through a game a while back. It had Metallurgists who could make different flakes of metal and send them to whoever they want. Not sure of the number, or the format of the game. Maybe Straw knows. 

Question. If the Seeker targets a Mistborn during the Cycle they burn atium/duralumin, do they see both the metals burn, or one at random, or just the basic allomantic metal? I'm leaning towards both.

Thanks for all your feedback.  I'll go edit the questions in the original post to which I have answers. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by TJ Shade

[Straw he/him]

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Well.. not exactly what I had in my mind. So they would not be told that they were Rioted or Soothed. But if a player is Rioted, and votes for a different player next cycle, their vote moves automatically to the one they voted last cycle. Similarly, if a player is Soothed, and votes for the same player next cycle, the vote moves to a different player, possibly one chosen by the Soother. Is this bad? Should I just tell them they were Rioted or Soother?

Mm, it's fine either way. Maybe just have Soother cancel their vote instead of moving it to make it a bit more in line with the power level of the Rioter.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

I hadn't thought of that xD. I mean, it's only one cycle, I probably could, but yeah, it would cause some problems. Avoid all actions on them seems a little too over-powered, as they already have a passive Thug Ability. My idea was that they could know what attacks they were facing, and prevent the most dangerous one. I'm planning to just give them the info of all attacks on them placed till the point they use Atium, and not update them after that. This makes them choose the optimum time to use atium during the cycle. This.. probably should have been a secret, seeing as now everyone will probably put in actions at the last moment  OR
They burn atium anytime in the cycle. I give them all the actions on them so far. I also give them the actions placed on them as and when I see them. They have an extra 10 minutes after the rollover to put in their actions. I think I prefer this one. 

So, the Mistborn always have Pewter? I thought that they only had their extra life when they burned Pewter during a certain cycle. In that case, ignore the avoid all actions bit, yeah. Preventing one attack does seem fine. I'd strongly suggest against making abilities time based if at all possible, considering how people have very different time zones and the GM can't be around all the time. There's also the fact that live action updates like you're talking about would allow people to narrow action takers down based on time zones. At the very least, let them queue their actions so they don't actually have to be around at that time, or set certain points where you'll take their action.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Yeah, I dislike it because it will make it easier of the other teams to guess the no. of teammates remaining. Also, the pairs system will result in a elim kill votes also being in clusters of two, which I dislike. Could I have A-B B-C system and still have the PMs open? Surely they'll be paranoid that villagers will pull the "Hey I'm an elim, and I know you're an elim" move, so they'll likely distrust any alignment-claim, but I'm not sure. 

If PMs were open, and I was an elim, here's the strategy I'd use:

Immediately PM the person whose name I know, tell them to PM the person ahead of them with a list of my name and their name with instructions to add their name to it and pass it on. This means that if I'm legitimate, the list will eventually loop back to me, and I'll just PM the finished list ahead, and they can confirm the validity of the list by checking to make sure that their partner is the person after them. This should allow the elim team to quickly and easily figure out who all of their members are.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Planning on a hazekiller role who is immune to all types of allomancy, and can protect one player from all types of allomancy OR A Mistborn who does not have atium and/or duralumin, like Ash suggested. Which one is better? 

The second idea sounds more interesting, since it's more of a parallel to Vin/Zane.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Hmm, I was thinking they couldn't completely control the lynch because they wouldn't know their teammates, but I suppose they would have deduced their teammates by then. Unsure about this one. 

I feel like once they have a certain majority, they'll just all post in the thread with the name of the person ahead of them.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Yes, it's for the whole game, but I'm kinda rethinking the Thug role. With 2 (possibly 3?) Mistborn in the game, that's already 3 double lives. I'm not sure of the implications of any more double lives, probably the game will be too long? Is it fine?

It's probably fine. Given the number of kills flying around, it'd probably extend the game by around one cycle.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Basically the Archivist role from Striker's game. Target scan, inverse target scan, role scan. Not alignment scan though. 

For the role scan, you'd probably want to make it so it could only return the basic allomantic roles, and couldn't tell if someone was Zane, Vin, or a Terrisman. I'd also suggest making the Terrisman a neutral role instead of confirmed village, since there isn't really much of a mechanical reason for it to be village only.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Well, for that, first of all, everyone should think like you.  Secondly, as the vote is a huge 1-1-1-1-1-1 (for example) tie, and everyone is an elim, no one would die, and the result of the vote will not be revealed. 

Hmm, wouldn't it make more sense to have it kill a random person outside the faction in that instance? I think the best way to resolve the votes would be to cancel all votes on people from the killing faction, which would mean that it would be a tie between all people who weren't in the faction.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Planning on making Vin unable to burn the same metal in two consecutive cycles. How about that? 
I think I was going through a game a while back. It had Metallurgists who could make different flakes of metal and send them to whoever they want. Not sure of the number, or the format of the game. Maybe Straw knows. 

That sounds fine.

That would be LG34:

Quote

Metallurgist: Each Night, you are able to obtain vials of a randomly determined amount of metals. Any player may order a vial of these metals via their GM PM, and you are given a list of who ordered your metals at the end of each Night Turn. Once per game, you may adulterate one vial of metals given to any player. A player that burns that vial is killed and their action is cancelled, unless they are protected by non-adulterated Pewter.

7 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Question. If the Seeker targets a Mistborn during the Cycle they burn atium/duralumin, do they see both the metals burn, or one at random, or just the basic allomantic metal? I'm leaning towards both.

It's probably fine to let them see that they were burning both metals. Since factions don't know who their Mistborn is, they probably wouldn't go after that person right away due to the risk. It'd also make a nice counterbalance, since if a faction's Mistborn dies, they know to attack any Mistborn they find.

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Gotcha.

The problem with Stone Shamans is that if they can see who has Blades, they can narrow down Elims easily, or at least who Szeth and Kaladin are. I think they can hold Honorblades, but I doubt they would ever start with one. I’d have to decide if they could use their powers though.

Maybe Nightblood could scan as and get passed around like an Honorblade 

Yeah, for the Stone Shamans, you could give them the ability to scan a player and see what blades they have, or maybe the ability to track each blade once and see who owns it. With Nightblood, probably just have it always stay within the eliminator faction. That way, while Szeth or Kaladin are alive, they can use it.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Straw